The soul of man

[Butch5]

I beg your pardon!

You were the one who asked: 'How many [Jesus's] do you know of?' (see #169). I provided you with some evidence to answer your question and now you have the audacity to say, 'I've more important things to do'. If that is the case, then don't bother asking questions for which there are answers that you don't want to hear.

You just listed some names. It doesn't matter what commentators think. There's only one Jesus that matters and that is the one who was begotten by the Father.



Are you saying that your Bible doesn't say anything about the Jesus who is God? John 1:1 (ESV) contradicts your statement: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'. The Word, Jesus, was God.

In the Trinity, Jesus is God:


The “Shield of the Trinity” or Scutum Fidei diagram of traditional Western Christian symbolism (courtesy Wikipedia)
May you have a good one,

Oz[/QUOTE]

Let's stop equivocating on the word God. Please define the word as you understand it. In the diagram you have here it seems you have four Gods. You have,the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and a composite God in the center.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering,

They were confused because some of the statements in that creed are illogical. The men who wrote this creed went far beyond the creeds that came before. Then they had the audacity to say that if anyone didn't believe what they wrote they couldn't be saved. A lot of Christians claim that if you don't believe in the Trinity, which they define as a being called God who consists of three persons, you can't be saved. However, there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches this. The idea is first seen in the Athanasian Creed.

The Athanasian Creed was written to combat Arianism. All creeds were written to clarify a concept which was being challenged.

I don't know the entire Creed right now, but staying with the Trinity for salvation, I'd have to say that you're right in that the doctrine of the Trinity became solidified gradually. The Trinity is found in the N.T. (and also in the O.T. by inference), but is not specifically stated as such, as you've said. The best example is when Jesus tells the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Mathew 28:19.

The interesting question here is not whether it's specifically written or not, but whether or not one is saved if one believes in the Trinity or not saved if he does not. (this might be the whole topic of discussion, I'm sorry if I'm so far behind).

Those who believe that Jesus is God believe that He MUST be God, or we are worshipping a man. This would break the 1st Commandment.

Those who believe that Jesus is the Messiah but not God, believe they are upholding the 1st commandment because they have only one God and are worshipping the Messiah as per God's instructions since He is the annointed one of God. In fact, Trinitarians would be believed to be breaking the 1st commandment by worshipping this "man".

The question is who is saved and who is not.

I have to say that my doctrinal beliefs very much align with OzSpen and Mike. Just to let you understand quickly my beliefs - I don't know who else may be on this thread that I might agree with.

However, I must also say that I don't believe our doctrinal beliefs are what save us. I believe Jesus saves us.
If some sincerely believes Jesus is the Messiah and cannot go further in his belief, then how could he not be saved? He IS trusting in the one name that brings salvation. He must, however, believe this Jesus died for him, for his sins - and that He was resurrected and will also bring life. Acts 4:12

For this there are many verses, here are some:
Luke 24:46-47
Romans 4:25
1 Corinthians 15:3-5
1 Peter 1:3

Wondering

 

[Butch5]

The Athanasian Creed was written to combat Arianism. All creeds were written to clarify a concept which was being challenged.

I don't know the entire Creed right now, but staying with the Trinity for salvation, I'd have to say that you're right in that the doctrine of the Trinity became solidified gradually. The Trinity is found in the N.T. (and also in the O.T. by inference), but is not specifically stated as such, as you've said. The best example is when Jesus tells the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Mathew 28:19.

The interesting question here is not whether it's specifically written or not, but whether or not one is saved if one believes in the Trinity or not saved if he does not. (this might be the whole topic of discussion, I'm sorry if I'm so far behind).

Those who believe that Jesus is God believe that He MUST be God, or we are worshipping a man. This would break the 1st Commandment.

Those who believe that Jesus is the Messiah but not God, believe they are upholding the 1st commandment because they have only one God and are worshipping the Messiah as per God's instructions since He is the annointed one of God. In fact, Trinitarians would be believed to be breaking the 1st commandment by worshipping this "man".

