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The soul of man

That's Modalism Jim.
No, it is not.
Modalism is the belief that God sometime acts in the office of Father, sometimes as Son and sometimes as Holy Spirit.
Modalism is a refutation of the Trinity.
I didn't say that.
I'm askin you to define the word.
If you are asking me to define God, then you are asking the impossible.
I gave you my understanding of what the Christian Church means when it uses the word "God."

If you have a point to make, please do so.
Thanks.
 
That's Modalism Jim.

I'm askin you to define the word.
This is the problem with trying to explain the Trinity.
Modulism DIVIDES God.
God cannot be divided.
This is why I've stated the it's diffiuclt to explain the Trinity. We do know however, that it must exist.

Please answer my question regarding John 1:1
 
Jesus is immortal because the Father continues to give Him life.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew
, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Clearly this isn't about Jesus. People have seen Jesus. Paul said this one dwells in inapproachable light and that no one has seen nor can see Him. That's the Father. So, it seems that the title of King of Kings goes to both the Father and the Son.
Jesus is immortal because he is God, in the same sense as the Father.

That last sentence is rather the point. Titles, verses, and ideas that are used of the Father are also used of the Son. That simply could not be if the Son was not also God. This is a very complex subject and we can't just go pulling out single verses as though they prove or disprove anything; some are clear but others are not.
 
Not at all. We can say that there is one Lord Jesus Christ because the after the resurrection all power and authority had been given to Christ. All things were put under His Authority with the exception of the Father Himself.
And so what did Thomas mean by "my Lord and my God"? There are also other numerous instances of Jesus being called Lord in the Gospels. He was Lord prior to his resurrection.


Free said:
Then we have to consider what else is being said. If "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's omnipotence and eternal pre-existence, then it follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's omnipotence and eternal pre-existence. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And this is confirmed in John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

All that to say that we obviously have to be careful and take into account all that the Bible says.
Not following you here. How does all things speak of the Father's omnipotence? Also according to Jesus He isn't omnipotent.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

How can "the Father, from whom are all things" not refer to his omnipotence? If he created everything that has come into being, it means that he is exceedingly powerful. Similarly then, "Jesus Christ, through whom are all things," speaks of the same.

This is why we call Jesus God. If all things came through Jesus, as Paul explicitly states here, then it necessarily follows that Jesus could not be one of those things. Simple, sound logic. And that is precisely what I gave John 1:1-3 and Col. 1:16-17, as they give the exact same argument:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

First, since I don't know Greek, I must lean on other sources. Those sources tell me that the Greek behind "In the beginning was," means that the Word was already in existence when the beginning began. Second, we see the very clear logical argument that Paul also made:

1. All things were made through [the Son].
2. Without [the Son] was not any thing made that was made.

The second statement is just a clearer statement of the first, emphasizing his point, namely, that if everything that has come into existence was made through the Son, then it is logically impossible for the Son to have been one of those created things. That cannot be denied without ignoring logic. Those two verses alone give us several reasons as to why we can correctly claim that Jesus is God in the truest sense, including the very statement "the Word was God."

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Again, the very same argument. If Jesus is uncreated, and he is as these three passages clearly show, then he is, by definition, God.
 
Jesus is immortal because the Father continues to give Him life.
Wrong.
Jesus IS life. (John 1:4; 14:6) and has life in Himself. (John 5:26)
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Clearly this isn't about Jesus. People have seen Jesus. Paul said this one dwells in inapproachable light and that no one has seen nor can see Him. That's the Father. So, it seems that the title of King of Kings goes to both the Father and the Son.
How can this not be about Jesus?
Paul charges Timothy to keep the commandment until the appearing of "our Lord Jesus Christ", the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords"?

