The Son of God started when?

[John Zain]

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The Word (Logos) [Second Person of the Trinity] was sent by the Father, and became flesh.

At this time, this ONE born of Mary began being CALLED "Jesus" and "the Son of God",
as per the instructions of Gabriel (Luke 1:31-35).

When Jesus was on earth, was the Word (Logos) NO longer allowed to speak?

When Jesus said, "Gee, I was with Father (and shared His glory) for the last trillion years!"
... why cannot this actually be the Word (Logos) talking?

When Jesus walked the earth, the "fully God" part of Him was NOT Jesus, it was the Word (Logos) ... because it was the Word (Logos) who became Jesus in da foist place.

I just don't see an eternal Jesus coming down to earth and becoming flesh (Jesus).
No, the Word (Logos) came down and became flesh (Jesus).

I see "Jesus" and "the Son of God" as being only names/titles.

But, after the Word (Logos) was given these 2 additional names,
it was kosher to say they were equivalent to Him, i.e. meant the same as Him
... on earth, and then later in Heaven (including now).

After Jesus' birth, as far as names/titles go ... the Word (Logos) = Jesus = the Son of God

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[John Zain]

Do you consider the Word that came from Heaven different than the Son of God?
Do you also consider the Son of God different from Jesus?
--- etc. ---

I never have had any trouble with anything concerning the Trinity.
It's just about who had which names/titles when.

So far, in my travels, no one can come up with any definitive Scriptures which prove:
"Jesus" per say was eternal prior to Jesus' birth.
"The Son of God" per say was eternal prior to Jesus' birth.

Please see my explanation in post #41.

 

[Elijah674]

This is so in contrast to the scriptures it's scary. Are you aware of John 3 verses 22-31. Jesus was on on side of the river baptizing and John and his people were on the other side baptizing. John's people asked him why he other guy, Jesus, whom he [John] identified as the Messiah was baptizing. This is John's response:



How could Jesus, aka the Son of God testify about things in heaven that he saw and heard if he only became the Son at his baptism. Don't tell me he had a past life experience. :eeeekkk

Blessings,
Dee

________________

You seem to read & then comes this?? Yes, the Godhead DOCUMENTED that they are ALL IMMORTAL with an Imortal PAST/ETERNAL/LIFE! It has been said that Christ/as/God of the Godhead was in Eternity. And that the Godhead's THREE had this [[PLAN]] come into being if needed & when needed. (got that so far??) OK: Right or wrong, the question had been answered!!

The Christ/Jesus/man /God knew eternity well! But 'i' can see that your post & :eeeekkk such, is starting to sound like 2 Cor. 4:2 or perhaps Titus 3:9-11 with me being the vain one? Whatever?? But that was not the purpose of my thread.:verysad:bigcry

--Elijah

 

[D4Christ]

The Christ/Jesus/man /God knew eternity well! But 'i' can see that your post & :eeeekkk such, is starting to sound like 2 Cor. 4:2 or perhaps Titus 3:9-11 with me being the vain one? Whatever?? But that was not the purpose of my thread.:verysad:bigcry

--Elijah

I thought we were exchanging ideas about when the Son of God started. I didn't know I was required to have bobble head responses.

Point taken....I'll let you get on with the purpose of your thread.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Elijah674]

The Book of 2 John
Chapter 1

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Elijah here:
Just some material on this extremely important subject.

Inspiration of John is Eternally Inspired & documented. (Eccl. 3:14, Rev. 22:18-19) ) The Books of John are seen scattered all through the New Testament. And he has penned John 1:1-3 that Christ is God. And we know that the Godhead are Immortal! So to have any 'Doctrine of Christ', it must include Eternity! And surely takes in the later created beings of other 'World' of Hebrews 1:1-3 & Hebrews 11:3.

Now, who understands the Doctrine of Christ?? Surely, but few!

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Adam was the very first one for Earths beginning! And God spoke to him in verbal language. Got that? At least the 'earth' were ALL of one Language & had direct speech with God.

Gen. 11:1 'And the whole earth was of ONE LANGUAGE, AND [ONE SPEECH.]' And books? who needed books?? Speech?.. words were passed from one to another nearly flawless for these first ones. They were created VERY GOOD, even lived to around 1000 years of age even after sin & before the world flood. And the Doctrine of Christ without law? No such thing! 1 John 3:4

The Eternal Covenant of the Godhead is just that! Hebrews 13:20. God does not change, not does Their Covenant that the universe is governed by! God is Love. And the Covenant is the Epistle ('Letter' of 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 & Hebrews 10:15-16) of the Eternal Love of the Godhead to the universe. It is the only portion of the Doctrine of Christ that is directly given to 'mankind'. Isaiah 8:20 is mankind’s total testing of any and all professions! This is all inclusive with the 'Doctrine of Christ. Compare John's Words of 1 John 2:4 for verification!! (emphasis on mankind! See Revelation 11:18-19 & Revelation 22:7-9 & compare Ecclesiastes 3:14)

The two tables of stone governing Eternity is Total freedom when Obeyed. Christ stated an all time truth to the tempting attorney one of Matthew 22:35-40. This is the Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6 & Hebrews 13:20) and Christ's Eternal Covenant Doctrine, PERIOD! 'On these [two] commandments hang all the law and the prophets'

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

How can one know the Doctrine of Jesus when they deny that He is God? It is not possible! See Matthew 4:4's 'Every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.' This is surely a large requirement into the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST!! And the 2 Timothy 3:16's All Scripture for Doctrine verse! Who was Christ in Eternities time, before His earthly comfirmation birth here on earth? This must be included in John's above & beneath Eternal Inspiration penmanship!!