The question is who is saved and who is not.

I have to say that my doctrinal beliefs very much align with OzSpen and Mike. Just to let you understand quickly my beliefs - I don't know who else may be on this thread that I might agree with.

However, I must also say that I don't believe our doctrinal beliefs are what save us. I believe Jesus saves us.
If some sincerely believes Jesus is the Messiah and cannot go further in his belief, then how could he not be saved? He IS trusting in the one name that brings salvation. He must, however, believe this Jesus died for him, for his sins - and that He was resurrected and will also bring life. Acts 4:12

For this there are many verses, here are some:
Luke 24:46-47
Romans 4:25
1 Corinthians 15:3-5
1 Peter 1:3

Wondering

Hi Wondering,

The Nicene Creed was written to fight Arianism. It opens with words that are almost a verbatim quote of the apostle Paul.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

The apostle Paul said,

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1(1 Cor. 8:5-6 KJV)

This is Nicene theology and the position I hold. The idea that there is a being called God who consists of three persons is product of the 5th century. It is seen in the Athanasian Creed.

Up until around the 400's AD. Christians believed in, "one God the Father". This is still seen in the revision of the Nicene Creed in 381 AD.

We believe in one God, the Father, Ruler of all, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

The Athansian Creed strayed markedly from what was originally believed by Christians. As I pointed out it is also the place where we fist see Christians claiming that you had to believe in the Trinity to be saved.

 

[OzSpen]

Did you mean pose this to me? I don't need to be convinced of the Trinity. This is a mystery of the true nature of God that I'll probably never comprehend but do apprehend, to use a Hank Hanegraaff phrase. To not accept His triune nature, is to not know Him.

Does that mean that your view is that to be a Christian, a person has to accept the triune nature of God?

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Wondering,

The Nicene Creed was written to fight Arianism.

So was the Athanasian Creed. Some of its history is recorded HERE. It was probably not written by Athanasius after about AD 450 but is to defend the triune God and that Jesus was true God, co-equal with the Father.

 

[Mike]

Does that mean that your view is that to be a Christian, a person has to accept the triune nature of God?

To be a Christian? I'm not sure I'm following you completely. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily equate with salvation. It's what we refer to as the Body of Christ, in my opinion. To that extent, I do believe one has to embrace the Trinity, God manifesting Himself in three distinct persons.

Salvation? No man can know the extent of God's Grace.

Romans 11:33-36
"33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable areHis judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."

Salvation? Ephesians 2:8-10
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

I would urge everyone to seek the Lord and pray earnestly for Him to reveal His triune nature to them. It's vital, but I'll yield to His grace upon whom He gives grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

So was the Athanasian Creed. Some of its history is recorded HERE. It was probably not written by Athanasius after about AD 450 but is to defend the triune God and that Jesus was true God, co-equal with the Father.

Good morning Oz,

Regarding your post no. 185 - all the creeds had to do with who Jesus was in relation to the Father.

I believe in the Trinity, Triune God, Godhead, or whatever we want to call it.
I believe Jesus is God, the Son, the second person of the trinity.

The point I'm making is that if one cannot accept this, does it necessarily follow that they are not saved??

I agree with Mike's post no. 186.
All we could do is preach the gospel as it is written and as Paul understood it. The rest is up to the person and God. This is why it's a personal relationship. It's not for anyone to declare who is saved and who is not, although I tend to have large arms and can embrace a bit more than others.

I do believe that if we do not accept Jesus as God then we are worshipping a man, thus breaking the 1st commandment. However, I also understand the other point of view.

I do trust that God is a big God and will welcome all who earnestly seek Him.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

To be a Christian? I'm not sure I'm following you completely. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily equate with salvation. It's what we refer to as the Body of Christ, in my opinion. To that extent, I do believe one has to embrace the Trinity, God manifesting Himself in three distinct persons.

