The "Signless" Return: Dogma

[Revel]

The “Signless†Return: Dogma


AUTHOR'S NOTE

Most of us in the church have been taught that the return of Christ to gather the church is a “signless†event. Invariably, one verse is used to substantiate this position: “the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night†(1 Thess. 5:2).

Is it true that God is relying on one apostle and one figure of speech to communicate that Christ’s return for the church is a “signless†event?

Or is it Satan who wants us to isolate one apostle and isolate one verse and then misunderstand one figure of speech, leading to the wrong conclusion?

How would Christ respond to these questions?
How would the apostles Peter, Paul, and John respond to these questions?
How would the Old Testament respond to these questions? . . .


INTRODUCTION

When the apostle Paul prophesied, “the day of the Lord†will come “like a thief in the night,†what did he communicate to the church?

Is Paul introducing brand-new concepts, or is he referring to concepts already established by biblical prophets that precede him?

How can we as the church understand Paul’s reference to a “thief†unless we look to where “thief†is used relative to end times?

In the Book of Revelation, Christ prophesied about his return for Israel: “Behold, I come like a thief!†(Rev. 16:15). Christ spoke this prophecy in the context of Armageddon, which is “the battle on the great day of God Almighty†(Rev. 16:14).

If Christ’s return for Israel is like a “thief,†is Christ’s return for Israel a “signless†event? No. The Apocalypse is not a “signless†event.

If Christ did not use the word “thief†to mean a “signless†event, then how can we as his church justify using “thief†to mean a “signless†event?

What did Christ communicate when he said that he would return for Israel like a “thief�

The prophecy spoken by Christ has a precedent. Isaiah prophesied of Israel’s salvation and how that salvation would be instantaneous.

Moreover the multitude of thy strangers [enemies] shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly. Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire. (Isa. 29:5, 6 kjv)

Isaiah spoke of time and marked dramatic signs that shall accompany the second coming of Christâ€â€when he returns “like a thief.†Herein, Christ’s reference to a thief speaks not of a “signless†return, but of the sudden surprise of his return, and how those who are in spiritual darkness will be overtaken, and how those who embrace spiritual light are commanded to “watch†(Rev. 16:15 kjv).

Like Christ, Paul’s reference to a “thief†speaks of time, not signs, and addresses those who will be overtaken (1 Thess. 5:3), and those who are commanded to “watch†(1 Thess. 5:6 kjv):

Now, brothers, about times and dates [not signs] we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. (1 Thess. 5:1, 2)

Christ’s sudden return will not overtake those who have embraced spiritual light. A thief arrives as a sudden surprise and overtakes those who are in spiritual darkness. These prophetic truths apply to Christ’s return for the church and for Israel.

Like Christ and Paul, Peter’s reference to a “thief†speaks of the sudden nature of Heaven’s intervention and the drama that will follow:

[T]he day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10 kjv)

In their prophecies, Christ, Paul, and Peter did not equate “thief†with a “signless†event. In essence, there is no scriptural justification to use the symbol of a “thief†to claim that an event is “signless.â€Â

The religious tradition of the “signless†return has served only to cast a shadow upon the Scriptures; there is no need to be in subjection to this tradition. Now, prophecies that speak to the church about Christ’s return can open up to us.

That said, this text explores both the Old and New Testaments and ends up with one inescapable conclusion: just as dramatic signs shall mark the instantaneous arrival of Christ for Israel, so shall dramatic signs mark the instantaneous arrival of Christ for the church.

In the light of Scripture, the true nature the “signless†return is understood for what it is: this dogma is nothing more than a religious traditionasquerading as the truth, causing us to neglect prophecies that directly apply to us.

Why would Satan want Christ’s church to believe the lie of the “signless†return?

The answer concerns Heaven’s commands. Paul issued the command to “watch.†Without knowledge of Heaven’s signs, the church cannot watch for Heaven’s signs.

This text presents prophecies given by Christ, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, Luke, Peter, John, and Paul.

To be continued...

revel

 

[Vic C.]

Nice piece revel... who wrote it?

Also, when one reads 1 Thess 5, keep in mind verses 3, 4 and 5 explain who is being spoken about in this passage... and it's not believers.

1 Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

We are not "they", nor are we "of the night, nor the darkness".

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

It's good to be back.

I just finished this text...

Thanks for elaborating on Paul's prophecy. I will do likewise in a later post.

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

THE APOSTLE PETER AND THE PROPHET JOEL

When Paul stated “the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night,†he was not the only apostle who spoke of the “day of the Lord.†There were two apostles (witnesses), not one, who specifically prophesied of the “day of the Lordâ€Â: Paul and Peter.

On the first day of the churchâ€â€Pentecostâ€â€Peter stood up and addressed the crowd.

[T]his is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 2:16–21)

Who are those who call on the “name of the Lord�
Who are those who “will be saved�
When will “the sun be turned to darkness and the moon to bloodâ€Â? “Before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lordâ€Ââ€â€the same “day of the Lord†spoken by Paul.

Are we in Christ’s church supposed to believe that two apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, who specifically spoke of the “day of the Lord,†are referring to two entirely different concepts?

Why couldn’t Peter and Paul be two witnesses given to us by God who are referring to the same concept, only providing different pieces of the same puzzle to help us understand more of the same picture?

On the first day of the church, Peter spoke to the crowd and referenced Joel. Why?

Why did Peter quote Joel?

Why did Christ quote Isaiah in the synagogue of Nazareth? Because it was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy.

Why did Paul quote Isaiah in the context of speaking in tongues? Because it was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy.

Why did Christ quote Daniel in the context of the Antichrist? Because it would be the ultimate fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy.

Who established the precedent to help the church understand why a New Testament apostle would quote an Old Testament prophet? Christ.

Peter quoted Joel on Pentecost because it was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy (and it would be the ultimate fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy).

To witness the magnitude of what Peter accomplished on the day of Pentecost, the prophecy first given by Joel is now presented. What Peter quoted from Joel’s prophecy is in bold.

