The Seven Seals

[whirlwind]

Two things about your above paragraph. First, the rider on the white horse WAS given a sword, a great sword, "and there was given unto him a great sword." [Rev.6:4] The sword used by both sides in this battle is God's Holy Word. He is given the sword of the Lord but he uses it to deceive.

Ok, I see a problem. Lets go through this passage.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

You're right Vic...it is the second rider that is given the sword. :splat

What isn't clear about this? (below)

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

No sword for him. He had a bow and it was a(stephanos) crown, not a sword, which was given to this rider. But wait...

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

The rider on the Red horse, not the White horse, gets a sword.

How can that not be any clearer? You need to read the whole verse and not pluck out the last portion of it and attribute it to the rider on the White horse.

[quote:1same6xs]I don't know about pre-millennial futurist pre-wrath, etc. stuff. His Word, not man, tells us what will be. We know God will send strong delusion...it is written. We know the seals of Revelation 6 tell us about when events happen...it is written. As we know Satan is going to arrive to tempt the world, and will succeed, where is he written of in Revelation 6?

Yes, HIS word, not man's and I agree. But that shouldn't be used as an escape hatch to ignore those who know more that we. Teaching and prophecy are gifts, not everyone is given those gifts. I cannot sit here and say I know God's Word better than others. I will speak up when I seriously disagree with something, no matter who it is. No offense, but I am sure you did not come up with all of this on your own either.

You are looking for Satan to arrive to deceive; you missed it by some 2,000 years. Longer actually. John, Peter and the others knew this. Paul knew this. Tribulation of the believers started way back when also. So did apostasy and one look around shows us apostasy is so rampant among many people who claim to be believers that they have become addicted to the tickle in their ear.

There is your deception and delusion. It's been happening over a long period of time and not something that will happen in a short, seven year span. That, would be way too obvious. Doing it over the course of history... now that is a plan an adversary would wrap it's heard around.

The mafia had a saying, an old proverb of theirs:

La vendetta es una minestra che se mangia fredda

We know it as:

Revenge is a dish best served cold. ;)[/quote:1same6xs]


The deception is ongoing...since the garden, but I believe Jesus tells us it will be much greater at the end of days....

• * Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (24) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

I don't think we have missed the deception at all. As bad as it is now...Jesus tells us it will be much worse.

 

[Vic C.]

The deception is ongoing...since the garden, but I believe Jesus tells us it will be much greater at the end of days....

* Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (24) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


I don't think we have missed the deception at all. As bad as it is now...Jesus tells us it will be much worse.

I agree. Deception, persecutions and overall delusions will continue to grow exponentially.

 

[researcher]

The deception is ongoing...since the garden, but I believe Jesus tells us it will be much greater at the end of days....

* Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (24) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


I don't think we have missed the deception at all. As bad as it is now...Jesus tells us it will be much worse.

I agree. Deception, persecutions and overall delusions will continue to grow exponentially.

The whole sun, moon darkened thing... is it perhaps symbolic?

Eze 32:2 Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou wast likened unto a young lion of the nations: yet art thou as a monster in the seas; and thou didst break forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.
Eze 32:3 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will spread out my net upon thee with a company of many peoples; and they shall bring thee up in my net.
Eze 32:4 And I will leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the birds of the heavens to settle upon thee, and I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with thee.
Eze 32:5 And I will lay thy flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with thy height.
Eze 32:6 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the watercourses shall be full of thee.
Eze 32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.
Eze 32:8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord Jehovah.
Eze 32:9 I will also vex the hearts of many peoples, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.
Eze 32:10 Yea, I will make many peoples amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall.
Eze 32:11 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.

Sun & moon being darkened seems to be used when nations are destroyed. Joel chapter 2 has the same happening with Israel but it looks to be a local event. Is it literal?

 

[Cornelius]

Two things about your above paragraph. First, the rider on the white horse WAS given a sword, a great sword, "and there was given unto him a great sword." [Rev.6:4] The sword used by both sides in this battle is God's Holy Word. He is given the sword of the Lord but he uses it to deceive.



As "C" taught...the tail of the dragon are false prophets. Those false teachers use the great sword to deceive or..."the power is in their mouth."[/b]

LOL, no do not make me guilty of this teaching. !!!! I do not believe for one minute that the Sword mentioned here is a false Word. Also: Logically one cannot use the Word as a false Sword, you use leaven for that. The Sword is only the Sword , when it is unleavened. Add traditions and leaven, and you have a word and not the Word.

