The "Signless" Return: Dogma

[Vic C.]

Hello Vic,

Thanks for your post...

Hello and thanks.

Before I directly respond, let me say this:

There is a difference between the numbered chapters and numbered end-time events...

The numbered chapters do not reflect an unbroken chain of end-time events... Revelation 12 is an example of this.

The numbered end-time events do reflect the precise order that they shall unfold.

This is why I was careful to say "numbered end-time events" in my previous post.

I agree that the seven seals and the trumpets and bowls are sequential and not concurrent.

Vic: Let's focus on the second and third woes...

I see it this way:

the first woe

Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

It is right before the fifth trumpet; the very next verse.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Then we have the second woe:

Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Right after it is the sixth trumpet.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Here we find the third woe.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

And the seventh trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Now, if we both agree the events are sequential, the first bowl has to be next. Here is the "tricky" part. We need to go all the way to Revelation 16:2 to get to the first bowl (vial).

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Notice what just happened? We just skipped all of 12-14 (and 15) to get to the first bowl in the "sequence". The very verses I stated were out of sequence with the rest of Revelation. That portion of Revelation doesn't deal with seals, trumpets or bowls. When I get some time, I might post some Scripture from Revelation 12-15 and their (earlier) parallel verses.

You may say we have no right to declare the numbered events are out of sequence and I agree. The fact does remain that the portion of Revelation I keep pointing out is out of sequence. It is more of a synopsis of events occurring in the second half of the week.

All three woes occur douring the trumpets, the last three actually. These are just three events I see as being concurrent to other events in Revelation.

 

[Vic C.]

Here is some commentary that way shed some light on my position:

Chapter 12 is an inset chapter, injected into the main story-thread. Just as any writer will stop his narrative at a certain point, to go back and sketch a different scene involving different characters and events, bringing them up to, and connecting them with his story-thread at that juncture,...

... The 13th chapter is another inset, picturing the symbolic "beast" and the second two-horned "beast." Chapter 14 shows the three angel Messages, proclaiming the fall, or DOOM, of "Babylon" thru the seven last Plagues; and the warning against the MARK OF THE BEAST, which those in "Babylon" are deceived into having.

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/revelkey.html

 

[Revel]

Hello Vic:

We agree that the numbered, end-time events shall come to pass in the exact order as given by Christ. This includes all numbered, end-time events: the seals, the trumpets, the woes, and the bowls.

We also agree that the three woes correspond to the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpetsâ€â€exactly as Christ revealed:

As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"

Three woes. Three trumpet blasts. Three angels.

How can any theologian be empowered to pick and choose the events that correspond to the woes?

Shouldn’t we just take Christ’s word for it?

Vic: I know where you are coming from: You believe that the 3.5 years of the two witnesses is the same prophecyâ€â€the same time frameâ€â€as the 3.5 years that the woman (Israel) is persecuted. You also believe that John is only expounding upon the second half of the seventieth “seven†in Revelation (during the wrath)â€â€not the whole seven years.

In order to address your position, I have three posts that I would like you to scrutinize:

THE THREE WOES
THE ANGEL GABRIEL AND CHRIST
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE FOUR HORSEMEN: THE BIRTH PAINS


THE THREE WOES

THE FIRST WOE: THE FIFTH TRUMPET

The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. THEY HAD TAILS AND STINGS LIKE SCORPIONS, AND IN THEIR TAILS THEY HAD POWER TO TORMENT PEOPLE FOR FIVE MONTHS. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.
THE FIRST WOE IS PAST; TWO OTHER WOES ARE YET TO COME. (REV. 8:13; 9:1-12)

“The first woe is past†exactly where Christ marked it…

What are the events of the first woe?

Christ told us: the events of the first woe begin after the fifth trumpet sounds and end where Christ said, “the first woe is past.â€Â

THE SECOND WOE: THE SIXTH TRUMPET

The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down."
Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: "Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land."
So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, "Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey."I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. Then I was told, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings."
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. AND I WILL GIVE POWER TO MY TWO WITNESSES, AND THEY WILL PROPHESY FOR 1,260 DAYS, CLOTHED IN SACKCLOTH." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
THE SECOND WOE HAS PASSED; THE THIRD WOE IS COMING SOON. (Rev. 9:13-21; 10:1-11; 11:1-14)

“The second woe has passed†exactly where Christ marked it…

What are the events of the second woe?

Christ told us: the events of the second woe begin after the sixth trumpet sounds and end where Christ said, “the second woe has past.â€Â

Why else would Christ include the two witnesses in the second woe, unless they were a part of the second woe?
Why else would Christ include the earthquake in the second woe, unless it was a part of the second woe?
The two witnesses (and their 3.5 year testimony) and the earthquake are all a part of the sixth trumpet events.

To claim that the second woe does not include the two witnesses and the earthquake is to replace divine authority with man’s imagination.

“THE SECOND WOE HAS PASSED; THE THIRD WOE IS COMING SOON.â€Â

The second woe is fulfilled after the earthquakeâ€â€not before.
After the 3.5-year testimony of the two witnesses and the earthquake, the second woe comes to an endâ€â€not before.

The seventh trumpet sounds after these eventsâ€â€not before.

THE THIRD WOE: THE SEVENTH TRUMPET

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet (Rev. 11:15).

But WOE [the third woe] to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
When the dragon [not the Four Horsemen] saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The WOMAN WAS GIVEN THE TWO WINGS OF A GREAT EAGLE, SO THAT SHE [ISRAEL] MIGHT FLY TO THE PLACE PREPARED FOR HER IN THE DESERT, WHERE SHE WOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF FOR A TIME, TIMES AND HALF A TIME [3.5 YEARS], out of the serpent's reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
THE BEAST WAS GIVEN A MOUTH TO UTTER PROUD WORDS AND BLASPHEMIES AND TO EXERCISE HIS AUTHORITY FOR FORTY-TWO MONTHS. (Rev. 12:12-17; 13:1-5)

The 3.5 years Satan pursues Israel is expounded upon: it is the time of the Antichrist and his 3.5-year reign.

How can the 3.5 years of the two witnesses on Earth be the same as the 3.5 years of the Antichrist? They are different woes.

What is the time marked by Christ with the second and third woes?

The second woe… 3.5 years… plus the third woe… 3.5 years… equals 7 years.

Do you expect the body of Christ to overlook the fact that Christ clearly marked 3.5 years in the second woe and 3.5 years in the third woe?

Do you honestly expect us in the body of Christ to believe 3.5 years plus 3.5 years equals 3.5 years?

How will you explain your position when you stand before your Lord and Savior?

Christ clearly stated the woes do not overlap; they are not concurrent.

How can any theologian have the authority to jump over chapters 12 and 13 and declare they have nothing to do with the third woe? Not only do the events follow the seventh trumpet, Christ introduces the events by referring to the woe: “But WOE [the third woe] to the earth and the sea.ââ‚Â

How can any theologian, any minister, any denomination, any Christian successfully overturn or explain away the events of the woes and the time marked by Christ within the woes?

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

Vic,

In an earlier post, you said you didn’t understand the seven-year prophecy.

This seven-year prophecy is a seven-year covenant that Israel will sign with the Antichrist. It will not only bring peace to the Middle East, it will allow Israel to rebuild its temple and offer sacrifice. This is the agreement that the Antichrist will break after 3.5 years.