If it is not Jesus, then who is it?

iakov the fool
 
Jim, I don't have time at the moment to reply in full. However, so that it's clearer when I reply will you please define for me what you mean by "God"?
BY the number of responses you are posting, I discern that you now seem to have time to reply in full.
What is your understanding of God?
It it trinitarian or something else?


iakov the fool
 
Wrong.
Jesus IS life. (John 1:4; 14:6) and has life in Himself. (John 5:26)
I meant to reply to his statement with:

Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. (ESV)
 
I meant to reply to his statement with:

Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. (ESV)
AH! VERY good!
Not only is Jesus THE life, He is also the author of life.
Wowzers!

iakov the fool
 
Butch5
There can be no new revelation.
However, existing revelation can be clarified, explained in more detail, etc.
The bible also took till the 300's to be put together. Should we not accept it only because it took so long to compile?
Its pages were written before that. The idea of Jesus being God for the reasons OzSpen explained so well were around but took time to clarify.

Even Paul digested all the information he had for 3 years before starting to write and in detail what Christianity is.

How do you explain John 1:1?

And as to Jim Parker, just a heads up:
The Father
Yahweh

And that revelation can also be corrupted. And that's what happened. It's not a matter of it being clarified. This idea is contrary to what was taught in the beginning. The first Christians were taught by Jesus and the apostles and they did not believe in a being called God who consisted of three persons.
 
Well, maybe you could explain the word Theos to me?
Also, I had asked you to explain John 1:1

Is Jesus the Word?
Was He in the beginning?
Was the Word with God?
Was the Word God?

Wondering

Theos means deity. The problem is when people see the word God, they think of a living being. The definition of the word theos is not a living being, it's deity. It is used of the Father, the Son, false gods, and men. The original readers didn't have this confusion because they saw the word theos, not God. The would read John 1:1 as, 'in the beginning was the Word and the word was with Deity and the word was Deity.' If the Father is Deity His offspring will be Deity.

The Nicene Creed says that Jesus is Theos from Theos, Deity from Deity.

Tertullian is credited with coining the term "Trinity". Here is how he understood the Trinity.

Chapter 12.—Other Quotations from Holy Scripture Adduced in Proof of the Plurality of Persons in the Godhead.
If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, “Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness; ” whereas He ought to have said, “Let me make man in my own image, and after my own likeness,” as being a unique and singular Being? In the following passage, however, “Behold the man is become as one of us,” He is either deceiving or amusing us in speaking plurally, if He is One only and singular. Or was it to the angels that He spoke, as the Jews interpret the passage, because these also acknowledge not the Son? Or was it because He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, that He spoke to Himself in plural terms, making Himself plural on that very account? Nay, it was because He had already His Son close at His side, as a second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word,that He purposely adopted the plural phrase, “Let us make; ”and, “in our image; ”and, “become as one of us.” For with whom did He make man? and to whom did He make him like? (The answer must be), the Son on the one hand, who was one day to put on human nature; and the Spirit on the other, who was to sanctify man. With these did He then speak, in the Unity of the Trinity, as with His ministers and witnesses In the following text also He distinguishes among the Persons: “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God created He him.” Why say “image of God? ”Why not “His own image” merely, if He was only one who was the Maker, and if there was not also One in whose image He made man? But there was One in whose image God was making man, that is to say, Christ’s image, who, being one day about to become Man (more surely and more truly so), had already caused the man to be called His image, who was then going to be formed of clay—the image and similitude of the true and perfect Man. But in respect of the previous works of the world what says the Scripture? Its first statement indeed is made, when the Son has not yet appeared: “And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.” Immediately there appears the Word, “that true light, which lighteth man on his coming into the world,” and through Him also came light upon the world. From that moment God willed creation to be effected in the Word, Christ being present and ministering unto Him: and so God created. And God said, “Let there be a firmament, … and God made the firmament; ” and God also said. “Let there be lights (in the firmament); and so God made a greater and a lesser light.” But all the rest of the created things did He in like manner make, who made the former ones—I mean the Word of God. “through whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.” Now if He too is God, according to John, (who says.) “The Word was God,” then you have two BeingsOne that commands that the thing be made. and the Other that executes the order and creates. In what sense, however, you ought to understand Him to be another. I have already explained, on the ground of Personality, not of Substance—in the way of distinction, not of division. But although I must everywhere hold one only substance in three coherent and inseparable (Persons), yet I am bound to acknowledge, from the necessity of the case, that He who issues a command is different from Him who executes it. For, indeed, He would not be issuing a command if He were all the while doing the work Himself, while ordering it to be done by the second. But still He did issue the command, although He would not have intended to command Himself if He were only one; or else He must have worked without any command, because He would not have waited to command Himself.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

It's crystal clear that Tertullian saw in the Trinity at least two separate beings. This is the orginal teaching on the Trinity.
 
