The Son of God started when?

[D4Christ]

Hebrews 1 says: 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

John 3.16 tells of the sending of One Who being the Son already, was sent to be the Savior.

The Lord Jesus is God, Who is eternal.

His Sonship is eternal.

The Son is God and according to Heb 1 expresses the very character of God and the glory of God, thus making him God in nature. Which is probably why scriptures state that Col 2 that in Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead. Godhead meaning all that makes God, God...latin equivalent is Divinity.

However, Heb 1 clearly demonstrates that the Son of God, had a God, who we know from other passages is the Father. Only the Father addresses his Son as God. Otherwise the Son himself and the apostles confess that the Father is God and the Son is Lord.

Heb 1

8 But to the Son he [the Father] says,
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
9 You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.

Unless the Son was having this conversation with himself, it was God the Father (as indicated in verse 5) speaking to His Son.

Or do we wish to suggest that the Son annointed himself?

Blessings,
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

You post..
'It would seem in error to suggest the Son only became the Son during his human birth, in light of the fact that the Father states his Son was with Him during creation.'

We disagree on that. I find God as Christ/God (not son) before He was Adam/God/Man/Son, & in Prophecying of their Godhead's ETERNAL PLAN before Christ became a HUMAN Second Adam, and then Son! (Again Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse)

And just the term 'Son' seems true, yet spiritually tricky, as angels are 'ministering spirits' that were created, yet we see two in conversation saying let 'US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE'. And with Only God stated as having Immortality, so it seems that these two with an Image are Immortal.

So where does an Immortal Son fit into that except by an Eternal known plan??? And US surely implies equal as the Word of God suggests. (rather states, in John 1:1--3 +!)

--Elijah

Elijah I can guess you are very educated and I appreciate that. But you never cease to confuse me with your writings. You are one person I would like to have a "verbal" discussion with.

What I can say is this.....I don't think any of this is tricky. I personally believe that there is confusion about God's nature based on what most Christians are taught about this before they even have time to pick up the bible and read it for themselves.

So, imho, and yes we will have to agree to disagree, I see in scriptures that God the Father begot his Son, who by the very nature of the word begot, would cause his Son to be Divine/God just like the One who begot him. This follows the rules of nature, in which each species begets it own kind. So if God the Father begot a Son, why would the Son have a nature different than his Father? He would be God too!

And while scriptures recognize the Son's divinity, imho they are clear that the Father is the boss and called God, and the Son (who for practical purposes shares the Father's divinity) does not share his Father's rank. So in scriptures the Son calls his Father God...correction the True God, the apostles call the Father God and we are told specifically the Son is Mediator and High Priest.

Scriptures also state the Son (if you believe Prov 8) was born before creation began. And when the beginning did start, God the Father created the universe and all we see within it (kingdoms, earth, sky, powers seen, unseen, people, etc) through his Son. So when we see in Gen, the Creation Story, God saying "let us make man..." it is obvious (to me at least) that God the Father is speaking to His Son, the architect by His side. Afterall, there are scriptures clearly stating that God the Father created through his Son and that the Son was present in the beginning....the beginning of our creation....the only beginning we have record of.

Knowing all of that, why would "us" be angels speaking when we know that during creation Father and Son were present together....one creating thru the other. Why wouldn't they talk to each other?

-The Father begot a Son
-The Father gave his Son all authority
-The Father created the world thru his Son
-The Father sent his Son into the world to take human form
-The Son revealed the Father's plan
-The Son confessed the Father as his God and our true God
-The Son died and went back to his Father's side, where he awaits the Father's appointed time to return
-The Son will destroy death and the grave
-The Son will turn all authority back over to his Father
-When we enter heaven the Son will write on us his name and His Father's name

I respect your opinons but to be honest, the Father/Son relationship described in scriptures between God the Father and his Son is so pure and simple to me that I cannot go back to the confusion I used to live in about their relationship.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah I can guess you are very educated and I appreciate that. But you never cease to confuse me with your writings. You are one person I would like to have a "verbal" discussion with.