For the first 3.5 years, the followers of Moses will rebuild their temple and offer sacrifice in Jerusalem. For the next 3.5 years, they will flee from Jerusalem into mountains where God will protect his faithful remnant from the Antichrist.

THE ANGEL GABRIEL AND CHRIST

Look at the revelation Christ gave to John regarding what will take place during the time of the second woe: “I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, ‘Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there’†(Rev. 11:1).

Why did Christ reveal this to us?
Why is Christ talking about the temple now?

This is when Israel will sign the seven-year peace agreement with the Antichrist, and Israel will be given the green light to rebuild its temple. That’s why the angel told John to measure the temple…

If, as you claim, this entire section deals strictly with the second 3.5 years, how can Israel rebuild the temple, offer sacrifices, and flee Jerusalem all at the same time?

Allow yourself to see the progression of thought in the revelation given to us by the angel Gabriel and Christ.

GABRIEL
After the sixty-two `sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.[This is when he prophetic clock stopped for Israel]. The people [the Romans] of the ruler [the Antichrist] who will come will destroy the city[Jerusalem] and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many [Israelites] for one `seven' [seven years]. [THE SECOND WOE NOW BEGINS.] [Once the agreement is signed, the prophetic clock for Israel will start again. With the agreement signed, the two witnesses, who are a part of the second woe, will begin their mission, and the rebuilding of the temple will commence. This will continue for 3.5 yearsâ€â€the time marked by Christ.] [THE THIRD WOE NOW BEGINS.] In the middle of the `seven' he [the Antichrist] will put an end to sacrifice and offering [the sacrifices offered by the Israelites in their new temple will be ended]. And on a wing of the temple [which was being built during the first 3.5 years] HE [THE ANTICHRIST] WILL SET UP AN ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION [THE IMAGE IN HONOR OF THE BEAST], until THE END that is decreed is poured out [bowl judgments] on him [the Antichrist]. (Dan. 9:26, 27)

This seven-year prophecy precedes the second coming of Christ to Israel.

CHRIST’S REVELATION: THE ABOMINATION
Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. HE ORDERED THEM TO SET UP AN IMAGE IN HONOR OF THE BEAST WHO WAS WOUNDED BY THE SWORD AND YET LIVED. HE WAS GIVEN POWER TO GIVE BREATH TO THE IMAGE OF THE FIRST BEAST, SO THAT IT COULD SPEAK AND CAUSE ALL WHO REFUSED TO WORSHIP THE IMAGE TO BE KILLED. (Rev. 13:11-15)

Where does this image get “set up�

The temple.

Vic: You are looking at the fulfillment of all that has been prophesied about Israel. Christ is talking about the temple in Jerusalem.

Where does the Antichrist rule?

The Temple.

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thess. 2:4)

How can the Antichrist rule from the temple if there is no temple to rule from?

The Antichrist will seize control of, and rule from, the temple that Israel was allowed to rebuild.

While in the Holy Land, Christ prophesied of the same end-time prophecy.

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO MATTHEW
And this gospel of the kingdom will be PREACHED [which includes the 3.5 years of PREACHING BY THE TWO WITNESSES] in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then THE END [which includes the bowl judgments poured out on the Antichrist] will come. . .

THE THIRD WOE: 3.5 YEARS
So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Danielâ€â€let the reader understandâ€â€then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. [This is when God will protect the “woman†(Israel) for 3.5 years.] How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. (Matt. 24:14-21)

How can Israel rebuild the temple, offer sacrifices, and flee Jerusalem all at the same time?

Is this what you want the body of Christ to believe?

Do you want us to overlook the fact that the angel told John to measure the templeâ€â€and that it occurs during the second woe?

Do you expect us in Christ’s church to believe that it is just a coincidence that Christ referenced Daniel in Matthew (24) and that Christ spoke of a seven-year prophecy in Revelation, and that it is just a coincidence that Daniel’s seven-year prophecy speaks of events that shall lead up to Israel’s salvation and the destruction of the Antichrist, and John’s seven-year prophecy speaks of events that shall lead up to Israel’s salvation and the destruction of the Antichrist?

The measuring and rebuilding of the temple, and the offering of sacrifice in Jerusalem is the first 3.5-years of the seven-year prophecy. Fleeing the temple and Jerusalem is the second 3.5-years of the seven-year prophecy.

Gabriel’s prophecy is a unified, seven-year prophecy that has two distinct elements: the two prophets of God (with other judgments) and the two prophets of Satan (with the bowl judgments).

How can any theologian be empowered to decide Christ’s revelation in Revelation would address only half of the prophecy (during the wrath)?

THE END OF THE SEVENTIETH “SEVENâ€Â
Immediately after the distress of those days “`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.â€Â
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
(Matt. 24:29-31)

Vic… Why not give heed to the divine harmony of divine revelation given to us by Christ, Gabriel, Daniel, Paul, John, and Matthew?

Christ referenced Daniel in Matthew…
Daniel spoke of a seven-year prophecy…
John spoke of a seven-year prophecy in Revelation…

Why?

Because there is a seven-year prophecy pertaining to Israel that has yet to be fulfilled. It will come to pass exactly where Christ marked it: after the church is saved, during the seven-year time frame of the second and third woes.

THE SEVEN-YEAR PROPHECY

THE FIRST 3.5 YEARS: THE SECOND WOE: the seven-year agreement is signed: “He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven†[seven years].†The temple rebuilding commences. The two witnesses sent by God prophesy and smite the planet.

AT THE MID-POINT: “In the middle of the ‘seven’ he [the Antichrist] will put an end to sacrifice and offering.†The two witnesses will be killed. The agreement is broken.

THE SECOND 3.5 YEARS: THE THIRD WOE: Satan pursues Israel, the woman is protected, the Israelites flee to the mountains, the bowls are poured out, the Antichrist shall rule from the temple.

Vic: I am not telling you anything new…

What is the Book of Revelation about?

Christ told us… when he told John: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter†(Rev. 1:19 kjv).

What things shall be hereafter?

Daniel’s prophecy is included.

Do you want the body of Christ to believe that Daniel’s unified, seven-year prophecy is an exception?

How can anyone in the body of Christâ€â€in clear conscience before Heavenâ€â€deny the words of Christ regarding the content of the woes, the time marked by Christ within the woes, the sequential nature of the three woes, and the harmony between Christ and Daniel?

Look at the big picture of what you were taught:

You believed that Christ’s revelation to Matthew (24) is the same revelation Christ gave to Peter (Acts 2) and John (Rev. 6).

You believ that the 3.5 years of the two witnesses is the same prophecyâ€â€the same time frameâ€â€as the 3.5 years that the woman (Israel) is persecuted.

Why continue to cling to religious tradition?

If you allow yourself to embrace Christ, Gabriel, Daniel, Paul, John, and Matthew, you will earn respect in Heaven… and on Earth from those who trust and follow you.

God bless.

revel

 

[Revel]

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE FOUR HORSEMEN: THE BIRTH PAINS

There is a progression of thought in the Bible: the New Testament apostles expound upon prophecies spoken by the Old Testament prophets. The prophecy of the Four Horsemen is not an exception.

The vision given to John of the Four Horsemen was first given to Zechariah (6): the “four spirits of the heavens.†The role of the “four spirits of the heavens†in the end times was first given to Ezekiel; the “four spirits†shall bring the “four dreadful judgments†to the Earth.

