Bible Study The sons of God and daughters of men?

[chessman]

Since the kingdoms of this world are still here, we certainly know that this scripture has not yet been fulfilled.

Well at least you're talking about the Biblical elements of the Text versus 'co-mingling genes' or 'different species' or 'angels' having sex with women. Progress, no doubt.

A simple Bible study of the rest of Daniel proves these "kingdoms" (gold, silver, bronze, and the last iron/clay mixture) have indeed been crushed and are no longer:

Daniel 8:1, 21-23 In the third year of the kingdom of Belshazzar the king, a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after the one that appeared to me previously. ​

"The one that appeared to me previously" is his previous vision about the "kingdoms" of gold, silver, bronze and the iron/clay mixture from Chapter 2. Where he specifically says (because God told him so) that the gold kingdom is Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom (Babylon).

Daniel 2:37-38 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power and the might and the glory, and also human beings wherever they dwell, the animals of the field and the birds of heaven—he has given into your hand and made you ruler over all of them—you are the head of gold.​

Is Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom still around, on your view?

Daniel records the end of these kingdoms (the iron/clay) with the following:

And at the end of their kingdom, when the transgressions are completed, a king will arise, fierce in countenance and skilled in riddles.​

Has Jesus (who was skilled in riddles when speaking to the Jewish rulers of His day that mingled with the Romans in Jerusalem (though they really didn't mix very well together) in order to put Him to death (on a Roman cross labeled "king of the Jews") RISEN, on your view?

 

[Edward]

I just had a sobering thought. What if God, was going to give everyone (the believers)...a chance to be little David and face goliath of some form.
As it was in the days of Noah shall be again huh? I bet the govt has transhumans already made and waiting. Prolly some weird creatures too. It got out that they think they can orchestrate an false flag Alien invasion. They will not be trustworthy, they are demonic Aliens.

and the last thing they will want to run into is you (me)is a Spirit filled believer. Full of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation will be a dangerous Brother. But don't be confused, I would die. It's not me, it's the Lord. It is the Lord. Stay little and carry a big God!

No wonder Paul said I am a man born out of season. This is going to be exciting.

 

[Edward]

I just had a sobering thought. What if God, was going to give everyone (the believers)...a chance to be little David and face goliath of some form.
As it was in the days of Noah shall be again huh? I bet the govt has transhumans already made and waiting. Prolly some weird creatures too. It got out that they think they can orchestrate an false flag Alien invasion. They will not be trustworthy, they are demonic Aliens.

and the last thing they will want to run into is you (me)is a Spirit filled believer. Full of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation will be a dangerous Brother. But don't be confused, I would die. It's not me, it's the Lord. It is the Lord. Stay little and carry a big God!

No wonder Paul said I am a man born out of season. This is going to be exciting.

That's what Psalm 91 is all about too. It makes too much sense Brothers and Sisters. I get the feeling this is no game. Psalm 91 is very specific and clear. It makes an excellent prayer, to pray over your life.

 

[chessman]

If you wanna' get technical, it's not only a pronoun, but a possessive pronoun.

Technically, there is no pronoun at all in the Hebrew Text, as I said. Look it up for yourself:

http://biblehub.com/text/daniel/2-43.htm

Besides, where's the action in "they"?

The Hebrew Text simply has the verbs and nouns, no personal pronouns in it at all.

Besides, where's the action in "they"? The action is in "Mingle" They will "mingle".

Yes, they (the clay and iron which were the two kingdoms ruling Jerusalem when The King Jesus came) mingled. But the Hebrew Text doesn't have "they" in it. Go check it out. And even if it did (which it doesn't) it's not a pronoun that indicates "they" were anything other than what God told Daniel they were (kingdoms).

Did you see the rubble of the twin towers' mingle together when they were destroyed?

Were the twin towers "persons" or buildings?

it's not only a pronoun, but a possessive pronoun.

No it's not. Pronouns like: her/his/your are possessive pronouns, not "they".

Your car's on fire! (That's a possessive pronoun)
Versus
The twin towers, they were on fire before they were destroyed. (That's not a possessive pronoun).

English was my best subject. It what poor men do...read.

So how were you at writing and arithmetics?