The following is taken from the second chapter of Joel:

And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:28–32)

When Peter quoted Joel, he stopped before he quoted “for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.â€Â

Why did Peter stop at the semicolon?
Why didn’t he read the whole prophecy given by Joel?
What is Peter telling the church on the first day of the church?
When these questions are answered, the harmony between the Old and New Testaments is revealed.

Why did Peter stop where he did?

Truly, on the first day of the church, Peter carved out that section of Joel’s prophecy that directly applied to the time of the church. Peter marked the signs that initiated the church (“I will pour out my Spirit on all peopleâ€Â); he marked the signs that mark the presence of the church on Earth (“prophesy,†“visions,†etc.); finally, Peter marked the signs that mark the gathering of the church into Heaven (when “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lordâ€Â).

Hundreds of years prior to Peter’s declaration on Pentecost, God had already established the irrefutable signs that would mark the church. Not one Old Testament prophet understood it. It was Peter who made it known to the “world†on the holy day of Pentecost.

On the first day of the church, Peter did not speak about “Mount Zion†and “Jerusalem†because that part of Joel’s prophecy is about the future of the twelve tribes: “Israel.†This is the time of great distress foretold by Jeremiah; it is “the time of Jacob’s [Israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it†(Jer. 30:7 kjv). Jeremiah foretold precisely what Joel foretold: there will be “deliverance†for Israelâ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“among the survivors whom the Lord calls.†This is what Peter didn’t quote because it applied not to the church but to Israel.

What is the significance of Peter’s reference to Joel?

Regarding ChristÀ™s return for the church, God has given the church two witnesses: the Old Testament and the New Testament. Therefore, it is impossible that God is relying upon one New Testament apostle (Paul) to be the single witness to communicate the “picture†of Christ’s return for the church.

This text now turns to another apostle: John. What divine light did John give us regarding the signs that mark Christ’s return for the church?

To be continued…

revel

 

[Revel]

THE APOSTLE JOHN AND THE PROPHET DANIEL

When Peter prophesied, “the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood,†he wasn’t the only apostle who spoke of these signs. There were two apostles (witnesses), not one, who spoke of the sun turning dark and the moon turning blood red: Peter and John. John’s prophecy marked the same signs as Peterâ€â€as well as other celestial and earthly signs.

I [John] watched as he [Christ] opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red. (Rev. 6:12)

Are we in Christ’s church supposed to believe that two apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, who prophesied of the sun turning dark (black) and the moon turning blood red, are referring to two entirely different events?

Why couldn’t John and Peter be two witnesses given to us by God who are referring to the same event, only providing different pieces of the same puzzle to help us understand more of the same picture?

What will happen to the church after the sun turns dark and the moon turns blood red?

Peter said, “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.†How is the church saved? Paul said it will be gathered off the Earth into the clouds with Christ. What is the ultimate destination?

Look at the vision Heaven gave to John:

After this I [John] looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.†All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!â€Â
Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robesâ€â€who are they, and where did they come from?†I answered, “Sir, you know.†And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation [not wrath]; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.†(Rev. 7:9–17)

Who is the “great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb�

Who are they who “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb�

The Gentiles? The Jews? Or are they the saved in Christ?

John and Peter both spoke of the signs that would mark the time of salvation (deliverance) for the saved in Christ. The multitude described by John is the same multitude described by Peter: “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.†John’s revelation added a piece to the divine puzzle by expounding upon the revelation first spoken by Peter: “The sky [filled with those who call on the name of the Lord] receded like a scroll, rolling up [to Heaven]†(Rev. 6:14).

John is in agreement with Peter, and both are in agreement with Joel: the sun will turn dark (black) and the moon will turn blood red when Christ arrives to save those who call on the name of the Lord. This is the divine harmony of divine revelation, which contradicts the religious tradition of the “signless†rapture.

In the Book of Revelation, John identified the chronology of end-time events.

1. The church shall be “savedâ€Â… gathered into Heaven (Rev. 6:12–14; 7:9–17).

2. The time of “wrath†shall follow. The world shall witness three and a half years of God’s prophets and then three and a half years of Satan’s prophets.

God's prophets:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev. 11:3)

Satan's prophets:
The beast [the Antichrist] was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. . . . Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:5, 11)

This seven-year prophecy of John was first given by the prophet Daniel. Known as the seventieth “seven,†this is the final seven years of prophecy decreed for Daniel’s people, which is Israel (Dan. 9:24).

He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven [seven years].†In the middle of the “seven†[after three and a half years] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [at the time of the Apocalypse] (Dan. 9:27).

3. Finally, like Daniel, John marked the culmination of this time: the Apocalypse. Christ shall descend from Heaven with the church to destroy the armies of Satan and rescue the remnant of Israel.

They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kingsâ€â€and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers. (Rev. 17:14)

I [John] saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. [Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints (Rev. 19:8).] Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.†He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, “so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.â€Â
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Rev. 19:11–21)

John’s prophecy expounded upon prophecies first given by the Old Testament prophetsâ€â€which include Zechariah and Joel.

Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech. 14:3–5 KJV)

The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. . . . [F]or on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will bedeliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 3:16 KJV; 2:32)

According to the prophets and apostles, the coming of Christ has very distinct characteristics, for there are two stages that are separated by time.

This text now turns back to the apostle Paul. What piece of the prophetic puzzle did Paul provide when he referred to “the day of the Lord�

To be continued…

revel

 

[Revel]

THE APOSTLES PAUL AND JOHN, AND THE PROPHET ISAIAH

What did Paul communicate when he said “the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night�

Firstly, Paul did not say Christ will return like a thief in the night, but that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Why did Paul refer to “the day of the Lord�
What is “the day of the Lord�
Is it the single day of Christ’s return?
Or does it refer to a span of time that applies to Heaven’s intervention upon Earth?

