The Seven Seals

[Osgiliath]

I'm just opening this up because this has been requested by some members in another thread. I think it would be interesting to analyze The Seven Seals one by one beginning with the Rider on the White Horse. Here are a few posts that were introduced in the other thread.

Originally posted by whirlwind

The seals are written to tell us what will happen.

But the sixth seal IS NOT telling us about the second coming of Christ. It is telling us of Satan's arrival...not when he actually arrives but telling us about when and how he will arrive.

* Revelation 6:1-2 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, "come and see." And I saw, and behold, a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

That isn't Christ...it is the fake.

I need to point out that this is NOT the first seal...it is "one of the seals." The seals are numbered second, third, etc. but the above is not listed as the "first seal." It is one of the seven but not the first!

Instead of it being the first seal the Lamb is opening it is the sixth seal!

Originally posted by Cornelius

Its a good idea to open a thread about the White Horse Rider. He too is the man child although popular theology has changed Him into the villain because few know anything about the man child at all.

Goodness, the antichrist on a WHITE horse. White is not the color of evil.

Originally posted by Vic C

Whoa! I agree, to a point. The interpretation before futurism took hold has the rainbow (or bow) represented a covenant, as it did after the Flood and the rider of the first white horse could either be Jesus as He ushered in the New Covenant. More likely it may represent the Ekklesia as it went forth to spread the Good News of the New Covenant and "conquer" new souls for Christ.

So far we have:

*Whirlwind - White Rider = The fake Christ "Satan" (seals are not events themselves, but foreknowledge of coming events - seals are not given in chronological order)

*Cornelius - White Rider = The Man Child

*Vic C - White Rider = Gospel being spread successfully by the Ecclesia

So far, I'm with Vic.

 

[whirlwind]

The Savior's arrival doesn't preceed Satan. It is written that He comes after the tribulation and the tribulation is Satan's time. The rider on the white horse is going forth to conquer...not save. When Christ arrives at His 2nd Advent it is to judge and make war...still, no conquering. This is not Jesus.

Nor is it the man child. This rider is "given a crown" and arrives on a "white horse" in imitation of Jesus, whose Advent is written of in [Revelation 19:11-16].

This rider carries a bow. Not a bow, as a weapon, but an imitation rainbow. Jesus is surrounded by a true rainbow but this rider has an imitation...pretending to be Jesus. This isn't Jesus or the man child.

• * Bow # 5115 toxon, from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

The rider of the white horse in Revelation 6 does not match up to this Rider in chp 19.......And we all no this Rider spoken of is Christ,,,,that would make the other a fake.....

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind

Nor is it the man child. This rider is "given a crown" and arrives on a "white horse" in imitation of Jesus, whose Advent is written of in [Revelation 19:11-16].

This rider carries a bow. Not a bow, as a weapon, but an imitation rainbow. Jesus is surrounded by a true rainbow but this rider has an imitation...pretending to be Jesus. This isn't Jesus or the man child.


* Bow # 5115 toxon, from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):

You're missing the whole point of the verse if you are focusing on this "bow" denoting an imitation Jesus (not being the true Shekinah surrounding the Savior). That aspect is completely irrelevant to the context. Notice the rider also carries a stephanos, a crown of laurel, or a crown of victory like an athlete (in the Greek Olympics) would wear. The rider is not carrying a diadema which denotes authority or dominion. Paul associates this crown (stephanos) with the reward of victory in competition in 1 Corinthians 9:25. The crowns on the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 12:3 and the crowns on the horns of the beast rising up from the sea in Revelation 13:1 are diadema in Greek, not stephanos.

Understanding the syntax of the Greek in the proper context of the verse as it relates to toxon, it's very clear the horseman rode out of Heaven’s temple carrying a winner's ribbon, an ornamental bow made of fabric which would be offered to those who overcome the world through faith in Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

Perfect Os, that fits right in with what many believed before the current and popular interpretation. I see this crown the way you do and read nothing that indicates this "bow" is an imitation of anything.

 

[Cornelius]

Understanding the syntax of the Greek in the proper context of the verse as it relates to toxon, it's very clear the horseman rode out of Heaven’s temple carrying a winner's ribbon, an ornamental bow made of fabric which would be offered to those who overcome the world through faith in Christ.

OK great. You are the FIRST person that agrees with me, that this "bow" is indeed an ornamental bow and not a weapon. I researched this so long ago and I have given up on anybody ever seeing this too.

 

[Vic C.]

OK great. You are the FIRST person that agrees with me, that this "bow" is indeed an ornamental bow and not a weapon. I researched this so long ago and I have given up on anybody ever seeing this too.