What I can say is this.....I don't think any of this is tricky. I personally believe that there is confusion about God's nature based on what most Christians are taught about this before they even have time to pick up the bible and read it for themselves.

So, imho, and yes we will have to agree to disagree, I see in scriptures that God the Father begot his Son, who by the very nature of the word begot, would cause his Son to be Divine/God just like the One who begot him. This follows the rules of nature, in which each species begets it own kind. So if God the Father begot a Son, why would the Son have a nature different than his Father? He would be God too!

And while scriptures recognize the Son's divinity, imho they are clear that the Father is the boss and called God, and the Son (who for practical purposes shares the Father's divinity) does not share his Father's rank. So in scriptures the Son calls his Father God...correction the True God, the apostles call the Father God and we are told specifically the Son is Mediator and High Priest.

Scriptures also state the Son (if you believe Prov 8) was born before creation began. And when the beginning did start, God the Father created the universe and all we see within it (kingdoms, earth, sky, powers seen, unseen, people, etc) through his Son. So when we see in Gen, the Creation Story, God saying "let us make man..." it is obvious (to me at least) that God the Father is speaking to His Son, the architect by His side. Afterall, there are scriptures clearly stating that God the Father created through his Son and that the Son was present in the beginning....the beginning of our creation....the only beginning we have record of.

Knowing all of that, why would "us" be angels speaking when we know that during creation Father and Son were present together....one creating thru the other. Why wouldn't they talk to each other?

-The Father begot a Son
-The Father gave his Son all authority
-The Father created the world thru his Son
-The Father sent his Son into the world to take human form
-The Son revealed the Father's plan
-The Son confessed the Father as his God and our true God
-The Son died and went back to his Father's side, where he awaits the Father's appointed time to return
-The Son will destroy death and the grave
-The Son will turn all authority back over to his Father
-When we enter heaven the Son will write on us his name and His Father's name

I respect your opinons but to be honest, the Father/Son relationship described in scriptures between God the Father and his Son is so pure and simple to me that I cannot go back to the confusion I used to live in about their relationship.

Blessings,
Dee

OK: Not much difference except the 'son' right? (when Christ became the Son)
And the tricky part was meant for most theologian's (of Matt. 7's Broadway ones who agree on nothing much as 'i' see it, I did not mean you per/say!)

Do you know of many of the above who understand Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse + the difference between God in His O.T. Theocracy & His N.T. (permitted) Rom. 13's legal system of the second table of the Decalogue?

Anyhow, a Son was needed to be brough 'forth' as the second Adam so that he could die. That we agree on.

--Elijah

 

[heymikey80]

I believe Nebuchadnezzar saw "one like a son of gods" in the furnace (Daniel 3). There's a certain extension here for Neb's native religion, but the relevance seems to be clear: Neb could see the connection.

It appears your position is that the Word of God didn't become the Son of God until He was humanly incarnated, is that the intent? Yet the Word of God was God-with-God anyway, according to John 1:1.

Col 1:13-17 doesn't enforce the idea that the Son wasn't the Son before He was incarnated, either. The Son being the One through Whom all creation came about puts some kind of identity as the Son, from the point of the Creation. To me that's how John 1 reads as well, though I don't have any particular argument arising straight from the words there.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

To "Our image" Jesus was there in the beginning - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

FATHER, WORD, and Holy Spirit, rather. Until His conception there was no such thing as "Jesus", and the "Word" had not "Become flesh".

The Genesis cite doesn't indicate anything other than a "plurality", but Collossians 1 lets us know that the "Word" which was incarnated as "Jesus", was also the "Agent of creation".

 

[John Zain]

This is not an SOS, but an SSS ... Super Short Summary

The Word (the Logos) came from Heaven and became flesh (Jesus).

Gabriel said to CALL Mary's Baby "Jesus", "the Son of God", "the Son of the Most High".
(Gabriel did NOT say Mary's Baby WAS or IS the Son of God.)

The Holy Spirit "overshadowed" Mary, but accomplished what exactly? Good luck!
One thing for sure: Jesus' "father" was NOT a human, but was God the Holy Spirit.
Ergo, Jesus surely was the Son of God, and He was also "the ONLY-begotten Son of God".
(Jesus was the ONLY One ever to be procreated in this fashion.)