The Old Testament prophets give God’s precedentâ€â€God’s answer. Isaiah (among other prophets) testified that “the day of the Lord†is not one day but a span of time that speaks of God’s intervention into earthly affairs.

Why would Paul refer to “the day of the Lord� Because God’s intervention into earthly affairs shall begin with Christ’s descent from Heaven to gather the church into Heaven to save it from the wrath to come.

To set the stage to understand Paul’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord,†this text moves back in time to the precedent established by God. What follows are prophecies given by Isaiah:

Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp, every man’s heart will melt. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. See, the day of the Lord is comingâ€â€a cruel day, with wrath and fierce angerâ€â€to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. (Isa. 13:6–9)

Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: . . . And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. (Isa. 2:10–12, 19–21 KJV)

The “day of the Lord†described by Isaiah is the same “day of the Lord†described by the New Testament apostles: it is the prophecy of Heaven’s intervention.

The prophecies given by Isaiah bare a striking resemblance to John’s prophecy in the Book of Revelation because John marked the onset of the day of the Lord:

I [John] watched as he [Christ] opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?†(Rev. 6:12–17)

This wrath described by John is the same wrath described by Isaiah.

Without question, the day of the Lord is the span of time marking Heaven’s intervention. The Old Testament prophets clearly spoke of this, but it wasn’t until Heaven gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the church that the fullness of this intervention was made known.

When the sixth seal opens, the Lord Jesus Christ will gather God’s possessions, and the sky will be filled with souls marked by Heaven. Then the sky will recede upward like a scroll, and the church shall ascend to Heaven. The remaining population will erupt into chaos, seeking to be hidden from the God whom they rejected. (Whereas the sixth seal announces the coming wrath, the seventh seal initiates its actual commencement.)

This wrath spoken by John in the Book of Revelation is the same wrath spoken by Paul; it is the wrath the sons of God are saved from: “and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the deadâ€â€Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath†(1 Thess. 1:10).

Jesus Christ shall rescue the church “from†the coming wrath. “From†in the Greek language is apo and means “away from,†denoting “motion from the exterior.†In other words, the church is not just protected from the wrath while “sitting†on the Earth, but is saved “away from†the wrath by literally being drawn up away from the Earth’s surface: “motion from the exterior†of the Earth to Heaven, which is the gathering.

In contrast to the church gathered into Heaven, those who remain on the planet will understand the impending wrath. How do we know this?

John’s prophecy reveals the collective voice of those left behind: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?â€Â

If the religious tradition of the “signless†return is true, and no one on Earth can see Christ descend from Heaven, and the church simply disappears, then how could those left on Earth know “the great day of their wrath has come?â€Â

Why would those who reject Christ say, “hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb�

Those who are left on Earth must awake to Heaven’s judgment and Christ’s presence. How? God shall mark the onset of the day of the Lord with divine signs:

There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth. (Rev. 6:12, 13)

[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him (Rev. 1:7).

This is the testimony of God: Those who are on the Earth will see and understand Heaven’s divine power and the presence of Christ and then will recognize their own reality and fate.

Without question, before Heaven’s judgment strikes the Earth, divine signs will mark the divine threshold: “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.â€Â

The belief that Christ’s arrival to save the church is a “signless†event is rooted in religious historyâ€â€not in the Scriptures. Our religious ancestors neglected the harmony between the Old and New Testaments, misunderstood one figure of speech, and consequently were deceivedâ€â€and the deception continues to this day.

For those of us in the body of Christ who hold to the supreme authority of Scripture, there is no intent to create traditions or stories, but to be worthy of the divinely inspired story already written. Let us not silence the witnesses God gave us who prophesied about “the day of the Lord.†The testimony of God stands: signsâ€â€not the absence of themâ€â€shall mark Heaven’s timetable.

Heaven gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the day of the Lord to inform the church about this future time.

Here is Paul’s prophecy:

Now, brothers, about times and dates [not signs] we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people [who are not in the body of Christ] are saying, “Peace and safety,†destruction will come on them suddenly [from wrath], as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day [the day of the Lord] should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert [watch] and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath [during Heaven’s intervention on Earth] but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. (1 Thess. 5:1–10)

This prophecy is not speaking about signs, nor is it speaking exclusively about Christ’s return for the church. Rather, it speaks of the sudden nature of Heaven’s intervention and the destiny of those within the body of Christ and the destiny of those not within the body of Christ. When Christ descends from Heaven to gather the church, the opposing fates shall be delivered concurrently.

With regard to the church, Paul said: “But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise [overtake] you like a thief.†The word “surprise†means “to lay hold of, [to] seize suddenly, [and to] come suddenly upon.â€Â

The day of the Lord will not overtake the church like a thief. Why? “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Chr.†Wrath will not lay hold upon the church because of the salvation of the church.

What salvation? The same salvation Paul described just a few sentences earlier in his letter to the Thessalonians: the gathering in the clouds when we “meet the Lord in the air†(1 Thess. 4:17). Salvation means deliverance.

Next: When in our religious history did unsound doctrine regarding Christ’s return for the church first emerge?

To be continued…

Note: Heaven’s revelation about “the day of the Lord†is found throughout the Old Testament: Isaiah (2:12; 13:6, 9), Ezekiel (13:5; 30:3), Joel (1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14), Amos (5:18, 20), Obadiah (15), Zephaniah (1:7, 14), Zechariah (14:1), and Malachi (4:5).

revel

 

[Vic C.]

Firstly, Paul did not say Christ will return like a thief in the night, but that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

An important but overlooked bit of information, heh? 8-)

Thanks Revel. Keep it coming.

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

Thank you for your thoughts...

God bless your heart.

Be back soon.

revel

 

[Revel]

THE APOSTLES PAUL AND JOHN: DISMISSED

When in our religious history did unsound doctrine regarding Christ’s return for the church first emerge? The first century.

Church leadership dismissed both Paul and Johnâ€â€and Paul and John documented this deplorable state of affairs.

