The soul of man

[dianegcook]

Jesus is the rest of those who believe and are saved, not the of those who do not believe and are condemned.
The condemned have "no rest day nor night..."

That also refers to those who believe and are saved, not to those who do not believe and are condemned.

Then you just don't believe what Jesus specifically said at Mat 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
It is man's choice to believe Jesus or reject Jesus. We get what we choose; eternal life or eternal punishment.
Jhn 3:14-19 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

iakov the fool

So you are saying that all have eternal life, in heaven or in hell..
I read in John 3:16 that they perish...
In the Strong's, #622, perish means to destroy, die...
In Rev.20:6
Speaks of the second death, which is the death of the soul.
In Matt.10:28 states
But rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell..

Ps, Thanks for your patience...

 

[Jim Parker]

I prefer Paul's view:

I gave you Paul's view.
In the passage, Paul is talking to believers.
But the words "the dead" (and the dead will be raised imperishable,) refers to all mankind because all mankind will be resurrected.

Do you think the lost's bodies are raised in glory?

I think "in glory" refers to the saved but all of mankind will be raised immortal (can't physically die again) and imperishable (cannot be destroyed.)

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

Luke 20:35(LEB) but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:42-43 (LEB)Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruptibility. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
​

Do you think the lost are considered worthy to attain to "the resurrection from the dead"? I think Paul's view was the same as Jesus' view. That is, only those worthy of glory and the ressurection from the dead will be raised immortal.

I think "in glory" refers to the saved but all of mankind will be raised immortal (can't physically die again) and imperishable (cannot be destroyed.)

iakov the fool

2 Timothy 1:10 (LEB) but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel,

Do you think the lost receive immortality through something other than the Gospel? Or is it through the Gospel fro them too?​

 

[Jim Parker]

So you are saying that all have eternal life, in heaven or in hell..

No, I am not.
Everyone whose name is not written in the book of life (Rev 20:15) experiences the second death, not eternal life.
Eternal life is NOT the same as immortality. Immortality is the condition of being physically alive. One can be physically alive and "spiritually" dead. (Eph 2:1)
The only being who has life by nature is God. To have eternal life is to be intimately united to God in Christ. (Thus the metaphor of the church being the bride of Christ and one flesh with Christ.)
Those separated from God after the resurrection will experience (be completely aware of being in a state of) eternal death.

I read in John 3:16 that they perish...
In the Strong's, #622, perish means to destroy, die...

Strong's also gives: "metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell."
That is the appropriate understanding.

In Rev.20:6
Speaks of the second death, which is the death of the soul.

Rev 20:11-15 says absolutely nothing about anything called a "spiritual death" or the "death of the soul."
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The resurrected people who are judged are not resurrected as "souls"; they are complete people with bodies, souls and spirits. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.
He also said that the righteous will enter into eternal life and the condemned will go into eternal punishment. The word for "eternal" is the same for both eternal life and eternal punishment: αἰώνιος (aiōnios).

In Matt.10:28 states
But rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell..

Right, Jesus said that. But he wasn't talking about the eternal condition of people after the resurrection so by applying it to that topic, you take the words out of their context and attempt to make them mean something that was not intended. The message of that verse is that we should not fear what men can do but what God can do.
Mat 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill (Gr: ἀποκτείνω [apokteinō]) the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy (Gr. ἀπόλλυμι [apollymi]) both soul and body in hell."
Both words, ἀποκτείνω and ἀπόλλυμι, have the same metaphorical meaning of "to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell."

There is no Biblical teaching that the souls (and/or bodies) of the condemned are utterly destroyed or reduced to ashes or otherwise annihilated.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you think the lost are considered worthy to attain to "the resurrection from the dead"?

It is not a question of being worthy.
Jesus, by his incarnation, death and resurrection, destroyed the power of death to hold mankind. All of mankind will be resurrected, some to eternal life and some to eternal condemnation. Jesus has defeated death.
1Co 15:52-57
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

According to Jesus, the resurrection is universal; all of mankind will be raised from the grave. John 5:28-29 (NKJV): … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

Jesus, by his incarnation, death and resurrection, destroyed the power of death to hold mankind

When did the last trumpet sound? Or has it???

