Vic said
I disagree and will explain:
Where to you see the two witnesses occurring? How about the war in Heaven and the persecution of the remnant of the Woman's seed?
The two witnesses show up
just before the exact midpoint of the week, according to John. (That is where the visions introduce them to John)
The war in heaven is
just after the exact midpoint. (the exact midpoint being the 7th trumpet.) The persecution of the woman fleeing will of course be after the abomination event.
So the woman flees and is protected for the second 1260 days, and it is this exact period of time that the two witnesses will testify! (there may be 3 1/2 days difference: the witnesses may start 3 1/2 days before the woman flees.)
Vic said
Following so far?
Now lets look at Daniel:
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Here we see Daniel has added 30 plus 45 days to the prophecy of Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6.
Lets do the math:
1,335 days - 30 - 45 = 1,260 days, which equals thousand two hundred and threescore days.
All the events described above take place around the start of the second half of the 70th. week, but...
We see that John writes about them after he writes about the seals and trumpets. He doesn't even get to the bowls (vials) until Revelation 15:7. Unless the events in chs. 11 and 12-15 occur after the trumpets (which we know they don't) there is only possibility.
Yes, I agree that they all start very near the exact midpoint of the week. In this we are agreed. Yes, of course John writes about them after he writes about the seals and trumpets, for the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint! (one exception: the two witnesses are introduced to John just before the 7th trumpet is sounded.) So John is in perfect chronology: no problems at all, if you keep the seals out of the 70th week.
John does not get to the bowls or vials until chapter 15, because, as I have said before, he is in an "intermission" to catch the readers up on all the midpoint events before the first vial can be poured out! However, the first vial will be poured out very near the abomination event. It just doesn't look that way, for there are so many midpoint events that John has to cover. In other words, time is almost "suspended" during these chapters. Each event happens "machine gun" fashion, one quickly after another.
You said, "Unless the events in chs. 11 and 12-15 occur after the trumpets (which we know they don't) there is only possibility."
They do indeed happen after the trumpets! Of course they happen after the trumpets, for that is where God placed them in the visions. And there is no need to move them, for they make perfect sense where they are! Yes, we DO know that they happen after the trumpets. The trumpets are sounded in the first half of the week, and the vials in the second half: plain and simple.
Vic said
as a matter of fact, we see the remnant of the Woman's seed being persecuted in the events starting here;
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Please tell me what words here make you think that this is the description of the persecution of the remant or her seed. This is a perfect description of what has been happening in African for the last 2000 years. War, famine, more war, more famine, pestilence, death, over and over, BUT limited to 1/4th of the earth. If we look back at Germany in WW 2, we will get a better description of what will be happening during the second 1260 days, to both Jews and believers.
Vic said
Also, the Wrath begins here:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
We believe this to be not in the first half, but in the second half. So, how can John be telling us about events in the second half here (Rev. 6:7-9) go on to the trumpets, then describe the very start of the second half in ch.11 and 12 (the Tribulation) if at least some of Revelation breaks continuity?
I declare by Scripture that events from to ch. 11 to the end of ch. 14 start by backpedal to the beginning of the second half of the 70th. week.
We are agreed as to when the wrath starts. However, this cannot be in the second half. If you just lay aside your "system" for a while, and determine once and for all where the exact midpoint is, and then work forward and backward from that point, these problems will clear up! There can be no doubt that God knew exactly where this midpoint would be, when He gave these visions to John. There is no reason for God to "mix up" the chronology. He gave these visions in the exact order that they will happen. You have already agreed that the fleeing in chapter 12 is the result of the abomination, so this must then be, very near the midpoint. And it is, for the exact midpoint is in chapter 11, the sounding of the 7th trumpet.
It is obvious that either your "system" is faulty as far as chronology, or John's chronology is faulty. I see John's as perfect as written. Sorry, but I will go with John's! Perhaps we can spend some more time on one or two specific verses that are bothering you.
I declare that John does NOT backpeddle, but give events in the order that they will take place. (with minor exceptions, such as when John is introduced to the witnesses, he them takes them through their entire 1260 days. Same with the dragon, and same with the beast.) However, it is the timing of the "introduction" of these charactors that falls into the perfect chronology. For example, the two witnesses are introduced to John just before the 7th trumpet is sounded. I personally believe it will be 3 1/2 days before.
Vic said, maybe quoting someone else?
As has been described, Revelation 11:1-19 was a review of the second half (42 months or 1,260 days) of the 70th Week. Likewise, Revelation 12:6–14:20 is yet another chronological and sequential review of the second half (1,260 days) of the 70th Week.
This is not the way John wrote this chapter. It is not a "review." Yes, once John is introduced to the witnesses, he does take them through the 1260 days, but after this, John goes right back to a "real-time" event and sounds the 7th trumpet, marking the exact midpoint! Then we find a short "preview" of things to come. (verse 18)
In Chapter 12, we see more
midpoint events. In chapter 13 John is introduced to the beast, and again, once on the beast, John shows most of his "career." Chapter 14 is again more midpoint events. For example, it makes perfect sense that an angel would warn every human in his own language not to take the mark of the beast -
before the beast comes up with the mark! Agreed? The 144,000 are seen again, this time in heaven. So John is telling us that they were raptured right near the midpoint. Again, if you want to discuss a specific verse, by all means, bring it up. The "reaping" with a sickle, is for sure not to be taken literally. Yes, corn may be reaped with a sickle, but not people. This seems to be a preview of coming events. In this small portion, I can agree with you. : -)))
(quoted)
Those who promote the sequential theory believe this is the most natural way to understand Revelation. But, though they claim to interpret sequentially, they rarely do. While they place the seals, trumpets, and vials, in sequence, they usually recognize some recapitulation. This is especially apparent in chapters 12 through 14. In practice, a purely sequential understanding will not fit with any of the rapture views. This is demonstrated by adding up all the time periods given in the book.
1. Jerusalem will be trodden under foot for 42 months. [Rev. 11:2]
2. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days. [Rev. 11:3]
3. Israel will be protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years. [Rev. 12:14]
4. Antichrist will continue 42 months. [Rev. 13:5]
This gives us a total of fourteen years. And, it does not take into account the time necessary for the seven seals, the first six trumpets, and all seven vials. Obviously, there is some recapitulation in Revelation. The two descriptions of the battle of Armageddon, [chapters 14 and 19], the twice mentioned destruction of Babylon, [14:8 and chapters 17&18], and the establishing of Christ's Kingdom twice, [11:15-18 & 20:1-4], give substantial evidence that Revelation is not entirely sequential. This should come as no surprise to us, however, since Revelation's sister book, Daniel, is not sequential either.
"In practice, a purely sequential understanding will not fit with any of the rapture views." I disagree.
Jerusalem will be trodden under foot for 42 months, while at the same time, The two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days, while at the same time, Israel will be protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years, while at the same time, Antichrist will continue 42 months. So where is the problem? Since the seals do not belong in the 7 year period, again no problem. I don't see the battle of Armageddon in chapter 14. Since much of the bible is prophecy, it is very likely that some of Revelation is as a prophecy in a prophecy. For example: 11:19. I doubt if the hail was actually in the throne, but John was seeing a mini-prophecy that the time would soon come for the hail to fall on earth.
Coop
