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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Ron 18 Feb 04
The apostle Paul, speaking of the whole armor of God, admonishes the
saints to "put on…the sword of the Spirit, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD"(
Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of
God’s word is "QUICK." Quick means living and active  LIFE-GIVING! "For
the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power  making it
active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any
two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).
Ah, yes, here is the sword that
conquers the death in us and GIVES LIFE! As it is written, "It is the
spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing…for the letter
killeth, but the spirit giveth life!" (Jn. 6:63; II Cor. 3:6). The sword
of the Spirit is the quickening, energizing, life-giving WORD OF GOD!
There are two aspects of the word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word  the Logos â€â€
THE LIVING, CREATIVE WORD! But there is also that word which Paul calls "the
letter." The letter is the outer hull, the record and history, the laws
and commandments, the rules and regulations, the types, shadows and
figures, the external ordinances, rituals, ceremonies, and feasts; the
visible form of the word which tells us, in terms understandable by the
natural mind, many things about the Living Word, Jesus Christ. As I
meditated upon the Cherubim and the flaming sword in Genesis, the Spirit
spoke within me, saying, "The flaming sword is a word!" Then in a sudden
burst of divine illumination the truth of it dawned powerfully upon me.
Christ is the Word, the Living Word, and IN HIM IS LIFE! But the flaming
sword at the portal of Eden is a word, not the Word, not the living Word,
but the form of the Word, that is, A WORD about THE WORD!
It should be clear to any thinking mind that the law given by Moses was a word from God. Many, many scriptures confirm that it was the very Lord Himself who spoke to Moses giving him the laws, commandments, judgments, and ordinances. Therefore it is called "the law of the Lord." Yet Paul, in speaking of this word from God, calls it "the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones." Then he further designates it "the ministration of condemnation." You, see, the law could only condemn! The only way the law could give life was if one perfectly kept it, but for every broken law there was a penalty. And no one was ever able to keep it! "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Therefore the law with all of its commandments, ceremonies, rituals, sacrifices, and observances is a dead word, it is form without essence, law without life, shadow without substance, chaff without kernel, it is the letter that killeth! It is "a word" about "The Word" and therefore shuts men up unto the dominion of death. It should not be difficult to understand that as Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God, the sword of the Spirit that quickens, so is the Letter of the Word a deadly sword, killing rather than quickening. Ah, two words and two swords! The flaming sword of the
Cherubim is the word of the law which is a ministration of condemnation and death. It keeps men out of Eden, away from the tree of life! But the sword out of the mouth of God’s Christ is a living sword that excelleth in glory as the ministration of Life! Under the anointing a brother said, "The creative power will be invested in the sons of God and we will step out of infinity with eternity to work with the creative word in our mouths."
The apostle Paul, speaking of the whole armor of God, admonishes the
saints to "put on…the sword of the Spirit, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD"(
Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of
God’s word is "QUICK." Quick means living and active  LIFE-GIVING! "For
the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power  making it
active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any
two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).
Ah, yes, here is the sword that
conquers the death in us and GIVES LIFE! As it is written, "It is the
spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing…for the letter
killeth, but the spirit giveth life!" (Jn. 6:63; II Cor. 3:6). The sword
of the Spirit is the quickening, energizing, life-giving WORD OF GOD!
There are two aspects of the word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word  the Logos â€â€
THE LIVING, CREATIVE WORD! But there is also that word which Paul calls "the
letter." The letter is the outer hull, the record and history, the laws
and commandments, the rules and regulations, the types, shadows and
figures, the external ordinances, rituals, ceremonies, and feasts; the
visible form of the word which tells us, in terms understandable by the
natural mind, many things about the Living Word, Jesus Christ. As I
meditated upon the Cherubim and the flaming sword in Genesis, the Spirit
spoke within me, saying, "The flaming sword is a word!" Then in a sudden
burst of divine illumination the truth of it dawned powerfully upon me.
Christ is the Word, the Living Word, and IN HIM IS LIFE! But the flaming
sword at the portal of Eden is a word, not the Word, not the living Word,
but the form of the Word, that is, A WORD about THE WORD!
