The Seal of God and the Mark of the beast.

[Vic C.]

Can anyone keep all the 10 commandments?
I thought that was the reason Christ had to die... because we can't keep the law.

You are correct Rick, but don't sweat it. This is textbook SDA theology. It's absurd to believe that Jesus died for our sins AND that we must adhere to a seventh day sabbath or else be accused of taking some "mark". In others words, it's either Jesus + nothing or we do not need Him at all. I give credit for all I do and my for my salvation to Him!

Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

People need to rightly divide God's word. I work out my salvation on this side of the Cross. It's like the gospel that Paul preached means nothing, even though he was ordained by the Lord Himself to preach them. We are not Pharisees and I thank the Good Lord we are not. For if we were, the law we try so hard to keep would condemn of for sure without the atoning blood sacrifice of God's only begotten Son.

Even the Reformers, who shared the same contempt for "Rome", understand salvation from the proper perspective.

 

[klight]

i am not a sda. i always thought they were weird, but now i see the truth. and the sunday sabbath has not been enforced yet by law, so we are not in that time yet. but read the link before you judge as i once did. the nt makes it very clear that yes Christ died to save us from sin, but not from obedience. Christ living here on earth proved to us that man can keep God's laws perfectly. why do u say man cant? the word is not debatable it still requires obedience!

 

[JudaicChristian]

i am not a sda. i always thought they were weird, but now i see the truth. and the sunday sabbath has not been enforced yet by law, so we are not in that time yet. but read the link before you judge as i once did. the nt makes it very clear that yes Christ died to save us from sin, but not from obedience. Christ living here on earth proved to us that man can keep God's laws perfectly. why do u say man cant? the word is not debatable it still requires obedience!

There have been Sunday Sabbath laws in the past. Also the order of the commandments was changed by the Catholic Church. So who changed Gods times and laws?

 

[klight]

Can anyone keep all the 10 commandments?
I thought that was the reason Christ had to die... because we can't keep the law.

Rick W

No one can keep the law without faith. But through faith comes obedience. God never asks us to do something we can not do; by saying such a thing is to say that God is unjust and unfair. And he leads by example. For God, the Creator, is not human, and does not need to rest, yet he rested on the 7th day. Why? He did it for us. If God sets one day apart from all the rest as holy, who are we as mere men to say anything different? Yet we still turned our backs on God. So God sent his son to us, further illustrating His example. Jesus was flesh and blood, just as we are, and he was tempted. Yet he walked in obedience to God, and even He kept all of his commandments, even the Sabbath day. He led by example as a man, so how can you say it is impossible? By saying such a thing you are calling God a liar, because you have believed the lie of Satan. Why do you think that Jesus says that only a few, a few, will ever find the narrow road? Because only a few are willing to obey God, and take the easy, lazy way of life. Read Psalm 119; if your heart is not in the same place that the author’s was, then your heart is not right before God. We should be so thankful to Him for our salvation that we should long to obey him. Not excuse it by saying it is impossible. That is a lack of faith. God gave us the 10 commandments to show us that it is impossible to keep them without faith, but he gave us Christ so that Christ could, not take them away, but fulfill them, so that through grace and faith we could obey. Obedience is nothing without faith, even so faith is nothing without obedience.
Also, the fact that the Sabbath still stands on this side of the cross, read Hebrews 4:1-13, along with the fact that Jesus, and even Peter, Paul, and the other apostles kept the Sabbath, even after Christ’s death.

 

[klight]

[quote="Rick W":3kd4hoc5]Can anyone keep all the 10 commandments?
I thought that was the reason Christ had to die... because we can't keep the law.

You are correct Rick, but don't sweat it. This is textbook SDA theology. It's absurd to believe that Jesus died for our sins AND that we must adhere to a seventh day sabbath or else be accused of taking some "mark". In others words, it's either Jesus + nothing or we do not need Him at all. I give credit for all I do and my for my salvation to Him!

Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

People need to rightly divide God's word. I work out my salvation on this side of the Cross. It's like the gospel that Paul preached means nothing, even though he was ordained by the Lord Himself to preach them. We are not Pharisees and I thank the Good Lord we are not. For if we were, the law we try so hard to keep would condemn of for sure without the atoning blood sacrifice of God's only begotten Son.