The Bible does say that the tail is the prophet the teaches lies Isa 9:15 ........the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.


Please notice lies , next to "no lie" .

Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

I do not think that the sword mentioned in Rev 6 regarding the red horse is the Word. The context tells us its about peace leaving the earth and people are going to physically die.(sword) (live by the sword, die by the sword , also have a literal meaning: Death )

 

[Vic C.]

It could be symbolic, it could be physical or it could be both or a combination of both.

Joel 2, Matthew 24 and a good portion of Revelation could all be pointing to events during the Jewish revolt and subsequent destruction of Jerusalem or a time in our future or both. Similar cosmic events have been documented in the first century and since. It is possible to have a solar eclipse, a lunar eclipse with a red moon http://chinut.blogspot.com/2007/09/red- ... magic.html and an event that can darken skies to a point where stars would not be visible to the naked eye... and all within a couple of month's time-frame.

Not everything has to be symbolic or allegorical.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
But the great tribulation isn't taught in the fifth seal. It is in the sixth and we learn from "one of the seals" that was first opened by the Lamb.

As I have specifically demonstrated using a lot of Scripture, the Great Tribulation begins in the FOURTH SEAL (go back and read my post and the Bible references concerning God's four deadly judgments and the Fourth Seal). The Tribulation continues through the FIFTH SEAL, and Jesus returns when the SIXTH SEAL is opened. And as I mentioned, the SECOND SEAL is the distribution of God's Word AFTER the authority of the Church was "broken" and the Gospel of Jesus could be spread worldwide without the FLOOD of persecution that existed throughout the Dark Ages. Do you think God would leave out 2,000 years of Church History in His Word, forgetting about the countless martyrs who braved persecution beyond human comprehension? I don't think so.

Notice the relation to the SECOND SEAL:

"And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. (Revelation 6:3,4)

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Ephesians 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit..."

Originally posted by whirlwind
The seals are "not from God," (or rather not about God) but are about Satan.

Where in the Bible is this Whirlwind? You are inventing your own book of Revelation. Here's the Sixth Seal (numbered by God):

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You do realize that you are calling THE LAMB Satan, don't you? Even though this is not intentional on your part, I would be careful and get my facts straight nonetheless.

Also, the SEALS are much larger in scope than you are implying (i.e. you say they are about Satan). Nonsense. The breaking of the Seven Seals are seven campaigns, with each campaign having a set of unique disclosures, processes, objectives and results that culminate in the full Revelation of Jesus Christ. You're looking at the Seals as if they are specific events (like the Trumpets). The Seals are not the same as the Trumpets, the Seals are "processes" that Jesus uses to win as many souls as possible. The Seals (the Trumpets and Vials are included "within" the Seals) are campaigns that will carefully separate the sheep from the goats. Haven't you ever thought about "the Book" that is sealed with the Seven Seals; and why it is not opened until the last seal is broken?

 

[Cornelius]

I don't think we have missed the deception at all. As bad as it is now...Jesus tells us it will be much worse. [/b]

Can you think of a greater deception than the "letter" ? It has the ability to cover the whole Harlot church. It will leave them, thinking they are right (important for them to believe that, regarding their role in the end-times) and so they will feel justified persecuting those who walk in the spirit of the Word.

The letter and the spirit are the opposite poles in Christianity.

Rev 19:10 And I fell down before his feet to worship him. And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren that hold the testimony of Jesus: worship God; for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Its the spirit, not the letter of prophecy. Many, many Christians only read the letter and do not understand the spirit of prophecy and yet the Bible says that it is the spirit of prophecy that is actually the testimony of Jesus !

So the letter will kill. It will also kill in real life, through persecution . Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony ]which they held:

I know some of you will see this ! The letter will really kill the spirit.

 

[whirlwind]

Two things about your above paragraph. First, the rider on the white horse WAS given a sword, a great sword, "and there was given unto him a great sword." [Rev.6:4] The sword used by both sides in this battle is God's Holy Word. He is given the sword of the Lord but he uses it to deceive.



As "C" taught...the tail of the dragon are false prophets. Those false teachers use the great sword to deceive or..."the power is in their mouth."[/b]

LOL, no do not make me guilty of this teaching. !!!! I do not believe for one minute that the Sword mentioned here is a false Word. Also: Logically one cannot use the Word as a false Sword, you use leaven for that. The Sword is only the Sword , when it is unleavened. Add traditions and leaven, and you have a word and not the Word.