Theos means deity. The problem is when people see the word God, they think of a living being. The definition of the word theos is not a living being, it's deity. It is used of the Father, the Son, false gods, and men. The original readers didn't have this confusion because they saw the word theos, not God. The would read John 1:1 as, 'in the beginning was the Word and the word was with Deity and the word was Deity.' If the Father is Deity His offspring will be Deity.

The Nicene Creed says that Jesus is Theos from Theos, Deity from Deity.

Tertullian is credited with coining the term "Trinity". Here is how he understood the Trinity.

Chapter 12.—Other Quotations from Holy Scripture Adduced in Proof of the Plurality of Persons in the Godhead.
If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, “Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness; ” whereas He ought to have said, “Let me make man in my own image, and after my own likeness,” as being a unique and singular Being? In the following passage, however, “Behold the man is become as one of us,” He is either deceiving or amusing us in speaking plurally, if He is One only and singular. Or was it to the angels that He spoke, as the Jews interpret the passage, because these also acknowledge not the Son? Or was it because He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, that He spoke to Himself in plural terms, making Himself plural on that very account? Nay, it was because He had already His Son close at His side, as a second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word,that He purposely adopted the plural phrase, “Let us make; ”and, “in our image; ”and, “become as one of us.” For with whom did He make man? and to whom did He make him like? (The answer must be), the Son on the one hand, who was one day to put on human nature; and the Spirit on the other, who was to sanctify man. With these did He then speak, in the Unity of the Trinity, as with His ministers and witnesses In the following text also He distinguishes among the Persons: “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God created He him.” Why say “image of God? ”Why not “His own image” merely, if He was only one who was the Maker, and if there was not also One in whose image He made man? But there was One in whose image God was making man, that is to say, Christ’s image, who, being one day about to become Man (more surely and more truly so), had already caused the man to be called His image, who was then going to be formed of clay—the image and similitude of the true and perfect Man. But in respect of the previous works of the world what says the Scripture? Its first statement indeed is made, when the Son has not yet appeared: “And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.” Immediately there appears the Word, “that true light, which lighteth man on his coming into the world,” and through Him also came light upon the world. From that moment God willed creation to be effected in the Word, Christ being present and ministering unto Him: and so God created. And God said, “Let there be a firmament, … and God made the firmament; ” and God also said. “Let there be lights (in the firmament); and so God made a greater and a lesser light.” But all the rest of the created things did He in like manner make, who made the former ones—I mean the Word of God. “through whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.” Now if He too is God, according to John, (who says.) “The Word was God,” then you have two BeingsOne that commands that the thing be made. and the Other that executes the order and creates. In what sense, however, you ought to understand Him to be another. I have already explained, on the ground of Personality, not of Substance—in the way of distinction, not of division. But although I must everywhere hold one only substance in three coherent and inseparable (Persons), yet I am bound to acknowledge, from the necessity of the case, that He who issues a command is different from Him who executes it. For, indeed, He would not be issuing a command if He were all the while doing the work Himself, while ordering it to be done by the second. But still He did issue the command, although He would not have intended to command Himself if He were only one; or else He must have worked without any command, because He would not have waited to command Himself.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

It's crystal clear that Tertullian saw in the Trinity at least two separate beings. This is the orginal teaching on the Trinity.
I think you might be saying something different from what I originally understood. Maybe not.
To be Cont'd. It's really later here and I must say good night.

Wondering
 
Why is it that when discussion of the Trinity takes place, context goes out the window? Happens every time.

You previously quoted 1 Cor. 8:6, so let's look a little more at the context:

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

A god is whatever one chooses as their object of worship. So in one sense, yes, there are many gods, but in the sense that we are speaking of regarding the true, living God, there always has been and will only ever be, one.