The apostle John revealed the mind-set of a church leader so twisted that he rejected not only an apostle of Christ but also cast Christ’s followers out of the church.

“I [John] wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church†(3 John 9, 10).

How did Diotrephes handle John (someone who spoke out about the truth)? Vicious personal attacks and dismissal…

If that wasn’t bad enough, church leadership in Asia Minor saw fit to pull the entire flock of Christ away from the apostle Paul.

“You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me [Paul]â€Â
(2 Tim. 1:15).

Church “leaders†actually trashed the apostles. How pathetic is that… Our religious ancestors saw fit to keep “their†flock away from John and Paul.

How many doctrinal mutations could have come out of this corrupt environment?

Paul, in his second letter to Timothy, wrote the following:

Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:16–18)

Hymenaeus and Philetus “wandered away from the truth†and taught “godless chatter†about the resurrection of those who died in Christ.

Why would God document this revolting picture from our spiritual past?

What is to be learned from this historical record?

We within the church must be honest with ourselves and examine what we have assumed to be true. This must include the doctrine of the “signless†rapture.

Just what exactly did we inherit from our religious ancestors?

Compare the “signless†rapture to what Paul said to the Thessalonians.

“Now, brothers, about times and dates.â€Â

So what is Paul going to talk about? Signs? Or time?

“While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly.â€Â

Is it “signless†destruction?

Or is it sudden destruction?

Paul is not speaking of the “signless†nature of Heaven’s intervention, but of the sudden nature of Heaven’s intervention.

It is not a “signless†rapture; it is a sudden rapture: "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedâ€â€in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51, 52).

How could it have happened that we ended up believing and teaching the “signless†arrival of Christ?

Why should we just accept the corruption of Scripture handed to us by our religious ancestors?

The dogma of the “signless†rapture is nothing more than godless chatter and this teaching has spread like gangrene.

Enough of this “signless†dogma…

This is what I believe: There is one author, God, who gave us the "books" in the Bible. The Creator speaks with one voice, but with different perspectives on identical subjects. Consider Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Why four Gospels? They speak to the same subject, only with different perspectives so as to paint the fullness of the whole picture. God designed the whole Bible this way: different writers speaking to identical subjects providing unique pieces of the divine puzzle.

The divine harmony between the Old and New Testaments cannot be broken. It is by the multitude of writers (witnesses) that our God has given us in the Bibleâ€â€who testify to the truthâ€â€and reveal the harmony within and between the Old and New Testaments, that we as Christ’s church can take God’s Word for “it,†and know what is truly sound doctrine. It is our enemy, Satan, who wants us to isolate verses, divide apostles one from another, and separate the prophecies of the Old Testament from the New Testament in order to produce unsound doctrine.

We as God’s human creation are at war with spiritual darkness and Satan seeks to out maneuver us at every turn of history. Satan has spent countless years covering up the signs that shall mark the commencement of the day of the Lord and the gathering of the church. Let our generation be remembered as the generation that ended the cover-up.

This text now turns to prophecies spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ, and the references he made to the Old Testament prophets.

To be continued…

revel

 

[Revel]

JESUS CHRIST AND DANIEL, ISAIAH, AND MOSES

The day of the Lord refers not only to Christ’s descent from Heaven for the church but also to Christ’s descent for Israel.

Throughout the Old Testament, the prophets foretold what would become of the followers of the Old Covenant. Elements of these prophecies can be found in the very words of Christ in Matthew 24.

To set the stage to view Christ’s prophecy in the Gospel of Matthew, this text moves back to Old Testament times. What follows are prophecies given by Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses, respectively. These prophets foretold of the following: the Antichrist, the time of wrath, the signs that mark Christ’s return to the Holy Land, and the gathering of the remnant of Israel.

What Christ referenced in his prophecy is capitalized.

DANIEL:
He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven†[seven years]. In the middle of the “seven†he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Antichrist]. (Dan. 9:27)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [Daniel’s people: Israel]: AND THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE [ISRAEL] SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan. 12:1 KJV)

ISAIAH:
FOR THE STARS OF HEAVEN AND THE CONSTELLATIONS THEREOF SHALL NOT GIVE THEIR LIGHT: THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED IN HIS GOING FORTH, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. THEREFORE I WILL SHAKE THE HEAVENS, AND THE EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isa. 13:10–13 KJV)

In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be GATHERED up one by one. And in that day A GREAT TRUMPET will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem. (Isa. 27:12, 13)

MOSES:
That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and GATHER THEE FROM ALL THE NATIONS, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. IF ANY OF THINE BE DRIVEN OUT UNTO THE OUTMOST PARTS OF HEAVEN, FROM THENCE WILL THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it. (Deut. 30:3–5 KJV)

During his ministry, Christ also prophesied of what would become of Israel. In a single prophecy about his second coming to Israel, the Son of God spoke forth the collective voice of the three Old Testament prophets referenced above.

Christ prophesied of the Antichrist, the time of wrath, the signs that would mark his return to the Holy Land, and the gathering of the remnant of Israel. He introduced his prophecy by referring to Daniel and the final years of prophecy that lead up to the Apocalypse. What Christ referenced from the Old Testament is capitalized.

When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET [THE GREAT TRUMPET], and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS [OF THE EARTH], FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (Matt. 24:21–31 KJV)

Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses testify that this prophecy speaks of gathering Israelâ€â€not the church.

Zechariah prophesied of this future timeâ€â€revealing how Israel would suffer grievously, but that there would be those who would emerge victorious.

“In the whole land,†declares the Lord, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people, and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’†(Zech. 13:8, 9)

The prophecies given here by Christ and the Old Testament prophets drop right into the revelation given to John: it is the time of the seventh seal.

The revelation written down by Matthew (chapter 24) directly corresponds to the revelation written down by John (chapters 8 – 19). Christ’s revelation to John dramatically expounds upon the revelation he initially gave to Matthew.