The Bible does say that the tail is the prophet the teaches lies Isa 9:15 ........the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.


Please notice lies , next to "no lie" .

Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

I do not think that the sword mentioned in Rev 6 regarding the red horse is the Word. The context tells us its about peace leaving the earth and people are going to physically die.(sword) (live by the sword, die by the sword , also have a literal meaning: Death )

Revelation 14 is about the 144,000....not the white horse rider. In their mouth is no lie but not in that of the riders in chapter 6.

What are the lies the prophet teaches, the prophet that is the tail?" They are lies about the Word....the Sword. How does Satan and his men deceive? They pretend to be Christian and teach the Word of God but, as you say, it is full of leaven. They are given the sword with which to kill. Spiritually kill. They take peace from the earth and kill each other spiritually. What is the "earth?" Who is "peace?"

• * Ephesians 2:14 For He is our peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

The riders take peace, Jesus, from the earth....people. All four of the riders take the peace by conquering the earth.

 

[Cornelius]

What are the lies the prophet teaches, the prophet that is the tail?" They are lies about the Word....the Sword.

That's right..........."about".......its not the (s)Word.

C

 

[Cornelius]

Revelation 14 is about the 144,000....not the white horse rider.

That depends on your view. I believe they are the Rider.

C

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind
But the great tribulation isn't taught in the fifth seal. It is in the sixth and we learn from "one of the seals" that was first opened by the Lamb.

As I have specifically demonstrated using a lot of Scripture, the Great Tribulation begins in the FOURTH SEAL (go back and read my post and the Bible references concerning God's four deadly judgments and the Fourth Seal).

Dearest Osgiliath...As I have specifically demonstrated...USING A LOT OF SCRIPTURE, the great tribulation DOES NOT begin at the fourth seal. Please go back and read my post. :yes

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
Dearest Osgiliath...As I have specifically demonstrated...USING A LOT OF SCRIPTURE, the great tribulation DOES NOT begin at the fourth seal. Please go back and read my post.

Already read it 3 times (just to make sure I read it correctly; and I did). You are literally re-inventing the book of Revelation to your liking; way beyond the "typical" leaven. As the late E.W. Bullinger said:

"When it comes to the Bible; why do people insist that God doesn't mean what He says, and say what He means? From whence comes this spirit?"

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind
Dearest Osgiliath...As I have specifically demonstrated...USING A LOT OF SCRIPTURE, the great tribulation DOES NOT begin at the fourth seal. Please go back and read my post.

Already read it 3 times (just to make sure I read it correctly; and I did). You are literally re-inventing the book of Revelation to your liking; way beyond the "typical" leaven. As the late E.W. Bullinger said:

"When it comes to the Bible; why do people insist that God doesn't mean what He says, and say what He means? From whence comes this spirit?"

Then we have met an impasse for to me God says something completely different than what you believe but....I don't see this as a salvation issue...just one of understanding. So, instead of :bicker or of we, as children of God, will allow this issue to go. :yes

 

[Cornelius]

The riders take peace, Jesus, from the earth....people. All four of the riders take the peace by conquering the earth. [/b]

You know I am your brother and friend and I do not want to hurt you when I say: You are getting the types and shadows a little mixed up. We must always remember this scripture: Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth Types and shadows "hold hands" throughout the Bible. They work together. The picture is always the same, just the players differ.

They must all fit into this larger picture:

Jesus came as the model, or mould-Son, so that the Father can make many sons. All history is about this simple fact.

Now we must place history and future into this perspective. God gave types and shadows that plays out our future again and again : Jesus came, then He continues to come (in His saints) until He manifests.The Satan is used by God to turn up the heat, so more people can come into the Kingdom and more sons can be produced. Satan has a real important role to play, without him, no sons will be formed. He is the fire under the furnace, that melts the dross, so that gold can come forth (vessels of honor) Revelation is the last of the "fire".God uses all in the playing field:
1) Man child ministry: Heads up the Body of Christ. This ministry contains the five fold ministry , but this time there are 144000 and they have been perfected (When that which is perfect shall come.....)

2) The Bride and witnesses and "virgins and guests , go our into all the world preaching the gospel.

3) The Harlot: She is another "fire" used in the purification of the saints. She betrays them, and persecutes them. She is the reason the goats get out of the church. (Its too hot for them, too much persecution ) So she is used to cleanse the church. She ultimately serves a good purpose.