And of course being called a god is not the only criteria for being in the Trinity. No one has made such a claim.

The passage says idols, not gods. Paul said the gods of the heathen were demons. He said the heathen worship demons.
If being called God isn't the only criteria what else is?

No, the Trinity is not polytheism. The wording of the doctrine of the Trinity is very specific to avoid polytheism--three persons, one God. If you want me to get all philosophical, I have an article in a Bible that explains how this is logically possible.

You say "there is no example in the known universe," but that is not at all an argument, or at least not at all a good one. God is who he is; there is no other like him. The closest analogy I have come across is the Triple Point of substances. Water, for example, at a certain pressure and temperature, can simultaneously exist in gaseous, liquid, and solid forms. One substance, three states. Of course that could also be used to support modalism (every analogy has its shortcomings). The difference being, we know that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. They are all distinct, yet referred to either explicitly or implicitly as God.

It just seems to me that if a single substance as simple as water can simultaneously exist in three different phases given the right conditions, how can we say that God cannot?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_point

I know the wording is precise, but it still can't avoid the contradiction. Three beings cannot be one being. In your post you listed things we know from the Bible. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. That statement shows that the Trinity isn't in the Bible. It shows that the doctrine is by way of inference. Since it's an inference it is the product of the human mind. That means it can be wrong. Since the idea of one being consisting of three persons is contradictory why not seek another inference, one that is logical?
 
No, it is not.
Modalism is the belief that God sometime acts in the office of Father, sometimes as Son and sometimes as Holy Spirit.
Modalism is a refutation of the Trinity.
I didn't say that.

Maybe I misunderstood you. It seemed to me that you were inferring that God revealed himself as the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

If you are asking me to define God, then you are asking the impossible.
I gave you my understanding of what the Christian Church means when it uses the word "God."

If you have a point to make, please do so.
Thanks.

I wanted to know to see where you were coming from in the other post. You said it's impossible to define God. This shows me that you understand the word God as a living being. This is, I believe, why there is so much confusion. It explains where the one being in three persons comes from. If you define God as a living being and, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are called God it leads to the one being in three persons.

However, what I was looking for was the definition of the word God. The Greek word that is translated God is theos and it means deity. If use the word Deity we can see how the Father and the Son can both be Deity (God) without being the same being.

It's similar to what we call Royalty. The King is royalty and his son is royalty, however, they are not the same being.
 
Wrong.
Jesus IS life. (John 1:4; 14:6) and has life in Himself. (John 5:26)

He had life in Himself because He had the Holy Spirit in Him. Paul said that God would raise us with the Spirit. Paul also said that God gives life to all things.

How can this not be about Jesus?
Paul charges Timothy to keep the commandment until the appearing of "our Lord Jesus Christ", the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords"?

If it is not Jesus, then who is it?

iakov the fool

He said Jesus Christ will show the only potentate who dwells in unapproachable light who no man has seen nor can see. Lots of people have seen Jesus. He is visible. So, this passage cannot be talking about Jesus.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)
 
And so what did Thomas mean by "my Lord and my God"? There are also other numerous instances of Jesus being called Lord in the Gospels. He was Lord prior to his resurrection.



1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

How can "the Father, from whom are all things" not refer to his omnipotence? If he created everything that has come into being, it means that he is exceedingly powerful. Similarly then, "Jesus Christ, through whom are all things," speaks of the same.

This is why we call Jesus God. If all things came through Jesus, as Paul explicitly states here, then it necessarily follows that Jesus could not be one of those things. Simple, sound logic. And that is precisely what I gave John 1:1-3 and Col. 1:16-17, as they give the exact same argument:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

First, since I don't know Greek, I must lean on other sources. Those sources tell me that the Greek behind "In the beginning was," means that the Word was already in existence when the beginning began. Second, we see the very clear logical argument that Paul also made:

1. All things were made through [the Son].
2. Without [the Son] was not any thing made that was made.

The second statement is just a clearer statement of the first, emphasizing his point, namely, that if everything that has come into existence was made through the Son, then it is logically impossible for the Son to have been one of those created things. That cannot be denied without ignoring logic. Those two verses alone give us several reasons as to why we can correctly claim that Jesus is God in the truest sense, including the very statement "the Word was God."

