The "Signless" Return: Dogma

[Vic C.]

He revel,

You quoted Daniel 12:1, but I don't actually see a commentary on that verse. Maybe I messed, but anyways, I would like to add a commentary by a former Jew and now-converted follower of Christ as Messiah; Marvin J. Rosenthal. He WAS a believer of the Pre-Trib theory for 35 years and WAS director of the "Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry". He was "forced" to leave a 15 year ministry because he could not sign off on their Pre-Trib doctrinal statement, due to his convictions.

I add this commentary because I too believe what he teaches here:

...According to this widely held view then, to "stand up" means that Michael will come to Israel's defense while she is experiencing the Great Tribulation.

With respect for those who champion this position, I nonetheless strongly suggest that the text is teaching precisely the exact opposite. Michael does not "stand up" to help Daniel's people during the Great Tribulation. He "stands still" or "desists" from his normal role as defender of Israel, thus permitting the Great Tribulation to occur.

In other words, the Great Tribulation is not the cause for Michael to come to Israel's defense. Rather, it is because he desists from defending her that the Great Tribulation occurs.

The expression "stand up" is the translation of the Hebrew word amad. Amad simply means to "stand." It does not mean to "stand up," and it does not mean to "stand still." It simply means to "stand." If a man seated and inactive were said to amad, he would "stand up." However, if a man already standing and active were said to amad, he would "stand still," or desist, in his activity....

http://www.zionsfire.org/daniel.html

And this:

Daniel had just been told by the angel who was sharing this prophetic vision with him that Michael was actively involved in the defense of Daniel's people. The angel said to Daniel, "But the prince [a fallen angel] of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me" (Dan. 10:13). Michael was actively engaged in helping Israel. And once again the angel said to Daniel, "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince" (Dan. 10:21).

So why would Daniel be telling us in 12:1 Michael will come to the defense of His people here when in fact, he already has been defending them?? Seems a bit redundant to me.

What does the word "holdeth" (Hebrew, chazaq) mean? According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, holdeth can mean "to bind" or "restrain." That means, in context, that the archangel Michael already had a hindering or restraining ministry against the forces of Satan on Israel's behalf. So when it is said that Michael will "stand," it means he will "stand still," "desist," or "cease" from defending Israel.

This, of course, would be in dramatic contrast to Michael's normal activity described in the words "which standeth [a present, continuous action] for the children of thy people" (Dan. 12:1). In other words, just prior to the Great Tribulation the archangel Michael will cease or desist from what was his historically ongoing responsibility of defending Israel.

It would make little sense to tell Daniel that Michael was defending his people in Chapter 12 when he had already clearly told him that fact, not once but twice, in Daniel, Chapter 10.

Rashi, one of Israel's greatest teachers, and a man whose Hebrew scholarship is unexcelled, understood "stand up" (Hebrew, amad) to literally mean "stand still" in Daniel 12:1. He wrote: "The Holy One [a Jewish designation for God], Blessed be He, said to Michael, 'You are silent? You do not defend my children.'"

Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible says that amad means "to stand, stand still or fast." And Strong's Concordance cites one of the root meanings of amad as "cease," and one of its definitions as "stand still." A biblical illustration of amad meaning "to be still or desist is, "they...stood still [desisted], and answered no more" (Job 32:16).

I could go on an on quoting from the site, but I beg anyone who is really interested in learing this from a Jewish perspective to read this link:

http://www.zionsfire.org/daniel.html
and
http://www.zionsfire.org/daniel_afinallook.html

Why trust scholars on this particular matter, other than Jewish ones, when we know for a fact that the OT was written by Hebrews?

Just some food for thought... this knowledge changes the way we understand End Times and the preconceived ideas of Michael's role in End Times AND our understanding of who the Restrainer is that Paul alludes to in 2 Thess 2:7.

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

Thank you for your post regarding “Michael.â€Â

I spent time researching what you shared and have written a draft.
With all due respect, allow me to respond to your post in a few days.

At this time, I have a few posts, two of which are lengthy, that I’d like to share.

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

Hello to everyone following this,

If the New Testament is divine revelation, then every prophecy given by our Lord must be in harmony with one anotherâ€â€from Matthew to Revelation. If the Old Testament is divine revelation, then all prophecies about “the day of the Lord†in both Testaments are in perfect harmony with one another.

I believe each Testament is divine revelation, and I have to believe that many of you reading this feel the same way.

If you have been following this, you have a fairly good idea of what my interest is: to search through the divine harmony of divine revelation given by our Lord, and see the parallel prophecies given by the Old Testament prophets.

What follows is revelation given by our Lord to John and Peter. In these two posts, I pose a number of questions… They are designed to provoke thought for all of us in the body of Christ…

If you are inspired to do so, please share your thoughts as you see fit.

You have my apologies regarding 2 Thessalonians. It will follow. I’m just not sure when.

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

Hello to everyone following this,

If the good news of Christ ended with the Gospels, then why didn’t Heaven end the New Testament with the Gospel of John?

Why did Christ need to continue to give revelation to his apostles after he ascended to Heaven?

Is it possible that Christ’s revelation given to his apostles shed additional, divine light upon end-time prophecies first given in the Old Testament and the Gospels?

Why else would Christ continue to give revelation from Heaven unless he was expounding upon the good news he first gave during his earthly ministry?

This additional information includes the vision of the church in Heavenâ€â€marked at the sixth seal…

When the sixth seal opens, the sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red, and this marks a dramatic, divine threshold: every human being on the planet will be impacted.

Shouldn’t we as Christ’s church seek to understand what Christ is revealing to us about this time?

My question is this: How can any prophecy Christ gave in the Gospels, or any prophecy in the Old Testament, contradict Christ’s own vision of the church in Heaven when the sixth seal opens (Rev. 7:9-17)?

Doesn’t it make sense that we as the body of Christ, together, should honestly research why our Lord would give us this vision?

Shouldn’t it be important for us to understand why our Lord numbered the visions he gave us in his final revelation to John?

Why else would Christ number the visions but to show us the chronological order of end-time events?

Is it possible that Christ’s final revelation pulls together all the prophets and apostles in one book, Revelation, and sets in order their prophecies that speak to “the day of the Lord�

This is where I am coming from: Not only was Satan blind to the MYSTERY (1 Cor. 2:7, 8; Eph. 3:4–6; Col. 1:27), and blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “Jacob†(Jacob’s trouble), Satan was blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “the day of the Lord.â€Â

This hidden wisdom was fully revealed by our glorified Lord after he ascended into Heaven. Central to this hidden wisdom is the vision Christ gave to John of the church in Heaven… in the Book of Revelation.

Look at how John begins Revelation:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he sawâ€â€that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. (Rev. 1:1-3)

According to the revelation given by our Lord…

What will happen to Earth’s population when the sixth seal opens, and the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red? . . .

Christ’s revelation about the sixth seal gives us three separate visions about three separate groups of people…

Paul revealed that Heaven sees Earth’s population as follows: “THE JEWS. . . THE GENTILES. . . THE CHURCH OF GOD†(1 Cor. 10:32 kjv).

In his revelation about the sixth seal, Christ gave three separate visions of three separate groups of people with three separate fates.