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(This subject requires the Holy Spirit's Leading! Romans 8:14. One best take His 'Striving' advise (Genesis 6:3) rather than to make shipwreck in 'selfs' Vain deceit. Titus 3:9-11. Surely this is His WARNING to us!? There will never be UNITY until mankind can surrender Vain self! OR 'OBEY' the below verses!! See Acts 5:32. Yes, that too is the Doctrine Of Christ!)

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

John gives the answer, of course. The WORD - who was WITH God, and WAS God became flesh, and dwelled among us. So Obviously Jesus, God's SON came into existence with His conception, whereas the Word (who became flesh) was eternal.

Simple as that.

And, of course, while there are any number of "Theories" about Jesus' nature, and composition - it will simply continue to be an "Unknowable" - just like the "Godhead" Himself.

How did you come up with that?:yes I did another post a while back which indicates that we have a hard time with what happened before Adam sinned & then what happened after Adam sinned. (and Godhead also is seen in there!)

But It seems hard for most to understand that the Godhead as a United Godhead would bring Their PLAN forward 'needing' a Son/Man. Which required 'humanity' as was Adam? Also we find God calling things because they were known fact before they were fact! Rom. 4:17 And this was done with Christ the Son as in Eternity. Unless there is somehow another meaning to the word of how a son could come about in our male/female terminology.

Anyway, thanks for your posting!

--Elijah

PS: And John Zain, post 32 is also very good..thanks!

 

[heymikey80]

You sound ever so sincere!? So, why not try to define how an eternal Immortal Son came by an eternal Immortal God Jehovah??? (with our definition of us being created in Their Image with male or female daughters + SONS???) And Immortal means what, along with the word Son?

--Elijah

Eternal relationships being what they are, I don't think I need more than to describe the relationships in the Eternal God as being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

As Christ is the same yesterday, today, forever, the alpha and omega, and the Word of God is both God and enfleshed among us, again, the relationship is what's being presented as to God the Son: not origination. God in three Persons.

 

[Elijah674]

Eternal relationships being what they are, I don't think I need more than to describe the relationships in the Eternal God as being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

As Christ is the same yesterday, today, forever, the alpha and omega, and the Word of God is both God and enfleshed among us, again, the relationship is what's being presented as to God the Son: not origination. God in three Persons.

I realize that we all grow & mature differently. Slow on some things & speedier on others. We see thing differently in all stages of growth perhaps? I was just wondering of 1 Peter 3:15 '..be ready always to give an answer..' verse. And you did do that

Anyway, over in 2 John 1:9-10 is where I kind of was asking about. And I realize that the verse means nothing to most Christians today perhaps? But before it is all finished & done, 'i' think that it must.

[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

John was around the longest & wrote much of the Bible. So surely he understood the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. And according to 2 Tim. 3:16-17's pen, doctrine is very important to being perfect IN the faith of Christ. Heb. 11:13.

--Elijah

 

[John Zain]

The Word (Logos) was God, and He was with Father God from the beginning … John 1:1.
The Word (Logos) came down to earth and became flesh (Jesus) … John 1:14.
IMO, the Word (Logos) was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Gabriel instructed: “that Holy One who is to be bornâ€
will be CALLED "Jesus" and "the Son of God" … Luke 1:31,35.

So, from Jesus’ birth onwards … the Word (Logos) = Jesus = the Son of God

The point is …
Both of these NAMES: "Jesus" and "the Son of God" originated at the time of Jesus’ birth.
These NAMES were not used before Jesus’ birth, i.e. no Scriptures prove that they were.

But, it certainly IS Scriptural to say that Jesus, the Son of God, is in Heaven now.

 

[John O]

There seems to be some confusion over who Jesus is within this thread. According to John 1:1
the Word was God and the Word was with God. In V14 the Word became Flesh (man) and the Son of God became the Son of Man (Jesus). Jesus and the Son of God are the same person.

It is written that Jesus considered Himself equal with God (He of course is God) Philippians 2v6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. The word form means "to be the same substance or consistency of" . Jesus was the same as God and yet He chose so that we could be reconciled with God and become come sons of God to lay down all His Godly attributes (authority and powers) and be submitted to His Father. He would only use His attributes
when instructed by the Father.