It should be clear to any thinking mind that the law given by Moses was a word from God. Many, many scriptures confirm that it was the very Lord Himself who spoke to Moses giving him the laws, commandments, judgments, and ordinances. Therefore it is called "the law of the Lord." Yet Paul, in speaking of this word from God, calls it "the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones." Then he further designates it "the ministration of condemnation." You, see, the law could only condemn! The only way the law could give life was if one perfectly kept it, but for every broken law there was a penalty. And no one was ever able to keep it! "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Therefore the law with all of its commandments, ceremonies, rituals, sacrifices, and observances is a dead word, it is form without essence, law without life, shadow without substance, chaff without kernel, it is the letter that killeth! It is "a word" about "The Word" and therefore shuts men up unto the dominion of death. It should not be difficult to understand that as Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God, the sword of the Spirit that quickens, so is the Letter of the Word a deadly sword, killing rather than quickening. Ah, two words and two swords! The flaming sword of the
Cherubim is the word of the law which is a ministration of condemnation and death. It keeps men out of Eden, away from the tree of life! But the sword out of the mouth of God’s Christ is a living sword that excelleth in glory as the ministration of Life! Under the anointing a brother said, "The creative power will be invested in the sons of God and we will step out of infinity with eternity to work with the creative word in our mouths."
The Morning star is Jesus not Lucifer. Lucifer is not Satan.
Revelation 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star
Benoni said:
- * Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse, that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
There are two Benoni....God's Word, S-Word and Satan's s-word. Satan takes the Word of God and in the hands of the great deceiver...it becomes a weapon to slay souls. God allows this.
When used properly it does slay the carnal nature but used by Satan it misleads and slays souls.
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
Well I'm happy we have gotten back to the first seal, since we haven't worn that one out yet... :DBut...is it a "crown of victory" he wears? That isn't written. Nor is it written the rider on the white horse of [Rev. 6] arrives from heaven.But...the arrival of the True King tells us.....
You ask if it's a crown of victory the riders is wearing and suggest it isn't written. It is right in the verse and Osgiliath did an excellent job explaining this on the previous page. I've much the same here, in the past. There is a member here, Cooper, that can elaborate a bit more on the first seal. I will see if I can get him in here for a bit. I once believed as you did, but Coop was pretty good with his explanation and as I advanced in my studies, it began to make sense.
What isn't in the passage is anything that suggests this is a fake crown.
Also, it wasn't me that suggested an arrival from Heaven. That too isn't in the context, but from a spiritual perspective and considering this rider has something to do with the spreading of the Gospel, it is plausible.I am looking at this from the viewpoint that the first few seals are already history to us, but in the future from the writer's perspective. The idea of a bow adorning the ekklesia along with the "stephanos" as it goes into the world to proudly proclaim the the Kingdom of God is here and to win (conquer) over people for this Kingdom is evident from the historical perspective. Take for instance the conversion of Constantine and how it helped spread Christianity or how about the Crusades; did they not go forth with the goal of conquering?
My view is historic and having more to do with this being about Christiandom and not antichrist.
Yes, lets save that for another time. I will say that in the past, I took the same position as Benoni; if the KJ translators hadn't used the word Lucifer and with Latin being a dead and almost forgotten language, none of us would be tossing that word around.
It is also essential that the first seal would be of the "white horse" bringing light and divine illumination to us, showing us the purity of that to which we are called, before we face this "black horse" with all of its inworkings. The holy Spirit quickens various aspects to different individuals, we share the two points He impresses upon us-- black, and balances.
One of the reasons for His riding these black experiences into our life, is to bring us into BALANCE. Why does He "set men in depression ?" (Psalm 90:3, Ferrar Fenton). Why this BLACK MOOD that settles upon some? Why the dark night of the soul? Because in divine wisdom He incorporates the night with the light, and calls it "a day." "And the evening and the morning were the first day." (Genesis 1:5). And the sequence is most proper– for however dark the night might be, yet the process ends with the dawning light of that perfect day. "For His anger endureth but a moment; in His favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning." (Psalm 30:5). Through it all He brings a balance to the inner man.
HE RIDES WITH A BALANCE IN HIS HAND-- "Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; and all flesh shall see the salvation of the Lord." (Luke 3:5-6). Salvation! Redemption! The black horse rides for this! The ultimate goal is total restoration for every creature!
What a shout of victory shall be heard, when the overcomers are manifested in the glory of HIS BALANCE. The song of the ages which has long been buried deep within shall be heard again-- as "When the morning stars sang together; and all the sons of God shouted for joy." (Job 38:7). What praise, what worship shall arise as sweet incense unto Him who has wrought such a glorious redemption under the cover of the dark night of the soul. Truly, "The darkness hideth not from Thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to Thee." (Psalm 139:12).