Salvation? No man can know the extent of God's Grace.

Romans 11:33-36
"33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable areHis judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."

Salvation? Ephesians 2:8-10
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

I would urge everyone to seek the Lord and pray earnestly for Him to reveal His triune nature to them. It's vital, but I'll yield to His grace upon whom He gives grace.

Excellent sight above Mike! Few believers, when they are initially called by God in Christ know much, if anything about the Trinity. The "common" experience is that they perceive that God in Christ loves them, and gave His Life for them.

When we resort to cutting out the tongues of others over matters of the Trinity, we do them and ourselves a spiritual disfavor, and are instead turned into evil ourselves, imho. Knowledge of the Trinity saves no one.

Would I expect any earnest scripture student to eventually find that understanding or other understandings in the Nicene Creed for example? Yes. Those are solid determinations by serious engagements of studies and contemplation's. But they are not salvation instruments.

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[smaller]

IF anything, the Nicene Creed is an excellent "sniff test" for cultic type errors of understandings. One of the very first standards of most cult groups is a denial of the Trinity. I'd call it almost "universal" in all errors, the denigration and denial of Jesus, that God was in Christ. Romans 5:19.

 

[WIP]

That's correct. Nowhere in Scripture is the modern teaching that there is a being called God who consists of three persons. People read that into the text.

Keep in mind that my comment was not to say that I don't believe in a Triune God. It seemed that you were basing your argument on the absence of a specific use of the word Trinity and Oz didn't seem to be catching that part of your argument so I was attempting to bring this out. Basically, yes, I would like Oz to present the points of Scripture that demonstrate our Triune God. I expect it should be enlightening.

 

[Free]

That's correct. Nowhere in Scripture is the modern teaching that there is a being called God who consists of three persons. People read that into the text.

What people read directly in Scripture is the following:

1. There was, is, and always will be only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. Jesus is God (and man, of course).
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The Father isn't the Son, the Son isn't the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit isn't the Father.

There is only one logical conclusion: we have three, coeternal, coexisting persons within the one being that is God.

The only other option is polytheism, which, if I remember correctly, is what your position advocates. Being that Christianity is monotheistic, just like the Judaism from which it came, we cannot accept polytheism.

 

[Free]

Man doesn't have an immortal soul. Paul, speaking of the Father, indicates that it is the Father alone who has immortality.

Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;1
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:13-16 KJV)

The Father alone has immortality. Paul outranks any Christian so, the argument is over. The immortal soul doctrine comes from Greek Philosophy. Plato's teachings on the soul were popular at the time the NT was written. Many of the Greeks held this thinking and it eventually worked it's way into Christianity as more and more Greeks became Christians.

You don't think that Jesus is immortal? Notice that verse 16 is speaking about the same being as in verse 15. We see that the one in verse 15 is called "the King of kings, and Lord of lords." We then read in Rev. 17:14, "They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

So who is the "Lord of lords and King of kings," the Father or the Son? Surely according to your position it cannot be both, can it?

 

[Free]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

The apostle Paul said,

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1(1 Cor. 8:5-6 KJV)

This passage by Paul is very interesting and N.T. Wright sees verse 6 as Paul's expansion of the Shema. If you want the verse to say that "one God, the Father" precludes Jesus from being God, then it follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from being Lord. Yet that would contradict what we just looked at in 1 Tim. 6:15, among others.

Then we have to consider what else is being said. If "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's omnipotence and eternal pre-existence, then it follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's omnipotence and eternal pre-existence. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And this is confirmed in John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

All that to say that we obviously have to be careful and take into account all that the Bible says.

 

[OzSpen]

To be a Christian? I'm not sure I'm following you completely. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily equate with salvation.

I need some enlightenment from you. How can a person become a Christian (Christ's one) without being saved?

Acts 11:26 (ESV) is the first place in the Bible where the term 'Christian' is used. It states: 'The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch'. So, to be called Christians, they had to be disciples of Christ. They were redeemed to the point where they were disciples of Christ. They had received salvation to begin the Christian life and then be Christ's disciples.