Note: “A great sound of a trumpet†is a figure of speech known as Hendiadys, where it is “not two things, but one,†(E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible [Grand Rapids, Mich.: Kregel Publications, 1990], 1366. In essence, Christ referred to what Isaiah referred to: the great trumpet.

The great trumpet marks the arrival of Christ for Israel, and the last trumpet marks the arrival of Christ for the church. According to Hebrew authorities, the great trumpet and the last trumpet are not one and the same. They mark completely different sounds, and according to the Scriptures, they mark completely different arrivals of Christ.

Next: Paul and John: Thessalonians and Revelation.

To be continued…

revel

 

[Vic C.]

The great trumpet marks the arrival of Christ for Israel, and the last trumpet marks the arrival of Christ for the church. According to Hebrew authorities, the great trumpet and the last trumpet are not one and the same. They mark completely different sounds, and according to the Scriptures, they mark completely different arrivals of Christ.

Hey there...

My studies have revealed to me that Christ doesn't actually return to Earth for His ekklesia. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us we will meet up with the Lord in the air. Interpret that as you may.

His actual second advent will be at the end of Daniel's 70th. week and it will be to "claim" His chosen ones, "Israel" AND to reclaim the Earthly Kingdom that is rightfully His.

I agree that the last trump and the great trump are not the same trumps. Also, many who study End Times believe that the Trumps of God (mainly the ones in Corinthians and Thessalonians) are related to the angelic trumpets we read of in Revelations... They are not. The Trumps of God are just that, blown by the LORD Himself.

Another things about these trumps of God; they are in direct relation to Jewish events such as Rosh Hashanah. ;-) Now before someone says we are not to know the day and hour, I agree. Note this though;

Rosh Hashanah occurs on the first two days of the Feast Of Trumpets. So, which of the two days will it be? :

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

We are on the same page:

*Christ’s arrival for the ekklesia will be in the clouds… and is marked by the last trumpet.

*Christ’s arrival for Israel will be in the Holy Land at the end of the seventieth “sevenâ€Â… and is marked by the great trumpet.

*The "great trumpet" and the "last trumpet" are Hebrew terms that describe different sounds and these sounds are relative to the prophetic holy days, not the trumpet judgments of Revelation.

You posed a good question regarding the Feast of Trumpets. Let me offer this: As originally given by God, this feast was only one day in length, and began with the lunar sign of the seventh new moon. The religious authorities extended the feast to two days to accommodate everyone arriving for the feast.

Note: The modern Hebrew calendar no longer relies on the actual appearance of the seventh new moon to begin the feast; the two-day celebration is simply predetermined.

As far as we as Christ’s church are concerned, what matters is the original revelation that God gave Moses. What matters to us is what mattered to Moses and his followers: the appearance of the seventh new moon on the Hebrew calendar. That’s when the last trumpet will sound.

The seventh new moon is our lunar sign… the followers of the Old Covenant had the same sign. In essence, God’s €œsign†to his people remains unchanged.

revel

 

[MrVersatile48]

Much work has gone into this thread

Did you see Derek Prince, on http://www.God.TV last week?

He compared Bible prophecy to a skeleton & said Matt 24 is the backbone that holds everything in its place, coming from the mouth of Jesus in answer to His friends specifically asking what signs would show His return to be near

You can sum up His reply in one word: birthpains

He basically prophesied that all kinds of natural, social & spiritual disasters would multiply & intensify - as all birthpains always do - to bring on the Great Delivery: the instant airlift Rapture rescue that we also see clearly, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11, will be before the worst time on Earth comes


Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Danielâ€â€let the reader understandâ€â€
16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again.
22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€â€if that were possible.
25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door.

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,'
49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.
50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.
51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Footnotes:

Matthew 24:5 Or Messiah; also in verse 23
Matthew 24:15 Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11
Matthew 24:29 Isaiah 13:10; 34:4
Matthew 24:33 Or he
Matthew 24:34 Or race
Matthew 24:36 Some manuscripts do not have nor the Son.

 

[MrVersatile48]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The fig tree & other trees, putting forth their leaves, is in the Luke 21 record of that 'Olivet Discourse'

Signs of the End of the Age

5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said,
6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."
7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"

8He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.
13This will result in your being witnesses to them.

14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.
16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death.
17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish.
19By standing firm you will gain life.

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near.
31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.
35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

37Each day Jesus was teaching at the temple, and each evening he went out to spend the night on the hill called the Mount of Olives, 38and all the people came early in the morning to hear him at the temple.

Footnotes:

Luke 21:2 Greek two lepta
Luke 21:32 Or race

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible often uses trees as pictures of countries - many times, as in the cedars of Lebanon

The fig tree was its picture for Israel

But isn't it remarkable how many other countries have changed their names since Israel was reborn

Tho' we don't know the day or hour of Christ's return, God chose to reveal this climax generation of history as starting with the rebirth of Israel - see Ezekiel 36 & Jeremiah 31 etc

Daniel 7 forecast a revived Roman Empire to crush, devour & trample victims till the Ancient of Days tramples it

The Treaty of Rome fanfared the then-EEC as a revived Roman Empire, as have many modern EU leaders

Daniel 12 forecast the vast increase in both knowledge & travel that has so characterised this time

Revelation 17 & 2 Thessalonians 2 both prophesied the unprecedented occult revival that is now masked & spin-doctored as 'New Age' - & the apostate one-world-religion led by Rome

We have the weapons to wipe out mankind many times over - as in Joel 3, Zechariah 14 & Revelation 16-19

We also have the global Big Brother covert surveillance techno of Revelation 13

Zechariah 5 speaks of something in the sky that just happens to be the size & shape of many satellites

Rev 18 forecasts global financial collapse, & world debt is headline news today

Must go

Ian

 

[Vic C.]

Heh, GodTV, that's an "interesting" name. I will check out the site and their creditability.

Are you guys familiar with a gentleman by the name of Ted Montgomery? He seems to be on the same page as us too, revel.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

This is his "take" on rapture thoeries. If you scroll down to the very bottom of the page, there are links to his views on things such as The Chronology of Revelation, the 70th Week, etc.