Jesus said to Peter, "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith shall not." (Luke 22:31-32). Why the sifting? To sift out all the uneven particles-- the doubt, the unbelief, the self-will, etc. until only "fine flour" remains. We get so tossed and shaken we think all balance is gone-- but all of this is working that He might bring us into HIS balance. And don't forget, He says, "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not." Fail not-- literally, the Greek text reads, "will not go into an eclipse. " HIS PRAYER SHALL BE ANSWERED! His faith in us shall rise up and overcome. "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20).
The message came to Belshazzar, "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting " (Daniel 5:27). Likewise we look at ourselves and we see such lack, such need. But He rides within to balance out our need with His sufficiency, our lack with His fullness. "He maketh peace thy borders, and filleth thee with the finest of wheat." (Psalm 147:14). He is the one that "bindeth up our wounds, pouring in oil and wine." (Luke 10:34). He is that Great Physician, He is our Healing Redeemer!
Far too long we have fastened our attention upon the blackness of the night, but now it is time to look only on the Rider-- "the Author and the Finisher of our faith." He will ride prosperously through the night, and joy will come in the morning.
One of the reasons for His riding these black experiences into our life, is to bring us into BALANCE. Why does He "set men in depression ?" (Psalm 90:3, Ferrar Fenton). Why this BLACK MOOD that settles upon some? Why the dark night of the soul? Because in divine wisdom He incorporates the night with the light, and calls it "a day." "And the evening and the morning were the first day." (Genesis 1:5). And the sequence is most proper– for however dark the night might be, yet the process ends with the dawning light of that perfect day. "For His anger endureth but a moment; in His favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning." (Psalm 30:5). Through it all He brings a balance to the inner man.
HE RIDES WITH A BALANCE IN HIS HAND-- "Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; and all flesh shall see the salvation of the Lord." (Luke 3:5-6). Salvation! Redemption! The black horse rides for this! The ultimate goal is total restoration for every creature!
What a shout of victory shall be heard, when the overcomers are manifested in the glory of HIS BALANCE. The song of the ages which has long been buried deep within shall be heard again-- as "When the morning stars sang together; and all the sons of God shouted for joy." (Job 38:7). What praise, what worship shall arise as sweet incense unto Him who has wrought such a glorious redemption under the cover of the dark night of the soul. Truly, "The darkness hideth not from Thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to Thee." (Psalm 139:12).
Jesus said to Peter, "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith shall not." (Luke 22:31-32). Why the sifting? To sift out all the uneven particles-- the doubt, the unbelief, the self-will, etc. until only "fine flour" remains. We get so tossed and shaken we think all balance is gone-- but all of this is working that He might bring us into HIS balance. And don't forget, He says, "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not." Fail not-- literally, the Greek text reads, "will not go into an eclipse. " HIS PRAYER SHALL BE ANSWERED! His faith in us shall rise up and overcome. "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20).
The message came to Belshazzar, "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting " (Daniel 5:27). Likewise we look at ourselves and we see such lack, such need. But He rides within to balance out our need with His sufficiency, our lack with His fullness. "He maketh peace thy borders, and filleth thee with the finest of wheat." (Psalm 147:14). He is the one that "bindeth up our wounds, pouring in oil and wine." (Luke 10:34). He is that Great Physician, He is our Healing Redeemer!
Far too long we have fastened our attention upon the blackness of the night, but now it is time to look only on the Rider-- "the Author and the Finisher of our faith." He will ride prosperously through the night, and joy will come in the morning.
Again?
Two what?
Two Jesus'
Are you saying the Morning Star is Satan when Revelation 22:16 declares that the angel/messengers declared that Jesus is "the bright and morning star". You say this is silly to and pointless arguement; someone is twisted here and it sure is not God's Word. This is exsackly the kinds of issues that should be address and not ignored or brushed off as silly.
Two what?
Two Jesus'
Are you saying the Morning Star is Satan when Revelation 22:16 declares that the angel/messengers declared that Jesus is "the bright and morning star". You say this is silly to and pointless arguement; someone is twisted here and it sure is not God's Word. This is exsackly the kinds of issues that should be address and not ignored or brushed off as silly.
whirlwind said:
Vic C. said:But...is it a "crown of victory" he wears? That isn't written. Nor is it written the rider on the white horse of [Rev. 6] arrives from heaven.