Even the Reformers, who shared the same contempt for "Rome", understand salvation from the proper perspective.[/quote:3kd4hoc5]

Vic:

Who is correct, God or man? And how can you tell a brother not to sweat it? The Bible talks about people like you when it says,
“And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God… their worship is a farce, for they replace God’s commands with their own man made teaching.†Matthew 15:3, 9
“So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.†Matthew 5:19

It is not textbook SDA theology, it is the word of God. Jesus died to remove our sins, not to excuse them. Obedience is nothing without faith, but even so, faith is nothing without obedience. Even Jesus says so! It is not Just the OT; but out of the mouth of God’s Son, and the NT writers also.
“People need to rightly divide God's word. I work out my salvation on this side of the Cross. It's like the gospel that Paul preached means nothing, even though he was ordained by the Lord Himself to preach them. We are not Pharisees and I thank the Good Lord we are not. For if we were, the law we try so hard to keep would condemn of for sure without the atoning blood sacrifice of God's only begotten Son.â€
You say this, yet you use nothing but OT scripture to back up your claim. And even Paul himself stressed the importance of obedience. Here are only a few verses from Jesus and the NT to erase your claim that is merely OT based:
“And how can we be sure we belong to him? By obeying his commandments. If someone says, ‘I belong to God,’ but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in truth. But those who obey God’s word really do love Him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did.†1 John 2:1-3
“Those who sin are opposed to the law of God, for all sin opposes the law of God. And you know that Jesus cam to take away our sins, for there is no sin in Him. So if we continue to live in Him, we won’t sin either. But those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is. Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this; when people do what is right, it is because they are righteous, just as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows they belong to the devil…. Those who have been born into God’s family do not sin, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they have been born of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who DOES NOT OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENTS… DOES NOT BELONG TO GOD. 24 Those who obey God’s commandments live in fellowship with him, and he with them,†1 John 3:4-10, 24
“This High Priest (Jesus) of ours understands our weakness, for he faced all of the temptations we do, yet he did not sin.†Hebrews 4:15.
“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the Law of Moses…. No I came to fulfill them,†Matthew 5:17.
“But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached…. But that does not mean that the law has lost its force in even the smallest point. It is stronger and more permanent than heaven and earth.†Luke 16:16, 17
“…you can receive eternal life if you keep the commandments,†Matthew 19:17
“But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God AND put it into practice,†Luke 11:28
“Why do you call me Lord, when you won’t obey me?†Luke 7:46
“15If you love me, OBEY my commandments. 21Those who OBEY my commandments are the ones who love me, and because they love me, my Father will love them, and I will love them…23All those who love me will do what I say… ,†John 14:15, 21, 23
Dear Vic, I know that you love the Lord, but if you work out your salvation on this side of the Cross, you must know even what we are to do on this side. We can not misinterpret the Word, and toss out the OT, for God is the same yesterday, today and forever. What he said then applies now. Search the NT for this, and pray that your eyes will be opened. For even the NT stresses obedience to God. It’s only through faith that we can be obedient, but faith is useless without obedience. Noah had faith in God, but his faith would have been useless if he did not obey, he would have died! Do not misunderstand the two, or underestimate one over the other. Faith and obedience walk hand in hand.
In Christ’s love
A few more verses:
Jude
Hebrews 3:12-15; 5:11-14
1 john 3:19; 3 John 1:11; Titus 3:4-8
Also, the fact that the Sabbath still stands on this side of the cross, read Hebrews 4:1-13, along with the fact that Jesus, and even Peter, Paul, and the other apostles kept the Sabbath, even after Christ’s death.

All scripture in NIV

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I believe there is ALOT of scripture on this but to make it more simple-

The Spiritual mark of God is HAVING THE MIND OF CHRIST AND WORKS OF CHRIST, this happens by being a NEW creation and walking as one. WHen you walk in faith your mind is pure and thinks Like christ thinks and our works follow your faith and perfect your faith.

the spiritual mark of the beast, is your mind still being CARNAL and wicked. I say this because the bible says that men are beasts- and man was made on the 6th day along with all beasts of the field.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.

ALL who are carnal and beastly minded will take a physical mark because it will tie them to the world and its damnation forever, that could be a chip or whatever but it doesnt matter. It comes down to whatever your nature is when the physical mark comes. If you are a beast you will take the mark by the complusion of your own flesh to unite with the body of beastly flesh with evil spirits leading you. If you do not have the nature of beasts but the divine nature of God then you will have no need for the world because your God has supplied your everyneed and your nature will be to walk by faith which produces works to perfect your faith.

 

[Geo]

Actually the Sabbath is pre-Jews and pre-law. It belongs to God. It is also eternal. People do not really understand the full meaning of grace that's why they're so confused about the eternal things that do matter to God.

