The Sabbath is SUNDAY, ttg, TanNinety ...?

[TanNinety]

Is the pagan "sun" day worse than the page "saturn" day? And which came first, the seven days of the week or paganism?

I never said "saturn" day was better for sabbath. If you re-read my post I said all days are to be kept holy. Jesus did not stop working on a "sabbath" rest day. There is no resting when it comes to doing good works that emulate the love of God and showing love to your neighbour and that is what exactly what I said in my post. I havent proposed any "alternate" days for sabbath.

Sputnik, I understand this is important to you. So let me give you some of my own views. You are giving a VERY valid reason to consider keeping the sabbath. God has blessed the seventh day way before there was sin and law in the world. But God just did not bless the day He also blessed His creation, the animals, earth, everything in it. Now do we stop being non-vegetarians because God blessed the animals way before He even blessed the seventh day and not a single jew was around? Do we stop polluting the earth because it was blessed? Do you drive a car right now that runs on electricity or use any appliance that doesnt have batteries?

We need to understand sabbath for what it is before we start "keeping" it.
To me it is not just a DAY of rest but a PLACE of rest that you can enter into.
It was day as given in the ten commandments but it was a foreshadow of a place of rest that believers enter into in Christ. Now that Christ came and was resurrected we are called to enter into this place of rest in the salvation that He brings. We need to go to Jesus for this rest not keep up with the recurrence of time for the seventh day to rest. I hope you get my point.

But I will further study into this and will evaluate my position and let you know. Jesus is called the king of sabbath not because He kept it legalistically but He said "come to me those who are heavy in burden and I will give you rest". Now that is the true sabbath. Now that makes Him the Lord of sabbath, not saturday nor a sunday.

 

[TanNinety]

Sputnik,

Mark 2:27-28 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and not people to benefit the Sabbath. And I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath!"

For now that is what comes to mind. The sabbath was made for the people not the people for the sabbath.
What does it mean for Jesus to be the master even of the sabbath?
Like I said, you enter into the rest not just on a particular seventh day but by enterig to that place of rest in Jesus. Let me know if I am interpreting it wrong.

 

[Solo]

Is the pagan "sun" day worse than the page "saturn" day? And which came first, the seven days of the week or paganism?

I never said "saturn" day was better for sabbath. If you re-read my post I said all days are to be kept holy. Jesus did not stop working on a "sabbath" rest day. There is no resting when it comes to doing good works that emulate the love of God and showing love to your neighbour and that is what exactly what I said in my post. I havent proposed any "alternate" days for sabbath.

Sputnik, I understand this is important to you. So let me give you some of my own views. You are giving a VERY valid reason to consider keeping the sabbath. God has blessed the seventh day way before there was sin and law in the world. But God just did not bless the day He also blessed His creation, the animals, earth, everything in it. Now do we stop being non-vegetarians because God blessed the animals way before He even blessed the seventh day and not a single jew was around? Do we stop polluting the earth because it was blessed? Do you drive a car right now that runs on electricity or use any appliance that doesnt have batteries?

We need to understand sabbath for what it is before we start "keeping" it.
To me it is not just a DAY of rest but a PLACE of rest that you can enter into.
It was day as given in the ten commandments but it was a foreshadow of a place of rest that believers enter into in Christ. Now that Christ came and was resurrected we are called to enter into this place of rest in the salvation that He brings. We need to go to Jesus for this rest not keep up with the recurrence of time for the seventh day to rest. I hope you get my point.

But I will further study into this and will evaluate my position and let you know. Jesus is called the king of sabbath not because He kept it legalistically but He said "come to me those who are heavy in burden and I will give you rest". Now that is the true sabbath. Now that makes Him the Lord of sabbath, not saturday nor a sunday.

I know what you meant, and I agree. I was just giving those that consider sunday pagan a jab with the "Saturn"day reference.

 

[JM]

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

What rest is that?

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Christ is our Sabbath, read Hebrews 3 - 5.

 

[JM]

Which day of the week is the Sabbath?

Prove the seventh day was Saturday BEFORE the covenant made in Ex.

A quote from John MacArthur:

In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.

The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.
In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).
Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.
There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.

The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.

In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).

In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).

Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord\'s Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).