The “four spirits of the heavensâ€Ââ€â€the Four Horsemenâ€â€are agents of Heaven’s will who bring judgment. With judgment comes tribulation upon the Earth. In the case of the end-times judgment, that tribulation represents “birth pains.â€Â

Just what exactly do birth pains precede?

The birth pains precede the “birth†of the transformed church off the Earth (the sixth seal), and the “rebirth†of Israel after the second coming of Christ to Israel (the seventh seal).

According to Christ’s revelation to John, tribulation from Heaven upon the Earth has a distinct beginning (when the first seal opens), and continues through the seventh sealâ€â€intensifying right up to when Israel is saved. Christ is revealing this: birth pains not only precede the salvation of Israel, they precede the salvation of the church. The release of the Four Horsemen brings the promise of the fulfillment of all that has been written about the church and Israel.

THE FOUR HORSEMEN: JOHN AND EZEKIEL

JOHN
And power was given unto them [the Four Horsemen] over the fourth part of the earth, TO KILL WITH SWORD, AND WITH HUNGER, AND WITH DEATH, AND WITH THE BEASTS OF THE EARTH. (Rev. 6:8 kjv)

EZEKIEL
For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my FOUR DREADFUL JUDGMENTSâ€â€SWORD AND FAMINE AND WILD BEASTS AND PLAGUEâ€â€to kill its men and their animals! Yet there will be some survivorsâ€â€sons and daughters who will be brought out of it. They will come to you, and when you see their conduct and their actions, you will be consoled regarding the disaster I have brought upon Jerusalemâ€â€every disaster I have brought upon it. You will be consoled when you see their conduct and their actions, for you will know that I have done nothing in it without cause, declares the Sovereign Lord. (Ezek. 14:21-23)

Divine judgment is the final stage of a just and patient God who seeks for all to be saved. When divine redemption is beyond the reach of man’s mind because of man’s depravity, then judgment must followâ€â€for God is a righteous and just God and that requires judgment. Divine judgment is not only upon the unrighteous Gentiles, but as seen throughout the Old Testament, divine judgment is upon the unrighteous Israelites.

Ezekiel prophesied of judgment upon Jerusalem that shall come to pass in the end times.

EZEKIEL
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. Yet in her wickedness she has rebelled against my laws and decrees more than the nations and countries around her. She has rejected my laws and has not followed my decrees. Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: You have been more unruly than the nations around you and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws. You have not even conformed to the standards of the nations around you. Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you in the sight of the nations. Because of all your detestable idols, I WILL DO TO YOU WHAT I HAVE NEVER DONE BEFORE AND WILL NEVER DO AGAIN. (Ezek. 5:5-9)

MATTHEW
FOR THEN THERE WILL BE GREAT DISTRESS, UNEQUALED FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD UNTIL NOWâ€â€AND NEVER TO BE EQUALED AGAIN. (Matt. 24:21)

EZEKIEL
WHEN I SHOOT AT YOU WITH MY DEADLY AND DESTRUCTIVE ARROWS OF FAMINE, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. I WILL SEND FAMINE AND WILD BEASTS against you, and they will leave you childless. PLAGUE AND BLOODSHED will sweep through you, and I WILL BRING THE SWORD AGAINST YOU. I the Lord have spoken. (Ezek. 5:16, 17)

Ezekiel prophesied of “four dreadful judgments†and John prophesied how the same judgments would be delivered: the Four Horsemen.

How will God shoot “deadly and destructive arrows of famine�

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Rev. 6:2 kjv)

How will God “bring the sword�

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. (Rev. 6:4 kjv)

How will God “send famine and wild beasts†and “plague and bloodshed�

And power was given unto them [the Four Horsemen] over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (Rev. 6:8 kjv)

Christ himself made reference to this time in his revelation given to Matthew:

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. (Matt. 24:7, 8 kjv)

“Sorrows†means, “a pang or throe, esp. of childbirth:â€â€pain, sorrow, travail.â€Â

The divine harmony of divine revelation given to us by Ezekiel, Zechariah, John, and Matthew reveals this: The “four spirits of the heavensâ€Ââ€â€who are the Four Horsemenâ€â€shall bring God’s “four dreadful judgmentsâ€Â: birth pains. (This is not to say that all the birth pains proceed from the Four Horsemen.) According to Christ’s revelation to Matthew, the birth pains must be hereafter and must precede Israel’s salvation. If Revelation is about what must be hereafter, then the birth pains must be in Revelation.

Are we as Christ’s church supposed to believe that it is just a coincidence that Ezekiel prophesied of the “four dreadful judgments†and Zechariah and John saw a vision of four separate chariots/horses and that John saw four judgments delivered by the Four Horsemen and that the prophecies of Ezekiel and John both speak of the end-times?

THE FOUR HORSEMEN: TRIBULATION

With the Four Horsemen on the Earth comes divine judgment, and with that judgment comes tribulationâ€â€which the church is transformed out of:

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:13, 14 kjv)

Are we as Christ’s church supposed to believe that there is no connection between the events of the first four seals (the Four Horsemen) and the events surrounding the sixth seal (the salvation of the church)?

The church is not receiving God’s judgment, but nevertheless, the church is still on the Earth and therefore is in the presence of tribulation.

WRATH

Following the salvation of the church, the birth pains shall intensify, for now shall be the time of wrath:

ISAIAH
And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (Isa. 13:8, 9 kjv)

THE FIVE HORSEMEN

Unlike “the two witnesses†who are killed (and ascend to Heaven), there is no record that the Four Horsemen cease from their judgment in Revelation. In other words, the Four Horsemen will continue to bring forth the will of Heaven right up to the time of the descent of the Fifth Horseman: Christ.

The focal point for Christ is the Holy Land (to destroy evil and restore Heaven’s reign over Jerusalem), and the focal point of the Four Horsemen is Jerusalemâ€â€along with a fourth part of the Earth.

Characteristics found in the Four Horsemen are fully manifested by Christ himself when he descends from Heaven on his white horse.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. . . . And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword (Rev. 19:11, 15 kjv)

Are we to assume that Christ will have a literal sword hanging out of his mouth?

[T]he sword of the Spirit. . . is the word of God. (Eph. 6:17 kjv)

If Christ makes war for righteousness sake, then what is the role of the Second Horseman?

He is making war for righteousness sake based on the truth found in the Word of God. “Power was given him [the red horse]†by Heaven to carry out the individual role of producing war founded upon righteous judgment.

War brought about by the Second Horseman (that precedes the salvation of the church) foreshadows the war that Christ himself will wage against the Antichrist (that precedes the salvation of Israel).

The Third Horseman receives “balances.â€Â

Why?

What is the context? Judgment.

The prophet Daniel spoke of the “balances†in the context of judgment and the corresponding consequences:

Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. . . . Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. (Dan. 5:27, 28 kjv)

What are the “wages of sin� For the wages of sin is death. (Rom. 6:23)

The “balances†given to the black horse is the metaphorical representation of God’s divine judgment. Judgment of man shall be upon God’s balances: what man sows is what man shall reap; what man shall receive shall be balanced against what he earned (in life).

The Fourth Horseman brings the grave (Hades).