I cannot find one Scripture that clearly shows the Son of God was eternally in Heaven,
i.e. prior to Jesus' birth.

In Scripture there are 2 obvious "sendings" by Father God:
#1 - He sent the Word (the Logos) to earth to become flesh (Jesus).
#2 - 30 years later, He sent Jesus (the Son of God) into the world with His gospel.

I see much confusion in Scripture between these 2 sendings, and I am sure they can
only be resolved through spiritual revelation, which is how all spiritual truth comes.
I don't see my questions as being cultic because I believe Jesus was fully man and fully God.
Here are some of the examples:

John 10:
35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came
(and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,
‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jesus wasn't sanctified in Heaven before being sent, so this refers to #2.

John 11:
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God,
who is to come into the world.”
Was the woman referring to #1 or #2?

1 John 4:
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
This can easily refer to #2.

1 John 5:
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ;
not only by water, but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
This comes close to saying the Son of God was born of Mary.
It also comes close to saying this Jesus who was born of Mary "was" the Son of God
(not just "called" the Son of God).
It also can mean that Jesus was the Son of God because Jesus' real "father" was God.

Re: the two 1 John's above ...
This TEST of belief could refer to believing that Jesus’ “father” was the Holy Spirit (God).

 

[D4Christ]

I cannot find one Scripture that clearly shows the Son of God was eternally in Heaven,
i.e. prior to Jesus' birth.

John 17

1 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

John 3

13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Elijah674]

John 17


Blessings,
Dee

Christ was on earth as the second Adam, and the Son of God fulfilling prophecy. And was speaking as man about the past as Christ God. (one of the Godhead) That of Psalms 1:7 + Acts 13:33 (I think?) & Heb. 1:5.

And His birth DECLARED this Documentation! And His Fathers Annointing....
Matt. 3:17
[15] And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
[17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

--Elijah

 

[D4Christ]

Christ was on earth as the second Adam, and the Son of God fulfilling prophecy. And was speaking as man about the past as Christ God. (one of the Godhead) That of Psalms 1:7 + Acts 13:33 (I think?) & Heb. 1:5.

--Elijah

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I tend to take John 17 at face value. It is obviously the Son of God speaking. He is on earth so of course he is in human form. He is talking to his Father whom he calls God. He is making direct reference to a time they, God and Son, shared before the world was created. Thus it proves the Son of God, who came to earth and was called Christ, existed with the Father (who is God) before he became human.

Why do you used the term "Christ God" which is not used anywhere in scripture? The only time Christ is called God is by his own Father. But Christ himself tells us the true God is the Father and does not say I am God or call me God.

Is it not clear from scripture that Father and Son existed together before creation started (this does not mean Christ existed as long as his Father)? When creation started the Father created the world thru his Son. The Father, as was his plan, sent his Son to earth in a human body. While on earth Jesus, as he was called, said openly he was the Son of God. As the Son of God he proclaimed his Father the true God. Then Jesus died, rose in a new body, and then returned to his Father where he awaits his orders from his Father on when to return to earth.

It seems so simple and yet when you work any "theory" backwards it is hard to see the trees thru the forest.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

Gabriel said to CALL Mary's Baby "Jesus", "the Son of God", "the Son of the Most High".
(Gabriel did NOT say Mary's Baby WAS or IS the Son of God.)

If the word "call" is the reason for doubt then no worries. Plenty of other scriptures show that others, including the demons said of Jesus, "You are the Son of God...."

And of course Christ said this of himself....

John 10

35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ 36 why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world.

There are so many verses that state Jesus is the Son of God and is not just called the Son of God....I do not understand why this would be confusing.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[John Zain]

.
.
please see next post
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[John Zain]

John 17 and John 3

Dee, you are failing to comprehend sentence #1 in the OP:
The Word (the Logos) came from Heaven and became flesh (Jesus).

Jesus did not come down from Heaven to become flesh (Jesus).
The Son of God did not come down from Heaven to become flesh.
++++ IMO, unless and until someone is able to prove such. ++++

The Word (the Logos), the Second Person of the Triune Godhead,
shared glory with the Father before the world was, etc.