For more on the effects of the new covenant on the believer: http://solagratia.org/Categories/The_Sabbath.aspx

 

[wavy]

Just as I don't believe Dec 25th is Jesus's birthday I don't believe sunday is the sabbath. But whatever day it is this is what I believe about sabbath

John 5:16 So the Jewish leaders began harassing Jesus for breaking the Sabbath rules. 17 But Jesus replied, "My Father never stops working, so why should I?" 18 So the Jewish leaders tried all the more to kill him. In addition to disobeying the Sabbath rules, he had spoken of God as his Father, thereby making himself equal with God.

The only way to keep the sabbath holy is not by gathering/attending at a church building but doing what we Christians are called to do every single day i.e., love God with all we have got and love our neighbour as we would ourself. Now, are we to do the above on a special holy day? I would rather do it everyday than to do it only on a pagan "sun" day. I will keep my commandments of love and let israel keep its commandments of law.

Well, I see this type of response quite frequently (take no offense). However, I have a problem with this.

The sabbath was not designed to limit your love and well doing to a singular day every week. It's a day set apart for Yahweh and, frankly, has nothing to do with your capacity to love etc. So this would only be a fair argument (this statement: "The only way to keep the sabbath holy is...doing what we Christians are called to do every single day i.e., love God with all we have got and love our neighbour as we would ourself") if one was never required to love on any other days than the sabbath.

Also, Israel's "commandments of law" include:

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: יהוה [is] our Elohim יהוה is one:
Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love יהוה thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am יהוה.

 

[wavy]

Again the Sabbath is Jesus Christ our Lord as explained in Hebrews 4:1-9. Colossians 2: 16-17 also explains that the OT laws are only a shadow of what Christ would do with his blood, not the realities themselves. The notes in my NIV also explain that the obersvance of the Sabbath and religious ceremonies & festivals is a faliure to recognize that Jesus has already fulfilled them. Therefore, the question of this thread is moot.

The 4th chapter of Hebrews does not state Christ is the sabbath at all. There is nothing in the passage that says he has replaced the sabbath. That must be, according to what one has already preconceived, read into the text.

As far as Colossians, it says nothing about "OT laws". It does not say the things mentioned in 2:16 are shadows of Christ. It says they are shadows of things to come in the Greek.

Also, no scripture says any commandment was "fulfilled" in Christ or "fulfilled" by Christ.

There are two ways the NT uses the word "fulfill" in the context of fulfilling scripture (law/prophets) that I have seen thus far:

(1) Matthew 5:17. Here Christ speaks as a rabbi, where "fulfill" means to arrive at the correct interpretation and "destroy" means to misinterpret the scripture.

(2) Prophecy. Example:

Matthew 8:16
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Matthew 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses".

As far as whether or not to keep certain commandments in the law? The scripture never says anything like, for example, "Christ fulfilled the sabbath so we no longer have to literally do it and then became the sabbath".

Notice also that "reality" does not appear in the Greek text of Colossians 2:17, as in "the reality, however, is found in Christ" according to the NIV. Neither does "found" nor "in" nor "however".

Also notice that even though the NIV translates brosei (eating) and posei (drinking) as "eat" and "drink", the Greek, if you look it up, is talking about the act thereof (the act of eating, the act of drinking), not an article of consumption.

So if all those " religious ceremonies" and "festivals" are not supposed to be kept because Christ "fulfilled" them, we should not be eating or drinking either.

 

[wavy]

Jesus fulfilled the law for us, Sputnik.

Please show me the scripture where he "fulfilled" it for us.

And that includes the Sabbath law.

Does that include loving our neighbor too?

One can worship God in spirit anywhere, any time, and any day

Of course. As I made clear by principle to another poster on this thread, the sabbath is not a prohibition of loving or worshipping or doing good on other days.

 

[wavy]

Sputnik,

Mark 2:27-28 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and not people to benefit the Sabbath. And I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath!"

For now that is what comes to mind. The sabbath was made for the people not the people for the sabbath.
What does it mean for Jesus to be the master even of the sabbath?
Like I said, you enter into the rest not just on a particular seventh day but by enterig to that place of rest in Jesus. Let me know if I am interpreting it wrong.

