Jim Parker
Member
1 Cor 15:53 does NOT say the mortal "liable to die soul" must put on immortality.
Do you profess that the body is the soul?
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The soul of man
- Thread starter freewill
- Start date
Do you profess that the body is the soul?
freewill,
The OT affirms the hope of life after death in bodily terms. The doctrine of OT immortality is seen mostly in view of resurrection. Since human beings were created from the dust (Gen. 2:7 ESV), the expectation was that they would return to dust (Eccl. 12:7 ESV). However, this latter verse also teaches that “the spirit returns to God who gave it”.
Who are the people being addressed, in context, with this message? 'Man', i.e. mankind/human beings (Eccl 1:3 ESV), 'a person' (Eccl. 11:8 ESV), those in 'the days of your youth' (Eccl 12:1 ESV), the wise Preacher 'taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs with care' (Eccl. 12:9 ESV).
What is one of the wise pieces of knowledge? Human beings (the bodies) return to dust (Eccl. 12:7 ESV) and the spirit returns to God' (Eccl. 12:7). It is impossible for the spirit to return to dust because the spirit is not something that decomposes.
There is not a word here from the writer of Ecclesiastes that the spirit at death is annihilated. The spirit returns to God for ALL human beings. That's the context of Ecclesiastes.
Oz
freewill
Member
Hello Oz, it is good that you can at least acknowledge that God alone is immortal, let me explain again what I see, and then see if you can acknowledge this...
If all spirits or souls live forever then all spirits/souls must be truly immortal also. Reason being is because the definition of immortality is "living forever" or "not capable of dying", whether a spirit or soul has a beginning or not is irrelevant. The fact remains then that if a spirit/soul cannot die or lives forever then that spirit or soul will be just as immortal as God Himself is immortal irrespective of whether or not that spirit or soul had a beginning!
Let me then repeat what God keeps telling us through Scripture: God alone is immortal, not man or his soul or his worldly spirit but God alone is immortal as 1 Timothy 6:15-16 explains, and with no access to the tree of life on earth the key to living forever for the lost souls of men who seek after righteousness, is knowing and trusting in the God revealed through the patriarchs and the prophets and the Lord Jesus Christ… "whoever believes in him may have eternal life" John 3:15. Whoever keeps faith and overcomes the world shall be given "the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God", Revelation 2:7. But knowing God or believing in God or eating from the tree of life in the paradise of God would not have been needed for eternal life if men had been born with immortal souls. I would like to add that the holy angels have immortality simply because they have God the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
In the light of Scripture that is not true.
Yes, the apostle Paul is describing here that God abolished death for all who are saved.
I have checked out what the Bible says about man's soul and God's justice Oz, and as far I can see the Bible does actually say there is such a thing as everlasting torment. The key to immortality though is knowing God, and it is those who were given knowledge and understanding of the truth and despise and hate the good so clearly revealed through Jesus Christ, and continue seeking to keep fulfilling their depraved desires to seduce and corrupt, torture and destroy whoever or whatever they know is good shall forever be seen to have been justly given the greater condemnation. God alone is immortal and He will give immortality to whoever He decides deserves immortality, justice will be done and will be seen to be done. The final judgment then will forever serve as the perfect safeguard for creation because no free and perfect mind of reason like the fallen angels once had, will ever again admire the wild and exiting spirit of rebellion and dare to venture into Satan's reckless state of valuing the self above God and truth.
But to cause or allow any suffering beyond what is necessary for the eternal safety or well-being of creation would be as offensive to God as it would be alien to reason and love. Don't you agree?
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chessman
Member
Reading 2 Tim 1:10, we find out that it is believers immortality that is, in a derived sense, "given" to "us" who are "called with a Holy calling" to "save us" . Not given to unbelievers. Please post and underline and explain where in the passage Paul says that the immortality of unbelievers' souls are derived through the Gospel. And explain why Jesus says fear God who can destroy souls in Hell, if that were in fact the case.