 

[Edward]

Technically, there is no pronoun at all in the Hebrew Text, as I said. Look it up for yourself:

http://biblehub.com/text/daniel/2-43.htm


The Hebrew Text simply has the verbs and nouns, no personal pronouns in it at all.



Yes, they (the clay and iron which were the two kingdoms ruling Jerusalem when The King Jesus came) mingled. But the Hebrew Text doesn't have "they" in it. Go check it out. And even if it did (which it doesn't) it's not a pronoun that indicates "they" were anything other than what God told Daniel they were (kingdoms).

Did you see the rubble of the twin towers' mingle together when they were destroyed?

Were the twin towers "persons" or buildings?


No it's not. Pronouns like: her/his/your are possessive pronouns, not "they".

Your car's on fire! (That's a possessive pronoun)
Versus
The twin towers, they were on fire before they were destroyed. (That's not a possessive pronoun).


So how were you at writing and arithmetics?

Wow chessman, that's some long post to refute a single verse from the word of God. No "They" there in the Hebrew, huh? You are correct there sir, I looked it up. Why didn't you say what IS there instead of just that "they" is not there? Ok so. Hebrew is an efficient language. There's no translation for "they"....there is a single Hebrew word which translates into "they shall mingle themselves". (Now that's efficiency!) It's H1934 go ahead and look it up for yourselves.

What it takes to translate a single four letter word out of Hebrew takes 25 letters and four words to translate into the inefficient English language! But the thing is though, that even in the Hebrew...it doesn't change the meaning of the translation one whit! It says the same thing. Well, actually it's Aramaic.

I gotta admit, Brother. This is a new and novel way to try to refute the Angel view of Genesis 6. Usually it's that line of Seth garbage. You sort've remind me of myself also (about ten years ago!) when I first heard Chuck Missler talk on this subject and thought chuck, what happened? Lol.

The Angel view was widely accepted and taught by churches and biblical scholars up to about the 5th century. (that's a long time!)
Only then did they become uncomfortable with it and so cooked up a lie about Seth. They knew that sometime in the future they would tell The Lie, and afterward, the event...and the Angel view just wouldn't let that happen! So they had to get rid of it.

Ask yourself...what IF it were true?

Nice try though. Very creative. Have a blessed day in our Lord Jesus Brother. Certainly pray about this.

 

[JLB]

Easy:

Genesis 6:9-10, 18 Genesis 7:1 Genesis 8:18, 20 Then Yahweh said to Noah, “Go—you and all your household—into the ark, for I have seen you are righteous before me in this generation. These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, without defect in his generations. Noah walked with God. And Noah fathered three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And I will establish my covenant with you, and you must go into the ark—you, and your sons, and your wife, and the wives of your sons with you. So Noah went out, with his sons and his wife, and the wives of his sons with him. And Noah built an altar to Yahweh, and he took from all the clean animals and from all the clean birds, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

By quoting this scripture, you are saying Noah and his sons were the sons of God that were having sex with all these daughters of men, ungodly women who were not his wives as daughters of God, and produced enough giants to wreak havoc on earth so God flooded the earth, then Noah and his sons continued to have sex with who? All the daughters of men were wiped out.


That doesn't sound very godly! 2


Everyone was wiped out, the only females left were their wives that were on the boat.

How could Noah and his sons have sex with enough women to fill the promise land with the giants the children of Israel drove out.

It was Noah and his family that populated the earth after the flood.

A son of God is not created through natural birth, they must be born again. Not just born of the flesh, but born again.

• Why don't born again people produce Nephilim giants today?

• Why did God want the slaughtered and driven out of the promise land?

• Why would God want godly offspring slaughtered?

Again Chessman, here is the genealogy of Noah and his sons, with no sons of God or giants mentioned.

Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.
Genesis 10:1-5


Sons of God is an old testament term for angels. Not humans before Christ.

Again, here are the scriptures that refer to angels as sons of God.

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

• Peter also refers to these sons of God as angels, referring to the time of Noah.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4

and again

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1 Peter 3:19-20



6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6


7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7


nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:36

• The only way for a human to become a son of God is to be born again; Born of the Spirit.

Male human beings are called sons of men.