Well, in my humble opinion, we need to clarify a few things. In this scripture Christ rebuked the Pharisees extrabiblical dogma on keeping the sabbath. He makes it clear that the preservation of life and the well being of the individual overrides the lesser commandments.

The sabbath was not made to restrict you to the letter of doing certain kinds of activities if they are needed to do a necessary, good thing.

Say I had a deadly disease. The sabbath drew on and when it came, my disease was getting worse and if I didn't get to the hospital, who knows what might happen? So my mother decides to drive me to the hospital on the sabbath. She gets in the car and realizes there is no gas. She only has enough to make it to the gas station. But buying is forbidden on the sabbath, so how is she going to purchase it? Who knows if I could make it another day?

Does she let me suffer and possibly die because buying gas is breaking the sabbath to the letter? Of course not. Yahshua here would have called her a fool, and would have said "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath".

What good is the sabbath if you're dead? That is the principle being applied here.

Same with something like unclean meat. I'm found lying on the road starving to death. Some one comes by and takes me home and has some pork ready to consume (and that's all they have). Do I refuse it because the law says we shouldn't eat it? Or is this one of those cases where the preservation of my life takes precedence over the commandment? The latter. This is what he is saying here.

So him being the master of the sabbath let's us know that he knows darn good and well what is and what isn't allowed on the sabbath, and in this case, his disciples were not wrong for merely picking grain to eat because they were hungry.

 

[wavy]

Yo...

I could answer those 80 questions, solo. :-D

 

[wavy]

I got bored, solo. Here we go. I'll answer the first ten:

If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath. Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath?

I do not personally believe anyone kept the sabbath before Moses.

Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about he Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Gen 14:20, Circumcision: Gen 17:10, Marriage: Gen 2:24 & Gen 34:9. Why would God leave out the "all important" Sabbath command?

Above.

If the fact that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone proves they are forever, then whatever happened to the two stone tablets that God gave Adam at the beginning of time? Why is Moses the first one to see a stone tablet written by the finger of God?

Irrelevant to my belief, as I do not believe any of these things. :-D

Why is the weekly Sabbath commandment never quoted in the New Testament?

Many commandments are not quoted in the NT. Commandments that most would dare not break. "You shall have no other elohim before me" is not quoted in the NT. It must be implied from a scripture such as 1 Corinthians 8:6. So with something like the sabbath, a scripture such as Matthew 12:12 could be used in the same way.

If it is lawful to do good on the sabbath, then obviously the sabbath must be in effect. You can't do any deed, "lawful" or otherwise, on a day that is not supposed to be kept. That would void the point.

Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?

I disagree with this. This assumes that "throughout your generations" refers to things that are temporary. That this phrase has hidden meaning, as if it secretly means "this commandment I just told you is going to be done away".

Why is there no example of exclusively Christians coming together on the Sabbath day as a church or prayer meeting after the resurrection of Christ?

Argument from silence. Anyway, the key here is "Christians". The first followers, however, were Nazarenes who kept the sabbath. Paul was one of them (Acts 24:5).

Why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy?

Argument from silence. Many commands are not reiterated in the NT.

While Paul taught in the synagogues up to 84 times, why does the Bible never say he kept the sabbath?

Silly question. The bible never says Paul "kept not killing".

If Paul’s action of preaching to non-believers 84 times in the book of Acts on the Sabbath make him a Sabbath keeper, is a Seventh-day Adventist pastor a Sunday keeper if we invite him for 84 Sundays in a row to teach us about God’s word?

I am not an SDA, but regardless, this question is based off of the assumption that the only reason Paul kept the sabbath was because he was invited to and not because he obeyed the commandment.

How could Adam, Noah and Abraham keep the Sabbath, when Deuteronomy 5:2-4 says that the 10 commandment covenant (see was "not made with any of the fathers of Israel who lived before Moses."

As I said, I do not believe they kept the sabbath or even knew about it.

 

[TanNinety]

Well, I see this type of response quite frequently (take no offense). However, I have a problem with this.

The sabbath was not designed to limit your love and well doing to a singular day every week. It's a day set apart for Yahweh and has, frankly, nothing to do with your capacity to love etc. So this would only be a fair argument (this statement: "The only way to keep the sabbath holy is...doing what we Christians are called to do every single day i.e., love God with all we have got and love our neighbour as we would ourself") is if one was never required to love on any other days than the sabbath.