The First Horseman, riding on a white horse, is given a “bow.†The Greek word for “bow,†toxon, finds its root in a word that means, “to produce. . . , lit. or fig.:â€â€bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.â€Â

What else is to be learned from the “white†horse? Christ and the church appeared to John riding on white horses. Why white? White is associated with holiness and righteousnessâ€â€which is what Christ is: holy and righteous. The symbolism of the white horse is that he brings the standard of Heaven to Earth: holiness and righteousness.

GOD’S COVENANT

It is God’s covenant that mankind decides to be in harmony with or in rebellion against. The heart of the Old Covenant and the Neovenant is salvation.

Everything that must be hereafter, as seen in Revelation, is founded upon righteousness; it is founded upon the Word of God; it is founded upon God’s covenant; it is the agreement with mankindâ€â€which the Creator is faithful to bring forth into reality.

“The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and greatâ€â€and for destroying those who destroy the earth.†Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. (Rev. 11:18, 19)

God bless.

revel

 

[Vic C.]

Vic: I know where you are coming from: You believe that the 3.5 years of the two witnesses is the same prophecyâ€â€the same time frameâ€â€as the 3.5 years that the woman (Israel) is persecuted. You also believe that John is only expounding upon the second half of the seventieth “seven†in Revelation (during the wrath)â€â€not the whole seven years.

I NEVER said that. I believe Revelation covers the entire 70th. week and then some.

Vic,
In an earlier post, you said you didn’t understand the seven-year prophecy.

I never said that either. It was in reference to what you said in the quote below. This part of it actually…

“Seven years after Christ ascends to Heaven with the church…â€Â

The Church: The Sixth Seal: The first arrival of Christ:
“And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€Â

Seven years after Christ ascends to Heaven with the church…

Israel: The Seventh Seal: The second arrival of Christ:
“The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.

Now I'm confused. Christ's first arrival was at His birth. His second advent, or arrival will be at the conclusion of the 70th. week, finalizing the Wrath and to gather His Chosen ones; Israel. I do not understand the seven year thingy. From my calculations, the ekklesia is gathered late in the 70th. week, (between 6th. and 7th. seal) somewhere during the second half, just before the Day of the Lord (God's wrath) The promise given to us in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is for those who have put their trust and Faith in Jesus. correct?

Just a thought, maybe a timeline of events as you see them would clear up any confusion. I'm not sure, now that you have mentioned a seven year period, if you are proposing a pre-70th. week harpazio.

As for the rest of your posts, you can believe what you want to believe. I have laid out my timeline for you, listed many verses and references and my posts were as clear and concise as possible. Sorry if you don’t accept or understand them.

This is not essential doctrine, it is theory and I will have nothing to apologize to Jesus about… because it isn’t essential to my salvation. You seem to use that as a scare tactic. I have nothing to be scared about concerning End Times.

FYI, here is the proper timeline for the two Prophets:

http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/ ... nesses.htm

and Revelation 12’s Woman:

http://jcsm.org/Contents/Revelation12.htm

You really need to take all prophetic scripture into account and properly harmonize them if you are to get the proper timeline of events.

I have nothing further to add to this topic.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Vic C.]

Do you expect the body of Christ to overlook the fact that Christ clearly marked 3.5 years in the second woe and 3.5 years in the third woe?

Unbelievable! I show scripture that CLEARLY shows the woes are the fifth, sixth and seventh trumpets and you say this??? So, you actually believe the second and third woes, which are the sixth and seventh trumpets, encompass the entire seven years? Where so you see the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowls? You just ran out of time.

Do you honestly expect us in the body of Christ to believe 3.5 years plus 3.5 years equals 3.5 years?

That make no sense. You are spectulating about the length of the woes.

How will you explain your position when you stand before your Lord and Savior?

I won't need to, this is all theory, not essential dictrine.

Christ clearly stated the woes do not overlap; they are not concurrent.

I agree. I nerver suggested otherwise. Why even mention it?

How can any theologian have the authority to jump over chapters 12 and 13 and declare they have nothing to do with the third woe? Not only do the events follow the seventh trumpet, Christ introduces the events by referring to the woe: “But WOE [the third woe] to the earth and the sea.â€Â

This shows you really don't understand Revelation as well as you think you do. I urge you to reconsider and do some studying and research on this section of Revelations, specifically the 12th. thru 14th. chapters. I already posted some good stuff on this.

How can any theologian, any minister, any denomination, any Christian successfully overturn or explain away the events of the woes and the time marked by Christ within the woes?

Please, no one is trying to overturn anything. You clearly do not comprhend any of what I have written. I see no use in me posting here anymore. I have nothing more to add to this conversation.

Later,
Vic

 

[Revel]

Hello to everyone following this,

As we know, in the first century, there were those who rejected John (3 John 9, 10) and Paul (2 Tim. 1:15), and tragically, history has repeated itself.

The divine harmony of divine revelation given to us by John, Paul, and Peter marks an unmistakable, divine threshold that will unfold in the sky. To embrace the “signless†theory, one must first reject John, Paul, and Peter.

In the revelation that Christ gave to his apostles, there is a repeating pattern in the introductory sentences:

1. The writer introduces himself.
2. The writer addresses the revelation.
3. The writer specifically identifies characteristics that can only be true for the church of Godâ€â€those who embraced Jesus as their Lord and have received salvation.
4. The writer speaks of the future salvation of the church when Christ shall be revealed in the clouds.

Take a look at the repeating pattern found in the revelation given to John, Paul, and Peter.

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO JOHN
John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia. . . . To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his [Christ’s] blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherâ€â€to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. Look, he [Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. (Rev. 1:4, 6, 7)

Who are those who have been freed from their sins by Christ’s “blood�

For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. (1 Peter 1:18, 19)

Who are those who are now within the “kingdom�

For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Col. 1:13, 14)

To which group of people is John writing?

“The Jews. . . the Gentiles. . . [or] the church of God†(1 Cor. 10:32 kjv).The church of God…

Those who are in the church have been freed from their sins and are in the kingdom of Christâ€â€and each member of the body of Christ is a priest. How?

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to Godâ€â€this is your spiritual act of worship. (Rom. 12:1)

We in the church do not offer dead sacrifices as the priests did in the times of the Old Covenant, but rather, with the New Covenant, we offer our lives as living sacrifices. Herein, everyone in the body of Christ is his or her own priest before the great high priest: Christ.

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. (Heb. 4:14)

What is the ultimate salvation of the body of Christ?

“Look, he [Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him.â€Â

How can anyone in the body of Christâ€â€in clear conscience before Heavenâ€â€just dismiss Christ’s revelation to John?

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PAUL
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christâ€â€their Lord and ours. Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every wayâ€â€in all your speaking and in all your knowledgeâ€â€because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:1-8)

Who are those sanctified in Christ Jesus?

Those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus are the same people who are freed from their sins by the blood of Lamb: the church of God.

There is one, universal church (of God) which is composed of many churches (assemblies). Both John and Paul addressed their correspondence to the churches (assemblies) within the church of God. Whereas Paul wrote to seven churches via individual letters, John wrote to seven churches via a book.

Both John and Paul prophesied that our Lord and Savior would not be hidden from view in the clouds, but rather, his glory would be made known and seen.

“As you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.â€Â

How can anyone in the body of Christâ€â€in clear conscience before Heavenâ€â€just dismiss Christ’s revelation to John and Paul?

CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PETER
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fadeâ€â€kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:1-5)

The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 2:20, 21)

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (1 Peter 2:9, 10)

Who are “God’s elect†“chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood�

Who are those who have received the “new birth�

Who are “now†“the people of God�

Who has “now. . . received mercy�

Who “are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God�

Who has a “living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead�

Who are those who call on the ââÅ“name of the Lord†and will be “saved†when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red?

Us. The church of God…

John, Paul, and Peter wrote to us, the church of God.

How can any theologian, any minister, any Christian successfully overturn or explain away the truth about us… given to us… by Christ’s apostles?

God bless.

revel

 

[lecoop]

In other words, if our Lord gave us divine authority (on Pentecost) to proclaim to his church we shall be saved when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation andâ€â€with absolute, divine confidenceâ€â€mark the descent of Christ to the same solar and lunar signs (the sixth seal)?

I am in complete agreement with you. I see the sixth seal as the 'time' when the harpazio occurs. We differ so far as to where in Daniel's 70th. week this sixth seal event takes place. I just don't see it as the beginning of the week. There is no Biblical evidence indicating that the Great Tribulation or God's Wrath, or both make up the entire week, or that the GT and the Wrath are one in the same.

Blessing to you though, for putting so much effort into your eschatological beliefs.

I also am in agreement, but perhaps for a different reason. I too am convinced that the great crowd is the newly raptured church, and that they were raptured at the sixth seal. Actually, I disagree with Vic. There is biblical evidence that His wrath is the entire week. There is biblical evidence that the week starts with the 7th seal. And there is biblical evidence that the week ends with the 7th vial, and that the midpoint is the 7th trumpet. In other words, God uses the sevens to mark the 70th week. I hope we can get into these scriptures.

Revel, I commend you for an awesome job! I have been alone saying these things for too long! It is good to have company!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Hello Vic,

Honestly, it is a blessing to see that we are on the same page regarding our future salvation... marked at the sixth seal. Also, thank you for your blessing...

Allow me to begin on our common ground: the sixth seal. I would like to run a few Scriptures by you…

This is what I find interesting: After the sixth seal opens, both “great tribulation†and “wrath†are spoken of by John.

Why is this?

Is it possible that they are both spoken of in the same seal because the sixth seal represents the divine threshold for the entire population on the planet?


THE SIXTH SEAL: GREAT TRIBULATION

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14 kjv)

We as the church are gathered out of “great tribulationâ€Ââ€â€not “wrath.â€Â

What is the nature of this great tribulation?

This is where I am coming from: Shouldn’t we allow Christ’s revelation about the first four seals to guide us in our understanding of this great tribulation found in the sixth seal?

In other words, the origin of this great tribulation is explained by Christ in the same book: Revelation.

In essence, reading Revelation in chronological order allows us to see the cause behind the effect... the chain of events.

After the sixth seal opens, then comes the “wrath.â€Â

Is there “great tribulation†in “wrathâ€Â? Yes. This is the time prophesied by Christ in Holy Land: “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.†(Matt. 24:21, 22)

It is the “wrath†that makes this span of time “unequaled from the beginning of the world until now.â€Â

We who embrace Jesus as the Messiah (the church) will face “great tribulation,†but we will not face “wrathâ€Ââ€â€because we are “saved†from it by being gathered into Heaven.

Those who reject Jesus as the Messiah will face “wrathâ€Ââ€â€because they will remain on the Earth.


THE SIXTH SEAL: WRATH

For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand? (Rev. 6:17)

According to this revelation, wrath is announced at the sixth seal (and actually commences with the seventh seal).

Christ’s revelation to Paul spoke of the same “wrath.â€Â

[A]nd to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the deadâ€â€Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thess. 1:10)

Reading Revelation in chronological order allows us to understand the fullness of what Paul meant: we are saved from wrath because we are transformed and transported off the planet before the wrath actually begins.

We also know that seven years is marked after the announcement of the wrath: (Rev. 11:3; 13:5, 11). Of course, this is the scriptural justification (I see) to mark the seven-years of wrath that affects those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

Your thoughts…

God bless.

revel

From your last paragraph, you mention the 7 years, and from the previous paragraph, I assume you mean this 7 years to begin at the 7th seal. The one biggest problem most people have with this idea, is the two words, they came out of "great tribulation."

Actually, this is like a line drawn in the sand, with one end being total peace, and the other end the worst possible tribulation. As we move along the line from the peace end towards the other end, we encounter more and more pressure coming to us because of our stand on the Word of God. John calls this "tribulation." Tribulation can be slight, such as school kids picking on a Christian, and making fun of them, to "great" like someone being killed just because they are born again, such as the girl in the Columbine High School in Colorado. Most people immediately think of the last half of the week, when they see the words, "great tribulation," because that is what that time period has been called. However, Jesus put even more emphasis on that time, saying it would be the greatest time of tribulation ever. So that time period would be on the tribulation end of the line.

Now lets put this idea with the great crowd. John saw this crowd before the 7 years begin. The sixth seal will be broken at least 3 1/2 years before the abomination will take place, and the time of greatest tribulation that will follow. Why, then, did John say that this great crowd came out of "great tribulation?" Because by the time of the rapture, pressure will be great almost around the globe. We haven't seen anything yet! For us here in the US, we hardly know what tribulation is. But right today, things are much worse if someone is a Christian living in Indonesia, or some other Muslim Country. Their life is in danger every day. So when the rapture takes place, there will be great tribulation felt in most countries around the globe. However, it will be worse yet, during the last 3 1/2 years. Interesting, I am currently chatting with a Christian from Indonesia, and she just wrote this:

"3 christians will be punished dead tonight, so please pray for them

my country has many regions, christians land is fertile ... so they are jealous .. and make riot to take christians land .. in some regions they force christians to change the faith ..."

If they are put to death, it will be "great tribulation" for them and their families.

Where do the first four seals come in? They are simple not a part of the 70th week, nor a part of the day of the Lord. But Satan was evidently allowed to have his part in the fight for the planet, and when the first seals were broken, he was allowed some authority to kill, but it was limited to 1/4th of the planet. This was evidently written into the scroll long before John saw it. In the Olivet discourse, when Jesus was ask about the end times, He started with the time then: 33 AD. He included some things about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And then he summarized the entire church age, from a Jewish standpoint, summarizing the next 2000 years. Then suddenly He jumped to the midpoint of the week. In other words, He went from "the end is not yet," to the midpoint of the week. The first four seals cover this same time frame: the last 2000 years. If we open our heart to understand, and our eyes to history, we will see that there have been wars continually for these thousands of years, in Africa. There have been famines and pestilences over and over during this same time frame also, because these seals are history for us.

Comment welcome.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Please don't take offense, but you are mixing up the sequence of events. The Great Trib and the Wrath are not the same. The great Trib comes first, aprox. midpoint in the seventh week. Revelation 6:9 Revelation 12:6-17

The Wrath starts here, just after the sixth seal events take place and after the seventh seal interlude. Revelation 6:17

Remember the sign Jesus gave in Matthew?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Now watch this:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;...

... Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus said this would occur "Immediately after the tribulation..." This is clearly a sign of the impending Wrath of God. Now, how can the Wrath and the Great Trib be one in the same when Jesus is telling us the events that are about to transpire are "Immediately after the tribulation..."?