2 Timothy 1:8-10 (LEB) Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor me his prisoner, but suffer along with me for the gospel, according to the power of God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace that was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel,
Christ brought to light life and immortality through the Gospel, He did not give immortality to those who are ashamed of the Gospel. This passage would be supporting universal salvation (believers and unbelievers) if that were the case.
To be honest, I'd prefer for Paul to have said unbelievers' souls derived their immortality through the Gospel. But he didn't. Nor did he contradict Jesus saying that God can destroy souls in Hell.
Matthew 10:28 (LEB) And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Think about Matt 10:28 in light of the fact that you say that the souls of the lost have derived immortality.
p.s. The Gospel has always been true. So if the lost derive immortal souls through it, they've always derived immortality through it.
What possible difference does that make toward what Paul and Jesus said???
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freewill
Member
Through valuing his own desire to know good and evil above his Father‘s warning, the pure and innocent spirit of humility and truth that ruled in Adam was confounded and corrupted into a self first spirit of lies and rebellion against God. The spirit that once formed the heart of the ruling character in Adam was now dead in Adam.
I have seen it argued before that Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us all men were made with immortal souls or spirits… "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." …but the words "the spirit returns to God who gave it” can easily be seen describing a returning spirit (conscious or unconscious, dead or alive) ultimately to receive glory or to be reserved in a place for the judgement and a just condemnation at God’s appointed time. Ecclesiastes 9:5 also tells us "the dead know nothing” which I take as a reference to the dead during the time of Solomon who were still to be awoken or resurrected and made conscious again.
freewill
Member
The tree of life gives infinitely more than just fruit for the body Jim, if you can't see that then you must be in a bad way.
God makes it clear in Genesis 3:22-24 NASB that He was not going to allow the corrupted person whom Adam had become to live forever. After God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, he might stretch out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever” this is what happened next: God drove the man out from the Garden of Eden, He then placed "cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life” in order to keep fallen man from eating and living forever.
If God had made Adam with an immortal soul (having an immortal mind of reason being able to sense and perceive) then it would have been pointless to place cherubim and a flaming sword guarding the way to the tree of life in order to make sure he would not find a way to live forever.
Can't you see yet?
Jim Parker
Member
Huzzah!
Jim Parker
Member
Where in scripture does it say that?
I don't see it because it does not make sense.
The soul does not need to eat; the body does.
The fruit was given to man as food; the soul, not being physical, doesn't need physical food.
If the body doesn't eat, it dies but the soul continues on as demonstrated by Jesus' words at Luke 16:19-31 where the souls of men who had died were depicted by Jesus as being alert, aware and communicating. It is also demonstrated at the Transfiguration when Moses, who had died, appeared to Peter John and James and it is specifically stated in Jesus' teaching to the Sadducees concerning the resurrection when he says that God is the God of the living (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - all of whom had died). Mat 22:31-32.
It might make sense only if you think the soul is the body.
Again, is that your belief? Do you believe the soul and the body are the same thing?
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freewill,
In your response, you did not mention a word about the quotes I gave from Ecclesiastes in my post #62. I will not be responding to the content of this post of yours since you avoided what Ecclesiastes 12 taught.
We cannot have a reasonable conversation when you do this.
Oz
chessman,
I read the whole Bible and find that immortality of the soul is taught throughout the Bible for both believers and unbelievers. See Eccl 12:7 (ESV) and Matt 25:46 (ESV).
Immortality for unbelievers was confirmed long before the Gospel of the crucified and resurrected Christ came, as in Eccl. 3:21 (ESV) and Eccl 12:7 (ESV).
As for Matt 10:28 (LEB), be afraid of Him who is able to 'destroy' both soul and body in Gehenna. Jesus does not beat around the bush here. He gets straight to the point. Those who oppose the disciples are 'those who kill the body' but they cannot touch the unseen part of human beings, the soul.