Well I'm happy we have gotten back to the first seal, since we haven't worn that one out yet... :D
You ask if it's a crown of victory the riders is wearing and suggest it isn't written. It is right in the verse and Osgiliath did an excellent job explaining this on the previous page. I've much the same here, in the past. There is a member here, Cooper, that can elaborate a bit more on the first seal. I will see if I can get him in here for a bit. I once believed as you did, but Coop was pretty good with his explanation and as I advanced in my studies, it began to make sense.
What isn't in the passage is anything that suggests this is a fake crown.
It is a crown but where is it written that it was a "crown of victory" or that he is "spreading the gospel?"
He is given a crown, a bow, a white horse, and a great sword with which to deceive. - * 11 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
The delusion is that he will be pretending to be Jesus..."shewing himself that he is God," with a crown, bow, white horse and great sword. In the teaching of the seals, where we are told what will happen....where is the arrival of Satan mentioned? Where are we told how he will appear? He is the first rider and his appearance is described in [6:2]. But in 6:12 (6-6-6) the sixth seal tells us what happens at his arrival.
It is written that "one of the seals" was opened "as it were the noise of thunder." [6:1] Then the rider on a white horse is described. The other seals aren't accompanied by "the noise of thunder," which I believe is a trumpet. That event is when the sixth trumpet sounds. The first rider is announced by the sixth trumpet and the events are very similar to the events of the arrival of Jesus. It is all deception.
I believe the first seals have already happened too. I believe we are now in the time of the fifth seal but....the one given to us first, the "one of the seals," hasn't yet happened...it is next.
And that's my
O
Osgiliath
Guest
- Thread starter
- #34
Whirlwind, you are not analyzing the context of the Seals properly. The Seals are in the precise and proper order in which God presented them to us, not to be changed by man. I agree with Vic, the opening of the first Seals (the first three in my opinion) happened in the past. As far as the Tribulation (along with the appearance of the false messiah), look at this:
"When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the Earth." (Revelation 6:7,8)
The Great Tribulation begins in the FOURTH SEAL. Throughout God's Word, God's deadly judgments are defined as sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 32 and Ezekiel 14 explain the precise meaning of "sword, famine, plague and wild beasts." God's wrath is executed on mankind through these four devices (See also Leviticus 26; Jeremiah 21:7, 42:17; Ezekiel 7:15.)
"For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments – sword and famine and wild beasts and plague – to kill its men and their animals!" (Ezekiel 14:21)
And in the Song of Moses (the firstfruits will also sing this in Heaven):
“I will heap calamities upon them and spend my arrows against them. I will send wasting famine against them, consuming pestilence and deadly plague; I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts, the venom of vipers that glide in the dust. In the street the sword will make them childless; in their homes terror will reign.†(Deuteronomy 32:15-25).
And the destruction of Jerusalem (586 BC)
"The word of the Lord came to me: Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals, even if these three men Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness,' declares the Sovereign Lord. Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, as surely as I live,' declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.' Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals, as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.' Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, as surely as I live,' declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter.†(Ezekiel 14:12-21)
When God's cup is full, God will use His four deadly judgments; sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. This is precisely why this four judgments are mentioned in the Fourth Seal. This is when the Tribulation begins. Considering the Tribulation is outlined line by line in the Seven Trumpets (i.e. the Seven Trumpets commence when the Fourth Seal is opened), and the false Christ does not appear until the Fifth Trumpet, and he reigns for FIVE MONTHS out of a 1,260 day Tribulation; he cannot possibly appear during the First Seal.
The White Rider carries a stephanos - an "incorruptible" crown of victory (see 1 Corinthians 9:25). When one surveys the history of the Christian Church, the doctrine of Salvation through faith in Christ was missing for more than a thousand years, and the truth about Salvation was lost in the traditions of the Church (Dark Ages - contrasted with a WHITE horse). It wasn't until the authority of the Church was broken that the truth about Salvation through faith in Christ could be widely proclaimed to the world.
The WHITE RIDER was VICTORIOUS, and those who believed in Jesus received their stephanos! The SWORD OF TRUTH (God's Word) - SECOND SEAL - was then printed and distributed throughout the earth on a mass scale never before seen in the history of the world. People everywhere could now freely read God's Sword of Truth without being persecuted, tortured, or killed.
"When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the Earth." (Revelation 6:7,8)
The Great Tribulation begins in the FOURTH SEAL. Throughout God's Word, God's deadly judgments are defined as sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 32 and Ezekiel 14 explain the precise meaning of "sword, famine, plague and wild beasts." God's wrath is executed on mankind through these four devices (See also Leviticus 26; Jeremiah 21:7, 42:17; Ezekiel 7:15.)