I can agree to it not being a weapon either. :yes

 

[Cornelius]

On the other hand, A toxophilite is the proper name for an Archer or Bowman , coming from the Greek work "toxon"

Toxin comes from the Greek toxon, meaning bow because arrows were often poisoned with what the Greeks called toxicon pharmakon or poison of the bow.

 

[Cornelius]

So if this is indeed the man-child ministry on the white horse , then they have an apostolic ministry. They will send out the "two witnesses" the modern day disciples, the "arrows" . So the "bow" is empty.

(Zech.9:13) For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim (Ephraim was called in Hebrew the “fulness of nations [Gentiles]†So God likes the image of an bow and arrow when He is talking about "sending forth" This does fit in perfectly with what is going to happen. The Man-child sending forth the disciples and then the Word will be preached in "all the world" (because disciples today are really able to be in all the world for the first time , and they are )

 

[Cornelius]

What does the “white horse†represent?

As the mind of man uses his body as a beast of burden to do his work, so the horse is harnessed as
a beast of burden to do his work. The horse represents the body or beast.(Ps.147:10) He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: He taketh no pleasure in the legs of a man. This verse could well fit the other horse riders in revelation six, but to ride a white horse symbolizes completely harnessing the strength of your body and mind to do righteous work. The horse carries the rider like the “legs of a man†carry the Man-child. Overcomers ride white horses because their body submits to the
spiritual man who submits to the Holy Spirit.

So we the overcomer picture here. They are in authority, and they have sent out the "arrows".

 

[Cornelius]

Remember that the Man-child is actually Jesus in His people. At this time, there is no difference between them. We see Jesus opening the seals and calling forth the other horses. Judgments come riding out.

Do we have another Man-child type that calls our judgments?

Of course we have. We see Moses (a type of Man-child) calling forth the judgment over Egypt.(type for the world) We are now as a church (for those who have eyes to see this) in bondage to the world. God's church has been taken captive and now we are again into: 'Let My people go"

We are really in for the most incredible time in the history of this planet.

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind

Nor is it the man child. This rider is "given a crown" and arrives on a "white horse" in imitation of Jesus, whose Advent is written of in [Revelation 19:11-16].

This rider carries a bow. Not a bow, as a weapon, but an imitation rainbow. Jesus is surrounded by a true rainbow but this rider has an imitation...pretending to be Jesus. This isn't Jesus or the man child.


* Bow # 5115 toxon, from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):

You're missing the whole point of the verse if you are focusing on this "bow" denoting an imitation Jesus (not being the true Shekinah surrounding the Savior). That aspect is completely irrelevant to the context. Notice the rider also carries a stephanos, a crown of laurel, or a crown of victory like an athlete (in the Greek Olympics) would wear. The rider is not carrying a diadema which denotes authority or dominion. Paul associates this crown (stephanos) with the reward of victory in competition in 1 Corinthians 9:25. The crowns on the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 12:3 and the crowns on the horns of the beast rising up from the sea in Revelation 13:1 are diadema in Greek, not stephanos.

Understanding the syntax of the Greek in the proper context of the verse as it relates to toxon, it's very clear the horseman rode out of Heaven’s temple carrying a winner's ribbon, an ornamental bow made of fabric which would be offered to those who overcome the world through faith in Christ.

It is most relevant. We are being told who he is by his fake crown, fake bow and the fact that he too rides a white horse. He, as the 2nd beast, will wear the crown of a king. There is no difference given in Strong's as to the definition of "crown" in the New Testament. They are....#4735 stephanos, including the crown our Savior wears. And....no where is it written that these horsemen "rode out of heaven's temple," or even out of heaven for that matter.

He is the fake king so he has a fake crown. This is no "winner's ribbon" he carries.

• * 11 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is all part of the deception.

 

[Cornelius]

I do not see fake anything !

 

[Benoni]

I like Benoni, there is a very deep spiritual meaning to the name that most religious people would not like.

But you are so wrong. The Book of Revelation is a spiritual Book for John was in spirit on the Lord's day. That which is spiritual is with in us, and it is symbolic too and is not literal.

That's a catchy analysis Benoni (almost as "cute" as "Baby Steps" ), but there is a bit more to Revelation than the psychology man's inner war (though that is part of it). Paul addressed the subject of living in the Spirit exhaustively, yet he was very specific when separating the struggles of the inner man with the events surrounding the Advent of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Thessalonians 2; etc.).

Ayyyy Benny Benoni ayyy.... (I'm from New York, so I'm saying your name like someone from da Bronx ). This thread is being transferred over to the Seven Seals thread. So let’s continue over there.

 

[Osgiliath]

I like Benoni, there is a very deep spiritual meaning to the name that most religious people would not like.

So do I (notice I called your first name Benny). I was just having a little fun. Can't you picture Robert De Niro yelling out....... "ayy Benoni!" :D. And yes, there is a very deep spiritual meaning to the name.

