The Sabbath day and its origin.

[rthom7]

i don't know most of what you are talking about, but if you find a forum or chatroom where we can discuss openly the truth, i will glad you there joyfully , Yhwh willing, in Yeshua HaMaschiak's Life and GraCE !

Thanks brother

Shalom

 

[reba]

gah, we are debating. sorry

Thanks jasonc

 

[jasonc]

Thanks jasonc

I do intend to at least one time do the shabat, but it to me cant be a requirement under the new covenant. there is a mentioning of the shabat being for man. the reason jesus said that is because he was talking to jews. the idea that they were making the shabat something then other then it was had to be absolved(corrected). the reason moses mentions the weekly cycle is he was lead by the lord to do so and that he also had exodus experience first then he penned the torah. Abraham couldn't have called God , the YHWH SHALOM etc as he didn't KNOW God by that name!

 

[TOG]

1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts. 3 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. 4 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. Leviticus 23:1-4

Since all the dwellings were situated together, they didn't need to travel to remain in their dwellings, yet have a holy convocation.

They context in which this was given is the key.

Also the feasts were a time of gathering, the Sabbath was the time to remain in the dwelling, each man IN HIS PLACE.

Today's method of gathering on the Sabbath, completely violates the Sabbath as it was given in it's primary form and context.


This is what Jesus came to correct, the traditions of men.

The tradition of traveling to a location to gather for the Sabbath is a complete mockery and violation of God's word.

But it's no wonder, as Jesus said - Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


JLB

Next time you wait over 4 months before replying to a post, would you be so kind as to provide a link back to the post you are answering? You can do this simply by clicking "Reply", at that bottom right hand corner of the post you are replying to. It makes it easier for the person you are addressing to look it up and remember what it was that was being discussed.

Your insistence on a hyper-literal translation of "in all your dwellings" is totally illogical. Remember, these things were originally said to people who lived 3,500 years ago. They hadn't invented indoor plumbing yet. In Deuteronomy, we are told:

You shall have a place outside the camp, and you shall go out to it. And you shall have a trowel with your tools, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig a hole with it and turn back and cover up your excrement. Because the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp, to deliver you and to give up your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy, so that he may not see anything indecent among you and turn away from you. (Deu.23:12-14 ESV)
​

If they were not to go outside their dwellings, were they supposed to hold it in for 24 hours during the Sabbath? Or do you think God didn't quite think this all the way through? This problem can be solved very simply by understanding that "in all your dwellings" is not a commandment to stay inside your house, but is rather to emphasize that the commandment to hold a holy convocation on the Sabbath applies wherever you live. That would make sense, since they had been traveling through the wilderness and were about to enter the Promised Land. God was telling them that the rules didn't change. Also, when they would later move to other countries, they were to keep the Sabbath in the same way as they did in Israel and as they had done in the wilderness.

A convocation is an assembly or gathering of people. In this context, it is what we today would call a meeting, a church service or mass, depending on what denomination is holding the convocation. The command to hold a holy convocation requires that we gather together for a meeting.

It's really quite simple, but if you want to jump through a bunch of mental hoops to try to get the Scriptures to say something other than what they clearly mean and if you want to picture all of Israel suffering through the Sabbath because they're desperate to be allowed to go outside the camp to do their business, then go right ahead. I'll go with the much simpler and more logical explanation that God wants us to gather for corporate worship on the Sabbath, and that He doesn't mind us going to the bathroom that day.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

Next time you wait over 4 months before replying to a post, would you be so kind as to provide a link back to the post you are answering? You can do this simply by clicking "Reply", at that bottom right hand corner of the post you are replying to. It makes it easier for the person you are addressing to look it up and remember what it was that was being discussed.

Your insistence on a hyper-literal translation of "in all your dwellings" is totally illogical. Remember, these things were originally said to people who lived 3,500 years ago. They hadn't invented indoor plumbing yet. In Deuteronomy, we are told:

You shall have a place outside the camp, and you shall go out to it. And you shall have a trowel with your tools, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig a hole with it and turn back and cover up your excrement. Because the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp, to deliver you and to give up your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy, so that he may not see anything indecent among you and turn away from you. (Deu.23:12-14 ESV)
​

If they were not to go outside their dwellings, were they supposed to hold it in for 24 hours during the Sabbath? Or do you think God didn't quite think this all the way through? This problem can be solved very simply by understanding that "in all your dwellings" is not a commandment to stay inside your house, but is rather to emphasize that the commandment to hold a holy convocation on the Sabbath applies wherever you live. That would make sense, since they had been traveling through the wilderness and were about to enter the Promised Land. God was telling them that the rules didn't change. Also, when they would later move to other countries, they were to keep the Sabbath in the same way as they did in Israel and as they had done in the wilderness.

A convocation is an assembly or gathering of people. In this context, it is what we today would call a meeting, a church service or mass, depending on what denomination is holding the convocation. The command to hold a holy convocation requires that we gather together for a meeting.