Also, Israel's "commandments of law" include:

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: יהוה [is] our Elohim יהוה is one:
Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love יהוה thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am יהוה.

It might be a typical answer to hear quite frequently but the truth is just the same. I never said the sabbath was designed to limit our love nor did I say we need to accentuate more love on that day. You probably misunderstood my point or I haven’t represented it quite obviously. I was trying to bring out the difference of how Jesus acted on the sabbath and any normal day? How can you keep the sabbath and not get dogmatic/legalistic about it? That’s why I pointed out the scripture while Jesus addressed this to the pharisees. The truth is we can beat each other over up with “how†to keep the law or a commandment, but the easiest way to follow any commandment is to follow the most important rules that Jesus pointed out to us. Love your Father with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. If that is taken care of then the rest take care of themselves.

When I said “I will let Israel keep its commandments of law and I will keep my commandments of love†I probably wasn’t too clear, I admit. I wasn’t saying we can do away with the law or the ten commandments and since when did the commandments of love not encompass the commandments of law? Doesn’t mean I am going to go get circumcised. But the point is commandments of love are what Christians called to do and reveal more about the law. Unless you see the OT in the light of NT you will totally miss the point.

To me commandments of love are more hard to follow than law. I am not copping out when I say law is for Israel. I am actually taking more responsibility accepting the commandments of love. For example adultery, OT the act has to be omitted, NT even the thought of lust has to be omitted.

To me Jesus is the lord over sabbath as the scriptures say. Does that mean we need to stop keeping the sabbath for God and start keeping it for Jesus? No, Sabbath to me represented a day of rest, a day set aside for God. When you enter into this rest in Jesus Christ you enter into this place of rest. You understand what sabbath is really about. When you begin to set aside your whole life for the heavenly Father then you keep the sabbath.


Below is the post by JM which expresses my views.

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

What rest is that?

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Thanks TanNinety and thanks, as always, to wavy.

Love for God, surely, would be manifested through obedience to Him. As I've suggested repeatedly on the board, surely the ONLY way we can specifically offer obedience (love) for God is by adhering to the first four commandments ...? That, of course, includes the fourth.

Were it not for the fact that - somewhere along the way - another man-made 'holy day' was installed to replace God's Creation Sabbath, a day to which the overwhelming majority of Christians give allegiance, the fourth commandment would not even be an issue. The Christian Church is 'locked in' to a day that it now cannot acknowledge as false without losing face.

Don't let us kid ourselves ...many Christian scholars know that the Sabbath command is still binding and that Sunday is a counterfeit. The only way out is to either, 1. silence the sabbatarians through ridicule, or 2. make the 'Sabbath command' go away. If one sifts their way through all of the posts on this oft-raised issue, one will find that the immensely loyal 'Sunday supporters' have not disappointed the 'ridicule the sabbatarians' and 'abolish the Sabbath' advocates. Whenever the Sabbath issue rears its ugly head, it gets shot down with 'the Sabbath was abolished' or 'you're nothing but an evil cult'. These are responses from those who purport to 'love God with all their heart, mind and soul', mind you ...!

Despite Solo's lengthy post - previous page - nothing other than human excuses for 'keeping' Sunday as sacred under the pretext of 'knowledge' are offered in lieu of the Word of God. One might come up with a million reasons why we should 'keep' Sunday 'as is' but nothing can alter the fact that the seventh-day Sabbath was initiated by God and that Sunday was initiated by MAN ...NOTHING!

Paul - incidentally - had no more authority than do we to abolish the Sabbath or any other command of God. He was not God and yet Christians have exalted this mere human being to the status of God. As long as Paul says something - or even APPEARS to say something, more like - then it's fine by most Christians. God ALONE can abolish the Sabbath and He had no reason to do so and in fact DID NOT do so.

What I find rather chilling is the fact that many Christians slander SDAs (specifically) and other sabbatarians (generally) for merely upholding God's fourth commandment. Should this fact alone not raise a red flag?

 

[wavy]

How can you keep the sabbath and not get dogmatic/legalistic about it?