Is it possible that Christ gave three separate visions to describe what shall become of the three separate groups of people: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God?

CHRIST’S REVELATION: THE SIXTH SEAL

Here is one vision given by Christ:

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. (Rev. 7:4-8)

Is Christ referring to “the Jews [Israel],†“the Gentiles,†or to “the church of God�

Israel.

Where is this group of people after the sixth opens? Heaven? Or Earth?

This is how the vision of the 144,000 is introduced:

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.†(Rev. 7:1-3)

The “sea†and the “trees†are on the Earth and so is Israel.

This is also seen when the wrath actually begins: “They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads†(Rev. 8:4). The 144,000 who have “the seal of God on their foreheads†shall be shielded from this harm.

Without question, at the time of the sixth seal, Christ’s revelation places Israel on the Earth.

Here is another vision:

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.â€Â

All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

“Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!â€Â

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robesâ€â€who are they, and where did they come from?†I answered, “Sir, you know.†And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.†(Rev. 7:9-17)

Is Christ referring to “the Jews [Israel],†“the Gentiles,†or to “the church of God�

Which group of people washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb?

The church.

According to Christ, where is this group of people? Earth? Or Heaven?

To everyone in the body of Christ… When we stand before our Lord in Heaven, our robes will be white because of the blood of the Lamb.

Why else would Christ give us a vision of the church in Heaven after the sixth seal opens, unless the church is in Heaven after the sixth seal opens?

How can we as Christ’s churchâ€â€with clear conscience before our Lordâ€â€just dismiss this vision?

What can we hope to gain by not embracing it?

How can any theologian, any minister, any Christian, any human being successfully overturn or explain away Christ’s vision of the church standing before the throne of Heaven after the sixth seal opens?

Here is another vision from the sixth seal:

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?†(Rev. 6:15-17)

Is Christ referring to “the Jews [Israel],†“the Gentiles,†or to “the church of God�

Who are those who want to hide from Christ?

Is Christ referring to the church hiding from their own Lord?

Or is this vision describing those who reject Jesus as the Messiah: the Gentiles and the Jews?

Doesn’t it make sense that those who reject Christ would seek to hide from Christ?

This third vision is referring the Gentiles and the Jews.

According to Christ, where are they? Heaven? Or Earth?

Earth.

So, what did our Lord show us about will happen to the three groups of people when the sixth seal opens?

1.The Gentiles and the Jews will hide throughout the Earth from the Messiah that they rejected.
2.144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel will be sealed on the Earth.
3.The church of God will be standing before the throne of Heaven.

The sixth seal marks the onset of “the day of the Lord†and our Lord revealed to us what shall become of everyone when he descends in the clouds.

If the visible Christ were not descending in the clouds at the opening of the sixth seal, then why would those left on Earth say, “hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb�

Whose face are they looking at when the sixth seal opens?

Why shouldn’t we as the body of Christ refer to the revelation already given to John?

[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him (Rev. 1:7).

If every eye will see Christ, then wouldn’t they see his “face†too?

…What did Christ reveal to us regarding the signs of the sixth seal?

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. (Rev. 6:12, 13)

When the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red…
God will signal us that “the day of the Lord†is upon us: we as the church will rejoice, 144,000 of Israel will be sealed, and everyone else will be in a state of fear.

What reason could we offer to Christ to justify not taking his revelation at face value? In other words, how can we as his church justify not believing his revelation as literally given?

What did Christ’s revelation to John reveal to us?

It revealed the wisdom hidden within “the day of the Lordâ€Â: a unique section of prophecy about “the day of the Lord†applied exclusively to the churchâ€â€and applied exclusively to Christ’s coming for the church.

When the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red…
the onset of the day of the Lord is upon us. It is then that Christ shall descend from Heav to transform and transport the churchâ€â€not seven years later.

Without question, “the day of the Lord†is the span of time marking Heaven’s intervention. The Old Testament prophets clearly spoke of this, but it wasn’t until Christ gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the church that the fullness of this intervention was made known. Enter: the sixth seal. There, Christ gave us information not found anywhere else in the Bible.

What should we as the body of Christ do with it?

Perhaps some of you coordinate or participate in a Bible study group…
Why not introduce the sixth seal as a topic for discussion?

I invite anyone reading this to share his or her thoughts on the sixth seal.

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

Hello again,

On the first day of the church, Peter also referred to the sun turning dark and the moon turning blood red. Why?

This is what Peter quoted from Joel:

“The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood…. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€Â

Why did Peter quote this from Joel’s prophecy?

What is the point that Peter is making?

Who are those who call on the name of the Lord?

Why else would Peter quote Joel on the first day of the church unless it applied to church?

Could it be that through Peter, Christ revealed to the “world†Heaven’s wisdom hidden within Joel’s prophecy of “the day of the Lord�

What follows is Joel’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord.†What is in bold is what Peter declared on Pentecost.

JOEL: The day of the Lord
The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?. . . Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
“In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. . . . . Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!†Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O Lord!
“Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full and the vats overflowâ€â€so great is their wickedness!†Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. THE LORD WILL ROAR FROM ZION AND THUNDER FROM JERUSALEM; THE EARTH AND THE SKY WILL TREMBLE. BUT THE LORD WILL BE A REFUGE FOR HIS PEOPLE, A STRONGHOLD FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. “Then you will know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her. (Joel 2:11, 27-32; 3:1, 2, 9-17)

Why did Peter quote what he quoted?

Could it be that Peter revealed the wisdom hidden within Joel’s prophecy: there are two separate prophecies that shall be fulfilled at two different times for two different groups of people?

The Church: The Sixth Seal: The first arrival of Christ:
“And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€Â

Seven years after Christ ascends to Heaven with the church…

Israel: The Seventh Seal: The second arrival of Christ:
“The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.â€Â

Could it be that there is a dual prophecy contained in “the day of the Lord,†meaning, there are prophecies throughout the entire Bible about “the day of the Lord†that apply exclusively to the church and prophecies about “the day of the Lord†that apply exclusively to Israel?

Allow yourself to consider this: Satan wants the church to ignore Peter’s prophecy; Satan wants the church to read Joel’s prophecy as if Peter never said anything on Pentecost.

The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?. . . Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
“In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. . . . . Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!†Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O Lord!
“Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full and the vats overflowâ€â€so great is their wickedness!†Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. THE LORD WILL ROAR FROM ZION AND THUNDER FROM JERUSALEM; THE EARTH AND THE SKY WILL TREMBLE. BUT THE LORD WILL BE A REFUGE FOR HIS PEOPLE, A STRONGHOLD FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. “Then you will know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her. (Joel 2:11, 27-32; 3:1, 2, 9-17)

Why should we as the body of Christ read this prophecy the way Satan wants it read?

Why shouldn’t we read this prophecy the way Christ wants it read? On the first day of the church, Peter proclaimed God’s hidden wisdom: a unique section of Joel’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord†applied exclusively to the churchâ€â€and applied exclusively to Christ’s coming for the church. It is a prophecy that once was hidden, and then was revealed.

It is a prophecy within a prophecy.

Why not proclaim to your Bible study group what Peter proclaimed on Pentecost?