And don't forget that Jesus was BOTH "fully man and fully God"!
Sometimes He was talking as man, and sometimes He was talking as God!
An example:
When He was crying out, "Do I really have to be crucified?", He was talking as a man.

 

[Elijah674]

I think my point was that the beginning part of Prov 8 shows that Wisdom, the Son of God was the Son before creation began. The latter half of Prov 8 is speaking to future time when the gospel is presented to the earth and Christ is introduced as the path to life.

Since the point of this thread is to discuss when the Son of God originated, I have cited scriptures that show that the Son's beginning started prior to creation. Scriptures don't however, expand on how long before creation the Son had his start. Scriptures start with "In the beginning, God created..." We know that the Son was born before creation, the Son was present at creation and that God used the Son to create the world in which we live.

It would seem in error to suggest the Son only became the Son during his human birth, in light of the fact that the Father states his Son was with Him during creation.

Blessings,
Dee

Prov. gives Christ as the Son in the N.T.'s future prophecy even seen with mankind. (Prov. 8:31-32) The hang/up(?) with most of us is the Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse where the Godhead say the truth, but it has not been done as we see it yet.

Rom. 4:17 '.... even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not asthough they were. (such as Christ/God being the Son befor He actually was)
_____

Pro. 8
[30] Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
[31] Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

The PLAN of GOD.. God/Head is Immortal in Eternity! It needed one to become the Son/God/Man!
The PLAN is seen in Psalms 2:7, Heb. 1:1-5, Acts 13:33 + Luke 1
[30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
[32] He shall be great, and [[shall be called]] the [[Son of the Highest]]: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I tend to take John 17 at face value. It is obviously the Son of God speaking. He is on earth so of course he is in human form. He is talking to his Father whom he calls God. He is making direct reference to a time they, God and Son, shared before the world was created. Thus it proves the Son of God, who came to earth and was called Christ, existed with the Father (who is God) before he became human.

Why do you used the term "Christ God" which is not used anywhere in scripture? The only time Christ is called God is by his own Father. But Christ himself tells us the true God is the Father and does not say I am God or call me God.

Is it not clear from scripture that Father and Son existed together before creation started (this does not mean Christ existed as long as his Father)? When creation started the Father created the world thru his Son. The Father, as was his plan, sent his Son to earth in a human body. While on earth Jesus, as he was called, said openly he was the Son of God. As the Son of God he proclaimed his Father the true God. Then Jesus died, rose in a new body, and then returned to his Father where he awaits his orders from his Father on when to return to earth.

It seems so simple and yet when you work any "theory" backwards it is hard to see the trees thru the forest.

Blessings,
Dee

Hi, again! One reason that I say CHRIST/GOD is because that is the way that 'i' see it! We have some around here who teach that Christ became a Son by some 'MEANS' while in heaven??? ... and was a created angel. And that is not the way that I believe! OK?

--Elijah

 

[D4Christ]

Dee, you are failing to comprehend sentence #1 in the OP:
The Word (the Logos) came from Heaven and became flesh (Jesus).

Do you consider the Word that came from Heaven different than the Son of God? Do you also consider the Son of God different from Jesus?

I ask these questions because I am trying to understand your pov.

Jesus did not come down from Heaven to become flesh (Jesus).

The Son of God did not come down from Heaven to become flesh.
++++ IMO, unless and until someone is able to prove such. ++++

Jesus is the Son of God. He was named Jesus when he became human but scriptures are clear that he is the Son of God. Does it matter that his name became Jesus when he gave up his divine nature to become human like us for a little while?

And if the Son of God (who became aka Jesus) did not come from heaven to take on human form, then how do you reconcile this scripture?

Hebrews 2

14 Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. 15 Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.

16 We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. 18 Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested.

This is clearly talking about the Son of God and yet we know it is Jesus who died to take away our sins. So why is it difficult to understand that the Son existed in heaven with the Father before being sent in human form to die as the perfect sacrifice for humans? Of course he is no longer human but has risen and in his new body stands in a place of authority next to his Father.