In Deuteronomy we see that 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: The word
one is the Hebrew word echad (pronounced ekh-awd) and it means "properly united, It is used with another, to denote mutuality or reciprocation, Single by union; undivided; the same, at one, in union; in agreement or concord."

The Bible was given by God to a people He Chose and that people were the Hebrews and the Bible is in their language and includes their culture and customs. When Jesus shares in the New Testament He was speaking to a Hebrew audience and therefore never had to explain the background to the insights He shared because they grew up in that culture and knew exactly what He was saying.

We who are from western cultures miss many things that the Bible and Jesus shared because we were not aware of the background to the comments made and can so easily get a completely different meaning than what Jesus intended or miss issues He was addressing because the context means nothing to us in our modern settings.


A question to finish with : If Jesus is not God then what do we believe in ? If He is not God then there is no redemption from sin and reconciliation with God ie there is no salvation for us.

 

[heymikey80]

I realize that we all grow & mature differently. Slow on some things & speedier on others. We see thing differently in all stages of growth perhaps? I was just wondering of 1 Peter 3:15 '..be ready always to give an answer..' verse. And you did do that

Anyway, over in 2 John 1:9-10 is where I kind of was asking about. And I realize that the verse means nothing to most Christians today perhaps? But before it is all finished & done, 'i' think that it must.

[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

John was around the longest & wrote much of the Bible. So surely he understood the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. And according to 2 Tim. 3:16-17's pen, doctrine is very important to being perfect IN the faith of Christ. Heb. 11:13.

--Elijah

I'll be honest with you, the first thing I thought of when you mentioned 2 John :9-10 was 1 John 1:1-4. I think that's a succinct description of what John means by this doctrine -- that the God from the beginning came to us incarnate, and His life and death change everything.

There is something that changes very profoundly concerning the revelation of God the Son in the Incarnation. I think on that we both agree. It's a big change for us. I'm not so sure from the other side, from God's point of view, that it's very different for Him.

 

[Elijah674]

I'll be honest with you, the first thing I thought of when you mentioned 2 John :9-10 was 1 John 1:1-4. I think that's a succinct description of what John means by this doctrine -- that the God from the beginning came to us incarnate, and His life and death change everything.

There is something that changes very profoundly concerning the revelation of God the Son in the Incarnation. I think on that we both agree. It's a big change for us. I'm not so sure from the other side, from God's point of view, that it's very different for Him.

If you can always just skip the Jer. 17:5 ones that we had & still do have the Rev. 17:1-5 ones all messed up, and can understand what Inspiration has [[DOCUMENTED]] in Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse, then we can know why most do not inderstand the Doctrine of Christ. The verse needs no context, for it states exactly what God can do & does do! It reminds one of Rev. 14:6 as the ETERNAL GOSPEL! (everlasting)

Here is the Rom. 4 verse in part...
'.... before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

And God had done this in the Planed Eternal God/Christ/Son. And this is just is one reason for the mess of only believe & OSAS.

--Elijah

 

[John Zain]

There seems to be some confusion over who Jesus is within this thread.

There seems to be some confusion (among many) over
what the simple English words in this thread are saying.
There is an option available for those who are confused,
which is to go back to square one and start your schooling all over again.

 

[elijah23]

The fault with a few of ones postings as 'i' see it, lies in the fact of.. when did Christ/God become the Son & then have God/Jehovah/Father, as His Father? And sure. Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse can be stated by Them, but how about in actual fullfillment for us?

It is prophesied in Psalms 2:7 & in Acts 13:32-33 that it was a prophecy promise! And in Heb. 1:3-5 we see that it had occured in the past/tense.

Proverbs has it as a PLAN Prophesied from Eternity by the Godhead. Ibid 31 even has it seen in for/knowledge when Christ was.. 'as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing ... rejoicing in the [habitable part of the earth and my delights were with the sons of men.]'

Psalms 2
[7] I [[will declare the decree: ]] the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (OK: Prophesied!)

Acts 13

[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

And Heb. 1

[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (also note that we see two seen in heaven here!)

[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (speaking as of after the fact!)

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And, when did Christ/God [become the Son??] At His birth! Matt. 1:23

--Elijah

I believe the Son of God is God in flesh. He therefore has always existed.

 

[heymikey80]

If you can always just skip the Jer. 17:5 ones that we had & still do have the Rev. 17:1-5 ones all messed up, and can understand what Inspiration has [[DOCUMENTED]] in Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse, then we can know why most do not inderstand the Doctrine of Christ. The verse needs no context, for it states exactly what God can do & does do! It reminds one of Rev. 14:6 as the ETERNAL GOSPEL! (everlasting)

Here is the Rom. 4 verse in part...
'.... before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

And God had done this in the Planed Eternal God/Christ/Son. And this is just is one reason for the mess of only believe & OSAS.

--Elijah

I don't really see any of these as references to Christ's nature, the context doesn't indicate anything of that sort. So I can hold to those verses in the sense anc context they were written to, without demanding they apply generally across every point of existence.