It's really quite simple, but if you want to jump through a bunch of mental hoops to try to get the Scriptures to say something other than what they clearly mean and if you want to picture all of Israel suffering through the Sabbath because they're desperate to be allowed to go outside the camp to do their business, then go right ahead. I'll go with the much simpler and more logical explanation that God wants us to gather for corporate worship on the Sabbath, and that He doesn't mind us going to the bathroom that day.

The TOG​

the torah isn't often a heavy burden as some gentile ignorant Christians make it out to be. and im guilty of that.

 

[JLB]

Next time you wait over 4 months before replying to a post, would you be so kind as to provide a link back to the post you are answering? You can do this simply by clicking "Reply", at that bottom right hand corner of the post you are replying to. It makes it easier for the person you are addressing to look it up and remember what it was that was being discussed.

Your insistence on a hyper-literal translation of "in all your dwellings" is totally illogical. Remember, these things were originally said to people who lived 3,500 years ago. They hadn't invented indoor plumbing yet. In Deuteronomy, we are told:

You shall have a place outside the camp, and you shall go out to it. And you shall have a trowel with your tools, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig a hole with it and turn back and cover up your excrement. Because the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp, to deliver you and to give up your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy, so that he may not see anything indecent among you and turn away from you. (Deu.23:12-14 ESV)
​

If they were not to go outside their dwellings, were they supposed to hold it in for 24 hours during the Sabbath? Or do you think God didn't quite think this all the way through? This problem can be solved very simply by understanding that "in all your dwellings" is not a commandment to stay inside your house, but is rather to emphasize that the commandment to hold a holy convocation on the Sabbath applies wherever you live. That would make sense, since they had been traveling through the wilderness and were about to enter the Promised Land. God was telling them that the rules didn't change. Also, when they would later move to other countries, they were to keep the Sabbath in the same way as they did in Israel and as they had done in the wilderness.

A convocation is an assembly or gathering of people. In this context, it is what we today would call a meeting, a church service or mass, depending on what denomination is holding the convocation. The command to hold a holy convocation requires that we gather together for a meeting.

It's really quite simple, but if you want to jump through a bunch of mental hoops to try to get the Scriptures to say something other than what they clearly mean and if you want to picture all of Israel suffering through the Sabbath because they're desperate to be allowed to go outside the camp to do their business, then go right ahead. I'll go with the much simpler and more logical explanation that God wants us to gather for corporate worship on the Sabbath, and that He doesn't mind us going to the bathroom that day.

The TOG​

This explains why so many reject the teachings of the Messianic Community.

On the one hand we are directed to a Gods word to follow what is written, while at the same time you guys try to reinvent what the word says in an attempt to hedge the gap between TRAVELING TO A COFPORATE WORSHIP MEETING and Going the the bathroom in your area of the wilderness.

No wonder Jesus said - you teach as doctrine the commandments of men.

Remember it was The religion of Judaism the murdered Jesus Christ.

Paul elaborates on this very thing.


Going to the bathroom.

Traveling to a meeting across town.

Can you tell the difference?


JLB

 

[follower]

"Genesis 50:20 WEB - As for you, you meant evil against me ...
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is today, to save many people alive."

Galatians 2:15 - Bible Gateway - BibleGateway.com
... we find we are as much sinners as the Gentiles, does that mean that Christ ... As far as the Law is concerned I may consider that I died on the cross with Christ.

if Yeshua had not died, no gentile would be saved, nor any Jew.

all who have died on the cross with Christ, may perhaps obtain salvation... Yhwh meant it for our good !

 

[TOG]

Going to the bathroom.

Traveling to a meeting across town.

Can you tell the difference?


JLB

When you don't have indoor plumbing, both involve going outside your home. This poses no problem for me, since I don't insist on a hyper-literal interpretation, and therefore don't end up with ridiculous contradictions. You are the one that says that going outside on the Sabbath is forbidden. How do you reconcile that with Deu. 23:12-14?

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

Remember it was The religion of Judaism the murdered Jesus Christ.

No, it wasn't. It was people who killed Jesus, not a religion. It was a group of Jews (not all Jews) that demanded his crucifixion, a Roman governor who officially ordered him to be crucified and Roman soldiers who carried it out. All of this was done because of the sins of all people, Romans, Jews and others. Answering the question "who killed Jesus?" isn't as simple as some make it out to be.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

When you don't have indoor plumbing, both involve going outside your home. This poses no problem for me, since I don't insist on a hyper-literal interpretation, and therefore don't end up with ridiculous contradictions. You are the one that says that going outside on the Sabbath is forbidden. How do you reconcile that with Deu. 23:12-14?

The TOG​

I think having dug a hole behind the tent the day before in a person's area, to make ready for the Sabbath is all that would be needed.


This is a far cry from trying to justify driving across town and all the prep that goes into a Sabbath "meeting".