But take his advice and read the Rapture page in it's entirity before clicking on his links throughout the article. It's long but informative and loaded with Scripture and verse parallels.

 

[Vic C.]

... Daniel 12 forecast the vast increase in both knowledge & travel that has so characterised this time...

Hey Ian. That is for sure the most popular interpretation, but it's not the one I subscribe to.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

In this verse, we are looking at words, words in a particular book. Daniel does not explain which book though. The end of the verse talks about in increasing of knowledge. In my opinion, referring to "to and fro" as pertaining to travel doesn't quite fit the theme of the verse, nor the 12th. chapter of Daniel. To me, that interpretation seems 'out of place'.

More likely it is referring to searching "to and fro" throughout the very vision revealed to Daniel. It could be referring to man's thorough investigation of Daniel's prophecy. Replace the phrase "run to and fro" with the word investigate and you will see where I am coming from. This seems to be the way they thought, spoke and wrote back then.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall investigate, and knowledge shall be increased.

Here is an excerpt from Ray Steadman. He is on the same page as I, but takes it a step further; he suggest both interpretations are possible and in harmony with each other. I can accept that as well.

Unquestionably the angel is here describing that which will happen until the time of the end is reached. What will occur before then? The angel says, "Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." That can be taken in two ways:

Some have taken it as a prediction of the present revolution in transportation and knowledge which is so characteristic of our own day. It anticipates this sudden amazing explosion of knowledge that has come in the last century or so. As you know, for thousands of years, methods of transportation were scarcely improved. Then man invented the steam engine and marvel followed upon marvel. The speed of transportation increased until now men are traveling eighteen thousand miles an hour and that is just the beginning. Along with this has come a fantastic increase in general knowledge that has produced our modern technological civilization. Many feel this is what the verse refers to.

Perhaps it does mean that. But I rather think it is much more likely that it refers to an increase in the knowledge of the book of Daniel. Many take it this way because it is in connection with the sealing up of the book that this is said. It would then mean "Many shall run to and fro throughout this vision." It would refer to an exhaustive investigation of the vision. Men shall investigate and carefully scrutinize the prophecies of Daniel, and the knowledge of the book shall increase as people study it through.

But perhaps something further should be said. Oftentimes what appears to be two different interpretations is not a case of either/or, but a case of both/and -- they both are true. It seems likely that that is the case here. There will be many studying the book of Daniel and prophecy in general, and the knowledge of prophecy will increase through the years as we approach the end. But because of that increase of knowledge in prophetic matters, there shall also break out an increase of knowledge in other matters, including transportation and general scientific knowledge.

That conclusion is not as foolish as it may seem. It can be demonstrated that the knowledge of men in secular matters is directly related to an understanding of the revelation of God. Any student of history knows that after the fifth century of this era, Europe drifted into a period of somnolence, ignorance, darkness, and mental torpor that even secular writers refer to as the "Dark Ages." Strangely enough, that period coincided with the removal of the Scriptures from the understanding of the common people. When the Scriptures were no longer available, men did not know much about life. But about the time of the dawn of the Reformation, even before Luther, but also including him, there came a reawakening that is called "the Renaissance," the rebirth of knowledge. It followed immediately upon the restoration of the Scriptures to the people and the restored knowledge of the Word of God.

http://www.pbc.org/dp/stedman/daniel/0369.html

Here is another site along the same train of thought.

http://www.prophecyforum.com/run.html

 

[MrVersatile48]

Best site I know for updates is http://www.HalLindsey.org

Click on the Hal Lindsey Report - it airs on several stations, as Hal has been respected as one of the best Bible prophecy teachers since his classic 1970s/'80s books, "The Late Great Planet Earth" & 'Countdown To Armageddon'

Pentagon generals once asked him to talk on endtime Bible scenarios & were astounded how closely they correlated to their own computer predictions

Kinda fits in with Daniel 12 vision of vastly increased knowledge at this climax generation of all history: we see the Bible being fulfilled almost daily on our TV screens

Of course, when Jesus said, "What you whisper in secret will be shouted from the rooftops", that's where TV aerials are

TV cameras are permanently scanning the skies above the Mount of Olives, to fulfil the prophecy that 'every eye shall see Him' - via satellite TV & public screens

Reminds me of John Hagee's widely acclaimed "Jerusalem Countdown"
- see http://www.jhm.org

John Hagee Today also airs on several channels

 

[Vic C.]

MrVersatile48,

basically what we are discussing here is not a pretribulation rapture, it's more inline with a pre wrath "catching up". No offense, but I'm not much into Lindsey or Hagee anymore.

Revel has put a lot of effort into this thread. Lets let him continue his thoughts for now.

Thanks.

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic and MrVersatile48,

I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Personally, I am enjoying this explosion of knowledge… I love the time we live in today… Why wouldn’t our God continue to raise the bar of knowledge regarding divine revelation. The time is now. The harvest is on the horizon.

Like you, my heart’s desire is to understand what God gave us to know…


PAUL AND JOHN: THESSALONIANS AND REVELATION

Both Paul and John receivedâ€â€and wrote down for usâ€â€divine revelation. In Christ’s revelation to John, he revealed not only what must be hereafter, but he placed the end-time prophecies in chronological order by numbering them. In essence, Christ took all the guesswork out of what will happen and the order in which it will happen. Herein, Paul’s prophecies are clearly ordered by John.

What else could we as Christ’s church believe… but that Paul and John… together… would give us the divine harmony of divine revelation… providing unique pieces of the same prophetic puzzle.

REVELATION

Here is what John heard: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter†(Rev. 1:19 KJV).

“The things which shall be hereafter†begin in chapter 4: “After this I [John] looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter†(Rev. 4:1 KJV).

What must be hereafter? End-time events.

For this thread, the most important picture of Christ’s revelation to John is this:

The Book of Revelation contains the chronological sequence of events pertaining to the day of the Lord. In this sequence of events, Christ revealed that he would descend from Heaven not once, but twice.