The war in Heaven, the three messengers and the two witnesses, along with this (below) all commence midway through the 70th. week.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

This event is not seven years, nor is it the start of the 70th. week, but is the start of the second half of the week. Jesus is telling us the Gospel will be preached to all nations when, not before, the Desolation occurs.

The events in Matthew 24:16-21 also occur right after the Desolation; including this:

21a-For then shall be great tribulation,...

Thinking this is in the first half of the week is an easy mistake to make if you don't consider that parts of Rev. 11 on through 15 are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation.

Maybe this link will help understand better the sequence of events in Revelation. Please take the time to read through it. I think he is right and there are many others who feel the same.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html


Hopfully this chart will help in understanding "my" timing of events.

Vic, I just have to disagree with you here. Rev 6:9 has no words that tie it conclusively to the 70th week. That is just man's idea. People started dying for Jesus as soon as the church was started. Stephen is a great example. It is a mistake to tie this verse to the 70th week. The context does not fit.

However, we are in agreement that His wrath starts at the 7th seal. It is the opening of the "day of the Lord," and the 70th week. We both are in agreement that the time of greatest tribulation will be after the abomination. You pointed to Rev 12 for that, right? Good. I agree. And this was the exact time that Jesus was pointing to, when he mentions the signs that would come after the tribulation of those days: He was speaking of a time after the abomination! (this would equate with Rev 12) How then can you equate cosmic signs that come before with week, with signs that come after the midpoint of the week? It is, of course, impossible! Jesus is speaking of the second time these cosmic signs will be seen: at at time Just before His return in Rev 19.

You said:

Thinking this is in the first half of the week is an easy mistake to make if you don't consider that parts of Rev. 11 on through 15 are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation.

I must protest again! It is your mistake of assuming incorrectly that two times cosmic signs are mentioned must be speaking of the same event - even though the texts show them to be almost 7 years apart! It is this mistake that makes you believe that these portions of John's great book is "out of sequence!" It is rather your understanding that is out. : -))) Sorry, that seemed too easy to slip in right there! Again, if you study these two cosmic sign verse closely, they are different. In this case, I must agree with Revel. Oh, I disagree with your chart. John's chronology disagrees too.

Why do you think John would show the midpoint in chapter 12, 6 chapters after you think it would be? Would you write it that way? I wouldn't!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Vic said

I disagree and will explain:

Where to you see the two witnesses occurring? How about the war in Heaven and the persecution of the remnant of the Woman's seed?

The two witnesses show up just before the exact midpoint of the week, according to John. (That is where the visions introduce them to John)

The war in heaven is just after the exact midpoint. (the exact midpoint being the 7th trumpet.) The persecution of the woman fleeing will of course be after the abomination event.

So the woman flees and is protected for the second 1260 days, and it is this exact period of time that the two witnesses will testify! (there may be 3 1/2 days difference: the witnesses may start 3 1/2 days before the woman flees.)

Vic said

Following so far?

Now lets look at Daniel:

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Here we see Daniel has added 30 plus 45 days to the prophecy of Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6.

Lets do the math:
1,335 days - 30 - 45 = 1,260 days, which equals thousand two hundred and threescore days.

All the events described above take place around the start of the second half of the 70th. week, but...

We see that John writes about them after he writes about the seals and trumpets. He doesn't even get to the bowls (vials) until Revelation 15:7. Unless the events in chs. 11 and 12-15 occur after the trumpets (which we know they don't) there is only possibility.

Yes, I agree that they all start very near the exact midpoint of the week. In this we are agreed. Yes, of course John writes about them after he writes about the seals and trumpets, for the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint! (one exception: the two witnesses are introduced to John just before the 7th trumpet is sounded.) So John is in perfect chronology: no problems at all, if you keep the seals out of the 70th week.

John does not get to the bowls or vials until chapter 15, because, as I have said before, he is in an "intermission" to catch the readers up on all the midpoint events before the first vial can be poured out! However, the first vial will be poured out very near the abomination event. It just doesn't look that way, for there are so many midpoint events that John has to cover. In other words, time is almost "suspended" during these chapters. Each event happens "machine gun" fashion, one quickly after another.

You said, "Unless the events in chs. 11 and 12-15 occur after the trumpets (which we know they don't) there is only possibility."

They do indeed happen after the trumpets! Of course they happen after the trumpets, for that is where God placed them in the visions. And there is no need to move them, for they make perfect sense where they are! Yes, we DO know that they happen after the trumpets. The trumpets are sounded in the first half of the week, and the vials in the second half: plain and simple.

Vic said

as a matter of fact, we see the remnant of the Woman's seed being persecuted in the events starting here;

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Please tell me what words here make you think that this is the description of the persecution of the remant or her seed. This is a perfect description of what has been happening in African for the last 2000 years. War, famine, more war, more famine, pestilence, death, over and over, BUT limited to 1/4th of the earth. If we look back at Germany in WW 2, we will get a better description of what will be happening during the second 1260 days, to both Jews and believers.

Vic said

Also, the Wrath begins here:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We believe this to be not in the first half, but in the second half. So, how can John be telling us about events in the second half here (Rev. 6:7-9) go on to the trumpets, then describe the very start of the second half in ch.11 and 12 (the Tribulation) if at least some of Revelation breaks continuity?

I declare by Scripture that events from to ch. 11 to the end of ch. 14 start by backpedal to the beginning of the second half of the 70th. week.

We are agreed as to when the wrath starts. However, this cannot be in the second half. If you just lay aside your "system" for a while, and determine once and for all where the exact midpoint is, and then work forward and backward from that point, these problems will clear up! There can be no doubt that God knew exactly where this midpoint would be, when He gave these visions to John. There is no reason for God to "mix up" the chronology. He gave these visions in the exact order that they will happen. You have already agreed that the fleeing in chapter 12 is the result of the abomination, so this must then be, very near the midpoint. And it is, for the exact midpoint is in chapter 11, the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

It is obvious that either your "system" is faulty as far as chronology, or John's chronology is faulty. I see John's as perfect as written. Sorry, but I will go with John's! Perhaps we can spend some more time on one or two specific verses that are bothering you.

I declare that John does NOT backpeddle, but give events in the order that they will take place. (with minor exceptions, such as when John is introduced to the witnesses, he them takes them through their entire 1260 days. Same with the dragon, and same with the beast.) However, it is the timing of the "introduction" of these charactors that falls into the perfect chronology. For example, the two witnesses are introduced to John just before the 7th trumpet is sounded. I personally believe it will be 3 1/2 days before.


Vic said, maybe quoting someone else?

As has been described, Revelation 11:1-19 was a review of the second half (42 months or 1,260 days) of the 70th Week. Likewise, Revelation 12:6–14:20 is yet another chronological and sequential review of the second half (1,260 days) of the 70th Week.