The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To everyone in the body of Christ … We call on the name of the Lord and we will be saved when the sun turns to darkness and the moon turns blood red. According to Christ’s revelation to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.

This is the hidden wisdom of God: “the day of the Lord†marks a span of time that shall witness not a single, divine event, but a single, divine event for each group that God will rescue: the church and Israel. This is the dual prophecy; this is Heaven’s hidden wisdom as revealed by Christ after he ascended into Heaven.

Why else did Peter quote Joel but to show us this?

This revelation that Christ revealed about the church on Pentecost is nowhere to be found in the Gospels. In other words, the revelation that Christ revealed about Joel’s prophecy (from Heaven) went beyond the revelation he revealed while in the Holy Land.

If anyone following this disagrees with the divine harmony Christ’s revelation given to Peter and John, then please share with me your thoughts about Peter’s prophecy…

Why did Peter quote Joel on Pentecost?

What is Peter telling the church on the first day of the church?

I honestly would like to know your thoughts regarding Peter’s prophecy on Pentecost.

God bless.

revel

 

[Vic C.]

The Church: The Sixth Seal: The first arrival of Christ:
“And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€Â

Seven years after Christ ascends to Heaven with the church…

Israel: The Seventh Seal: The second arrival of Christ:
“The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.

Now I'm confused. Christ's first arrival was at His birth. His second advent, or arrival will be at the conclusion of the 70th. week, finalizing the Wrath and to gather His Chosen ones; Israel. I do not understand the seven year thingy. From my calculations, the ekklesia is gathered late in the 70th. week, (between 6th. and 7th. seal) somewhere during the second half, just before the Day of the Lord (God's wrath) The promise given to us in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is for those who have put their trust and Faith in Jesus. correct?

Just a thought, maybe a timeline of events as you see them would clear up any confusion. I'm not sure, now that you have mentioned a seven year period, if you are proposing a pre-70th. week harpazio.

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

I think your suggestion for a time line is a good one.

Allow me first to say that I would like to address “Michael†at a future time, and do so in the context of 2 Thessalonians. Not only will it be a good fit with Christ’s revelation to Paul, but I think it is important that we stay with the thought we are on now: the time line.

Let me begin with the first day of the church...

On Pentecost, Christ’s revelation said the church will be “saved.â€Â

What does it mean that we as the church will be “saved�

Christ’s revelation to John (about future salvation) expounded upon the revelation he gave to Peter on Pentecost...

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO JOHN: THE ORDER OF EVENTS

I ask that you first ponder these questions:

Is it possible that Christ’s final revelation to John ends all debate regarding the chronological sequence of events that pertain to “the day of the Lord�

Is it possible that all pieces of the end-time prophetic puzzle given throughout the Old and New Testaments are in agreement with the Revelation framework?

Why else would Christ number the prophecies but to show us the chronological order of end-time events?

Christ’s final revelation to John marks the last book of the Bible, but it is the first place we look to understand how all pieces of the puzzleâ€â€given by both prophets and apostlesâ€â€fit together. In other words, Revelation explains the relative nature of what the prophets said and what the apostles said about “the day of the Lord.†Therefore, Christ’s final revelation to us is the key that unlocks the entire Bible regarding “the day of the Lord.â€Â

To begin, Peter’s prophecy on Pentecost applies only to those who follow the New Covenant. Christ shall descend from Heaven for the followers of the New Covenant when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red. According to Christ’s revelation to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.

THE SIXTH SEAL: SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO THE CHURCH
John: Rev. 6:12-14
Peter: Acts 2:20, 21: “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€Â

According to Christ’s revelation, what does it mean that we as the church will be “saved�

Christ’s revelation given to us after he ascended to Heaven revealed the fullness of our salvation.

Paul: 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9
Paul: Rom. 5:9: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.â€Â
Paul: 1 Thess. 4:15-17: According to the Lord’s own word. . . [T]he Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

“According to the Lord’s own word†…

Who among us in the body of Christ believes that the transformation of the church is the salvation of the church--and that it is “according to the Lord’s own word� In other words, who among us believes Christ’s revelation to Paul?

The sixth seal marks the resurrection of the followers of the New Covenant. How else can all of Christ’s church stand before the throne of Heaven unless the dead in Christ were resurrected?

After the church is gathered in the clouds/sky, what happens next?
John: Rev. 7:9-17

Look at our cry of triumph… This is our cry of salvation in Heaven when we are with our Lord:

“SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!†(REV. 7:10)

That’s us.
This is what we as Christ’s church will proclaim when we stand before the throne of Heaven.
This is what Christ meant on Pentecost when he said we will be “saved.â€Â

After Christ descends from Heaven to transform and transport the church, then comes the seventh seal. It is the time of wrath foretold by the prophets and apostles.

Salvation exclusive to Israel will not come to pass for another seven years. At the end of the seven years, the Jews who are still “standing†will be rescued from the grip of the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon when the Lord roars from Zion.

THE SEVENTH SEAL: THE WRATH: SEVEN YEARS
Christ’s revelation to John: Rev. 8 – 18.

This is the time of “Jacob’s troubleâ€Ââ€â€not the church’s trouble. How can the church get into trouble? It’s in Heaven.

During the “wrath,†the world shall witness three and a half years of God’s prophets and then three and a half years of Satan’s prophets:

And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev. 11:3)

The beast [the Antichrist] was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. . . . Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:5, 11)

This seven-year prophecy of John was first given by the prophet Daniel. Known as the seventieth “seven,†this is the final seven years of prophecy decreed for Daniel’s people, which is Israel (Dan. 9:24).

While in the Holy Land, Christ himself foretold of this future time: Matthew: 24:21-28.

From Heaven, Christ gave revelation to Paul about this time:
2 Thess. 2:3, 4, 9-12.

THE SEVENTH SEAL: SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL
John: Rev. 19:11-21
Paul: 2 Thess. 1:7-9; 2:8
Jude: 14, 15
Matthew: 24:29-31
Luke: 17:22-37
Isaiah: 66:15, 16
Joel: 2:32b, 3:1-16
Zech.: 14:3-5

At the end of the seventieth “seven,†Christ shall descend from Heaven again, this time to save Israelâ€â€and Christ shall do so with his church.

The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. . . . Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints. (Rev. 19:14, 8)

We are the saints, and after being in Heaven for seven years, we shall descend from Heaven with our Lord to destroy the Antichrist and rescue Israel.

Whereas the sixth seal marks the resurrection of the followers of the New Covenant, the seventh seal marks the resurrectif the followers of Old Covenant (Dan. 12:1, 2)â€â€as well as those martyred under the beast.

Finally…

…Christ's church is fractured along so many different lines. Imagine for a moment that we all embrace Christ’s final revelation to John: the church is in Heaven after the sixth seal opens. If we as Christ’s church believe Christ’s revelation, we could finally speak with one voiceâ€â€Christ’s voiceâ€â€on the subject of our own future “salvation.â€Â

God bless.

revel

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks for the clarification. All this time, up 'til recently, I thought we were both inline with a prewrath harpazio, which we are. I follow your timeline, but where we differ is; I find no Biblical evidence that the Great Tribulation nor the Wrath of God is seven years in length. I see the first 4 seals as being in the first half of Daniel's 70th. week. I see the fifth seal as being parallel with what is happenning in Revelation 12's beginning verses. I see this as being the "midpoint" of the seventh week. I also see this as being the start of the Great Tribulation; the time where Satan first goes after Israel, then turns his attention to the "remnant" (us) due to the events that transpire in Revelation 12:13-17.

