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The Seven Seals

  • Thread starter Thread starter Osgiliath
  • Start date Start date
Now I wasted some time and got sidetracked into reading some of what people have said regarding :

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
Of course the major church has apparently edited this verse from their Bibles or just read over it at some speed. LOL But what I see in some of these articles is that man has the ability to take any truth, mix himself and his own ideas into it, and create something evil from it. So now , many Christian avoid many Biblical realities, because of the FRUIT of men. People have fallen into the trap of judging the Word by the fruit of man. How sad is that !

The enemy is succeeding in keeping many people away from Biblical truth, because he has created this fear zone around it, by using man.

You must admit it is a clever ploy and its working !

C
 
Eeeew, this is enough to send anybody running for the woods. These guys are seriously off the track. But does that mean that everything they teach is wrong. After all they still teach that Jesus is the Son of God and that we are saved through our faith in Him (So obviously I cannot stop being a Christian now, just because they also believe that Jesus is the Son of God !. Of course not. BUt I do not have to follow them, do I. No, but I can see the truth in the Bible and I can forget about man . Praise God )


Stevens even said that communication with Angels and deceased believers had already become possible. Paul Cain and Bob Jones have been talking with Angels regularly for decades, of course. Stevens claimed communication himself with the "great cloud of witnesses."

We need to note in passing that Francis Frangipane, Royal Cronquist, and Mel Bailey, former Apostles of The Walk, are now prominent figures in the Neo-Prophetic Movement. Frangipane has joined forces with KCF/ MVF and is now publishing books and traveling the country encouraging people to conquer demonic "principalities" in order to usher in the Kingdom Now.
 
Vic C. said:
Osgiliath said:
Originally posted by Cornelius
That goes against the purpose of the Man-child ministry

The "man-child ministry" is a concept invented by man, and is not Biblical. The sealing of the 144,000 (firstfruits) is what should be focused on; that is Biblical. You are advocating a presupposition; a private interpretation that is not supported (nor mentioned) in Scripture. Elegance and accuracy are two different things. Stick to what is written. This so-called "man-child" ministry is not....

... Be careful :shrug.
I agree! Os, this is also known as the Latter Rain Movement. Hiding behind a new name I see. :gah


Hi Vic,

I don't know anything about the "Latter Rain Movement," but I do know that the latter rain is written of in the Bible. I don't know anything about the "man-child ministry" except what is written in the Bible. As they are both written and both about the end of days...they are important to understand.

On another forum there was a member that constantly screamed cult about anything he himself had not learned or didn't agree with. I called him the "self appointed cult buster." Of course he was a died-in-the-wool rapture advocate so you know he has no concept of the truth. :lol I'm not saying there isn't a lot of false doctrine that leads to cults but to me, the way to deal with it is with Scripture.

We all are searching for truth and the only truth is written. We should be able to discover what is and isn't true by only discussing His Word....where that thought or teaching came from shouldn't matter. To me, no matter where something is learned...be it from the Catholic Church, the Pentecostals, television, books, etc. if it is written in His Holy Word then...it is valid. It is up to us to determine how that Word is used. I've heard it said that Satan knows Scripture better than anyone. I believe the "great sword" Satan is allowed is His Holy Word. He will twist that Word just as he did in the garden.

I guess what I am saying is...don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We should prove or disprove what we believe, or teach, with His Word.
 
The white horse rider is the manchild of rev 12. The white horse rider cannot be a false entity because a horse represents flesh and this flesh is White=purified. Now we are told that satans ministers can come as angels of light, but we are not told that their flesh can be pure. Also the instances in scripture where we see a white horse(s) are always Gods people including Jesus. To depart from every other scripture about this and say this one is false is not accurate and isnt supported by the other verses of scripture. I do agree with vic in that it is about the gospel though. The manchild will restore the fullness of the preaching of the true gospel feeding the woman in the wilderness. It is by the preaching of the true and full gospel that has been largely stolen from the church in this day that those in the wilderness will be fed and come into unity as a body and into conformity of Christ. It is by this preaching of the pure word of God to the woman in the wilderness that Their bow becomes empty because their arrows are the witnesses sent out into the world later in the GT to preach the fullness of the gospel to the ends of the earth before the end come.