This is not the way John wrote this chapter. It is not a "review." Yes, once John is introduced to the witnesses, he does take them through the 1260 days, but after this, John goes right back to a "real-time" event and sounds the 7th trumpet, marking the exact midpoint! Then we find a short "preview" of things to come. (verse 18)

In Chapter 12, we see more midpoint events. In chapter 13 John is introduced to the beast, and again, once on the beast, John shows most of his "career." Chapter 14 is again more midpoint events. For example, it makes perfect sense that an angel would warn every human in his own language not to take the mark of the beast - before the beast comes up with the mark! Agreed? The 144,000 are seen again, this time in heaven. So John is telling us that they were raptured right near the midpoint. Again, if you want to discuss a specific verse, by all means, bring it up. The "reaping" with a sickle, is for sure not to be taken literally. Yes, corn may be reaped with a sickle, but not people. This seems to be a preview of coming events. In this small portion, I can agree with you. : -)))

(quoted)

Those who promote the sequential theory believe this is the most natural way to understand Revelation. But, though they claim to interpret sequentially, they rarely do. While they place the seals, trumpets, and vials, in sequence, they usually recognize some recapitulation. This is especially apparent in chapters 12 through 14. In practice, a purely sequential understanding will not fit with any of the rapture views. This is demonstrated by adding up all the time periods given in the book.

1. Jerusalem will be trodden under foot for 42 months. [Rev. 11:2]
2. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days. [Rev. 11:3]
3. Israel will be protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years. [Rev. 12:14]
4. Antichrist will continue 42 months. [Rev. 13:5]

This gives us a total of fourteen years. And, it does not take into account the time necessary for the seven seals, the first six trumpets, and all seven vials. Obviously, there is some recapitulation in Revelation. The two descriptions of the battle of Armageddon, [chapters 14 and 19], the twice mentioned destruction of Babylon, [14:8 and chapters 17&18], and the establishing of Christ's Kingdom twice, [11:15-18 & 20:1-4], give substantial evidence that Revelation is not entirely sequential. This should come as no surprise to us, however, since Revelation's sister book, Daniel, is not sequential either.

"In practice, a purely sequential understanding will not fit with any of the rapture views." I disagree.

Jerusalem will be trodden under foot for 42 months, while at the same time, The two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days, while at the same time, Israel will be protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years, while at the same time, Antichrist will continue 42 months. So where is the problem? Since the seals do not belong in the 7 year period, again no problem. I don't see the battle of Armageddon in chapter 14. Since much of the bible is prophecy, it is very likely that some of Revelation is as a prophecy in a prophecy. For example: 11:19. I doubt if the hail was actually in the throne, but John was seeing a mini-prophecy that the time would soon come for the hail to fall on earth.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Hello Vic,

Thanks for your post...

Before I directly respond, let me say this:

There is a difference between the numbered chapters and numbered end-time events...

The numbered chapters do not reflect an unbroken chain of end-time events... Revelation 12 is an example of this.

The numbered end-time events do reflect the precise order that they shall unfold.

This is why I was careful to say "numbered end-time events" in my previous post.

We as Christ’s church are not empowered to suggest that certain, numbered end-time events are out of sequence with the whole of Revelation.

Vic: Let's focus on the second and third woes...

THE SECOND WOE

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

This is referring to the second woe, not the third... That is what Christ said:

The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. (Rev. 11:14)

THE THIRD WOE

If the second woe ended after the 3.5-year prophecy of the two witnesses, then the next 3.5 year prophecy marked by Christ refers to which woe? The next one... the third.

The beast [the Antichrist] was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5)

This is the same 3.5 years as described below:

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is referring to the third woe, not the second.

How can the prophecies of Rev. 12:6 and 13:5 be the same prophecy as Rev. 11:3? According to Christ, they are different woes.

The second woe shall come to pass after the fulfillment of the first woe and the third woe shall come to pass after the fulfillment of the second woe.

Do you agree with Christ's marking of numbered end-time events? The second woe speaks of the two witnesses... The third woe speaks of the Antichrist...

Before moving forward I'd like to know your thoughts on the content of the second and third woes... And do you believe that they shall come to pass as Christ marked them... one after the other... in sequential order...

In other words, the second and third woes are... 3.5 years for the two witnesses and then 3.5 years for the Antichrist and false prophet.... which is Daniel's final seven years of prophecy.

God bless

revel

Sorry, Revel, but I must disagree with you here.


Prophecy of 3 woes 8:13
First woe: 9:1: And the fifth angel sounded....
"5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months:..."

This is the first woe: the torture of the scorpion like stings that go on for five months.
9:12 proves this: 12 One woe is past;

Second woe: 13 And the sixth angel sounded,
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Killing about 2 billion people is a BAD woe! This is the second woe. now notice how John ends this story:

9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

John has "changed the subject!" In fact, he has started his "midpoint intermission," where he must list many things that MUST take place before the first event of the second 1260 day will be: the first vial. so from here to chapter 14, is all part of the "midpoint intermission," and everything that John covers will be midpoint events (with minor exceptions.) First exception: In Revelation 11:14, John goes back (for a moment) to a real-time event: the sounding of the 7th trumpet, and some worship in heaven.) So the 2nd woe was finished with the 6th trumpet. In 11:14, John just mentions that the second woe is history, and it is time for the third woe. What then, is the third woe? It is the sounding of the 7th trumpet, that will give God the possesssion once again of planet earth! Now God can start winding things up, with the vials. So the 3rd woe, is all seven of the vials: filled with the wrath of God.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Revel said

To claim that the second woe does not include the two witnesses and the earthquake is to replace divine authority with man’s imagination.

The second woe is fulfilled after the earthquakeâ€â€not before.
After the 3.5-year testimony of the two witnesses and the earthquake, the second woe comes to an endâ€â€not before.

The seventh trumpet sounds after these eventsâ€â€not before.

The 3.5 years Satan pursues Israel is expounded upon: it is the time of the Antichrist and his 3.5-year reign.

How can the 3.5 years of the two witnesses on Earth be the same as the 3.5 years of the Antichrist? They are different woes.

What is the time marked by Christ with the second and third woes?

The second woe… 3.5 years… plus the third woe… 3.5 years… equals 7 years.

Do you expect the body of Christ to overlook the fact that Christ clearly marked 3.5 years in the second woe and 3.5 years in the third woe?

Do you honestly expect us in the body of Christ to believe 3.5 years plus 3.5 years equals 3.5 years?

How will you explain your position when you stand before your Lord and Savior?

Christ clearly stated the woes do not overlap; they are not concurrent.

Sorry Revel, but I just don't buy it. When John wrote "the second woe is past," he wrote accurately, even if the second woe had finished 100 years before. In other words, John did not say, ""the second woe is past now that the two witnesses have finished...." You have missed John's "midpoint intermission." You missed the last verse of chapter 9, and the first verse of chapter 10, where John dropped his "real-time" timeline, and went into an intermission. He had to do this, for there will be many events that take place at or near the midpoint, that John MUST cover before he pours out the first vial. So it is clear that the second vial ended with the 6th trumpet. Chapter 10 and the first part of chapter 11 have nothing at all to do with the woes, but are events that will take place near the midpoint.

Revel said

The second woe is fulfilled after the earthquakeâ€â€not before.

this is pure speculation, and not from a careful study of the texts involved. Sorry, Revel, but I believe you missed it this time. It is only the "introduction" of the two witness that take place right near the midpoint, not their entire ministry! That goes for 3 1/2 years. But the 7th trumpet is blown to mark the exact midpoint. It is NOT blown 3 1/2 years after John measures the temple!

Revel said

How can the 3.5 years of the two witnesses on Earth be the same as the 3.5 years of the Antichrist? They are different woes.