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting?

I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened yet. Yet, Jesus' incarnation, death and resurrection has.

 

[Jim Parker]

When did the last trumpet sound? Or has it???

It has not. It will sound at the end of the age.

I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened yet. Yet, Jesus' incarnation, death and resurrection has.

The power of death has been destroyed, otherwise, we would not be talking about a resurrection.

 

[chessman]

You say:

The power of death has been destroyed,.

Yet Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 (LEB) But whenever this perishable body puts on incorruptibility and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? ​

I'll stick with what Paul said.

It is not a question of being worthy.

Actually, yes it is a question of being worthy.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'll stick with what Paul said.

Good for you.
But, I know, right now, that I will not remain in the grave forever; I will rise from the grave when Christi comes again because death no longer has the power to hold me.

Actually, yes it is question of being worthy.

Show me in scripture where being worthy has anything to do with the resurrection of all mankind.

 

[chessman]

Show me in scripture where being worthy has anything to do with the resurrection of all mankind.

The issue is not the resurrection of all mankind. The issue is what kind of man (saved or lost) is worthy of the glory, honor and reward of immortality (Eternal Life).

Romans 2:6-8 (LEB) who will reward each one according to his works: to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.​

 

[chessman]

Right, Jesus said that. But he wasn't talking about the eternal condition of people after the resurrection so by applying it to that topic, you take the words out of their context and attempt to make them mean something that was not intended.

You mean to tell me that "Hell" isn't in context of the eternal condition.

When you accuse someone of taking a verse "out of context and making them mean something that was not intended", you might try validating your claim in some measure rather than just stating it.

How, exactly, is Matt 10:28 not in context of the lost's eternal condition? Or is that one of those questions you've 'already answered' and I'm not willing to consider?

How did posting it "make it mean something that was not intended"?

Do you believe God can destroy the bodies and souls of the lost in Hell or not?

 

[freewill]

Do you then believe that all condemned souls even the least knowledgeable and least offensive of them will be made to endure terrible suffering forever?

If so, can you start carefully explaining to me please, exactly where in the Bible such a doctrine comes from?

Sure

At John 5:28-29 (NKJV) Jesus said: … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The original Greek word for condemnation in this verse is "krisis" (transliteration, kriseōs) and according to Strong's Concordance this word krisis means: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.

Why then do you automatically assume the meaning of "krisis" - (judgement, sentence or condemnation) in this verse can only mean a condemnation of everlasting torment?

Listen, "Judgement" or "condemnation" in this verse can also refer to other forms of punishment besides everlasting torment, such as everlasting death - (annihilation), or a limited period of torment followed by everlasting death. Try and remember that death is also a punishment and everlasting death therefore would also be an everlasting punishment.

...and when possible let us try and deal with one verse at a time.

 

[smaller]

The power of death has been destroyed, otherwise, we would not be talking about a resurrection.

Not quite.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

This dilemma is however found in Rev.

Revelation 9:6
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

It will not be found, because 1 Cor. 15:26 will have transpired.

 

[chessman]

Not quite.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

This dilemma is however found in Rev.

Revelation 9:6
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

It will not be found, because 1 Cor. 15:26 will have transpired.

Interesting point. One that I've never really thought about before. However, I note:
1. "In those days", v6, is during the days of the Fifth Angel (Tormenting Locusts) and
2. during the days of "the sixth angel" a third of humanity was killed by plagues. Rev 9:18 Thus, obviously death is not destroyed during the time of Rev 9:6
3. just because men seek death and shall not find it, doesn't mean that death has been destroyed. (I loose my keys all the time, but they have not been destroyed. I just can't seem to find them at the time.)
4. There is no dilemma among the various Scriptures on this subject. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death"; how is that a dilemma? It's only in contradiction with people that claim death has already been destroyed. When clearly, death has not already been destroyed, either now or during the time of the Tormenting Locusts of Rev 9:6

I'm very confident that death is the last enemy that shall be destroyed. AND when that will occur. I cheated, and read the end of the story. It occurs after all the lost experience their second death and all the saved have been resurrected with their immortal bodies. See Rev 21:4. Poof, simple really.