Help, Lord, for the godly man ceases,
For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
Psalm 12:1


Their offspring You shall destroy from the earth,
And their descendants from among the sons of men.
Psalm 21:10


The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men.
Psalm 33:13


Come and see the works of God;
He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men.
Psalms 66:5


Female human beings are called the daughters of men.

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. Genesis 6:1-2

• when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them
• that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves

Please show us a scripture from the old testament, that refers to an offspring of Adam as a son of God.



JLB

 

[chessman]

I gotta admit, Brother. This is a new and novel way to try to refute the Angel view of Genesis 6.

Angels are not mentioned in Genesis 6. That 'view' is easy to refute because it's simply not in the Text (directly or implied). Poof, short enough?

Wow chessman, that's some long post to refute a single verse from the word of God.

Umm, I'm not refuting the verse, I'm refuting your 'view' that it's talking about angels having sex with women. Not even JLB thinks Daniel 2 is about angel sex (whatever that is). p.s. Your reply was longer than my post you quoted and didn't even mention a single verse of Scripture. In fact, ... nevermind (self edit)

The Text you brought into the conversation from Daniel 2 is about the rise and fall of the kingdoms oppressing God's sons and daughters starting about 600 B.C. and ending at the resurrection of Christ (the real King of His people). It has zero to do with the pre-flood population growth of humankind discussed in Gen 6.

Why didn't you say what IS there instead of just that "they" is not there?

I did. I'll underline it for you.

there is no personal pronoun in the Hebrew Text of v43.

It's a verb, that just means mixed/combined. It has zero "personal" connotation to it in Hebrew or English.

Ask yourself...what IF it were true?

Okay here goes:

Genesis 6:2 Then ____?_____ saw the daughters of humankind, that they were beautiful. And they took for themselves wives from all that they chose.​

Q: Chess, what if it were angels who were having sex with women and producing offspring that were extremely tall men in Genesis 6:2?

Well, I'm glad you asked me that Chess here are some of the problems I see with that angels being what goes in the blank:

A1: If it were true, that angels were having sex with daughters in Genesis 6:2: then Moses should have told us that angels of God saw the daughter's beauty and took them as prostitutes instead of telling us that humankind (males and females) began to multiply by takiing "wives" (plural).

Genesis 6:1 And it happened that, when humankind began to multiply on the face of the ground, daughters were born to them.​

Ask yourself were daughters born to angels or were they born to humankind as the Text says?

2. Chess, what if angels were having sex with women and producing offspring that were extremely tall men in Genesis 6 and after the flood?

If it were true, that angels were the sons of God that were having sex with women (rather than sons of God as it says) in Genesis 6:2, then why did God limit the lifespan of sons to 120 years?

Genesis 6:3 And Yahweh said, “My Spirit shall not abide with humankind forever in that he is also flesh. And his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” ​

Ask yourself does it make more sense that God's Spirit was abiding with men (male flesh + God's spirit which is exactly what Adam was, a son of God) for 120 years or was God's Spirit abiding with angels for 120 years?

And that's just two problems with your view. There's dozens more:

How tall are you? How do you know you (or Jesus for that matter) are not an offspring of angel sex???

But the bottom line is clear. No Text says angels have sex with women an produce gaints.

 

[JLB]

Angels are not mentioned in Genesis 6. That 'view' is easy to refute because it's simply not in the Text (directly or implied). Poof, short enough?

Yes it's easy to refute the position that human beings produced Nephilim giants, since there were no sons of God from the offspring of Adam, whose one act of disobedience brought death upon all mankind.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12


Your claim that sons of God were in the line of Adam is not found in scripture.


Sons of God in the old testament, before Christ, were a reference to angels, as I have provided the scriptures to show.


6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6


7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7


nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:36

• The only way for a human to become a son of God is to be born again; Born of the Spirit.

The new testament also reveals that it was angels during the time of Noah, not men, who were disobedient and left their own abode and had relations with women.

• Peter also refers to these sons of God as angels, referring to the time of Noah.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4

and again

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1 Peter 3:19-20


In addition, Jude warns that those who God saved, were later destroyed just like these angels who left their own abode.


5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 5-6

The Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

This means your position that those who were sons of God in the old testament, lost their salvation and were destroyed by God, just as the angels who are sons of God were cast down to hell.