 

[Benoni]

Not a problem?

So what does Benoni speak of?

I like Benoni, there is a very deep spiritual meaning to the name that most religious people would not like.

So do I (notice I called your first name Benny). I was just having a little fun. Can't you picture Robert De Niro yelling out....... "ayy Benoni!" :D. And yes, there is a very deep spiritual meaning to the name.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
He is the fake king so he has a fake crown. This is no "winner's ribbon" he carries.


This is all part of the deception.

I think you have already been deceived whirlwind. Your analysis of the First Seal is completely unbiblical; and the timing could not be further from the truth. I know of a pastor who teaches this (and he also teaches the serpent seed doctrine). Taking note of your "apples in the cart" reference to the Garden of Eden in another thread, I am suspecting you know of whom I speak, and follow this certain pastors doctrine. I could be wrong, but I know of no other who teaches this "seals are not in order", "seals are only foreknowledge, but not actual events" doctrine. Be careful WW :yes.

You said we are NOW living in the period of the Fifth Seal? And the Sixth Seal and the First Seal are reversed? Interpretation is one thing, but do you realize you are literally CHANGING the Word of God by reversing the Seals? In the Greek, it is only the First Seal that is not numbered, so it MUST be the FIRST; and the rest are specifically numbered, corresponding to specific events, taking place at specific times. I would also like to know how you conclude we are presently living in the Fifth Seal. Which Seals have already happened? And what is your conclusive evidence that verifies this, and leads you to believe that we are now in the Fifth Seal?

Also, if the Seals are simply a "foreknowledge" of what will happen, but not the actual events themselves, how is it that we are limited to the knowledge of the Fifth Seal, but not the others? Christ already foretold us all things, did He not? In that case, we should already have that "foreknowledge" that you say the Seals provide; so what would be the significance of "opening" the Seals. Each time a new Seal is broken open, does this jar our memory about the "actual" events that transpire during the Trumpets and the Vials? If the Seals are simply foreknowledge of the actual events that are ALREADY WRITTEN about in the Bible, what's the point of "opening them" at different times?

I hope you can see that your analysis makes absolutely no logical sense when you answer these questions.

 

[Vic C.]

I do not see fake anything !

I know, neither do I. There is nothing fake about a crown of victory.

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind
He is the fake king so he has a fake crown. This is no "winner's ribbon" he carries.


This is all part of the deception.

I think you have already been deceived whirlwind. Your analysis of the First Seal is completely unbiblical; and the timing could not be further from the truth. I know of a pastor who teaches this (and he also teaches the serpent seed doctrine). Taking note of your "apples in the cart" reference to the Garden of Eden in another thread, I am suspecting you know of whom I speak, and follow this certain pastors doctrine. I could be wrong, but I know of no other who teaches this "seals are not in order", "seals are only foreknowledge, but not actual events" doctrine. Be careful WW :yes.

Osgiliath, please consider the words "deceived" and "unbiblical." When they are used I feel it is necessary to point out exactly how what I have written is unbiblical as well as pointing out why you believe I am deceived. And understand....because you disagree with me in no way does either. I disagree with you and yet I don't accuse you of being deceived and unbiblical. I haven't quoted anyone except the Word of God on this subject so bringing any other man into this is a waste of time, at least to my way of thinking.

As far as the "apple cart" do you see any mention of an apple in Genesis? It is a reference to enormous treasures being in the account of the beginning that wait there for children of God to find, or actually, for Him to reveal. Those treasures are not taught in Sunday School classes but it doesn't mean they aren't there.

That being said....I like you Osgiliath and believe we can learn from each other so, to me, it is important to agree or disagree on issues with love toward each other. I don't believe you meant what you said in a derogatory way as the tone of your edited words was softer but I wanted to explain how the words can be taken.

You said we are NOW living in the period of the Fifth Seal? And the Sixth Seal and the First Seal are reversed? Interpretation is one thing, but do you realize you are literally CHANGING the Word of God by reversing the Seals? In the Greek, it is only the First Seal that is not numbered, so it MUST be the FIRST; and the rest are specifically numbered, corresponding to specific events, taking place at specific times. I would also like to know how you conclude we are presently living in the Fifth Seal. Which Seals have already happened? And what is your conclusive evidence that verifies this, and leads you to believe that we are now in the Fifth Seal?

But I'm not changing or reversing anything. The seals tell us what will happen and we are told at the very beginning of the telling that Satan comes first pretending to be our Savior. We are to SEAL that knowledge in our brain. Then, at the opening of the sixth seal, we are told how it will appear when the trumpet sounds. Please notice that at the opening of the sixth seal [Rev.6:12-14] there is no mention of Satan at all....just the events of his arrival (which are also imitations of the arrival of Jesus, just like the crown, bow and horse).