I believe the sixth seal brings us well into the second half of the seventh week. The events described for us in the trumpets and bowls are all God's wrath. They commence late in the second half and finish up sometime in the additinal 30 period which follows Daniel's initial 1260 days.

It is worthy to note that not all of Revelation is chronological. I believe we are taken back to midpoint somewhere around ch. 12 'til somewhere in ch. 15, which brings us back to the last of God's plagues (bowls, or vials).

Now, I may be off a few verses or so, but this section of Revelation seems to be out of sequences.

Sorry to have 'sidetracked' your thread. 8-)

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

OK. I see where you are coming from on this.

Perhaps a good place for us to start is to seek common ground…

You and I are in the body of Christ; we are filled with the Holy Spirit; we embrace Jesus as the Messiah; we call on the name of the Lord, and we shall be “saved†when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red. Christ’s revelation on Pentecost speaks of salvation exclusive to the church.

This is where I am coming from…

Every prophecy about the salvation of the church can only build upon the foundation our Lord gave us on the first day of the church.

How else can we look at Christ’s revelation to Paul and John, but that it expounds upon what we first heard through Peter?

If our Lord gave revelation on Pentecost that the church will saved, and that it will come to pass in conjunction with specific celestial signs, then shouldn’t we allow this revelation to help us understand all prophecies pertaining to the salvation of the churchâ€â€including those found in Revelation?

The fundamental question then is this: If Christ revealed to Peter that his descent for the church corresponds to specific solar and lunar signs, then why couldn’t we follow the same example into the Book of Revelation, and mark the descent of Christ to the same solar and lunar signs?

In other words, if our Lord gave us divine authority (on Pentecost) to proclaim to his church we shall be saved when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation andâ€â€with absolute, divine confidenceâ€â€mark the descent of Christ to the same solar and lunar signs (the sixth seal)?

This is where I am coming from: Christ’s own apostles, in this case Peter, help us to understand Revelation.

Take a look at the next post on this subject of Christ’s descent for the church. It is revelation given to Paul. Like Peter, Paul can help us to understand Revelation.

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic and everyone else following this,

Christ’s revelation to Paul…

Without question, Paul’s prophecy in Thessalonians (1 Thess. 4:16, 17) is central to our understanding of Christ’s descent in the clouds, but it is also true that Christ’s revelation given to the Corinthians added additional information regarding this descentâ€â€which includes unmistakable revelation that the glory of our Lord will be seen.

Paul opened his letter to the church speaking of the glorious hope of Christ’s arrival for the church.

I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every wayâ€â€in all your speaking and in all your knowledgeâ€â€because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed [Greek: Apokalupsis]. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:4-8)

We as Christ’s church await the arrival of our Lord to transform and transport us off the planet. It is “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.â€Â

Apokalupsis means, “appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.†This will be the celestial reality for the world to see: Christ’s glory will be revealed when he descends in the clouds to transform the church.

Paul closed the same letter by expounding upon this hope of Christ’s arrival for the church:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Cor. 15:20-23)

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedâ€â€in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.†(1 Cor. 15:51-54)

Christ’s revelation to Paul about the church is in harmony with the revelation given to John (the sixth seal).

If the visible Christ were not descending in the clouds at the opening of the sixth seal, then why would those left on Earth say, “hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb�

Whose face are they looking at when the sixth seal opens?

Why shouldn’t we as the body of Christ refer to the revelation already given to John and Paul?

“[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.â€Â

“Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.â€Â

To conclude, our Lord gave us divine authority to mark his descent to specific solar and lunar signs, and with this authority we as his church can confidently look to the Book of Revelation, and mark our own future salvation through the help of Peter and Paul.

I invite your thoughts on this…

God bless.

revel

 

[Vic C.]

In other words, if our Lord gave us divine authority (on Pentecost) to proclaim to his church we shall be saved when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation andâ€â€with absolute, divine confidenceâ€â€mark the descent of Christ to the same solar and lunar signs (the sixth seal)?

I am in complete agreement with you. I see the sixth seal as the 'time' when the harpazio occurs. We differ so far as to where in Daniel's 70th. week this sixth seal event takes place. I just don't see it as the beginning of the week. There is no Biblical evidence indicating that the Great Tribulation or God's Wrath, or both make up the entire week, or that the GT and the Wrath are one in the same.

Blessing to you though, for putting so much effort into your eschatological beliefs.

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

Honestly, it is a blessing to see that we are on the same page regarding our future salvation... marked at the sixth seal. Also, thank you for your blessing...

Allow me to begin on our common ground: the sixth seal. I would like to run a few Scriptures by you…

This is what I find interesting: After the sixth seal opens, both “great tribulation†and “wrath†are spoken of by John.

Why is this?

Is it possible that they are both spoken of in the same seal because the sixth seal represents the divine threshold for the entire population on the planet?


THE SIXTH SEAL: GREAT TRIBULATION

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14 kjv)

We as the church are gathered out of “great tribulationâ€Ââ€â€not “wrath.â€Â

What is the nature of this great tribulation?

This is where I am coming from: Shouldn’t we allow Christ’s revelation about the first four seals to guide us in our understanding of this great tribulation found in the sixth seal?

In other words, the origin of this great tribulation is explained by Christ in the same book: Revelation.

In essence, reading Revelation in chronological order allows us to see the cause behind the effect... the chain of events.

After the sixth seal opens, then comes the “wrath.â€Â

Is there “great tribulation†in “wrathâ€Â? Yes. This is the time prophesied by Christ in Holy Land: “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.†(Matt. 24:21, 22)

It is the “wrath†that makes this span of time “unequaled from the beginning of the world until now.â€Â

We who embrace Jesus as the Messiah (the church) will face “great tribulation,†but we will not face “wrathâ€Ââ€â€because we are “saved†from it by being gathered into Heaven.

Those who reject Jesus as the Messiah will face “wrathâ€Ââ€â€because they will remain on the Earth.


THE SIXTH SEAL: WRATH

For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand? (Rev. 6:17)

According to this revelation, wrath is announced at the sixth seal (and actually commences with the seventh seal).

Christ’s revelation to Paul spoke of the same “wrath.â€Â

[A]nd to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the deadâ€â€Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thess. 1:10)

Reading Revelation in chronological order allows us to understand the fullness of what Paul meant: we are saved from wrath because we are transformed and transported off the planet before the wrath actually begins.

We also know that seven years is marked after the announcement of the wrath: (Rev. 11:3; 13:5, 11). Of course, this is the scriptural justification (I see) to mark the seven-years of wrath that affects those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

Your thoughts…

God bless.

revel

 

[Vic C.]