On " movements" none should be part of a "movement" but we must believe and study the whole word of God and not throw out truth because a " movement" may be something partly right and partly wrong. This is what many people today, they allow the false to discourage them from the truth. Rat posion is often mentioned in these terms, how it is 99% food and 1% poison, enough to kill a rat. Does this mean we should no longer eat food because rat poison contains food? Or does it mean we seperate the posion and keep the food? The manchild is found in scripture, as well as the latter rain, and the manifest sons of God and on and on. So let us not turn up our noses because some " movements" have added a little posion into their own teachings, but let us study the word of God and discover what truth these movements added 1% poison too. Should we throw away all healing because there are fake healers? All gifts because some use them wrongly or have fake ones? Some say yes, but if we do that we are denying the word of God and the words ability to stand true no matter what people do faslely in the name of the word.
 
I don't know anything about the "Latter Rain Movement," but I do know that the latter rain is written of in the Bible.
I see latter rain as having it's fulfillment in Acts 2, you don't. Another impasse, I guess. :shrug

Of course he was a died-in-the-wool rapture advocate so you know he has no concept of the truth
Understand that I would not say that to anyone. People who believe in rapture positions are not ignorant when it comes to Scripture.
 
Vic C. said:
I don't know anything about the "Latter Rain Movement," but I do know that the latter rain is written of in the Bible.
I see latter rain as having it's fulfillment in Acts 2, you don't. Another impasse, I guess. :shrug

[quote:27igeqtt] Of course he was a died-in-the-wool rapture advocate so you know he has no concept of the truth
Understand that I would not say that to anyone. People who believe in rapture positions are not ignorant when it comes to Scripture.[/quote:27igeqtt]

Well....I deserved that. I wasn't very nice. :sorry

I agree in that we have reached another impasse on the latter rain issue. You say tomata and I say tomato, you see it in the past and I see it in the future.
:lol
 
Ok, I wasn't rebuking you. I have different beliefs concerning the rapture position. I was just stating that regardless, I still do respect their position. Why? I once held fast to the pretrib, then the prewrath positions once. :yes
 
Vic C. said:
Ok, I wasn't rebuking you. I have different beliefs concerning the rapture position. I was just stating that regardless, I still do respect their position. Why? I once held fast to the pretrib, then the prewrath positions once. :yes

If you weren't "rebuking me" you should have. :verysad When re-reading it I was struck with how harsh it sounded...because it was harsh. :oops

Thank you for bringing it to my attention and I have learned from it.
 
Vic C. said:
I don't know anything about the "Latter Rain Movement," but I do know that the latter rain is written of in the Bible.
I see latter rain as having it's fulfillment in Acts 2, you don't. Another impasse, I guess. :shrug

[quote:2g9elfp9] Of course he was a died-in-the-wool rapture advocate so you know he has no concept of the truth
Understand that I would not say that to anyone. People who believe in rapture positions are not ignorant when it comes to Scripture.[/quote:2g9elfp9]

I wouldnt say there ignorant to the bible just maybe some parts......But we all are ignorant to something in the bible.....The problem I see with rapture believers is they set themselves up for destuction,,,,,and alot of them are lost to revelation because they think they will be gone......

When satan returns if you dont have on the full armor he will find the smallest crack and bring you down and it seems that rapture believers are missing a little of that armor..........NOt only isnt the rapture true,,,we have many instuctions on what to do during this time,,,,and for the students that understand types and shadows we can clearly see from the 3 young boys that would not bow to the beast in Daniel that we will go through the tribulation.....(just like they did)
 
Interestingly enough, in my recent studies regarding the Latter Rain movement and its former teachers and current ones, I came across this claim by William Branham (one of the main influences in the Latter Rain movement):

He Opened the 7 Seals?

“And the Angels took me into that pyramid of themselves - the mysteries of God known only to them. And now, they were the messengers that come to interpret that pyramid or that Message of the secret of these Seven Seals which lays with inside the pyramid.â€Â

“We find out that during that time I saw seven Angels in a form of a pyramid that swept down and picked me up. And I was brought east to open the Seven Seals for God.†(Commission By Seven Mighty Angels 1963 "Standing in the Gap" Jefferson, IN V-6N7 Sunday 63-0623m "80").