1. THE SIXTH SEAL: THE CHURCH

How do we know the sixth seal refers to the church, and the rapture of it? Christ gave us the “sign†of his arrival for the church (Rev. 6:12), first spoken by both Peter and Joel (Acts 2:20; Joel 2:31): the sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red.

2. THE SEVENTH SEAL: ISRAEL

The
7 years of Daniel’s
70th “seven†corresponds to the
7-year prophecy that follows the
7th seal…

Both Daniel and John prophesied of the Antichrist in the context of the seven-year prophecy.

According to the Old Testament prophets, Christ, and John, the seven-year span of time pertains to Daniel’s “people†(Dan. 9:24): Israel. The culmination of this time is the arrival of Christ with the saints: Revelation 19.

The prophetic picture given by John was first given by Paul.

1 THESSALONIANS

1. Our Lord shall descend for us, the church, and gather us in the cloudsâ€â€at the onset of the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2, 4, 9; 4:16, 17). According to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.

2. The church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9). According to John, the wrath commences after the seventh seal opens.

2 THESSALONIANS

1. The rise and fall of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:3, 4, 8–10). John expounded upon Paul’s prophecy in Revelation: chapters 13 – 19.

2. Christ shall descend with his angels in judgment (2 Thess. 1:7–9; 2:8). Revelation states that Christ will descend from Heaven with the saints (the church) and this will come to pass seven years after the seventh seal opens (19:8, 11–21).

Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians focused on Christ’s second descent and the destruction of evil. In doing so, Paul reinforced what he already gave the church in his first letter: comfort. Paul gave comfort in the knowledge of the following: Christ shall gather and save the church before the time of wrath, and the Antichrist cannot rise to power until after the church is gathered.

Whereas the church will be saved “away from†the wrath by being drawn off the Earth at the time of the sixth seal, Israel will be saved “out†of the wrath seven years after the seventh seal opensâ€â€when Christ descends with the saints.

It is Israel, not the church that will be on the Earth during the time of the seventh seal. This is the time of great distress for Israel foretold by Jeremiah; it is “the time of Jacob’s [Israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it†(Jer. 30:7 KJV).

Yet, some of our religious ancestors used Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians to teach the church will be on the Earth during the rise of the Antichrist and will remain on the Earth throughout the wrath of the seventh seal.

If Christ’s revelation to Paul places the church in the clouds at the onset of the day of the Lord, and Christ’s revelation to John places the church in Heaven before the seventh seal opens, then how could Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians state the complete opposite?

How is it possible that our religious ancestors could have come up with this interpretation of 2 Thessalonians?

We have to ask this: Why did Paul need to write the second letter?

Next: Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians.

revel

 

[Revel]

MOSES, ISAIAH, JEREMIAH, EZEKIEL, DANIEL, PAUL, and JOHN

Prior to moving on to Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians, I would like to introduce Paul’s letter by setting the stage; it is a stage given by Jeremiah: “it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jer. 30:7 KJV)

This prophecy of Jeremiah had an immediate fulfillment relative to the Babylonian captivity, and this prophecy has an ultimate fulfillment relative to the captivity under the Antichrist. God delivered the followers of the Old Covenant out of trouble when he set them free from Babylon, and God will again deliver the followers of the Old Covenant out of trouble when he sets them free from the Antichrist. Paul prophesied of this ultimate fulfillment (2 Thess. 1:7–9).

Many Old Testament writings contain a dual purpose: an immediate fulfillment before the time of Christ and an ultimate fulfillment in the presence of the Christ.

How do we know this?

The precedent given to us by God through Moses enables us to see God’s vision. “The law is . . . a shadow of the good things that are coming†(Heb. 10:1).

This precedent established by Moses carries throughout the Old Testament. The Old Testament writings foreshadowed what would ultimately come to pass in New Testament times.

Not only was Satan blind to the MYSTERY (1 Cor. 2:7, 8; Eph. 3:4–6; Col. 1:27), he was blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “Jacobâ€Ââ€â€which was interwoven in the prophecies of Moses and of other Old Testament prophets, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel.

What follows is Jeremiah’s prophecy regarding “Jacob’s trouble.†What you are about to read applies to Jacob’s captivity under Babylon and the Antichrist. The terminology that reflects end-times is capitalized.

JEREMIAH: Jacob’s Trouble
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I WILL BRING [BACK FROM] AGAIN THE CAPTIVITY OF MY PEOPLE ISRAEL AND JUDAH, SAITH THE LORD: AND I WILL CAUSE THEM TO RETURN TO THE LAND THAT I GAVE TO THEIR FATHERS, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, AS A WOMAN IN TRAVAIL, and all FACES ARE TURNED INTO PALENESS? Alas! for THAT DAY is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: IT IS EVEN THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and DAVID THEIR KING, WHOM I WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEM. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; AND JACOB SHALL RETURN, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. (Jer. 30:1–10 KJV)

The capitalized terminology reflects end-time prophecies given by Isaiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel. Each prophecy is in the context of the day of the Lord, which includes the time of the Antichrist.

ISAIAH
Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe LIKE A WOMAN IN LABOR. They will look aghast at each other, THEIR FACES AFLAME. See, THE DAY OF THE LORD is comingâ€â€a cruel day, with wrath and fierce angerâ€â€to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. (Isa. 13:8, 9)

The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in THAT DAY. For THE DAY OF THE LORD OF HOSTS shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low. (Isa. 2:11, 12 KJV)

DANIEL
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people [DANIEL’S PEOPLE: JACOB], will arise. There will be a TIME OF DISTRESS SUCH AS HAS NOT HAPPENED from the beginning of nations until then. (Dan. 12:1)

EZEKIEL
MY SERVANT DAVID WILL BE KING OVER THEM, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. THEY WILL LIVE IN THE LAND I GAVE TO MY SERVANT JACOB, THE LAND WHERE YOUR FATHERS LIVED. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and DAVID MY SERVANT WILL BE THEIR PRINCE FOREVER. (Ezek. 37:24, 25)

Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I WILL NOW BRING JACOB BACK FROM CAPTIVITY AND WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, and I will be zealous for my holy name. (Ezek. 39:25)

Through his prophets, God’s vision of deliverance for his people stretched far into the future. Prophecies given over 2500 years ago about Jacob’s deliverance are still future tense. Jeremiah gave one of those prophecies: “Jacob’s trouble.â€Â

Jeremiah is speaking about Jacob’s trouble, not the church’s trouble:
“But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend†(Isa. 41:8 KJV). It is Jacob, not the church that will have “trouble†under the reign of the Antichrist.