'Destroy' is not speaking of annihilation but inflicting everlasting punishment. We know this from passages such as Matt 25:46 (ESV); Mark 9:47 (ESV); 2 Thess 1:9 (ESV). As for Gehenna (hell), this is the place for the wicked, soul and body, after judgment day (see Matt 5:22 ESV, 29-30, 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-47 ESV; Luke 12:5 ESV; James 3:6 ESV).
God is referred to as the one who is able to 'destroy both soul and body in Gehenna' (see also Rev 20:15 ESV). 'Soul and body in Gehenna' implies the bodily resurrection of the damned because the unbelievers are not yet in their final location, Gehenna.
The NT teaches immortality after the resurrection, but it also teaches the conscious existence of the soul between death and the resurrection, in what is known as the intermediate state.
Christ’s promise to the thief on the cross was “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43 ESV). Stephen, the martyr, prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59 ESV). He did not pray, “Lord Jesus, send me to the grave in which to sleep until the resurrection of the just and unjust.”
Paul’s classic statement of the immortality of the soul is in 2 Cor. 5:8 (ESV), “Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” Paul as he was contemplating his own death, wrote: “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better” (Phil. 1:23 ESV). There is no hint in Paul’s teaching of going to sleep in the grave before the resurrection of the just. He knew that when he died he would “be with Christ.” How does that compare with this life? It is “far better.”
Some contend that in I Corinthians 15 (ESV) Paul is correcting a false doctrine in Corinth of the immortality of the soul. Nowhere does Paul even hint at this. He wrote this passage to correct a false doctrine: “How can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?” (I Cor. 15:14 ESV). The proclamation of 'no resurrection of the dead' was the false teaching Paul challenged and corrected.
The passage of I Cor. 15 (ESV) corrected a Sadducees-kind-of false doctrine, that there is no resurrection of the dead. It is fallacious to say that Paul was correcting a false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Paul’s punch line is in v. 16: “For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.” Immortality of the soul means that the soul continues in conscious existence after death and will be reunited with the body in the resurrection of all people.
When we go to the book of Revelation, we find an example of the souls of martyred people who are conscious and in heaven: “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne” (Rev. 6:9). But as for the wicked, even the beast and the false prophet who where were thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20) were alive 1,000 years later (Rev. 20:10). What will happen to the devil, the beast and the false prophet? “They will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Rev. 20:10). There’s no soul sleep here!
In Matt. 17:3 (ESV) we read, “And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.” Here Moses and Elijah, who had been dead for hundreds of years, were alive and conversing about Christ’s death on the Mount of Transfiguration. There’s no soul sleep here!
There is ample biblical evidence to demonstrate that at death all people's body goes to the grave to be turned into dust. However, the spirit of all people goes to Hades (Luke 16:19-31 ESV), awaiting the resurrection.
Oz
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Of course 'the dead know nothing' further here on earth. Where in Ecclesiastes does it say that 'the spirit returns to God who gave it' and in God's presence they know nothing. You are imposing your agenda.
Jim Parker
Member
That's the result of "proof-texting" which has become the standard method of doing "pop theology." You pick a verse or a piece of a verse which appears to support your personal opinion and then ignore the rest of the Bible. It's a variation of the "got-cha" game where you try to make your opponent look foolish. It is the lazy man's substitute for actual study.
I don't blame people for doing it. The televangelists make their money doing it and the schools no longer teach students how to think so people are seduced by what appears to be knowledge of scripture.
iakov the fool
That's the result of "proof-texting" which has become the standard method of doing "pop theology." You pick a verse or a piece of a verse which appears to support your personal opinion and then ignore the rest of the Bible. It's a variation of the "got-cha" game where you try to make your opponent look foolish. It is the lazy man's substitute for actual study.
I don't blame people for doing it. The televangelists make their money doing it and the schools no longer teach students how to think so people are seduced by what appears to be knowledge of scripture.
iakov the fool
Excellent insight, Jim. It is so easy to pull a verse out of context to make it mean what anyone's pop theology wants it to mean. On a different topic, I dealt with this a few weeks ago when it was preached from the church I attend. I've developed it into a new article: Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15
I heard it yesterday when I visited a church and the pastor preached on revival, using 2 Chron 7:14 (ESV). There was not a word of context in the sermon. It was pop theology, designed to gee up the people to think revival. Then he asked the people at the end of the service to get on their knees if at all possible to pray for revival for 5-10 mins. Then began the singers at the front blasting forth with some song and I had to put hands over my ears so I could pray.