It is Jesus who alone is worthy to open the 7 seals. He opens them according to the Bible and this even has not happened yet no matter what Branham claims.

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain4.htm
 
Hopefully this will go back to the original subject of the 7 seals.

Firstly, once the symbols of the rider on the white horse of Rev.6:2 is understood, can we then just interpret it by throwing away other relevant Scripture in God's Word? Focus on the forest is just as important as focus upon a single tree.

How many have studied the seven seals in relation to the events our Lord Jesus gave in Mark 13? They link together. And in Mark 13, what was our Lord's very first warning to His disciples upon the Mount of Olives?

Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
(KJV)

That rider on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer we are told. Does that have to be Christ then? Not necessarily. One of the reasons is because of how the description of Christ coming on a white horse in Rev.19 is of a glorious type, even the idea of including many diadems. Many Bible scholars have noted the distinction of how the white horse descriptions between Rev.6 and 19 differ. One can debate endlessly when just covering the white horse rider in Rev.6:2 by itself. Many other Scriptures related to the seven seals reveal more, and that shouldn't be left out.

The next seal about a red war horse, the 2nd, is covered in Mark 13:7;

Mark 13:7
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
(KJV)

And the 3rd and 4th seals of the black and pale horses are about the balances of commerce and famine and the beginning of sorrows, power being taken over the earth:

Mark 13:8
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
(KJV)

The 5th seal is about a time of Testimony for Christ:

Mark 13:9-10
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
(KJV)


The 6th seal is about the coming of 'a spurious Messiah' (Strong's definition of "false Christs" in v.22 - no. 5580).

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
(KJV)

Mark 13:19-23
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, "Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there"; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
(KJV)

It's very possible that our Lord Jesus gave the rider on the white horse of Rev.6:2 in such a way that it would require Bible study throughout His Word to really know how it's meant.

What about that coming false one our Lord Jesus told His disciples if they hear someone proclaiming Christ has returned, for them to not believe it? The "abomination of desolation" event does point to false idol worship by a particular false one. In relation to that abomination of desolation per the Book of Daniel, we know it's about a false one, a "vile person" who will to come to power through a small group using peace and flatteries. Per Paul in 2 Thess.2 we are told of a false one that's to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, and the brightness of Christ's coming is what destroys "that Wicked" (meaning the Wicked one). In Rev.9 we are told the locust army has a 'king' over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit, i.e., the devil. In Rev.11 we are shown that the beast that ascends up out of the bottomless pit will kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem. In Rev.13:11 forward we are told of the "another beast", meaning a second beast of Revelation, a religious beast, a certain entity, and the title of "dragon" is associated with his name which is another title for Satan. We are shown there that the whole world will worship the dragon. And even towards the end of Rev.13, we told that false one will institute a mark, and setup up a false image (idol) for the whole world to worship, similar to what the historical king of Babylon did.

I think our Lord Jesus has been very good to us with the amount information He's given that apply to those seven seals from within the rest of God's Word. I don't think He needed to declare openly who that rider on the white horse of Rev.6:2 really is.

Some may not like me bringing the "Lucifer" name point back up, but it is VERY relevant to this subject of the rider in Rev.6:2. In the original 1st edition 1611 KJV Bible, the translators put in the side margin of Isaiah 14:12 for the word 'Lucifer' the phrase "O day starre". The meaning of the Hebrew word 'heylel' which is in the manuscripts is indeed - 'morning star'. And OF COURSE those in Christ Jesus WELL KNOW there is only ONE TRUE MORNING STAR, OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (Rev.22:16). So why did God put that 'morning star' idea there in Isaiah 14:12 about Satan?

It's very simple. God was MOCKING the devil there, using the bragging words the devil was saying about himself and how he would userp God's Throne.

Isa 14:12-14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

(KJV)

The underlined part is God repeating what Satan has claimed he will do. If you're sharp, you should grasp there that Satan is actually saying he is going to set himself up as God, even upon God's Throne ("in the sides of the north", which is God's Place). That act of coveting God's Throne was how Satan originally fell in rebellion against God (Ezekiel 28).Satan has always wanted to be God, and worshiped as God since. And he is not done in that yet.

So when our Heavenly Fathers says there, "O Lucifer, son of the morning!", He is mocking Satan, because Satan wants to be Christ The True Morning Star.