It doesn't matter if the seal isn't numbered "first" in Hebrew, Greek or English...the fact remains it is referred to as "one of the seals." As the others are numbered second, third, etc. don't you find it odd that it isn't so named...."first seal?" It isn't that the sixth and first are reversed or that the first one isn't indeed the first seal but....it isn't named that for a purpose. They are not reversed but are the telling, the sealing, of one event....the arrival of Satan.

You ask....."I would also like to know how you conclude we are presently living in the Fifth Seal. Which Seals have already happened? And what is your conclusive evidence that verifies this, and leads you to believe that we are now in the Fifth Seal?"

My opinion only from what is written. The second seal tells us of peace being taken from the earth and people killing each other with the "great sword." The great sword is Satan's twisted version of His Holy Word. That "great sword" has been slaying folks for some time now. The third seal is about the same thing....but here it is put in terms of "wheat, barley, oil and wine." Wheat and barley represent people...souls both sides try to bring to their respective sides. Notice that "thou hurt not the oil and wine," which represent Jesus and those that follow Him, the man child.

The fourth seal, the pale horse (greenish) is Death and Hell. God gives power to them over "the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." The beasts of the earth are Satan's workers. They control the four hidden dynasties....Politics, Education, Finance and Religion. They have been hard at work for some time now.

The fifth seal, which is where I believe we are now....has everyone waiting for the time Satan arrives. Waiting for his great tribulation which will happen in...the generation of the fig tree which began in 1947.

Also, if the Seals are simply a "foreknowledge" of what will happen, but not the actual events themselves, how is it that we are limited to the knowledge of the Fifth Seal, but not the others? Christ already foretold us all things, did He not? In that case, we should already have that "foreknowledge" that you say the Seals provide; so what would be the significance of "opening" the Seals. Each time a new Seal is broken open, does this jar our memory about the "actual" events that transpire during the Trumpets and the Vials? If the Seals are simply foreknowledge of the actual events that are ALREADY WRITTEN about in the Bible, what's the point of "opening them" at different times?

I hope you can see that your analysis makes absolutely no logical sense when you answer these questions.

It isn't that the seals aren't the actual events but that the opening of the seal is the telling of the event...not when it will happen, just that it will happen. At this time....(we have been told what will be) but not all have yet happened.

The opening of the seals is telling us what will be, what will happen before the trumpets sound and the vials are poured. The seals and vials are not all about the same events. The vials are His wrath [15:7]...not the happening of the seals. After the opening of the seventh seal, a yet future event, THEN the angels are given the trumpets. [8:1-2] Then they sound and THEN the vials are poured. Satan's locust army isn't released until the fifth angel sounds [9:1]

I see the time of when the angel with the golden censer "took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake," [8:5] (which is BEFORE the trumpets sound) as when the sixth seal happens. That is Satan's time. That tells of his arrival. Compare it to [6:12-14] which is the sixth seal....they are the same event and remember...no trumpet has yet sounded.

At the opening of the seventh seal [8:1-2] the angels are given trumpets...so they haven't yet sounded. We are shown that when "the fifth angel sounded," the bottomless pit was opened...the beginning of the five months of great tribulation. Compare it to the sixth seal [6:12-14] and when the golden censer is cast into earth...they are the same event. However, although Satan's army is released he himself doesn't arrive until the sixth trumpet sounds....sixth vial, sixth seal and sixth trumpet...666. They are all about him.

• * Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God. Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates." And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

What horsemen? The four horsemen of Revelation 6. The horsemen on a white horse, red horse, black horse and pale horse. They are all of Satan. This again is written in imitation of Christ. Notice the similarities....

• * Revelation 6:17-7:1 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (3) Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

"After these things," meaning the things written of in chapter six which led to Satan's release. The four angels written of in [9:13] when the sixth angel sounded are not the same ones that are held back until "the servants of our God" are sealed. The first group spiritually slay souls for Satan. The second group hold back the wrath of God until the sealing. The sealing goes on during the tribulation when others are being spiritually slayed by Satan's folks.


Is that confusing enough? :crazy :yes

 

[whirlwind]

I do not see fake anything !

I know, neither do I. There is nothing fake about a crown of victory.

But...is it a "crown of victory" he wears? That isn't written. Nor is it written the rider on the white horse of [Rev. 6] arrives from heaven. But...the arrival of the True King tells us.....

• * Revelation 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse; and He That sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
  
  19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.
  
  19:13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
  
  19:16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Two different arrivals. Two different Kings...the King/the king...the Rock/the rock...The Morning Star/Lucifer...The Lamb/the lamb...and it goes on and on. Revelation 6 is about the great deceiver...not our Savior.