"For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments – sword and famine and wild beasts and plague – to kill its men and their animals!" (Ezekiel 14:21)
And in the Song of Moses (the firstfruits will also sing this in Heaven):
“I will heap calamities upon them and spend my arrows against them. I will send wasting famine against them, consuming pestilence and deadly plague; I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts, the venom of vipers that glide in the dust. In the street the sword will make them childless; in their homes terror will reign.†(Deuteronomy 32:15-25).
And the destruction of Jerusalem (586 BC)
"The word of the Lord came to me: Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals, even if these three men Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness,' declares the Sovereign Lord. Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, as surely as I live,' declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.' Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals, as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.' Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals, as surely as I live,' declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter.†(Ezekiel 14:12-21)
When God's cup is full, God will use His four deadly judgments; sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. This is precisely why this four judgments are mentioned in the Fourth Seal. This is when the Tribulation begins. Considering the Tribulation is outlined line by line in the Seven Trumpets (i.e. the Seven Trumpets commence when the Fourth Seal is opened), and the false Christ does not appear until the Fifth Trumpet, and he reigns for FIVE MONTHS out of a 1,260 day Tribulation; he cannot possibly appear during the First Seal.
The White Rider carries a stephanos - an "incorruptible" crown of victory (see 1 Corinthians 9:25). When one surveys the history of the Christian Church, the doctrine of Salvation through faith in Christ was missing for more than a thousand years, and the truth about Salvation was lost in the traditions of the Church (Dark Ages - contrasted with a WHITE horse). It wasn't until the authority of the Church was broken that the truth about Salvation through faith in Christ could be widely proclaimed to the world.
The WHITE RIDER was VICTORIOUS, and those who believed in Jesus received their stephanos! The SWORD OF TRUTH (God's Word) - SECOND SEAL - was then printed and distributed throughout the earth on a mass scale never before seen in the history of the world. People everywhere could now freely read God's Sword of Truth without being persecuted, tortured, or killed.
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
Stephanos, the verse, in Greek, uses the word stephanos and that is what was explained on the previous page. I would ask you to go back and read the first few verses of ch. 6. The rider of the first horse was not given a sword. Keep in mind the standard pre-millennial futurist position teaches that a good portion of the first half of the 70th. week is a period of "peace and safety." (albeit a false sense of peace and safely) 1 Th 5:3It is a crown but where is it written that it was a "crown of victory" or that he is "spreading the gospel?"
As for the part about spreading the Gospel, that was the interpretation prior to the standard futurist belief. Please read Adam Clarke's commentary which was written some 200 years ago.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view. ... hapter=006
Sorry, I'm not tying this into verse 6:2. According to the standard pre-millennial futurist position, he isn't revealed until midpoint of the 70th. week. I don't believe in a future seven year tribulation period But... keep in mind though, if I had to choose a futurist position to hang my hat on, it would be the Pre Wrath position.
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
There is something I should state; my extended study of the Pre Wrath position taught me this:
Tribulation and wrath are two separate events. Yes, I said it. LOL Pre wrath teaches that the Great Tribulation is Satan's (antichrist's) persecution against God's people and not to be confused with God's wrath, which begins at 6:17;
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Therefore the 2nd., 3rd., 4th., and 5th., seals are not from God, though HE does permit the events within them to occur. If I followed Pre Wrath to the tee, the 4th./5th. seal is where the GT begins. Right after that we are shown the souls of those slain for their belief. That is also their midpoint.
Then again, Pre Wrath also believes the white horse is antichrist.
Tribulation and wrath are two separate events. Yes, I said it. LOL Pre wrath teaches that the Great Tribulation is Satan's (antichrist's) persecution against God's people and not to be confused with God's wrath, which begins at 6:17;
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Therefore the 2nd., 3rd., 4th., and 5th., seals are not from God, though HE does permit the events within them to occur. If I followed Pre Wrath to the tee, the 4th./5th. seal is where the GT begins. Right after that we are shown the souls of those slain for their belief. That is also their midpoint.
Then again, Pre Wrath also believes the white horse is antichrist.
Vic C. said:It is a crown but where is it written that it was a "crown of victory" or that he is "spreading the gospel?"