Evidently the KJV translators couldn't quite bring themselves to translate Hebrew heylel plainly, which means 'morning star', because they knew that Title can only belong to Christ Jesus per Rev.22:16. So they gave the alternate rendering of "Lucifer" from the Latin which is clearly meant as the devil.

So after having studied the Old Testament Books, especially the Books of the prophets where God refers to Satan's rebellion against Him in his wanting to be The GOD, how should that Message be kept in our minds when we approach study in the New Testament, especially when our Lord Jesus and His Apostles speak of the antichrist, or the spurious messiah of Mark 13, or "that Wicked" of 2 Thess.2, or the dragon of Revelation, or the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem? Are we to just throw all that Old Testament witness about Lucifer out of memory? No, we are to always keep what "that old serpent", the little "rock", "that Wicked", the "dragon", that "man of sin", the "son of perdition", that "angel of the bottomless pit", that beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit, that king in the pit called Apollyon and "Abaddon", in mind for what his ultimate aim is, the coveting of God's Throne, which means Christ's Throne especially.
 
So veteran, are you also (as whirlwind does) saying the Seals are 'out of order' as presented in Revelation? In other words; is the First Seal actually the Sixth; and vice-versa, etc? Where is your beginning and ending point regarding the Seals? If the Sixth is the First, when did they begin, and when do they end? What specific event corresponding to each Seal can be verified? How do the Trumpets relate to the Seals? Evidence? If we are presently experiencing the events of the Fifth Trumpet, explain how. Give explicit Scriptural details. The Olivet Discourse speaks of false religion in its introduction, not the false messiah. False teaching has been prevalent since the days of Acts, and throughout Church history. Where is the Biblical evidence for your assumptions? Like the full-preterists, you have nothing but presupposition, and a theory not backed by Scripture (in fact, is out of alignment). I'm open minded; but please; just give me some Biblical facts.
 
Osgiliath said:
So veteran, are you also (as whirlwind does) saying the Seals are 'out of order' as presented in Revelation? In other words; is the First Seal actually the Sixth; and vice-versa, etc? Where is your beginning and ending point regarding the Seals? If the Sixth is the First, when did they begin, and when do they end? What specific event corresponding to each Seal can be verified? How do the Trumpets relate to the Seals? Evidence? If we are presently experiencing the events of the Fifth Trumpet, explain how. Give explicit Scriptural details. The Olivet Discourse speaks of false religion in its introduction, not the false messiah. False teaching has been prevalent since the days of Acts, and throughout Church history. Where is the Biblical evidence for your assumptions? Like the full-preterists, you have nothing but presupposition, and a theory not backed by Scripture (in fact, is out of alignment). I'm open minded; but please; just give me some Biblical facts.

Whirlwind said what he said. Did it sound like I was repeating him?

Tell me exactly what it is you think I was saying, and I'll tell you if you're right or not.

As far as the end statements of your posts, that's just a bunch of hot air that proves nothing.
 
Originally posted by veteran
As far as the end statements of your posts, that's just a bunch of hot air that proves nothing.

Erm.....I don't get it. I didn't post anything that would (or could) be construed as 'hot air'. Not sure where you're coming from there. Are you sure it is my post you are referring to? If so, can you be more precise? :gah
 
So you're now denying that you wrote the below post addressed to me? You don't have a split-personality, or something like that do you?

Osgiliath said:
So veteran, are you also (as whirlwind does) saying the Seals are 'out of order' as presented in Revelation? In other words; is the First Seal actually the Sixth; and vice-versa, etc? Where is your beginning and ending point regarding the Seals? If the Sixth is the First, when did they begin, and when do they end? What specific event corresponding to each Seal can be verified? How do the Trumpets relate to the Seals? Evidence? If we are presently experiencing the events of the Fifth Trumpet, explain how. Give explicit Scriptural details. The Olivet Discourse speaks of false religion in its introduction, not the false messiah. False teaching has been prevalent since the days of Acts, and throughout Church history. Where is the Biblical evidence for your assumptions? Like the full-preterists, you have nothing but presupposition, and a theory not backed by Scripture (in fact, is out of alignment). I'm open minded; but please; just give me some Biblical facts.
 
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