Please don't take offense, but you are mixing up the sequence of events. The Great Trib and the Wrath are not the same. The great Trib comes first, aprox. midpoint in the seventh week. Revelation 6:9 Revelation 12:6-17

The Wrath starts here, just after the sixth seal events take place and after the seventh seal interlude. Revelation 6:17

Remember the sign Jesus gave in Matthew?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Now watch this:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;...

... Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus said this would occur "Immediately after the tribulation..." This is clearly a sign of the impending Wrath of God. Now, how can the Wrath and the Great Trib be one in the same when Jesus is telling us the events that are about to transpire are "Immediately after the tribulation..."?

The war in Heaven, the three messengers and the two witnesses, along with this (below) all commence midway through the 70th. week.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

This event is not seven years, nor is it the start of the 70th. week, but is the start of the second half of the week. Jesus is telling us the Gospel will be preached to all nations when, not before, the Desolation occurs.

The events in Matthew 24:16-21 also occur right after the Desolation; including this:

21a-For then shall be great tribulation,...

Thinking this is in the first half of the week is an easy mistake to make if you don't consider that parts of Rev. 11 on through 15 are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation.

Maybe this link will help understand better the sequence of events in Revelation. Please take the time to read through it. I think he is right and there are many others who feel the same.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html


Hopfully this chart will help in understanding "my" timing of events.

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

Firstly, let me say I am blessed to be interacting with you on this subject of “the day of the Lord.†You conduct yourself in a Christ-like manner; you never felt the need to lower yourself by resorting to abusive behavior to get your point across. You are a wonderful example, living the love our Lord gave us… and commanded us to share.

I also wanted to thank you for the link you provided. I spent time reading through it…

On to our discussion…

Without question, there are numerous interpretations of Revelation…

There is, however, one unmistakable approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation: rely on the prophecies already spoken by the prophets and apostles, for they set the precedents that Christ expounded upon in Revelation. We as Christ’s church cannot afford to rely on any one man’s interpretation of what he “believes†Revelation is saying.

You stated in your last post, “that parts of Rev. 11… 15 are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation.â€Â

Vic: Think about what you were taught: certain numbered end-time events are “out of sequence with the whole of Revelation.â€Â…

How can any theologian, minister, or Christian successfully challenge the divine authority of the numbered chronology and sequential order of end-time events marked by Christ in Revelation?

How is it possible that the mind of man could conclude that numbered, end-time events “are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation�

Central to this misunderstanding is the belief that Christ’s revelation to Matthew (24) speaks of the same event as Christ’s revelation to Peter (Acts 2) and John (Rev. 6)…

The collective voice of Christ, Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, Joel, Peter, and John reveals this: Christ’s revelation to Matthew (24) speaks of salvation exclusive to Israel (the seventh seal), and Christ’s revelation to Peter and John speaks of salvation exclusive to the church (the sixth seal).

THE CELESTIAL SIGNS: MATTHEW, PETER, JOHN, ISAIAH, AND JOEL

The celestial signs that mark Christ’s arrival for the church are similar to the signs that mark Christ’s arrival for Israelâ€â€but they are not identical.

We can see these two, separate prophecies by looking at one prophet: Joel.

SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO THE CHURCH

And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Joel 2:28-32)

SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL

For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel. Then you will know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her. (Joel 3:14-17)

What is a primary difference between the celestial signs that mark Christ’s arrival for the church and Israel?

The moon.

When Christ arrives in the clouds for the church (at the sixth seal), the moon will turn “blood red.†The blood-red moon is an omen that wrath is about to befall the Earth.

When Christ arrives with his warriors to rescue Israel (the seventh seal), the “moon will be darkened.â€Â

“Blood red†means “blood red.â€Â

“Darkened†means “darkened.â€Â

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO MATTHEW

Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. (Matt. 24:29)

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO JOHN

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth. (Rev. 6:12, 13)

To believe that Christ’s revelation to Matthew… is the same prophecy as Christ’s revelation to John… is to take a false conclusion into the Book of Revelation, and thereby, produce a fundamentally flawed interpretation of Christ’s numbered chronology in Revelation.

This is our Lord speaking to us:

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. (Rev. 22:18, 19)

We as Christ’s church are not empowered to suggest that certain, numbered end-time events are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation.

The numbered chronology of end-time events found in Revelation shall come to pass in sequential orderâ€â€exactly as given by Christ.

The seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven bowls, and the three woes shall unfold in the exact order as given by Christ.

“The day of the Lord†shall begin exactly where Peter (Acts 2) and John (Rev. 6) marked it: following the signs of the sixth sealâ€â€not the first seal. “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord†(Acts 2:20).

Vic: The belief that certain, numbered end-time events are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation is the product of man’s imagination, not divine revelation.

To expound upon the collective voice of the prophets and apostles and how their words enable us to accurately interpret Revelation, I have prepared the following:

SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO THE CHURCH
SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL
THE HORSEMEN OF REVELATION
WRATH: THE THREE WOES

I invite you to scrutinize these four posts that follow.

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PETER, PAUL, AND JOHN: SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO THE CHURCH

Christ’s own apostles, in this case Peter and Paul, as well as the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, can help us to understand Revelation. This divine harmony of divine revelation cannot be broken.

To everyone in the body of Christ: I’d first like to establish some common ground with you…

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PETER

On Pentecost, Peter spoke forth a prophecy about those “who call on the name of the Lord,†and made obvious reference to the descent of the Holy Spirit. . .

Who are those filled with the Holy Spirit?

Us. The church.

Peter is prophesying of those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah. In essence, Peter spoke forth a prophecy about what shall come to pass for those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah. Peter’s prophecy had nothing to do with those who reject Jesus as the Messiah.

We are in the body of Christ; we are filled with the Holy Spirit; we embrace Jesus as the Messiah; we call on the name of the Lord, and we shall be “saved†when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red. Christ’s revelation on Pentecost speaks of salvation exclusive to the church.

What is the importance of Christ’s revelation on Pentecost?

How else can we look at Christ’s revelation to Paul and John, but that it expounds upon what we first heard by way of Peter?

Every prophecy about the salvation of the church can only build upon the prophecy our Lord gave us on the first day of the church.

If our Lord gave revelation on Pentecost that the church will “saved,†and that it will come to pass in conjunction with specific celestial signs, then shouldn’t we allow this revelation to help us understand all prophecies pertaining to the salvation of the churchâ€â€including those found in Revelation?

Take a look at the next post on this subject of Christ’s descent for the church. It is revelation given to Paul. Like Peter, Paul can help us to understand Revelation.

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PAUL

Without question, Paul’s prophecy in Thessalonians (1 Thess. 4:16, 17) is central to our understanding of Christ’s descent in the clouds, but it is also true that Christ’s revelation given to the Corinthians added additional information regarding this descentâ€â€which includes unmistakable revelation that the glory of our Lord will be revealed when he descends in the clouds for us.

Paul opened his letter to the church speaking of the glorious hope of Christ’s arrival for the church:

I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every wayâ€â€in all your speaking and in all your knowledgeâ€â€because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed [Greek: Apokalupsis]. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:4-8)

We as Christ’s church await the arrival of our Lord to transform and transport us off the planet. It is “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.â€Â

Apokalupsis means, “appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.†This will be the celestial reality for the world to see: Christ’s glory will be revealed when he descends in the clouds to transform the church.