Jeremiah’s prophecy applied to the followers of the Old Covenant before the time of Christ and it will again apply to the followers of the Old Covenant in the presence of the Christ.

The NIV Study Bible states the following about “Jacob’s troubleâ€Â: “A description of the day of the Lord. . . . Jeremiah’s immediate reference is to the foreseeable future [Babylon] (see vv. 8, 18), but a more remote time in the Messianic age is also in view.â€Â

Prophecies that have the “Messianic age in view†are given by numerous Old Testament prophets, and find parallels with the New Testament apostles. The prophecy of Jacob’s trouble drops right into the chronological sequence of end-time events:

1.Christ’s descent from Heaven with the church to rescue Jacob out of the grip of the Antichrist, and, in addition, gather Jacob.
2.The 1000-year kingdom of Christ.
3.The destruction of Gog and Magog.

The prophecies given by Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Paul, and John combine to give us this picture.

EZEKIEL, JEREMIAH, PAUL, AND JOHN

Prophecies given by Ezekiel and John are clearly linked by virtue of the fact that they both spoke of Gog and Magog. In addition, the prophecies given by Ezekiel and Jeremiah (about Jacob’s trouble) overlap, and therefore, both make reference to what will ultimately be fulfilled in the presence of the Christ.

Ezekiel’s prophecy had an immediate fulfillment before the time of Christ, and will have an ultimate fulfillment in the presence of the Christ.

EZEKIEL: 38
The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against GOG, OF THE LAND OF MAGOG, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole armyâ€â€your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords.’†(Ezek. 38:1–4)

This is what will happen in that day: When GOG ATTACKS THE LAND OF ISRAEL, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. . . . I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I WILL POUR DOWN TORRENTS OF RAIN, HAILSTONES AND BURNING SULFUR ON HIM AND ON HIS TROOPS AND ON THE MANY NATIONS WITH HIM. And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord. (Ezek. 38:18, 22, 23)

John’s reference to Ezekiel, and the ultimate fulfillment of his prophecy, is found in Revelation 20.

REVELATION: 20
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive THE NATIONS which are in the four quarters of the earth, GOG AND MAGOG, TO GATHER THEM TOGETHER TO BATTLE: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. AND THEY WENT UP ON THE BREADTH OF THE EARTH, AND COMPASSED THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS ABOUT, AND THE BELOVED CITY: AND FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, AND DEVOURED THEM. (Rev. 20:7–9 KJV)

God linked Ezekiel and John by using the same terminology: Gog and Magog. Without question, Ezekiel’s prophecy will be ultimately fulfilled in the presence of the Christ. After the 1000-year kingdom of Christ, the enemies of God will be destroyed, and this time, never will they rise again.

The following is taken from Nelsons’ New Illustrated Bible Dictionary: “Gogâ€â€The leader of a confederacy of armies that attacked the land of Israel. Described as ‘the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal,’ Gog is also depicted as being ‘of the land of Magog’ (Ezek. 38:2–3), a ‘place out of the far north’ of Israel. Ezekiel prophetically describes Gog and his allies striking at Israel with a fierce and sudden invasion (Ezekiel 38-39). According to Ezekiel’s prophecy, Gog will be crushed on the mountains of Israel in a slaughter so great it will take seven months to bury the dead (Ezek. 39:12). In the Book of Revelation, Gog and Magog reappear as symbols of the nations of the world that will march against God’s people in the end times (Rev. 20:7–8).â€Â

Take a look at the greater context of Ezekiel’s prophecy. God is referring to the millennial kingdom.

EZEKIEL: 37
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I AM GOING TO OPEN YOUR GRAVES AND BRING YOU UP FROM THEM; I WILL BRING YOU BACK TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU AND YOU WILL LIVE, AND I WILL SETTLE YOU IN YOUR OWN LAND. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord. (Ezek. 37:12–14)

I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. THERE WILL BE ONE KING OVER ALL OF THEM and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. MY SERVANT DAVID WILL BE KING OVER THEM, AND THEY WILL ALL HAVE ONE SHEPHERD. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. THEY WILL LIVE IN THE LAND I GAVE TO MY SERVANT JACOB, THE LAND WHERE YOUR FATHERS LIVED. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and DAVID MY SERVANT WILL BE THEIR PRINCE FOREVER. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. (Ezek. 37:22–26)

The NIV Study Bible states the following about Ezekiel 38 and 39: “The future restoration of Israel under the reign of the house of David (ch. 37) will bring about a massive coalition of world powers to destroy God’s kingdom. But the vast host [Gog and Magog] that comes against Jerusalem will end up as dead bodies strewn over the fields of the promsed land. Israel will become the cemetery of the enemy hordes (cf. ch. 37).â€Â

Ezekiel and Jeremiah provide unique pieces of the divine puzzle and together give us a picture of what shall be for Jacob. Just as the ancient enemies of Gog and Magog foreshadowed the end-times enemy of Revelation 20, so likewise the Babylonian captivity of Jacob foreshadowed the end-times captivity of Jacob under the Antichrist. The revelation Christ gave to Paul explained how Jacob would be delivered out of his trouble in the end times: Christ shall descend from Heaven with his armies (2 Thess. 1:7–9).

Next: Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians.

revel