The Word (the Logos), the Second Person of the Triune Godhead,

And therein lies part of the problem. Processing Christ thru the notion of a Triune Godhead. Do you know that Godhead only means "all that makes God, God." It is sometimes written as Godhood. Think about the word brotherhood - all that makes brothers brothers. It was never meant to mean 3 of any kind. Christ, aka Son of God is said to possess all that makes God, God in nature and character. No different than your own son or daughter possessing all that makes a human a human.

And don't forget that Jesus was BOTH "fully man and fully God"!

Sometimes He was talking as man, and sometimes He was talking as God!
An example:
When He was crying out, "Do I really have to be crucified?", He was talking as a man.

Of course Christ was fully God. God begot him as His Son. Similiar to the way we begot our own children who are fully human like ourselves.

But Christ never spoke as his Father...something no human would tolerate from their own children. Christ stated clearly that all he did was in obedience to his Father, the true God, his God and our God. He always calls his Father God and never takes credit for any task the Father gives him to do.

Show me where Christ claimed to be equal to his Father. Christ doesn't even tell us to pray to him....only to his Father.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Elijah674]

Two separate individuals seen here in Gen. with an image. So in Gen. we see that there are these TWO that created mankind in Their [IMAGE]. And angels are called by Inspiration, as 'ministering spirits'. Heb. 1:7) So these two are not angels nor are these two the Holy Spirit God. But GOD they BOTH ARE! For They said 'LET US' create man in our image. The [[US]] is talking to an equal!

And not only that, the THREE ARE THREE IMMORTAL ONES IN TOTAL UNITY! For They have INSPIRED to Eternity that THEY ONLY HAVE IMMORTALITY! 1 Tim. 6:15-16 + 1 Tim. 1:17. (no angels, nor man or other worlds but just the Father/God, Christ/God, and the Holy/Spirit or Holy Ghost God!!

And the Plan of SALVATION?? When John documented [[[THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST]]] it would be pure 'uneducated ignorance to think that the ETERNAL GOSPEL of Rev. 14:6 did not have him understanding what the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST meant!

They as in GODHEAD were to bring forth a Son/God. It is prophesied in Psalms 1:7 with David being Inspired to put it this way.. 'I WILL DECLARE THE DECREE,... THOU ART MY SON; [[THIS DAY]] HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE.'
(prophesied future!)

And in Acts 13:33 you can read this prophesy being a done deal! And in Heb. 1 Inspiration states...

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I [[will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?]]

And surely we can also attest to Their Eternal [[PLAN]] being eternally known as it was always known. Prov. 8:22 on! But stop & take note of this even telling us of Christ as a lad in prophecy in verse 29-**31! 'Rejoicing in the habitable part of the earth; [and my delights were with the sons of MEN.]'

And the Doctrine was well understood by John to include Eternity! For what did he pen in John 1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and [the Word was God].
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] [[All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.]]

[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
....
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It seems that anyone who believes in Christ's WORD from John on could readily grasp Paul even in 1 Cor. 14:32 simple Truth!
[32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
All of these had the SAME HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRING THEM OF THE PERFECT GODLY [EDUCATED] 'DOCTRINE OF CHRIST'. His Hermeneutics, not that of the Jer. 17:5 ones.

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

I believe Nebuchadnezzar saw "one like a son of gods" in the furnace (Daniel 3). There's a certain extension here for Neb's native religion, but the relevance seems to be clear: Neb could see the connection.

It appears your position is that the Word of God didn't become the Son of God until He was humanly incarnated, is that the intent? Yet the Word of God was God-with-God anyway, according to John 1:1.

Col 1:13-17 doesn't enforce the idea that the Son wasn't the Son before He was incarnated, either. The Son being the One through Whom all creation came about puts some kind of identity as the Son, from the point of the Creation. To me that's how John 1 reads as well, though I don't have any particular argument arising straight from the words there.

You sound ever so sincere!? So, why not try to define how an eternal Immortal Son came by an eternal Immortal God Jehovah??? (with our definition of us being created in Their Image with male or female daughters + SONS???) And Immortal means what, along with the word Son?