Ironic… The very apostle our own church typically looks to, Paul, to “prove†the “signless†theory states the complete opposite. The glory of Christ being revealed in the clouds is anything but “signless.â€Â

Paul closed the same letter by expounding upon this hope of Christ’s arrival for the church:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Cor. 15:20-23)

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedâ€â€in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.†(1 Cor. 15:51-54)

When Paul prophesied, “Death has been swallowed up in victory,†he quoted Isaiah:
“He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces†(Isa. 25:8 kjv)

From Peter, Paul, and Isaiah, we know that the future salvation of the church includes the following:

Celestial signs: The sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red.
Apokalupsis: Christ’s glory will be seen in the clouds.
Transformation: The entire church, in the grave and alive, will be transformed.
Transported: The church will ascend off the planet into the clouds/sky to be with Christ.
Victory: “Death has been swallowed up in victory,†and “the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces.â€Â

These pieces of the salvation picture are unchangeable and irrefutable.

This is the knowledge we take into the Book of Revelation to understand more of what our Lord revealed about our future salvation.

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO JOHN

What is the Book of Revelation about?

Christ told us… when he told John: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter†(Rev. 1:19 kjv).

What things shall be hereafter?

If the future salvation of the church is one thing that shall be hereafter, then shouldn’t we expect to find the salvation of the church in Revelation?

Why would Christ leave it out?

If he did, Christ would be contradicting himselfâ€â€which is impossible.

Any thought that the future salvation of the church is not to be found in Revelation is to contradict Christ.

If we are to believe Christ, then it is not a matter of if the salvation of the church is in Revelation, but where.

If our Lord gave us divine authority to proclaim to his church we shall be saved when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation andâ€â€with absolute, divine confidenceâ€â€mark the salvation of the church to the same solar and lunar signs?

If our Lord gave us the divine authority to proclaim to his church that we will see the glory of our Lord when he descends in the clouds for us, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation andâ€â€with absolute, divine confidenceâ€â€mark the salvation of the church to the same glory revealed?

In other words, why shouldn’t we allow Peter and Paul to help us identify where John prophesied of the future salvation of the church?

Where did Christ reveal that the same celestial signs would appear? The sixth seal: “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood†(Rev. 6:12 kjv).

Did Christ reveal that his glory would be seen? Yes: “[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him†(Rev. 1:7).

Where did Christ reveal that his glory would be seen? The sixth seal: “[H]ide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb†(Rev. 6:16 kjv).

Are we as Christ’s church supposed to believe that it is just a coincidence that Peter and John prophesied of the same celestial signs, and it is just a coincidence that Paul and John prophesied that the glory of Christ shall be revealed, and it is just a coincidence that the signs and the glory of Christ are both made known when the sixth seal opens?

If we are to believe Christ’s revelation to Peter and Paul, then we as Christ’s church have irrefutable, divine authority to mark the future salvation of the church at the sixth seal.

What will happen after the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red? “The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up.†(Rev. 6:14)

What’s in the sky? Paul told us: the church is gathered in the clouds.

Where do we go from there? Heaven. “The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up.â€Â

Of the three visions given by Christ, which group is in Heaven? The group with their robes washed white.

What shall this group proclaim?

SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!! (REV. 7:10)

This group is proclaiming the source of their salvation: God and the Lamb.

How did this salvation happen?

These… have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 6:14 kjv)

How many works of man are in the blood of the Lamb?

There are no works of man in the blood of the Lamb. The blood of the Lamb is the work of Christâ€â€not man. Our decision to make Jesus our Lord is how we cleanse our robes with the blood of the Lamb.

But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:11 kjv)

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mark 10:45 kjv)

The ransom is the blood of Christ. It’s that blood, the ransom, which cleanses our robes. It is salvation unto the Lamb.

Who can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb?

All nations…

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. (Rev. 7:9 kjv)

Who are these people in white robes standing in front of? The Lamb.

After the church is gathered in the clouds, who will the church will ever be with? The Lamb.

When the church is transformed, what prophecy will come to pass? “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces†(Isa. 25:8 kjv).

What did Christ reveal about those in white robes? “For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes†(Rev. 7:17 kjv).

“God shall wipe away all tears†from the eyes of those who shall witness “death swallowed up in victory.†Who will witness death swallowed up in victory? The church.

Even with all these references given to us by Christ, our Lord was not finished revealing to us that this vision applies to us.

Take a look at the two questions that are asked:

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:3, 14 kjv)

Why would Christ reveal to us that these questions shall be asked?

“What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?â€Â

In other words, this group of people in white robes is a MYSTERY!!

How is it possible that we as Christ’s church could have overlooked this?

The CHURCH is the MYSTERY!!

Why is this mysterious group of people present in Heaven?

The blood of the Lamb!!

This is us… those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah… transformed immortal… This is our cry of salvation in Heaven when we stand before our Lord:

SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL: MATTHEW, DANIEL, ISAIAH, AND MOSES

The day of the Lord refers not only to Christ’s arrival for the church but also Christ’s arrival for Israel. Throughout the Old Testament, the prophets foretold what would become of Israel. Elements of these prophecies can be found in the very words of Christ in Matthew 24.

To set the stage to view Christ’s prophecy in the Gospel of Matthew, this text moves back to Old Testament times. What follows are prophecies given by Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses, respectively. These prophets foretold of the following: the Antichrist, the time of wrath, the signs that mark Christ’s return to the Holy Land, and the gathering of the remnant of Israel.

What Christ referenced during his ministry is capitalized.

DANIEL:
He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven†[seven years]. In the middle of the “seven†he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Antichrist]. (Dan. 9:27)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [Daniel’s people: Israel]: AND THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE [ISRAEL] SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan. 12:1 KJV)

ISAIAH:
FOR THE STARS OF HEAVEN AND THE CONSTELLATIONS THEREOF SHALL NOT GIVE THEIR LIGHT: THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED IN HIS GOING FORTH, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. THEREFORE I WILL SHAKE THE HEAVENS, AND THE EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isa. 13:10–13 KJV)

In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be GATHERED up one by one. And in that day A GREAT TRUMPET will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem. (Isa. 27:12, 13)

MOSES:
That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and GATHER THEE FROM ALL THE NATIONS, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. IF ANY OF THINE BE DRIVEN OUT UNTO THE OUTMOST PARTS OF HEAVEN, FROM THENCE WILL THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it. (Deut. 30:3–5 KJV)

During his ministry, Christ also prophesied of what would become of Israel. In a single prophecy about his second coming to Israel, the Son of God spoke forth the collective voice of the three Old Testament prophets referenced above.

Christ prophesied of the Antichrist, the time of wrath, the signs that would mark his return to the Holy Land, and the gathering of the remnant of Israel. He introduced his prophecy by referring to Daniel and the final years of prophecy that lead up to the Apocalypse. What Christ referenced from the Old Testament is capitalized.