JLB

 

[JLB]

No, it wasn't. It was people who killed Jesus, not a religion. It was a group of Jews (not all Jews) that demanded his crucifixion, a Roman governor who officially ordered him to be crucified and Roman soldiers who carried it out. All of this was done because of the sins of all people, Romans, Jews and others. Answering the question "who killed Jesus?" isn't as simple as some make it out to be.

The TOG​

Judaism is the religion that the religious leaders turned the law into by the time John and Jesus came on the seen.

It is a corrupt version of the law, and is filled with the traditions of men, which made the word of God of no effect.


This is just exactly what is happening in this discussion.

You are exchanging the rest that God intended on the sabbath, for what you want to do, which is have a meeting on the Sabbath by getting evrybody to to the work of leaving their home instead of reasting, and going to the Sabbath meeting, whereby those who are their go about their work.

12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. Galatians 1:12-14

The religion of Judaism persecuted Jesus and His Church.

The religion of Judaism wants another temple.

The religion of Judaism is antichrist!

There is no difference between the religion of Judaism and Islam.

The law on the other hand, as given in Moses day, was not Judaism.

The law was to lead them to Christ.

Judaism lead they away from Christ!


Paul no longer server the religion of Judaism, but served Jesus Christ and His Church.

Paul was then persecuted by the religion of Judaism.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Jesus was a Jew who practiced Judaism in the Spirit in which it was intended. Judaism practiced in a legalistic, haughty, oppressive way is what the Pharisees where guilty of. There is a difference.

Once the sabbath becomes a burden it is no longer rest, but a work.

 

[brother Paul]

Until Horeb, no one is commanded to observe the Sabbath (Deut. 5:3) and He never commands any gentiles to observe it....to the israelites whom He did command it is perpetual in all their generations...in the entire Bible NO Israelite, even Moses, attends a gathering all together in a Church, Synagogue, Tabernacle, or Temple, until after the practice was invented by the P'ushim (Pharisees) in Babylon....by the time of Jesus it is their manner, or custom, but not a mitzvot even then.... so...convocate "in your dwellings", "your place", etc. for Christians, everyday is a Holy Convocation (Sabbath to Sabbath, New moon, to new Moon)...He is ouor Shabbat...we are IN HIM, the LORD of Shabbat

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except ye abide in me.

If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you.

If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This is my commandment, That you love one another, as I have loved you.

When we enter into Christ, we have His rest (the Lord's rest)...the Sabbath was made for man (humans) but we are a new creature IN CHRIST...a beni-Elohim (sons of God)....we have entered into the Lord's rest....

 

[jasonc]

When you don't have indoor plumbing, both involve going outside your home. This poses no problem for me, since I don't insist on a hyper-literal interpretation, and therefore don't end up with ridiculous contradictions. You are the one that says that going outside on the Sabbath is forbidden. How do you reconcile that with Deu. 23:12-14?

The TOG​

the army has an unwritten rule, don't use the latrine inside, near or around the darn tent! why? something called sanitation!

 

[TOG]

I think having dug a hole behind the tent the day before in a person's area, to make ready for the Sabbath is all that would be needed.

No, it had to be outside the camp. According to your interpretation of "all your dwellings", they wouldn't be allowed to go outside their homes, much less outside the camp.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

the army has an unwritten rule, don't use the latrine inside, near or around the darn tent! why? something called sanitation!

Precisely. That's why they had to go outside the camp. Understanding the phrase "in all your dwellings" the way I do allows for that, as well as for gathering for corporate worship. But according to your interpretation, they weren't allowed to go outside their homes on the Sabbath. That interpretation creates all kinds of problems and contradictions.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

The religion of Judaism is antichrist!

There is no difference between the religion of Judaism and Islam.

If you're going to spew nonsense like that, I see no reason to discuss this with you any further.

The TOG​

 

[brother Paul]

Precisely. That's why they had to go outside the camp. Understanding the phrase "in all your dwellings" the way I do allows for that, as well as for gathering for corporate worship. But according to your interpretation, they weren't allowed to go outside their homes on the Sabbath. That interpretation creates all kinds of problems and contradictions.

The TOG​

Really! Name some of them. Please show us a command or instruction by the Lord that says the people should leave their dwellings and gather together into one place for worship on the 7th day (Now the word does say they were two worship together on the three High Sabbath feasts but never on the 7th day)....that actual fact does not mean it is wrong to do so, but just that it is not "the required day" to do so...

 

[TOG]

Really! Name some of them. Please show us a command or instruction by the Lord that says the people should leave their dwellings and gather together into one place for worship on the 7th day (Now the word does say they were two worship together on the three High Sabbath feasts but never on the 7th day)....that actual fact does not mean it is wrong to do so, but just that it is not "the required day" to do so...

I already have, just read my previous posts. But like I said, I don't see any reason to discuss this with people who say things like "There's no difference between the religon Judaism and Islam".

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

If you're going to spew nonsense like that, I see no reason to discuss this with you any further.

The TOG​

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2 John 1:7


Does Judaism confess Jesus as Messiah?

Yes or No?


JLB