Thank you for refuting OSAS.


And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Jude associates these angels with those :sons of God" who claim were "born again" before Christ.



JLB

 

[chessman]

By quoting this scripture, you are saying Noah and his sons were the sons of God that were having sex with all these daughters of men,

Gen 6:1 And it happened that, when humankind began to multiply on the face of the ground, daughters were born to them.​

Does the Text say that humankind began to multiply or that angels and humans were having sex?

God flooded the earth, then Noah and his sons continued to have sex with who?

Their wives.

That doesn't sound very godly!

Okay. So? They weren't God, the were humankind made in the image of Adam.

Gen 8:21a And Yahweh smelled the soothing fragrance, and Yahweh said to himself, “Never again will I curse the ground for the sake of humankind, because the inclination of the heart of humankind is evil from his youth.​

Are you of the opinion that sons of God are righteous from their youth? Take Adam (a son of God) for example. Was he entirely righteous from his youth or did he participate in evil at times?

the only females left were their wives that were on the boat.

Correct. So? Are you familiar with the first son of God wife's evil or do I need to post it?

How could Noah and his sons have sex with enough women to fill the promise land with the giants the children of Israel drove out.

Multiplication. (But with restrictions on who/what to have sex with). You can't just take all the 'wives' you think are beautiful and have sex with them or men having sex with men or women having sex with women or women having sex with animals (pre-flood or post-flood). Breaking God's commandments have consequences.

Genesis 9:1, 7 (LEB) And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 7 “And you, be fruitful and multiply, swarm on the earth and multiply in it.” (which is a command but not a license to sin against His previous command)

Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cling to his wife (singular, other people's wives), and they shall be as one flesh (not as multiple kinds of flesh).

Leviticus 18:20 (LEB) And you must not have sex with your fellow citizen’s wife, becoming unclean with her.​

Why don't born again people produce Nephilim giants today?

Who says giants are not produced today. They are.
Nephilim, however, were a particular people living in a particular land (Hebron). Hebron was a descendant of Amram. Amram took his aunt for himself as a wife, and she bore for him (as descendants) Aaron and Moses.

Why did God want the slaughtered and driven out of the promise land?

Because they were practicing all kinds of evils.

Why would God want godly offspring slaughtered?

What verse are you referring to?

Sons of God is an old testament term for angels.

No it's not. Else, you could post a Scripture that says so.
Repeated questions you've not answered relative to your opinion here: Was Adam an angel? Was Adam a son of God?

Not humans before Christ.

Umm, there is no 'before Christ'. Jesus Christ is eternal and active in the OT and NT.

Again, here are the scriptures that refer to angels as sons of God.

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

Bolding the phrase "the sons of God" doesn't miraculously turn into saying (or meaning) angels. Repeatedly claiming it means angels 1,000 times, is not going to make it true.

• Peter also refers to these sons of God as angels, referring to the time of Noah.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4

Again, Peter does NOT refer to the angels who sinned as 'sons of God" here. These angels were angels cast down to Hell (not on Earth) and delivered into chains.

Is your opinion that they were cast on the surface of the Earth and free to have sex with women? Regardless if you continue to fail to answer this question, this verse DOES NOT say the sons of God were angels (nor does any other verse).

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1 Peter 3:19-20

Yes, the spirits were in prison (in Hell, in chains of darkness), not free to have sex with women. Excellent point.

Another question relative to this passage you've failed to answer: Do you think angels are sons of the resurrection?

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6

Yes. That day was when the man Job (a righteous man, not an angel) and his seven sons were sanctified before the Lord at Job's house in the land of Uz. Excellent point and proof positive that the sons of God are NOT angels (that is, unless you can show that Job and his seven sons were angels).

Job 1:1There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright and God-fearing and turning away from evil. 2 And seven sons and three daughters were born to him.
1:5 Then when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send, and he would sanctify them.​

 

[JLB]

Gen 6:1 And it happened that, when humankind began to multiply on the face of the ground, daughters were born to them.
Does the Text say that humankind began to multiply or that angels and humans were having sex?

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, Genesis 6:1

Men began to multiply on the earth, not sons of God.

It plainly says daughters were born to men, not to God.

A son of God is a person or being that is born of God or created by God.