By doing it in truth.

The truth is we can beat each other over up with “how†to keep the law or a commandment, but the easiest way to follow any commandment is to follow the most important rules that Jesus pointed out to us. Love your Father with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. If that is taken care of then the rest take care of themselves.

I am of the belief that you must have the "knowledge of Elohim" (Hosea 6:6) to judge how to righteously keep the sabbath (or any grey area of any commandment), and yes, love for Yahweh Elohim is the key. But a mere feeling of emotion does not mean you keep the sabbath by whatever definition of "love" one has.

Rather, when one keeps the sabbath and keeps it in truth, that is love as you are obeying your heavenly Father.

Unless you see the OT in the light of NT you will totally miss the point.

In a sense, yes, and I can see exactly why you would say this. However, you can't fully understand the NT without genuine knowledge of the "old" (I despise that term because the division of the bible into "old" and "new" testaments is a manmade one).

For example, let's take a look at a two NT scriptures:

#1.
Colossians 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Colossians 2:21
(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Colossians 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Colossians 2:23
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

#2.
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Many believe the Colossians passage is referring to the law [of Moses] and that those trying to obey the law have only an outward show of wisdom. A false wisdom.

Because of traditional Christian teaching, many are seduced into believing this. In Ephesians, many believe that what was abolished was the law of Moses and that it was "enmity" and a tool of hatred that separated Jew from non-Jew.

But is keeping the law only a show of wisdom or is it definite wisdom? Did the law ever separate Jew from non-Jew as "enmity"?

How could you know without knowledge of the Tanakc? What does it say?

Deuteronomy 4:5
Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as יהוה my Elohim commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deuteronomy 4:6
Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deuteronomy 4:7
For what nation is there so great, who hath Elohim so nigh unto them, as יהוה our Elohim is in all things that we call upon him for?
Deuteronomy 4:8
And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Isaiah 56:3
Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to יהוה, speak, saying, יהוה hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree

I could cite many more scriptures (but for sake of time). These scriptures tell us that keeping the law is wisdom, and that the nations were supposed to see it and glorify Yahweh. It is not "enmity" between Israelite and non-Israelite. It brought them together for a common purpose (to glorify the one Elohim). And as we can see from Isaiah also, strangers (aliens/non-Israelites) were not excluded from being part of the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2:12).

One who does not have some type of grounding in the original scriptures, or the Tanakc, and has been taught all their life by listening to their preacher in church with his nose stuck in the NT that the law is all these horrible, "ceremonial" and detestable "Jewish" things, will not be able to interpret these NT scriptures correctly.

In light of these scriptures, Ephesians and Colossians in this instance must be looked at in a different way. You can't say these NT scriptures clarify or expound upon the original ones. They, if the law is indeed the subject of those NT passages, are in direct conflict with the original scriptures.

For example adultery, OT the act has to be omitted, NT even the thought of lust has to be omitted.

When Christ said that, he was giving the true intent of the original (that is what it means rabbinically, as he was a rabbi, to "fulfill" the scripture; many believers wrongly believe today that to "fulfill" the law means to do it and keep it perfectly so we don't have to).

When you enter into this rest in Jesus Christ you enter into this place of rest. You understand what sabbath is really about. When you begin to set aside your whole life for the heavenly Father then you keep the sabbath.

Well, I must have scripture.

Below is the post by JM which expresses my views.

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

What rest is that?

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I disagree with JM's interpretation here for reasons stated in a thread I just made before I responded to this post. Anyway, we can discuss more on this if you wish.

These types of conversations can get heated. Let's try to keep it smooth.

 

[wavy]

Sup, Sput. Long time, no see.

 

[Solo]

Re: Yo...

I could answer those 80 questions, solo. :-D

Yes but you answer everything with a crazy Nazarite Messianic bias. I believe that the ole devil can answer them also.

To answer these 80 questions in the light of God's truth would not be able by either of you. :-D

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sup, Sput. Long time, no see.

Well . . .that's right. I HAD thought that you'd been raptured! :smt044

 

[Heidi]

Thanks TanNinety and thanks, as always, to wavy.