3) Same with the false prophet (contained in the Harlot) They speak the same message. They both are used to cleanse the church

and so forth: ALL serving one purpose: Bringing out the Fruit. Producing SONS of God.

When God has achieved this, He will stop the tribulation after the seven years and now its time for a new beginning. Sons have been produced and now the "vessels of dishonor " serves no purpose anymore. Now God's wrath must come like a cleansing fire, because all must go, so that the new can come.

Its really all about Jesus Christ IN US: manifesting in and through us.Its all about us being LIKE him 100%

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

OK, there is MUCH more to it, but this is the simplest way I can put it. God wrote a whole Book about it, so I cannot do it in one posting.

 

[whirlwind]

The riders take peace, Jesus, from the earth....people. All four of the riders take the peace by conquering the earth. [/b]

You know I am your brother and friend and I do not want to hurt you when I say: You are getting the types and shadows a little mixed up. We must always remember this scripture: Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth Types and shadows "hold hands" throughout the Bible. They work together. The picture is always the same, just the players differ.

C....disagreeing with me doesn't "hurt," nor does correction, as long as I am allowed to disagree and correct too. And...usually I don't get too terribly angry. :twopistols

They must all fit into this larger picture:

Jesus came as the model, or mould-Son, so that the Father can make many sons. All history is about this simple fact.

Now we must place history and future into this perspective. God gave types and shadows that plays out our future again and again : Jesus came, then He continues to come (in His saints) until He manifests.The Satan is used by God to turn up the heat, so more people can come into the Kingdom and more sons can be produced. Satan has a real important role to play, without him, no sons will be formed. He is the fire under the furnace, that melts the dross, so that gold can come forth (vessels of honor) Revelation is the last of the "fire".God uses all in the playing field:
1) Man child ministry: Heads up the Body of Christ. This ministry contains the five fold ministry , but this time there are 144000 and they have been perfected (When that which is perfect shall come.....)

2) The Bride and witnesses and "virgins and guests , go our into all the world preaching the gospel.

3) The Harlot: She is another "fire" used in the purification of the saints. She betrays them, and persecutes them. She is the reason the goats get out of the church. (Its too hot for them, too much persecution ) So she is used to cleanse the church. She ultimately serves a good purpose.

3) Same with the false prophet (contained in the Harlot) They speak the same message. They both are used to cleanse the church

and so forth: ALL serving one purpose: Bringing out the Fruit. Producing SONS of God.

When God has achieved this, He will stop the tribulation after the seven years and now its time for a new beginning. Sons have been produced and now the "vessels of dishonor " serves no purpose anymore. Now God's wrath must come like a cleansing fire, because all must go, so that the new can come.

Its really all about Jesus Christ IN US: manifesting in and through us.Its all about us being LIKE him 100%

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

OK, there is MUCH more to it, but this is the simplest way I can put it. God wrote a whole Book about it, so I cannot do it in one posting.

Consider too that as Jesus manifests in the sons of God, His man child, Satan also manifests in his sons.

• * John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[Cornelius]

Consider too that as Jesus manifests in the sons of God, His man child, Satan also manifests in his sons.

• * John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

That is 100% correct. I have no problem with this. I am just trying to point out that what normally goes with the end-time teaching, is that most think that there will be one charming man, that will as a single person, be THE antichrist. We have past the time of the "single person" and we are now in the time of the "Group" or Body or Corporate. All single types are now groups in the end times. Everything has moved to to Planet-scale. The WHOLE earth is now before God and the WHOLE earth is divided up into spiritual "people" that represents the whole. There is a Man-child, a Bride, Two witnesses, a false prophet, an Antichrist, a Harlot, a Dragon, a Beast, a City and a Great city. Like a Broadway play with actors on stage, they tell a story.But the letter has crept in and made some of the actors into REAL people and then everything started getting confusing and muddled up.

Daniel also saw the characters in this play. God spoke this always as a parable. He hides it from the "letter-people" they can read what I am saying in plain daylight and they will still not "get it". They will just think :"Oh he knows nothing " and pass me by. This too is meant to be.
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[whirlwind]

Consider too that as Jesus manifests in the sons of God, His man child, Satan also manifests in his sons.