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Again, the very same argument. If Jesus is uncreated, and he is as these three passages clearly show, then he is, by definition, God.

The problem is in the definition of God. Theos means deity. I agree that Jesus is Deity. However, what you've posted here doesn't prove the one being consists of three persons idea.
 
That's Modalism Jim.

I'm askin you to define the word.

Jim did not say that God reveals himself in three modes, which is Modalism.

Technically, Modalism can be explained:

Modalistic Monarchianism, also known as Modalism, is the view that God variously manifested Himself as the Father (primarily in the Old Testament), other times as the Son (primarily from Jesus’ conception to His ascension), and other times as the Holy Spirit (primarily after Jesus’ ascension into heaven). Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism teaches that God has simply revealed Himself in three different modes, and that He is not three Persons, as the Bible asserts. Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism is also known as Sabellianism, named after Sabellius, an influential early proponent of the view. Yet another aspect of Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism / Sabellianism is Patripassianism, which is the view that it was God the Father who became incarnate, suffered, died, and was resurrected. Patripassianism essentially teaches that God the Father became His own Son.
(from "What are Sabellianism, Modalism, and Monarchianism?",
GotQuestions.org)​

At no time did I read Jim advocating any form of Modalism.

I find it staggering that on an evangelical Christian forum that you are asking Jim to define 'God'.

Oz
 
The problem is in the definition of God. Theos means deity. I agree that Jesus is Deity. However, what you've posted here doesn't prove the one being consists of three persons idea.

You have provided no Greek lexicon understanding of the meaning of theos but have imposed your view on who Jesus is.

Do you affirm that Jesus is fully God (as in Jn 1:1 ESV)?

Oz
 
The Bible (Old Testament) wasn't written in Greek or Latin...it was written in Hebrew.

The generic term for a god is Eloh. But our God is always referred to as Elohim....the plural form of God.

Just like cherub.... cherubim

God's proper name (the Tetragrammaton) is highly unique.

"Hear oh Israel,. The Lord, The Lord God is ONE.".

Jesus is every bit God and including ALL the same attributes as God the Father. Timeless, omnipotent, omniscience....
 
Jim did not say that God reveals himself in three modes, which is Modalism.

Technically, Modalism can be explained:

Modalistic Monarchianism, also known as Modalism, is the view that God variously manifested Himself as the Father (primarily in the Old Testament), other times as the Son (primarily from Jesus’ conception to His ascension), and other times as the Holy Spirit (primarily after Jesus’ ascension into heaven). Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism teaches that God has simply revealed Himself in three different modes, and that He is not three Persons, as the Bible asserts. Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism is also known as Sabellianism, named after Sabellius, an influential early proponent of the view. Yet another aspect of Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism / Sabellianism is Patripassianism, which is the view that it was God the Father who became incarnate, suffered, died, and was resurrected. Patripassianism essentially teaches that God the Father became His own Son.
(from "What are Sabellianism, Modalism, and Monarchianism?",
GotQuestions.org)​

At no time did I read Jim advocating any form of Modalism.

Are you seriously posting something from "Got Questions"? There is much erroneous theology on that page.

Jim said, "God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy spirit, the Trinity, one in essence and undivided."

That sure looks like Modalism to me. Now I realize that the part about the Trinity was added, but that doesn't take away from the statement, that there is one being who has revealed "Himself" as three others.​

I find it staggering that on an evangelical Christian forum that you are asking Jim to define 'God'.

Oz

I'm sorry that you find it staggering that I would seek to understand what Jim is saying. Sure, I could just "ASSUME" that I know what Jim is thinking and what he means. However, I have found that it makes a conversation much easier when both parties understand what they other is saying. Since the idea of a being called God that consists of three persons in "NOT" stated anywhere in the Scriptures it's clear that it is an inference. Since it is an inference it is subject to the thinking of each individual who infers it. Thus different people may have different ideas. So, rather than spending time replying to something that Jim "DIDN'T" say, (hint), I asked him to explain.
 
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