--Elijah

 

[cupid dave]

The fault with a few of ones postings as 'i' see it, lies in the fact of.. when did Christ/God become the Son & then have God/Jehovah/Father, as His Father?

Jesus was merely the son-of-man, as we are told that he came eating and drinking, a winebibber and a glutton.
He became the son-of-God when the spirit of God came down as if a dove, alighted upon his shoulder and transfigured him as the Father's own words were heard saying, "This is my son."

Matt 3:15-16

 

[D4Christ]

Two separate individuals seen here in Gen. with an image. So in Gen. we see that there are these TWO that created mankind in Their [IMAGE]. And angels are called by Inspiration, as 'ministering spirits'. Heb. 1:7) So these two are not angels nor are these two the Holy Spirit God. But GOD they BOTH ARE! For They said 'LET US' create man in our image. The [[US]] is talking to an equal!

I agree there are two separate individuals in Gen 1. I agree that the two created mankind. I agree that they are both divine in nature....their nature being God. The two present in Genesis is none other than the Father and His Son. The Father used the Son to create the world we see and everything in it. Then "God" (YHWH) in Hebrew said to his Son, "Let us make..." and the rest is history.

This Son came into the world to save it, which was the Father's plan from the very beginning. We know the Son existed with the Father (before creation) and was sent into the world to become Jesus in human form. That is why scriptures state:

John 1

10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
14 So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

Also, if we are to believe scriptures, then Father and Son cannot be equal even thougth they created the world together. For only the Father had the authority to create the world and he did it thru his Son. From Prov we know the Son was the architect by God's side. Being equal in nature does not make the Father and Son equal in authority, position or rank. That's why the Son says openly that he is not greater than the one who sent him. Will we deny the scriptures which so plainly state this?

1 Cor 15

26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.†(Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,†that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

God uses examples we can understand. He uses the Father - Son relationship because it is something we experience in our own families. Men produce sons, who are equal in nature to their fathers. That nature being human. But no son can outrank his father in authority. So it is with God the Father and his Son. Though they equally share the nature of God, only the Father assumes the rank that goes with God. Which is why the son calls the Father his God and our God.

Can we deny that the Son says this??? How can one god in a triunity of so-called equal gods outrank each other where one member of the triune calls another member his god?

They as in GODHEAD were to bring forth a Son/God. It is prophesied in Psalms 1:7 with David being Inspired to put it this way.. 'I WILL DECLARE THE DECREE,... THOU ART MY SON; [[THIS DAY]] HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE.'
(prophesied future!)

It seems like you are stating that God the Father, god the Son and god the Holy Spirit - three beings- brought forth a Son, Jesus.

I have to disagree. First with the notion of a triune god and secondly with the notion that the Son only became so at his birth. If that be the case then John 1 is a lie. How can you come into the world you created if you only came to be at your human birth?

Colossians 1

15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.

Why didn't Col 1 just say Christ was God...perfect opportunity to do so. Why call him an image?

Blessings,
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

Jesus was merely the son-of-man, as we are told that he came eating and drinking, a winebibber and a glutton.
He became the son-of-God when the spirit of God came down as if a dove, alighted upon his shoulder and transfigured him as the Father's own words were heard saying, "This is my son."

Matt 3:15-16

This is so in contrast to the scriptures it's scary. Are you aware of John 3 verses 22-31. Jesus was on on side of the river baptizing and John and his people were on the other side baptizing. John's people asked him why he other guy, Jesus, whom he [John] identified as the Messiah was baptizing. This is John's response:

31 “He has come from above and is greater than anyone else. We are of the earth, and we speak of earthly things, but he has come from heaven and is greater than anyone else. 32 He testifies about what he has seen and heard, but how few believe what he tells them! 33 Anyone who accepts his testimony can affirm that God is true. 34 For he is sent by God. He speaks God’s words, for God gives him the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. 36 And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.â€

How could Jesus, aka the Son of God testify about things in heaven that he saw and heard if he only became the Son at his baptism. Don't tell me he had a past life experience. :eeeekkk

Blessings,
Dee