• * John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

That is 100% correct. I have no problem with this. I am just trying to point out that what normally goes with the end-time teaching, is that most think that there will be one charming man, that will as a single person, be THE antichrist. We have past the time of the "single person" and we are now in the time of the "Group" or Body or Corporate. All single types are now groups in the end times. Everything has moved to to Planet-scale. The WHOLE earth is now before God and the WHOLE earth is divided up into spiritual "people" that represents the whole. There is a Man-child, a Bride, Two witnesses, a false prophet, an Antichrist, a Harlot, a Dragon, a Beast, a City and a Great city. Like a Broadway play with actors on stage, they tell a story.But the letter has crept in and made some of the actors into REAL people and then everything started getting confusing and muddled up.

Daniel also saw the characters in this play. God spoke this always as a parable. He hides it from the "letter-people" they can read what I am saying in plain daylight and they will still not "get it". They will just think :"Oh he knows nothing " and pass me by. This too is meant to be.
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Consider the type we find for Satan in the book of Kings....

1 Kings 1:5 Then Adonijah the son of Haggith exalted himself, saying, "I will be king:" and he prepared him chariots and horsemen, and fifty men to run before him.

1:9 And Adonijah slew sheep and oxen and fat cattle by the stone of Zoheleth, which is by En-rogel, and called all his brethren the king's sons, and all the men of Judah the king's servants: But Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah, and the mighty men, and Solomon his brother, he called not.

The "stone of Zoheleth" is...the serpent stone. :yes This historic individual exalted himself above the true King. This is a type for the man of sin, the serpent, the son of perdition............

• * 11 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This individual will "prepare men to run before him," before his arrival! As Christ prepares us and is in us so does he prepare his men. Notice that he (Satan) called all his brethren and others but not "Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah, and the mighty men, and Solomon his brother." Why not them?

They are the elect and he was instructed...."see thou hurt not the oil and the wine." [Revelation 6:6]. The "mighty men" are the man child. Solomon is symbolic for Jesus and Nathan the prophet and Benaiah I believe represent the two witnesses.

This type tells me that there is indeed an individual entity, Satan, as well as a group of his worshippers.

 

[Cornelius]

You are misunderstanding me when I say "not an individual" I am referring to an individual MAN.

I agree that Satan is behind it and that he too is forming his body on earth. Christ's body is called the Body of Christ and Satan's body is the anti-Christ. Both are groups. But both groups are driven by 1) Christ and2)Satan and his team.

Look, here in Daniel we see that its a prince that is behind it.

Dan 9:26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

Who or what are the princes?

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

So the princes are angelic beings (Bad and Good) Both are referred to as princes.
Now look again at Dan 9:26 and see that its the .......people of the prince..........that shall come.This already happened in history , but that was the type for what is going to happen now.

So demon princes are driving hordes of unbelievers. They are demon possessed :

Rev 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.

Scary picture indeed !

 

[whirlwind]

You are misunderstanding me when I say "not an individual" I am referring to an individual MAN.

I agree that Satan is behind it and that he too is forming his body on earth. Christ's body is called the Body of Christ and Satan's body is the anti-Christ. Both are groups. But both groups are driven by 1) Christ and2)Satan and his team.

Look, here in Daniel we see that its a prince that is behind it.

Dan 9:26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

Who or what are the princes?

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

So the princes are angelic beings (Bad and Good) Both are referred to as princes.
Now look again at Dan 9:26 and see that its the .......people of the prince..........that shall come.This already happened in history , but that was the type for what is going to happen now.

So demon princes are driving hordes of unbelievers. They are demon possessed :

Rev 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.

Scary picture indeed !

Agreed. "The people of the prince that shall come," are his band of merry men. Perhaps I am not understanding where you picture the "prince" in this. After the people of the prince destroy the city, etc. then...."he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." [Dan.9:27]

I see that confirmation as the time he arrives pretending to be Jesus. The sacrifice and oblation stop to Jesus and are transferred to him, the fake. The covenenant is then with him....not Jesus. The only way that can happen, that folks will do that, is to be deceived into it. He will be the instead of christ...looking, acting and pretending to be our Savior.

This is much as the type shown us in the above King's quotes. He sends his men ahead and then he himself sits as king. The covenant is made, the sacrifice and oblation are then given to him. Therein we see the danger of the rapture doctrine.

I wanted to ask too...why do you see the man child as the 144,000? Do you understand the witnesses and the man child to be the same group?

 

[researcher]

Rev 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.

Scary picture indeed !

That verse was about the people in Jerusalem/Israel though. They became possessed before the city was destroyed.

Jesus told them it would happen to them 40 years prior. ;)

Mat 12:43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first.
Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation.

;)