I do not see how you reach the disconnect between salvation and being a genuine Christian. I'm not discussing socialised Christianity of the liberal church.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Keep in mind that my comment was not to say that I don't believe in a Triune God. It seemed that you were basing your argument on the absence of a specific use of the word Trinity and Oz didn't seem to be catching that part of your argument so I was attempting to bring this out. Basically, yes, I would like Oz to present the points of Scripture that demonstrate our Triune God. I expect it should be enlightening.

WIP,

It may be enlightening to some, but it will create points of contention for others. Here goes!

The persons and deity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit
The more complete revelation of the Trinity (as opposed to the Old Testament) is in the New Testament where we find that

The Father is regarded as God. ‘For on him God the Father has set his seal’ (Jn 6:27 ESV); ‘God our Father’ (Rm 1:7 ESV); ‘God the Father’ and ‘God the Father’ (Gal 1:1, 3). Isn’t that clear enough? The Father is God.

The Son is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity: (1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24); (2) Omniscience (Jn 2:24-25; 16:30; 21:17); (3) Omnipresence (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13); (4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8; Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18); (5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8); (6) He does the actions of deity: creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16); holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3); forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6); raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28); he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).

The Holy Spirit is regarded as God. The Holy Spirit is a person. Take John 16:13 (ESV) as an example. the neuter substantive pneuma [Spirit] is referred to by the masculine pronoun ekeinos [he], thus recognising the Holy Spirit not as a neuter ‘it’ but as a person, ‘he’. He is the Comforter/Helper (Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). No ‘it’ can do this. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of Deity. He is eternal (Heb 9:14), omniscient (1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13), omnipotent (Lk 1:35), omnipresent (Ps 139:7-10). And have a guess what? He does the works of deity in creation (Ps 104:30), regeneration (Jn 3:5), giving us Scripture (2 Pt 1:21; and raising the dead (Rm 8:11).

In preparing these Scriptures I have been assisted by Henry Thiessen (1949:134-146). Thiessen notes that ‘the doctrine of the tripersonality of God is not in conflict with the doctrine of the unity of God. There are three persons in the one essence…. These distinctions are eternal. This is evident from the passages which imply Christ’s existence with the Father from eternity (John 1:1, 2; Phil. 2:6; John 17:5, 24) and from those which assert or imply the eternity of the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Heb. 9:14)’ (Thiessen 1949:145).

Although the words Trinity, Triunity or tripersonality do not appear in Scripture, the teachings do, as I’ve attempted to show. Exact wording should not put us off. Try finding these words in the Bible: Rapture, inerrancy, infallibility, Bible, literal interpretation, allegorical interpretation, Sunday, Christmas, Easter; the exact words, ‘Jesus is God’; etc. However, all these teachings can be demonstrated from the Bible (The above details are from my article, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?)

Oz

Bibliography
Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[GodsGrace]

WIP,

It may be enlightening to some, but it will create points of contention for others. Here goes!

The persons and deity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit
The more complete revelation of the Trinity (as opposed to the Old Testament) is in the New Testament where we find that

The Father is regarded as God. ‘For on him God the Father has set his seal’ (Jn 6:27 ESV); ‘God our Father’ (Rm 1:7 ESV); ‘God the Father’ and ‘God the Father’ (Gal 1:1, 3). Isn’t that clear enough? The Father is God.

The Son is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity: (1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24); (2) Omniscience (Jn 2:24-25; 16:30; 21:17); (3) Omnipresence (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13); (4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8; Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18); (5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8); (6) He does the actions of deity: creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16); holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3); forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6); raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28); he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).