There is no passage in the Bible that says the lost have either now (See 1 Tim 6:16) or are raised with the honor, glory or reward of immortality (Eternal Life). Eternal Life is a gift of God's to the saved only, remember.

 

[smaller]

Interesting point. One that I've never really thought about before. However, I note:
1. "In those days", v6, is during the days of the Fifth Angel (Tormenting Locusts) and
2. during the days of "the sixth angel" a third of humanity was killed by plagues. Rev 9:18 Thus, obviously death is not destroyed during the time of Rev 9:6
3. just because men seek death and shall not find it, doesn't mean that death has been destroyed. (I loose my keys all the time, but they have not been destroyed. I just can't seem to find them at the time.)
4. There is no dilemma among the various Scriptures on this subject. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death"; how is that a dilemma? It's only in contradiction with people that claim death has already been destroyed. When clearly, death has not already been destroyed, either now or during the time of the Tormenting Locusts of Rev 9:6

I'm very confident that death is the last enemy that shall be destroyed. AND when that will occur. I cheated, and read the end of the story. It occurs after all the lost experience their second death and all the saved have been resurrected with their immortal bodies. See Rev 21:4. Poof, simple really.

Readers often miss what transpires prior to all of what we see past this point. Look, carefully, at what transpires:

Rev. 5:
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Prophets described this, likewise, identically, here:

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Effectively, Christ's Eternal LIFE shall swallow DEATH.

Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

Isaiah 25:7
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

There is no passage in the Bible that says the lost have either now (See 1 Tim 6:16) or are raised with the honor, glory or reward of immortality (Eternal Life).

That is entirely dependent on what you think you see. Here is how God, how scripture sees the "lost." If we only see one party, we are simply not looking at the obvious, and may not be able to see, by Gods Own Designs:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

There is not one party, but TWO in the above. Just as there was/is for blinded Israel:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Readers who can not SEE this matter are likewise, technically blinded by God in the same way. Even though it can be set directly before a lot of people's eyes, they STILL can neither see it, hear it, or even perceive it.

God can destroy that working and remove that covering from anyone, in a nano-second. But chooses NOT to do so.

Eternal Life is a gift of God's to the saved only, remember.

I would submit to you that the exercises upon planet earth entail more than meets the eye of flesh. THESE PARTIES are also being ENGAGED, by God Himself:

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

And what are these being spoken of?

Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Not everything is as it appears, on the surface:

Luke 8:
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

And God ALLOWS this to transpire.

 

[Jim Parker]

The issue is not the resurrection of all mankind. The issue is what kind of man (saved or lost) is worthy of the glory, honor and reward of immortality (Eternal Life).

Romans 2:6-8 (LEB) who will reward each one according to his works: to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.​

There is nothing in that passage which says the person who gets eternal life is "worthy of eternal life."
Eph 2:10 says we were created to do good works. It's our job. When you do your earthly job, you get a paycheck. You are not deemed to be "worthy of receiving" a paycheck.
In the Romans 2 passage, it says that everyone will be "rewarded" according to their works. Those who do the will of the Father are rewarded with eternal life. (Not, "deemed worthy of eternal life)Those who do the will of the devil are rewarded with wrath and anger. (Not, "deemed worthy of wrath and anger.)
The root form of the Greek word rendered "rewarded" is ἀποδίδωμι (apodidōmi ). It means; to pay off, discharge what is due.
The Greek word meaning "worthy" is ἄξιος (axios).
There's nothing in the entire passage (Ro 2:1-11) about being worthy or unworthy. The passages is about the payment which God will render to everyone according to each person's works.

My request to you was, "Show me in scripture where being worthy has anything to do with the resurrection of all mankind."

The passage you cited says absolutely nothing about either resurrection or worthiness.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

You mean to tell me that "Hell" isn't in context of the eternal condition.

You have gone off the track again.
I had responded to dianegcook's comment (#21), "So you are saying that all have eternal life, in heaven or in hell.."
The topic was the difference between immortality and eternal life not the difference between heaven and hell.