There is some very good teaching outside the SDA on this subject, the real problem is most people cannot understand it, because Satan was able to tie this teaching and SDA theology together to make one virtual package to toss out together. Oldest association trick in the book, so you will only find truth after you can drop all labels and stigmas, and only believe the Bible, and not human summaries of selective verses and resulting labels, portrayed to be the complete Word, or the full Gospel. I know it's the hardest thing to do, reading the Bible without labeled glasses, but it's so worth it. Otherwise we will miss 40% of what Jesus said, just because it appears ALSO on a SDA website, and for some strange reason you tie that fact together in your mind in order to avoid all "controversial" verses. What tragedy !

 

[(THE)]

Some things to ponder:

When are believers sealed? Can a believer be unsealed? If a believer cannot be unsealed, can they assume the mark? Is this mark for us, or was it for some other generation?

I'm not condoning one position over another. I'm just thinking out loud. I don't know; maybe Luther was right.

1) Believers are sealed when they except Christ and understand,,without a shadow of a doubt,,,that antichrist/satan will return first,,,claiming to be the True Christ....Elects come very much into play here.....

2) No a "true" believer" can no be unsealed......

3) NO a "true" believer cannot be unsealed,,,,the question slowly becomes,,,"When are/were true believers sealed??????"

4) The mark is for the generation of the fig tree.........

 

[(THE)]

i am not a sda. i always thought they were weird, but now i see the truth. and the sunday sabbath has not been enforced yet by law, so we are not in that time yet. but read the link before you judge as i once did. the nt makes it very clear that yes Christ died to save us from sin, but not from obedience. Christ living here on earth proved to us that man can keep God's laws perfectly. why do u say man cant? the word is not debatable it still requires obedience!

ummm,,,,man cannot keep Gods laws perfectly,,,I think some people have tried....
The reason we cant is because we are in the flesh......I agree we are to try.......besides Christ never changed the Law anyhow,,,,just some statues and ordinances......

 

[klight]

so Jesus could not keep God's laws perfectly because he was in the flesh? no, He came to prove to us that only through grace and faith is obedience possible. we are to follow his example without compromise, and when you compromise in your mind that it is impossible, it WILL become impossible for you, and you are not following in the footsteps of Christ.

 

[JudaicChristian]

so Jesus could not keep God's laws perfectly because he was in the flesh? no, He came to prove to us that only through grace and faith is obedience possible. we are to follow his example without compromise, and when you compromise in your mind that it is impossible, it WILL become impossible for you, and you are not following in the footsteps of Christ.

If Christ could not keep the law, then he was a sinner. That would make his death in vain, and he would not be the perfect lamb without blemish. But I assure you, Yahshua was not a law breaker. The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind for the Sabbath. Man= Mankind. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.A Jew is a convert to Judaism and the Hebrews are a ethnic group of people.

Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but a assembly of peoples.
They are the congregation of Zion. And that is according to scripture and history.
A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.

 

[klight]

when we are prisoners to the flesh that was born in sin nature, it is impossible to keep the law. but when we have become a new creation THROUGH Christ we become reborn of the spirit and freed from sin, and we become more and more like Christ, who never sinned. Christ came to take away our sin and be our example. If he can do it while he was in the flesh, so can we through faith and grace, and only after we have become reborn through Christ. and as we follow Christ, we will become more and more like him.

 

[(THE)]

so Jesus could not keep God's laws perfectly because he was in the flesh? no, He came to prove to us that only through grace and faith is obedience possible. we are to follow his example without compromise, and when you compromise in your mind that it is impossible, it WILL become impossible for you, and you are not following in the footsteps of Christ.

Maybe you can share with me one person (just one) besides Christ who was or has been able to follow the law without mistake.....

 

[klight]

I think you are missing the point. it is not about who can keep them perfectly, but who has the desire to, and who really wants with all their heart to. we are men, and we all fall short of the glory of God, but believers have lost sight of God's plan, by excusing disobedience in their minds by saying that it is impossible. through God, ALL things are possible. read Psalm 119; if your heart does not move for God when you read it, then may be you have lost sight of the love for God you first had. and instead of tossing obedience out by saying we are only men, we should strive our best to obey God and all he wants from us. it is the attitude that matters, the heart. and we all have the wrong attitude

 

[Vic C.]