Love for God, surely, would be manifested through obedience to Him. As I've suggested repeatedly on the board, surely the ONLY way we can specifically offer obedience (love) for God is by adhering to the first four commandments ...? That, of course, includes the fourth.

Were it not for the fact that - somewhere along the way - another man-made 'holy day' was installed to replace God's Creation Sabbath, a day to which the overwhelming majority of Christians give allegiance, the fourth commandment would not even be an issue. The Christian Church is 'locked in' to a day that it now cannot acknowledge as false without losing face.

Don't let us kid ourselves ...many Christian scholars know that the Sabbath command is still binding and that Sunday is a counterfeit. The only way out is to either, 1. silence the sabbatarians through ridicule, or 2. make the 'Sabbath command' go away. If one sifts their way through all of the posts on this oft-raised issue, one will find that the immensely loyal 'Sunday supporters' have not disappointed the 'ridicule the sabbatarians' and 'abolish the Sabbath' advocates. Whenever the Sabbath issue rears its ugly head, it gets shot down with 'the Sabbath was abolished' or 'you're nothing but an evil cult'. These are responses from those who purport to 'love God with all their heart, mind and soul', mind you ...!

Despite Solo's lengthy post - previous page - nothing other than human excuses for 'keeping' Sunday as sacred under the pretext of 'knowledge' are offered in lieu of the Word of God. One might come up with a million reasons why we should 'keep' Sunday 'as is' but nothing can alter the fact that the seventh-day Sabbath was initiated by God and that Sunday was initiated by MAN ...NOTHING!

Paul - incidentally - had no more authority than do we to abolish the Sabbath or any other command of God. He was not God and yet Christians have exalted this mere human being to the status of God. As long as Paul says something - or even APPEARS to say something, more like - then it's fine by most Christians. God ALONE can abolish the Sabbath and He had no reason to do so and in fact DID NOT do so.

What I find rather chilling is the fact that many Christians slander SDAs (specifically) and other sabbatarians (generally) for merely upholding God's fourth commandment. Should this fact alone not raise a red flag?

Sorry, but the answer is to understand exactly what the Sabbath is and Hebrews 4:1-9 tells us. If you don't believe it, then you can make up your own gospel.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: Yo...

I could answer those 80 questions, solo. :-D

Yes but you answer everything with a crazy Nazarite Messianic bias. I believe that the ole devil can answer them also.

Oh, absolutely ...the devil may well be the author of them!

To answer these 80 questions in the light of God's truth would not be able by either of you. :-D

There is no God's truth in the questions, Solo. They are merely a ploy to support this particular erroneous teaching of the Christian Church. If the Church today 'fessed up' that they have been in error this would affect Christianity like never before. They could never regain face and Christianity would collapse into a heap. If they are wrong on such a major issue, then what about other beliefs that they preach? This is why it's left to the INDIVIDUAL to sort out the facts for themselves.

Meanwhile those who must cling to their 'man-made holy day' for (often) economical reasons (to teach the truth would throw many ministers on to the unemployment line) will CERTAINLY devise 80 or more questions to discredit the Sabbath and to save their own face (and job). They need not worry too much about the issue and they know it. Saturday (the seventh-day) is not only a work day for many but also a day of recreation. Most people would not give up these things SIMPLY to devote the day to God! Now, would they?

What do you folks out there prefer to do ...play it safe like the hierarchy and not rock the boat or alienate the congregation and risk losing friends, or seek the truth on this issue as an individual? The truth can be found in your Bible ...not from me, not from wavy, not from Solo . . .

If one were to read the Bible from cover to cover - without any preconceived traditions of men to cloud the issue - ALL Christians would be keeping the seventh-day Sabbath. Sunday would not even enter into the equasion. True!

 

[wavy]

If one sifts their way through all of the posts on this oft-raised issue, one will find that the immensely loyal 'Sunday supporters' have not disappointed the 'ridicule the sabbatarians' and 'abolish the Sabbath' advocates. Whenever the Sabbath issue rears its ugly head, it gets shot down with 'the Sabbath was abolished' or 'you're nothing but an evil cult'. These are responses from those who purport to 'love God with all their heart, mind and soul', mind you ...!

So true...

But, I've been guilty of it too (ridicule, all the while promoting "love God with all your heart...").