 

[Jim Parker]

Listen, "Judgement" or "condemnation" in this verse can also refer to other forms of punishment besides everlasting torment, such as everlasting death - (annihilation),

Annihilation is not a biblical teaching. It is a heresy.

or a limited period of torment followed by everlasting death.

There is no biblical example of that notion.

Try and remember that death is also a punishment and everlasting death therefore would also be an everlasting punishment.

Death is not a punishment. Death is what is due as a result of sin. (Ro 6:23)
Sin separates man from the only source of life; God. When someone separates himself from God he separates himself from life and will die, first physically, and eventually, eternally in the second death when death, Hades, the devil and the condemned are all cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

...and when possible let us try and deal with one verse at a time.

The scripture was not written one verse at a time. It was written without chapters and verses. Those were added in the 1500's to facilitate finding passages.
To deal with one verse at a time most often results in the verse being taken out of context and its meaning being distorted.


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Luke 20:35(LEB) but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead

"That age" and "the resurrection from the dead" are two different things.
"That age" refers to the kingdom of heaven (the age to come) which only those who are saved (worthy) will attain.
But, all of mankind will be raised from the dead and will be judged according to their deeds.
By this kind of "proof texting", you are attempting to make one verse (an artificial division of scripture) contradict the rest of scripture.

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

There is nothing in that passage which says the person who gets eternal life is "worthy of eternal life."

I didn't say there was in that passage. But Luke 20:35 does tell us that there are those who are worthy to attain to that age AND to "the resurrection from the dead". Christ being the first and only foundational basis for anyone else also being worthy of "the resurrection from the dead"

Acts 26:23 (LEB) that the Christ was to suffer and that as the first of the resurrection from the dead,​

Luke 20:35(LEB) but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead

Obviously there are those that are worthy to attain to that age AND to the resurrection from the dead.

Or 1 Corinthians 15:42-43 (LEB)Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruptibility. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

If you think any of these passages above are speaking of the resurrection of the lost, then please explain why since they all speak of being either "worthy", Christ being "the first" or "glory"? It's my view they are speaking of the resurrection of the dead that are saved and only the saved. You'd have to look somewhere else for the resurrection of the lost, IMO.

"the resurrection of the dead" seems to be a phrase that is precisely used for the resurrection of the saved (not the lost).

I simply have no idea why you keep asking me the following question:

"Show me in scripture where being worthy has anything to do with the resurrection of all mankind."

It's not my view that the resurrection of all mankind are worthy to attain to that age or to the resurrection from the dead or to Eternal Life or to Immortality or to incorruptibility, or to power, glory or honor, etc. That's the point. How could I post a Scripture that's not found in the Bible.

It might be more fruitful for you to actually post the exact Scripture that teaches you that the lost are raised with immortality (since that's your view evidently) and we can go on from there. Quite frankly, I'm confused as to where you get that idea from in the first place. It doesn't seem to be from any of the verses I mentioned above.

Eph 2:10 says we were created to do good works. It's our job. When you do your earthly job, you get a paycheck. You are not deemed to be "worthy of receiving" a paycheck.

Luke 10:2-7 (LEB) And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few, ... for the worker is worthy of his pay."
​

But whatever. That's not really the topic of this thread.

​

"That age" and "the resurrection from the dead" are two different things.

I know. That's why the passage says "and".

... the kingdom of heaven (the age to come) which only those who are saved (worthy) will attain.

I know that too. That was my point.

But, all of mankind will be raised from the dead and will be judged according to their deeds.

I know that too.

The topic was the difference between immortality and eternal life not the difference between heaven and hell.

My comment was very specific. You claimed Matt 10:28 was out of context to the topic of the OP, "The soul of man" and with respect to final nature of the lost in Hell. When in fact it's obviously not out of context to either.

By this kind of "proof texting", you are attempting to make one verse (an artificial division of scripture) contradict the rest of scripture.

No I'm not. There is no contradiction within Scripture. Nor would it be my attempt to make it seem like there is one.