Stephanos, the verse, in Greek, uses the word stephanos and that is what was explained on the previous page. I would ask you to go back and read the first few verses of ch. 6. The rider of the first horse was not given a sword. Keep in mind the standard pre-millennial futurist position teaches that a good portion of the first half of the 70th. week is a period of "peace and safety." (albeit a false sense of peace and safely) 1 Th 5:3
As for the part about spreading the Gospel, that was the interpretation prior to the standard futurist belief. Please read Adam Clarke's commentary which was written some 200 years ago.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view. ... hapter=006
Gosh Vic....I've been reading chapter 6 over and over and over looking for anything to either make me see what you are saying or for anything more to give to you to make you see what I see. :silly The four riders are imbedded on my brain. :crazy Actually...they are sealed therein. :rolling
Two things about your above paragraph. First, the rider on the white horse WAS given a sword, a great sword, "and there was given unto him a great sword." [Rev.6:4] The sword used by both sides in this battle is God's Holy Word. He is given the sword of the Lord but he uses it to deceive.
I agree there will be "false peace and safety," so the sword given him won't cause a literal war but it is rather a spiritual war. As we know that he will deceive the world [Rev. 12:9], the great sword is part of the deception. The world will believe it is our Savior but....it is instead...the dragon using the Word of the Lamb, the great sword.
- * Revelation 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails; for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads; and with them they do hurt.
As "C" taught...the tail of the dragon are false prophets. Those false teachers use the great sword to deceive or..."the power is in their mouth."
Sorry, I'm not tying this into verse 6:2. According to the standard pre-millennial futurist position, he isn't revealed until midpoint of the 70th. week. I don't believe in a future seven year tribulation period But... keep in mind though, if I had to choose a futurist position to hang my hat on, it would be the Pre Wrath position.[/quote:3my18vvn]
I don't know about pre-millennial futurist pre-wrath, etc. stuff. His Word, not man, tells us what will be. We know God will send strong delusion...it is written. We know the seals of Revelation 6 tell us about when events happen...it is written. As we know Satan is going to arrive to tempt the world, and will succeed, where is he written of in Revelation 6?
Vic...he is the strong delusion God sends. Satan arrives with two horns "like a lamb." [Rev.13:11] Horns represent power so this is saying he will be given two powers like the Lamb of God. What are they? I think the first is power to appear as Jesus in order to deceive and the second is the power to use the great sword (the Holy word) to deceive. For this reason we are instructed to...
- * Ephesians 6:11-13 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Vic C. said:
:yes Yes, they are two separate events.
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Therefore the 2nd., 3rd., 4th., and 5th., seals are not from God, though HE does permit the events within them to occur. If I followed Pre Wrath to the tee, the 4th./5th. seal is where the GT begins. Right after that we are shown the souls of those slain for their belief. That is also their midpoint.
Then again, Pre Wrath also believes the white horse is antichrist.
Again, I agree. The seals are "not from God," (or rather not about God) but are about Satan. But the great tribulation isn't taught in the fifth seal. It is in the sixth and we learn from "one of the seals" that was first opened by the Lamb, [6:2] how Satan will appear when the sixth seal happens.
The fifth seal [Revelation 6:9] shows us in a time where "that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." I think this is where we are right now.
Vic C.
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- Mar 16, 2003
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Ok, I see a problem. Lets go through this passage.
Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
What isn't clear about this? (below)
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
No sword for him. He had a bow and it was a(stephanos) crown, not a sword, which was given to this rider. But wait...
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
The rider on the Red horse, not the White horse, gets a sword.
How can that not be any clearer? You need to read the whole verse and not pluck out the last portion of it and attribute it to the rider on the White horse.
Yes, HIS word, not man's and I agree. But that shouldn't be used as an escape hatch to ignore those who know more that we. Teaching and prophecy are gifts, not everyone is given those gifts. I cannot sit here and say I know God's Word better than others. I will speak up when I seriously disagree with something, no matter who it is. No offense, but I am sure you did not come up with all of this on your own either.
You are looking for Satan to arrive to deceive; you missed it by some 2,000 years. Longer actually. John, Peter and the others knew this. Paul knew this. Tribulation of the believers started way back when also. So did apostasy and one look around shows us apostasy is so rampant among many people who claim to be believers that they have become addicted to the tickle in their ear.
There is your deception and delusion. It's been happening over a long period of time and not something that will happen in a short, seven year span. That, would be way too obvious. Doing it over the course of history... now that is a plan an adversary would wrap it's heard around.
The mafia had a saying, an old proverb of theirs:
La vendetta es una minestra che se mangia fredda
We know it as:
Revenge is a dish best served cold. ;)