“People need to rightly divide God's word. I work out my salvation on this side of the Cross. It's like the gospel that Paul preached means nothing, even though he was ordained by the Lord Himself to preach them. We are not Pharisees and I thank the Good Lord we are not. For if we were, the law we try so hard to keep would condemn of for sure without the atoning blood sacrifice of God's only begotten Son.â€

You say this, yet you use nothing but OT scripture to back up your claim. And even Paul himself stressed the importance of obedience. Here are only a few verses from Jesus and the NT to erase your claim that is merely OT based:

You may want to reread what I posted. I used no OT scripture whatsoever to back up what you quoted. You see a passage from Psalms and assumed it was related to the paragraph below it.
So, here it is again, in context:

In others words, it's either Jesus + nothing or we do not need Him at all. I give credit for all I do and my for my salvation to Him!

Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler

.

Also, the notion that keeping a seventh day sabbath is an issue of salvation is indeed SDA theology. It's one of their cornerstone teachings along with the Pope is the Antichrist. Therefore, that makes it textbook teaching.

The topic is about the Mark and I concur with the other who say the Sabbath isn't the "deal breaker" between God and man. That brings us back on topic, hopefully.

 

[(THE)]

I think you are missing the point. it is not about who can keep them perfectly, but who has the desire to, and who really wants with all their heart to. we are men, and we all fall short of the glory of God, but believers have lost sight of God's plan, by excusing disobedience in their minds by saying that it is impossible. through God, ALL things are possible. read Psalm 119; if your heart does not move for God when you read it, then may be you have lost sight of the love for God you first had. and instead of tossing obedience out by saying we are only men, we should strive our best to obey God and all he wants from us. it is the attitude that matters, the heart. and we all have the wrong attitude

Please try to remember the things you have already spoken,,,,,

I think you are missing the point. it is not about who can keep them perfectly,

now you say this,,,,but earlier you said

Christ living here on earth proved to us that man can keep God's laws perfectly

Chirst living didnt prove we can live perfectly,,,,,He proved we couldnt so He had to do it.........

Im not saying we arent to try,,,but come on,,,,,its immpossible no-ones going to be perfect,,,ever heard the term "filthy rags"

 

[JudaicChristian]

Exodus 20:6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

 

[klight]

i believe that only through Christ can a man obey God's law perfectly, but i do not want it to get lost in a debate, so that is why i said you are missing the point. the point i am trying to make is not about obeying God's law perfectly, but having the desire to. and once a man has the desire to, he will find himself able to. it starts with the heart. i do not want to argue about who can or cant, but who wants to and who doesnt. obedience starts with the heart, so if your heart is not willing, you will find it impossible. if you have children, it might be easier to picture it, because God is our Father. when you give your child rules and regulations to follow, you are not asking them to do anything they are not able to do. and your child, in his rebellion, will in his mind find it impossible to obey. however, if that child is not rebellious but knows you gave those rules to protect and guide him, out of respect and love will that child strive to obey, especially if you have already set the example.

 

[klight]

and God requires to obey all of his commands, not just the sabbath. there are many who have anger in their hearts, and they are breaking God's commands. those that watch innapropriate things on tv or listen to music that has such things, are also breaking God's law. i want people to see the importance in obeying ALL of HIs commands, but not just some. i have attended 1 SDA church years and years ago, and can not even remember. but how can i promote SDA theology if wat i say is not even based on it, because i dont even know wat they believe? no, it is all based in God's word, and my previous posts in this thread have backed it up with scripture. but if you break one of his laws, wats the use in even keeping the rest? i am not saying to get caught up in pharisee type stuff, but just base how you live on wat God requires of you, and if he requires you to keep the sabbath (obviously it was so important that he included it in the ten commandments when he could have said anything else) why wont you listen?

 

[(THE)]

i believe that only through Christ can a man obey God's law perfectly, but i do not want it to get lost in a debate, so that is why i said you are missing the point. the point i am trying to make is not about obeying God's law perfectly, but having the desire to. and once a man has the desire to, he will find himself able to. it starts with the heart. i do not want to argue about who can or cant, but who wants to and who doesnt. obedience starts with the heart, so if your heart is not willing, you will find it impossible. if you have children, it might be easier to picture it, because God is our Father. when you give your child rules and regulations to follow, you are not asking them to do anything they are not able to do. and your child, in his rebellion, will in his mind find it impossible to obey. however, if that child is not rebellious but knows you gave those rules to protect and guide him, out of respect and love will that child strive to obey, especially if you have already set the example.

I believe we are to strive for perfection,,knowing at all times its not possible, in the flesh....

I agree,,,, obediance is super important :yes ,,,,but as a christian its good to understand you are going to make mistakes,,,,,one of the problems with people becoming christians is they think they must be perfect after becoming a christian,,,,so they quit before they get started,,,,and some feel so bad when they mess up they give up ,,...Im a christian because I mess up alot, not cause im perfect....