MATTHEW:
When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET [THE GREAT TRUMPET4], and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS [OF THE EARTH], FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (Matt. 24:21–31 KJV)

Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses testify that this prophecy speaks of gathering Israelâ€â€not the church. As revealed by Christ, this salvation of Israel takes place after the “tribulation of those days†of the Antichristâ€â€not before. This is the time of the seventh seal, not the sixth.

Note: “A great sound of a trumpet†is a figure of speech known as Hendiadys, where it is “not two things, but one,†(E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible [Grand Rapids, Mich.: Kregel Publications, 1990], 1366. In essence, Christ referred to what Isaiah referred to: the great trumpet.

THE HARMONY BETWEEN THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES

Joel, Peter, and John prophesied of the moon turning blood red when the church is saved, and Isaiah, Joel, and Matthew prophesied of the moon turning dark when Israel is savedâ€â€and no one in Bible disagrees with them.

If Christ’s revelation to Peter and John speaks of salvation that occurs before the time of wrath, and Christ’s revelation to Matthew (24) speaks of salvation after the time of wrath, then how can Matthew be speaking of the same salvation as Peter and John?

How can Christ’s revelation to Matthew contradict Peter and John?

It can’t. And it doesn’t. Matthew, Peter and John are in harmony with one another. But how?

Matthew’s prophecy applies to that section of Joel’s prophecy that Peter did not quote: “But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.†Matthew’s prophecy speaks of salvation exclusive Israel. This is how Matthew, Peter and John are in harmony: they are all speaking of “the day of the Lord†but they are referring to different prophecies: the dual prophecy within “the day of the Lord.â€Â

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

THE HORSEMEN OF REVELATION

The Four Horsemenâ€â€released with the opening of the first four sealsâ€â€precede the descent of Christ in the clouds to save the church (the sixth seal).

Who are Four Horsemen?

Just as the Book of Revelation expounds upon the relative nature of what the prophets and apostles prophesied about “the day of the Lord,†the prophets and apostles help us to understand the prophecies found in Revelation. In the case of this post, it is the prophet Zechariah who enables us to make a definitive statement about the Four Horsemenâ€â€and about the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

Who is the Fifth Horseman? Christ.

INTRODUCTION

Just as John the Baptist was of divine origin sent to fulfill a divine purpose before the first coming of Christ to Israel…

And just as the two witnesses are of divine origin sent to fulfill a divine purpose before the second coming of Christ to Israel…

The Four Horsemen are of divine origin sent to fulfill a divine purpose before the arrival of Christ to save the church.

THE FIRST COMING OF THE MESSIAH: JOHN THE BAPTIST

God sent John the Baptist to precede the Messiah’s first coming to Israel. What was his role in preparing the way for the Messiah?

A voice of one [John] calling in the desert, “Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.†(Matt. 3:3)

I [John] baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt. 3:11)

I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.†(John 1:31)

Just as God prepared the world for the first coming of the Messiah to Israel, God shall prepare the world for the second coming of the Messiah to Israel. Different times demand different roles for those sent by God.

Whereas divine blessing was upon the Earth via John the Baptist to prepare the way for the salvation of all bloodlines, divine judgment shall be upon the Earth via the two witnesses and the Four Horsemen to prepare the way for the salvation of Israel and the salvation of the church, respectively.

THE TWO WITNESSES

God shall send two witnesses to precede the Messiah’s second coming to Israel. What is their role in preparing the way for the Messiah?

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (Rev. 11:3-6 kjv)

The two witnesses shall speak the Word of God and bring God’s righteous judgment upon the unrighteous.

Who are the two witnesses?

God told us, through an angel who spoke to Zechariah:

And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. . . . Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. (Zech. 4:1-3, 11-14 kjv)

The two witnesses “are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.â€Â

THE FOUR HORSEMEN

The vision that follows sets the stage for those things that must be hereafter; it is a vision that immediately precedes the release of the Four Horsemen.

And I [John] saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. (Rev. 5:1-5 kjv)

Christ’s vision to John is drawing our attention to where? Heaven.
It is the King of Kings who opens the seals in Heaven, and with the opening of the first four seals, the Four Horsemen are released.

If the Four Horsemen are released prior to the salvation of the church (the sixth seal), then are they released during the time of wrath, or grace? Grace.

Wrath doesn’t begin until after the church is gathered. Therefore, the Four Horsemen shall fulfill their role… simultaneous to us fulfilling our individual roles as members of the body of Christ… during the age of grace.

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts [living creatures] saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast [living creature] say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: to and power was given him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast [living creature] say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast [living creature] say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell [Greek: Hades: the grave] followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (Rev. 6:1-8 kjv)

Who are the Four Horsemen?

There is no need to project our imagination onto the Scriptures and come up with an interpretation based on our own modern times and culture, for God already gave us the correct answer 2500 years ago by way of the same prophet who spoke to us about the “two anointed onesâ€Â: Zechariah.

And I [Zechariah] turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses. Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country. And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth. Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country. (Zech. 6:1-8)

Who are the Four Horsemen? “The four spirits of the heavens.â€Â

The parallels between the two witnesses and the Four Horsemen are unmistakable: they bring righteous judgment to the Earth.

Are we as Christ’s church supposed to believe that it is just a coincidence that Zechariah and John both saw a vision of the “two olive trees†(the “two anointed onesâ€Â/the “two witnessesâ€Â), and that it is just a coincidence that the same prophet, Zechariah, saw a vision of “the four spirits of the heavens†that appeared as four separate chariots with horses and John saw a vision of four separate horses?

What are we to learn from the visions given to Zechariah and John?

The angel said to Zechariah, “Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.†The word “quieted†means to “give comfort†and “(cause to…) rest.â€Â

If the horsemen bring comfort to an angel of God, and bring judgment to the unrighteous, then it is evident that the horsemen bring comfort to the righteous and discomfort to the unrighteous.

THE FIFTH HORSEMAN: CHRIST: THE SECOND COMING TO ISRAEL

The divine judgment brought to Earth by the Four Horsemen foreshadows the divine judgment brought to Earth by the Fifth Horseman: Christ.

I [John] saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. [Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints (Rev. 19:8).] Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.†He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, “so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.â€Â
Then I saw the beast [the Antichrist] and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Rev. 19:11–21)

See, the Lord is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. (Isa. 66:15)

This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. (2 Thess. 1:7-10)

Whereas the Four Horsemen mark the beginning of the end of all that has been prophesied about the church and Israel, the Messiah riding on his white horse will descend to Earth along with us, the church, following on white horses, and Christ will fulfill the promises found in the covenant with Israelâ€â€seven years after the seventh seal opens.

It is the fulfillment of Gabriel’s revelation to Daniel, when the Antichrist shall be destroyed:

He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven†[seven years]. In the middle of the “seven†he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Antichrist]. (Dan. 9:27)

The “end that is decreed†shall be “poured out†on the Antichrist at the end of the seven-year prophecyâ€â€which commences exactly where Christ marked it: “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (3.5 years).†In the middle of this seven-year prophecy, the Antichrist will put an end to sacrifice and offering and will kill the prophets, and then the Antichrist shall reign for 3.5 years after committing murderâ€â€only to see his reign end by way of the Fifth Horseman: Christ.