The daughters were born to men.

Case Closed.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Men began to multiply on the earth, not sons of God.

Correct. And some men were gaint men and some were short.

1 Chronicles 20:6 And again there was war in Gath. And there was a very tall man there, and he had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in all. He himself was also a descendant of the Rephaim. ​

And some were evil men and some were righteous men before the Lord such as Adam before he sinned or Job and his sanctifed sons who were led by the Spirit to offer burnt offerings before the Lord. Or righteous Noah and His household who were lead to enter the Ark, etc.

A son of God is a person or being that is born of God or created by God.

Are fish and birds and cattle "sons of God" within your view then?

A son of God is all those who are led by the Spirit of God, period.

Romans 8:14 For all those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.​

Where do you get this "or a being that is created by God" from? You mean like the first fish and first birds and first cows are sons of God??? Please provide Scripture to support this claim as I have to support mine.

 

[calvin]

Hello calvin here.
Ohh boy aint we got fun.

Yes it's easy to refute the position that human beings produced Nephilim giants, since there were no sons of God from the offspring of Adam, whose one act of disobedience brought death upon all mankind.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12


Your claim that sons of God were in the line of Adam is not found in scripture.

It is if you look for it. As I asked you to read before , I again ask you to read Psalm 82.....all of it.
But note v6. The people of Israel are called gods, sons of the most High.
Now if that is not plain enough that they are being called sons of God.....and if the Israelites are not of Adam's line then of whose line??

Sons of God in the old testament, before Christ, were a reference to angels, as I have provided the scriptures to show.


6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6


7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7


nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:36

• The only way for a human to become a son of God is to be born again; Born of the Spirit.

The new testament also reveals that it was angels during the time of Noah, not men, who were disobedient and left their own abode and had relations with women.

• Peter also refers to these sons of God as angels, referring to the time of Noah.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4\

Now is as good a time as any to put this nonsense to bed.
Nowhere does Peter accuse these angels of having relations with women...nowhere.
That is purely the product of eisegesis.
As you (hopefully) search 2Peter 2 for a mention of what these angels did that was wrong, please consider most carefully verse 11.

and again

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1 Peter 3:19-20

Well now we all do, or we all should believe that Scripture does not contradict itself.
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”
Eph 4:9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?Esv
So, the angels that sinned are being held over for judgment at the last day, so how could they (most) be brought up to the heavenlies with the triumphant Christ? Also, why would the Christ preach to a bunch of angels already held over for final justice?

In addition, Jude warns that those who God saved, were later destroyed just like these angels who left their own abode.

Ahh yes Jude warns.......and what exactly is he warning us about?
Jud 1:4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.Esv
Have you noticed BTW that the chronology of events mentioned by Jude and the chronology of those same events as listed by Peter are not the same?
This seems to indicate that chronology is not important here.
What is important is that God is able to rescue the godly and beat up the ungodly. Nothing whatsoever, zero, zilch about angels procreating with women.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 5-6

The Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

This means your position that those who were sons of God in the old testament, lost their salvation and were destroyed by God, just as the angels who are sons of God were cast down to hell.


Thank you for refuting OSAS.


And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Jude associates these angels with those :sons of God" who claim were "born again" before Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It is if you look for it. As I asked you to read before , I again ask you to read Psalm 82.....all of it.
But note v6. The people of Israel are called gods, sons of the most High.
Now if that is not plain enough that they are being called sons of God.....and if the Israelites are not of Adam's line then of whose line??

You get an "E" for effort in actually going to scripture.

Here is Psalm 82

God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
Psalm 82:1-8


Who is the Lord speaking to?

I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”


Whoever He is speaking to is not men, as He says... you shall die like men,

If I were were defending from your point of view I would quote Jesus, as He referred to those in the law.

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? John 10:34-36


Still the phrase bene elohim is not used in Psalm 82.

Taking 1 vague scripture to try and refute many scriptures that teach us otherwise is not sound.

sons of God in the old testament is a reference to angels -

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6


7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7


nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:36


A male human in the old testament is called a son of Man or sons of men.

“Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, Ezekiel 33:2


Help, Lord, for the godly man ceases,
For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
Psalm 12:1


Their offspring You shall destroy from the earth,
And their descendants from among the sons of men.
Psalm 21:10


The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men.
Psalm 33:13


Come and see the works of God;
He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men.
Psalms 66:5



JLB

 

[JLB]

Now is as good a time as any to put this nonsense to bed.

Yes it is.

The sons of God were not human and were unaffected by the flood, in which they continued after the flood to produce Nephilim giants which the children of Israel slaughtered at God's command and drove from the promised land, these ungodly 10' tall six fingered and six toed giants.

If your claim is that Noah populated the earth with Nephilim giants after the flood, then with who?

His granddaughters?

Noah had three sons listed in scripture:

No giants listed in the genealogy.

That about puts your theory to bed.!!!


Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan.

8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).

13 Mizraim begot Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, and Casluhim (from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim).

15 Canaan begot Sidon his firstborn, and Heth; 16 the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite; 17 the Hivite, the Arkite, and the Sinite; 18 the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. Afterward the families of the Canaanites were dispersed. 19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha. 20 These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands and in their nations.

21 And children were born also to Shem, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder. 22 The sons of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram. 23 The sons of Aram were Uz, Hul, Gether, and Mash. 24 Arphaxad begot Salah, and Salah begot Eber. 25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan. 26 Joktan begot Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29 Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. 30 And their dwelling place was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east. 31 These werethe sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands, according to their nations.

32 These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood. Genesis 10:1-32


JLB

 

[JLB]

As you (hopefully) search 2Peter 2 for a mention of what these angels did that was wrong, please consider most carefully verse 11.

Yes Peter called them angels, during the days of Noah, not sons of men.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5


and again

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1 Peter 3:19-20


and again


And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 6


Please explain why "godly men" would produce 10' tall nephilim giants, who were ungodly?


Makes zero sense.


JLB

 

[calvin]

You get an "E" for effort in actually going to scripture.

Here is Psalm 82

God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
Psalm 82:1-8


Who is the Lord speaking to?

I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”


Whoever He is speaking to is not men, as He says... you shall die like men,

If I were were defending from your point of view I would quote Jesus, as He referred to those in the law.

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? John 10:34-36


Still the phrase bene elohim is not used in Psalm 82.

Taking 1 vague scripture to try and refute many scriptures that teach us otherwise is not sound.

sons of God in the old testament is a reference to angels -

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6


7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7


nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:36


A male human in the old testament is called a son of Man or sons of men.

“Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, Ezekiel 33:2


Help, Lord, for the godly man ceases,
For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
Psalm 12:1


Their offspring You shall destroy from the earth,
And their descendants from among the sons of men.
Psalm 21:10


The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men.
Psalm 33:13


Come and see the works of God;
He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men.
Psalms 66:5



JLB

Hello JLB, calvin here.
You quoted John 10:34-36. which clearly identifies the Israelites as the focus of Psalm 82. Yet you seem determined to avoid the plain teaching in order to support your own faulty ideas.
It is clear, if not to you, then to most students of the Word that Jesus understood that Psa 82 was addressed to Israelite peoples not to angels or any other non human entities.
But from your posts I see that you seem to be hung up on words/phrases
The difference between son of God and son of man is not a genetic one; it is spiritual.
If guided by the Holy Spirit a person's activities show that God the Father is their Farther then they are or can be referred to as sons of God.
Rom 8:12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.Esv

However those who are not led by the Holy Spirit, or who are identifying with unsaved men are not the sons of God, but sons of man.
Such a case is when Jesus referred to Himself as 'son of man';
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.Esv.
So, Jesus is the 'son of man', yet out of the same gospel narrative.........
Joh 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Perhaps a study on the uses of 'son of man' and 'son of God' might be useful.

 

[calvin]

Hello again, calvin here...

Yes it is.

The sons of God were not human and were unaffected by the flood, in which they continued after the flood to produce Nephilim giants which the children of Israel slaughtered at God's command and drove from the promised land, these ungodly 10' tall six fingered and six toed giants.

If your claim is that Noah populated the earth with Nephilim giants after the flood, then with who?

Since that is not my claim the rest of your post seems to be of no real value.


Now then, your continued assertion that the sons of God are/were angels presupposes that it is an established Biblical truth.....sorry but it is not.
Consider your words here, and judge for yourself if you are justified in what you assert.

Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” Esv

Gen 6:12 And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
Gen 6:13 And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Esv
Now if it were God's intention to get rid of the evil that had overtaken not only mankind but also the entire list of animate life, why such a comprehensive 'hit list' and not at the same time include and deal with any hypothetical bad angels? Are you saying that though God intended to eradicate all trace of angelic/demonic influence, He failed?
Surely not! The flood was sufficient for God's purpose at that time for the cleansing creation.
But doesn't it ring any alarm bells for you that even with such a comprehensive 'hit list' neither 'sons of God' nor fallen angels are listed
If the sons of God were angels, then unless they were also removed the whole plan was shot. So too is your argument that somehow the bad seed escaped God's notice and started redoing their evil after the flood.
And lets face it...you want to use 2Pet and Jude to prove that the sons of God are fallen angels, yet they were imprisoned, so how could the carry on after the flood?
Your reasoning not mine.
So much for that. We need to get onto understanding who or what the Nephilim were.

 

[calvin]

Yes Peter called them angels, during the days of Noah, not sons of men.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5


and again

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1 Peter 3:19-20


and again


And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 6


Please explain why "godly men" would produce 10' tall nephilim giants, who were ungodly?


Makes zero sense.


JLB

You are right that it makes zero sense, when you insist on injecting your own ideas into the Scriptures (eisogesis).
As I pointed out to you and any other interested readers, there is no chronology taught in either 2 Peter or Jude. Chronology is not what either is about. For all any of us know these bad angels might have misbehaved long before Adam was even created, or they might have misbehaved long after Noah 's time.......we are simply not told.
And if a faulty assumption is used to build a case for something, the whole structure is faulty. So let us not jump to conclusions.
There is something undeniably strange about the first few verses of Gen 6, but we ought not rush in with fancy theories, especially ones based on a faulty interpretation of 2Pet2 and Jude. To reiterate, all these verses tell us about bad angels is that even they can not escape God's justice.......that is all and nothing more.
So what do we really know?
Firstly, we know that mankind began to increase with the continued activity of Adam and Eve, and their other sons and daughters. This we know because it is recorded in the early chapters of Genesis.
Next we know that at the time of Seth and his son Enosh people began to call on the name of the Lord. We are told this in Gen 4:24. No supposition here, no fanciful appeal to incorrect interpretation.
Next we can jump forward to Gen 6:1-2. No strict chronology here, however it would appear reasonable in the light of Rom 8:16. that these sons of God made there début when they first started to call on the name of the Lord;
Gen 4:24.
They would not call on the name of the Lord without the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
These are or seem to be specific to Jesus' time, but the principle is clear that our belief is not based on our own will, or the will of any man, rather on the will of God. It is therefore perfectly reasonable to understand that these 'sons of god' appeared as a result of God's will and calling, not a bunch of bad angels.
One of the attributes accorded to these 'sons of God' is that they we pioneers and remember that they go back to the time of Seth, so they were indeed mighty men of old.
What can we or should we make of Gen 6:4 ; The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
It is or at least it should be clear that the children born, were the children of the sons of God, not the Nephilim, These mighty men of old are not the Nephilim, but the sons of God, they are the mighty men, the men of renown; remember the primary meaning for 'sons' (Bene) , is that they were pioneers, that makes them men of renown.
The 'Nephilim' are shrouded in too much mystery to belong in any structure of belief that we can reliably make. It would seem that the best guesstimate would be that they were the result of some form of genetic mistake similar to if not in fact giantism.
Please weigh these matters most carefully.

 

[Edward]

however it would appear reasonable in the light of Rom 8:16. that these sons of God made there début when they first started to call on the name of the Lord;
Gen 4:24.

That's new testament. We were not given the power to become sons of God until after Jesus finished His work on the cross!

The book of Jubilees, gives more detail about them calling on the name of God...It actually says they were trying to provoke God by what they were doing...(The fallen Angels).

 

[th1b.taylor]

Fallen angels do, on a regular basis INDWELL unsuspecting men to accomplish what they couldn't do with out their bodies and in this case, sex organs.

But Chopper, the sperm will be our f thay man's body and could not contain any part of a sexless angel/demon, right?