The Holy Spirit is regarded as God. The Holy Spirit is a person. Take John 16:13 (ESV) as an example. the neuter substantive pneuma [Spirit] is referred to by the masculine pronoun ekeinos [he], thus recognising the Holy Spirit not as a neuter ‘it’ but as a person, ‘he’. He is the Comforter/Helper (Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). No ‘it’ can do this. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of Deity. He is eternal (Heb 9:14), omniscient (1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13), omnipotent (Lk 1:35), omnipresent (Ps 139:7-10). And have a guess what? He does the works of deity in creation (Ps 104:30), regeneration (Jn 3:5), giving us Scripture (2 Pt 1:21; and raising the dead (Rm 8:11).

In preparing these Scriptures I have been assisted by Henry Thiessen (1949:134-146). Thiessen notes that ‘the doctrine of the tripersonality of God is not in conflict with the doctrine of the unity of God. There are three persons in the one essence…. These distinctions are eternal. This is evident from the passages which imply Christ’s existence with the Father from eternity (John 1:1, 2; Phil. 2:6; John 17:5, 24) and from those which assert or imply the eternity of the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Heb. 9:14)’ (Thiessen 1949:145).

Although the words Trinity, Triunity or tripersonality do not appear in Scripture, the teachings do, as I’ve attempted to show. Exact wording should not put us off. Try finding these words in the Bible: Rapture, inerrancy, infallibility, Bible, literal interpretation, allegorical interpretation, Sunday, Christmas, Easter; the exact words, ‘Jesus is God’; etc. However, all these teachings can be demonstrated from the Bible (The above details are from my article, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?)

Oz

Bibliography
Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

This goes to the heart of the matter Oz.
Great post.

 

[Mike]

do not see how you reach the disconnect between salvation and being a genuine Christian. I'm not discussing socialised Christianity of the liberal church.

I believe the label people put on themselves is not as important as the condition of their heart. I'll put my faith in the Lord; not in the name of a group of believers. Do you disagree with what Paul said about salvation? I'll answer for you. No, you don't. You hold to scripture just as I do.

If you want to create a divide where there is none, I won't bite. To the world, He as set us apart. I want the world to know correctly what I believe when I say I am a Christian, and that includes holding to the Triune Nature of God. But I leave salvation to the One who gives it.

Romans 9
"14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

 

[OzSpen]

This goes to the heart of the matter Oz.
Great post.

Thanks, wondering, for your encouragement.

I've struggled with the what and how of the Trinity over the years and analysing this biblical material was a help to me.

I hope you were safe from the latest Italian earthquake. Did you feel a few tremors up your way?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks, wondering, for your encouragement.

I've struggled with the what and how of the Trinity over the years and analysing this biblical material was a help to me.

I hope you were safe from the latest Italian earthquake. Did you feel a few tremors up your way?

Oz

No. But it's misery down there. 25,000 homeless. It's staggering. And no end in sight.

The Trinity is difficult and also the nature of Jesus - thus all the creeds to explain it. The one from Constantinople of 385 just made it more complicated. in fact, it was declared that the one from 325 was more accurate. This is due to the fact that we're trying to explain GOD with words. It's very difficult! Our minds are too finite.

I understand Butch5's position. I must say that I don't understand how one could call himself a Christian if he does not believe the Triune nature of God, which would mean that Jesus is not God.

Some concepts in Christianity just have to be accepted.

Wondering

 

[Butch5]

No. But it's misery down there. 25,000 homeless. It's staggering. And no end in sight.

The Trinity is difficult and also the nature of Jesus - thus all the creeds to explain it. The one from Constantinople of 385 just made it more complicated. in fact, it was declared that the one from 325 was more accurate. This is due to the fact that we're trying to explain GOD with words. It's very difficult! Our minds are too finite.

I understand Butch5's position. I must say that I don't understand how one could call himself a Christian if he does not believe the Triune nature of God, which would mean that Jesus is not God.

Some concepts in Christianity just have to be accepted.

Wondering

But, the concept wasn't in Christianity until the 400's AD. That's the point I've been making. How do you have 400 years of Christianity without a doctrine that so many claim is central to Christianity?