This is “the day he [Christ] comes to be glorified in his holy peopleâ€Ââ€â€not before, not Revelation 11. Christ’s second coming to Israel shall come to pass in the manner already described throughout the entire Bibleâ€â€after the seven-year prophecy and with his armies. This is when the sun and moon will be darkened.

[T]he sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [the great trumpet], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds [of the Earth], from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:29–31 kjv)

THE HARMONY BETWEEN THE PROPHET DANIEL AND THE APOSTLE JOHN

Christ’s final revelation to John expounds upon the two prophecies of salvation: salvation exclusive to the church is marked at the sixth seal, and salvation exclusive to Israel is marked seven years later at chapter 19â€â€when Christ descends from Heaven with us, the saints.

John’s seven-year prophecy that precedes Israel’s salvation has yet to be fulfilled.
Daniel’s seven-year prophecy that precedes Israel’s salvation has yet to be fulfilled.

Are we as Christ’s church supposed to believe that it is just a coincidence that Christ referenced Daniel in Matthew (24) and that Christ spoke of a seven-year prophecy in Revelation, and that it is just a coincidence that Daniel’s seven-year prophecy speaks of events that shall lead up to Israel’s salvation and the destruction of the Antichrist, and John’s seven-year prophecy speaks of events that shall lead up to Israel’s salvation and the destruction of the Antichrist?

Why else would Christ mark a seven-year prophecy between the salvation of the church and the salvation of Israel, unless there is a seven-year prophecy between the salvation of the church (the sixth seal) and the salvation of Israel (chapter 19)?

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

WRATH: THE THREE WOES

Where does Christ mark the three “woes�

The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come. (Rev. 9:12)

The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. (Rev. 11:14)

But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! (Rev. 12:12)

Why else would Christ refer to three “woes†after the announcement of the wrath (Rev. 6:17), unless there are three “woes†in the wrath?

Why else would Christ number the woes unless he is revealing the order in which they shall occur?

If we read the context of the woes, we will see Daniel’s seventieth “seven†in the second and third woes.

Just as we as Christ’s church do not have the authority to divide the seven-year prophecy of Daniel, we do not have the authority to separate the numbered chronology of the “woes†spoken of by John. The woes shall unfold exactly as Christ revealed them: in sequential order during the time of the seventh seal.

God bless.

revel

 

[Vic C.]

The seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven bowls, and the three woes shall unfold the exact order as given by Christ.

I agree.

“The day of the Lord†shall begin exactly where Peter (Acts 2) and John (Rev. 6) marked it: following the signs of the sixth sealâ€â€not the first seal. “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord†(Acts 2:20).

Agree.

Vic: The belief that certain, numbered end-time events are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation is the product of man’s imagination, not divine revelation.

I disagree and will explain:

Where to you see the two witnesses occurring? How about the war in Heaven and the persecution of the remnant of the Woman's seed?

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Following so far? 8-)

Now lets look at Daniel:

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Here we see Daniel has added 30 plus 45 days to the prophecy of Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6.

Lets do the math:
1,335 days - 30 - 45 = 1,260 days, which equals thousand two hundred and threescore days.

All the events described above take place around the start of the second half of the 70th. week, but...

We see that John writes about them after he writes about the seals and trumpets. He doesn't even get to the bowls (vials) until Revelation 15:7. Unless the events in chs. 11 and 12-15 occur after the trumpets (which we know they don't) there is only possibility.

s a matter of fact, we see the remnant of the Woman's seed being persecuted in the events starting here;

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Also, the Wrath begins here:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We believe this to be not in the first half, but in the second half. So, how can John be telling us about events in the second half here (Rev. 6:7-9) go on to the trumpets, then describe the very start of the second half in ch.11 and 12 (the Tribulation) if at least some of Revelation breaks continuity?

I declare by Scripture that events from to ch. 11 to the end of ch. 14 start by backpedal to the beginning of the second half of the 70th. week.

As has been described, Revelation 11:1-19 was a review of the second half (42 months or 1,260 days) of the 70th Week. Likewise, Revelation 12:6–14:20 is yet another chronological and sequential review of the second half (1,260 days) of the 70th Week.

Courtesy of Ted Montgomery http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... ndex2.html

Also see:

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/rev_1.html

The exact order of events in Revelation has been a much debated topic in Bible prophecy. Some believe Revelation is sequential, others believe it contains several visions that repeat and recap. This question is critical to our overall eschatology.

Those who promote the sequential theory believe this is the most natural way to understand Revelation. But, though they claim to interpret sequentially, they rarely do. While they place the seals, trumpets, and vials, in sequence, they usually recognize some recapitulation. This is especially apparent in chapters 12 through 14. In practice, a purely sequential understanding will not fit with any of the rapture views. This is demonstrated by adding up all the time periods given in the book.

1. Jerusalem will be trodden under foot for 42 months. [Rev. 11:2]
2. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days. [Rev. 11:3]
3. Israel will be protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years. [Rev. 12:14]
4. Antichrist will continue 42 months. [Rev. 13:5]

This gives us a total of fourteen years. And, it does not take into account the time necessary for the seven seals, the first six trumpets, and all seven vials. Obviously, there is some recapitulation in Revelation. The two descriptions of the battle of Armageddon, [chapters 14 and 19], the twice mentioned destruction of Babylon, [14:8 and chapters 17&18], and the establishing of Christ's Kingdom twice, [11:15-18 & 20:1-4], give substantial evidence that Revelation is not entirely sequential. This should come as no surprise to us, however, since Revelation's sister book, Daniel, is not sequential either.

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic,

Thanks for your post...

Before I directly respond, let me say this:

There is a difference between the numbered chapters and numbered end-time events...

The numbered chapters do not reflect an unbroken chain of end-time events... Revelation 12 is an example of this.

The numbered end-time events do reflect the precise order that they shall unfold.

This is why I was careful to say "numbered end-time events" in my previous post.

We as Christ’s church are not empowered to suggest that certain, numbered end-time events are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation.

Vic: Let's focus on the second and third woes...

THE SECOND WOE

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

This is referring to the second woe, not the third... That is what Christ said:

The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. (Rev. 11:14)

THE THIRD WOE

If the second woe ended after the 3.5-year prophecy of the two witnesses, then the next 3.5 year prophecy marked by Christ refers to which woe? The next one... the third.

The beast [the Antichrist] was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5)

This is the same 3.5 years as described below:

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is referring to the third woe, not the second.

How can the prophecies of Rev. 12:6 and 13:5 be the same prophecy as Rev. 11:3? According to Christ, they are different woes.

The second woe shall come to pass after the fulfillment of the first woe and the third woe shall come to pass after the fulfillment of the second woe.

Do you agree with Christ's marking of numbered end-time events? The second woe speaks of the two witnesses... The third woe speaks of the Antichrist...

Before moving forward I'd like to know your thoughts on the content of the second and third woes... And do you believe that they shall come to pass as Christ marked them... one after the other... in sequential order...

In other words, the second and third woes are... 3.5 years for the two witnesses and then 3.5 years for the Antichrist and false prophet.... which is Daniel's final seven years of prophecy.

God bless

revel