No, you just think they are. These two events run concurrantly: the two witnesses show up just before the midpoint, and witness for 1260 days, and the antichrist performs the abomiination right after the exact midpoint, and his authority goes for the same 42 months that the witnesses are speaking. Your mistake on the woe has led you farther astray . With your timing, the 70th week will be much longer than 7 years! That of course is impossible.

Revel said

The second woe… 3.5 years… plus the third woe… 3.5 years… equals 7 years.

Where then do you put the first trumpets? Will you extend this seven years that has been written for centuries? That is silly! The seven years goes from the 7th seal to the 7th vial, with the 7th trumpet marking the exact midpoint. Plain and simple.

Revel said

Do you expect the body of Christ to overlook the fact that Christ clearly marked 3.5 years in the second woe and 3.5 years in the third woe?

Do you honestly expect us in the body of Christ to believe 3.5 years plus 3.5 years equals 3.5 years?

Sorry, Revel, but you math is in error, because your understanding of the woes is in error. When John said, "the second woe is completed" this does not HAVE to mean that it was JUST completed. His sentence would be accurate if the woe was completed with the end if the 6th trumpet, which in fact, it was.

Revel said

How will you explain your position when you stand before your Lord and Savior?

Did you forget that our sins are under the blood? Never to be remembered? If indeed we must give an account of our beliefs, then I believe it will be you that must explain yourself here, and not Vic. Please go back and study the woes again.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Revel said,

For the first 3.5 years, the followers of Moses will rebuild their temple and offer sacrifice in Jerusalem. For the next 3.5 years, they will flee from Jerusalem into mountains where God will protect his faithful remnant from the Antichrist.

THE ANGEL GABRIEL AND CHRIST

Look at the revelation Christ gave to John regarding what will take place during the time of the second woe: “I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, ‘Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there’†(Rev. 11:1).

Why did Christ reveal this to us?
Why is Christ talking about the temple now?

This is when Israel will sign the seven-year peace agreement with the Antichrist, and Israel will be given the green light to rebuild its temple. That’s why the angel told John to measure the temple…

If, as you claim, this entire section deals strictly with the second 3.5 years, how can Israel rebuild the temple, offer sacrifices, and flee Jerusalem all at the same time?

Sorry, Revel, but your argument will not hold water. Did you forget that near the midpoint, the "daily" is taken away? And did you forget that at the midpoint, the abomination is "placed" in the holy place? Both of these things will need the completed temple. And if fact, the temple is complete when John is told to measure it. Perhaps we need to ask God why He chose to mention the temple here. Oh, He did want to include the clue to the midpoint: the 42 months. Perhaps this is why He mentioned the temple.

In truth, this entire section deals with midpoint events, not the second half of the week.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Revel said

GABRIEL
...He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many [Israelites] for one `seven' [seven years]. [THE SECOND WOE NOW BEGINS.] [Once the agreement is signed, the prophetic clock for Israel will start again. With the agreement signed, the two witnesses, who are a part of the second woe, will begin their mission, and the rebuilding of the temple will commence. This will continue for 3.5 yearsâ€â€the time marked by Christ.] [THE THIRD WOE NOW BEGINS.] In the middle of the `seven' he [the Antichrist] will put an end to sacrifice and offering [the sacrifices offered by the Israelites in their new temple will be ended]. And on a wing of the temple [which was being built during the first 3.5 years] HE [THE ANTICHRIST] WILL SET UP AN ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION [THE IMAGE IN HONOR OF THE BEAST], until THE END that is decreed is poured out [bowl judgments] on him [the Antichrist]. (Dan. 9:26, 27)

Again, this is just not the way John wrote it. The week starts with the covenant, and I think we agree on this. You have already hinted that the week starts with the 7th seal, and indeed it does. And this is where the agreement is signed, and this is where the 7 years will start: the 7th seal. It will go to the 7th vial, where you will read: "it is finished." At this point, the 70th week is over. You are still very confused over the 2nd woe. It is the 6th trumpet, which is sounded about 7 months before the exact midpoint of the week. When the ageement is signed on earth, the 7th seal is broken in heaven, and the first trumpet is sounded soon after. It is the beginning of the 70th week. The two witnesses will not show up until almost 3 1/2 years later, just before the midpoint. At the midpoint, the temple will have been complete for some time, and the "daily" sacrifices will have been ongoing for some time. You really need to re-study these woes again.

The middle of the seven will be very close to when the beast will perform the abomination, and of course the temple must be finished by then, for he also stops the daily, which will have been going on for some time. The third woe is the 7th trumpet, which marks the exact midpoint. Of course, this 7th trumpet sets the stage for the 7 vials, which are the real woe. (A trumpet sounded in heaven will probably not even be heard on earth. But when the first vial is poured out, it will be severly felt on earth. The third woe, then is all the vials.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Revel said

And power was given unto them [the Four Horsemen] over the fourth part of the earth, TO KILL WITH SWORD, AND WITH HUNGER, AND WITH DEATH, AND WITH THE BEASTS OF THE EARTH. (Rev. 6:8 kjv)

What in the world are you teaching? You are lumping the church of our Lord Jesus Christ, in with a gang of cutthroats (the other horsemen). Please, when you quote scripture, do it correctly! This is almost an abomination itself!

Did you not read the "them?" The "them" does NOT include the first horse or rider. Please note:

Sword:

4 And there went out another horse that was red: ... and there was given unto him a great sword.

Hunger:

5 ... And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. [Hunger]

Death:

8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death,

You are mistaken about these riders. The first rider is to represent the church of the Lord Jesus, and the other riders are the devil's response to the church. He is always behind, and always attempting to stop what God is doing.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Revel said

MATTHEW
FOR THEN THERE WILL BE GREAT DISTRESS, UNEQUALED FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD UNTIL NOWâ€â€AND NEVER TO BE EQUALED AGAIN. (Matt. 24:21)

You have this under your heading of the four horsemen, as if this had anything to do with them. Surely you know that Jesus spoke this about the time after the abomination. This will be thousands of years after the horsemen have ridden out.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Revel said

EZEKIEL
WHEN I SHOOT AT YOU WITH MY DEADLY AND DESTRUCTIVE ARROWS OF FAMINE, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. I WILL SEND FAMINE AND WILD BEASTS against you, and they will leave you childless. PLAGUE AND BLOODSHED will sweep through you, and I WILL BRING THE SWORD AGAINST YOU. I the Lord have spoken. (Ezek. 5:16, 17)

Ezekiel prophesied of “four dreadful judgments†and John prophesied how the same judgments would be delivered: the Four Horsemen.

How will God shoot “deadly and destructive arrows of famine�

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Rev. 6:2 kjv)

The arrow may seem to be a connection, but you are miles off on the white horse. He does not ride with the vermin, for he is righteous, since his horse is white. And he is the church, sent out to make disciples of the nations. The only problem is, the nations belong to the devil! The church will have to conquer! And we do! Hallelujah!

Cooper

 

[lecoop]

Revel said

THE FOUR HORSEMEN: TRIBULATION

With the Four Horsemen on the Earth comes divine judgment, and with that judgment comes tribulationâ€â€which the church is transformed out of:

I know it is 1:53 in the morning, and I am really tired, but you are really confused. YOu have led us to believe that the 70th week (commonly called "the tribulation" will start with the 7th seal, and you are correct. This event is about 2000 years after the horsemen ride out! The church is transformed out of the wrath of God, not what the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th horsemen are doing! And again, the first horse IS the church.

Coop