That's another topic, but it relates to your point of proof-texting and pop theology that is exemplified in some of the televangelists.
Oz
Jim Parker
Member
Pray for revival for 5 -10 minutes!?
How about continuous prayer until revival breaks out?
(But not before the pastor discovers the wonders of context! :shock)
chessman
Member
Well, if reading Eccl 12:7 and Matt 25:46 taught you the immortality of the lost's soul, then I see why we have differing opinions. Neither verse even mentions immortality. That's an odd way to be 'taught' something from the Bible, to refer to passages that don't even mention immortality.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (LEB) And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it.
The dust (body) returns to the Earth and the breath returns to God (Your Creator, v1) who gave it. That doesn't say that the lost have immortality. Which remains my unanswered question posed to you. Is it your position that the lost return to their immortal state from which they came prior to their creation??? If not, I'm not sure why you posted this verse.
Matthew 25:46 (LEB) And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Okay, I'm aware that the lost depart into eternal punishment. Their punishment being the second death in Hell where God can destroy both their body and their soul. But once again, this verse doesn't say that the lost have derived their immortality from God. In fact, it makes my position on the lost receiving the just punishment even clearer. It's contrasting life with death (their punishment).
Matt 25:46 does not support your view.
I'm still looking for a verse that says the lost have derived immortality obtained at; 1) their creation (if that's your view from Ecll 12:7), 2) Christ's incarnation (if that's your view) or 3) at their ressurection (if that's your view) or after their judgment (Hell, via Matt 26:46). I'm not even sure now what you're claiming with respect to when the lost get God's derived immortality. Probably because you've not posted any Scriptures that say the lost have immortality at either 1, 2 or 3 (or 4, Hell)
WRT Matt 10:28 in light of whether the lost have been given immortality (or derived it via Christ's incarnation) or not, you say:
Okay, but God sure can destroy that unseen part. Jesus clearly says God can "destroy" the unseen part of human beings (the soul). That's my point.
So, on to what "destroy" 'really' means... (Although I'm not quite sure why because you still didn't post a verse that says the raised lost have either a derived immortality or the gift of immortality). [I'll be looking for more support from you on that claim. Especially since it's "taught throughout the Bible for both believers and unbelievers".
WRT "destroy" you say:
I'm pretty sure destroy is speaking of the destruction of the soul and the ressurected body. I don't know what you mean by annihilation, nor is it really important for me to know. But, why in the world would Jesus say "destroy" if what He really meant was 'inflicting everlasting punishment'??? I thought He wasn't "beating around the bush". But anyway, the destruction of the body and soul is everlasting, on my view. I don't claim that the souls of the lost are immortal. You do.
In Matt 10:28, sure, but not in Rev 20:15. I don't see what point you are trying to make here. Call it Hell or Gehenna, which ever word for the lost's final destination suits you is fine. The point is, God can destroy the souls and the ressurected bodies of the lost their.
Only for those that are saved! Plus, didn't you just get through claiming that the OT teaches the immortality after death but prior to the ressuection (or even a return to their immortality prior to birth) via referring to Ecl 12:7??? You seem to make a lot of contradictory claims when it comes to this immortality of the lost issue, frankly.
Please just prove that the NT teaches immortality for the lost. Frankly, I don't believe you on that point.
I've looked and it's not there. Which is why you had to post two verses that doesn't even mention immortality.
Here is what the NT teaches about "immortality". Notice that nowhere does it say or even vaguely imply that the lost get the same immortality at their ressurection as the saved do In fact, it clearly shows that only the saved (believers in Christ) receive immortality:
Romans 2:7-8 (LEB) to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life, but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.
[see the contrast??? The saved are seeking immortality and get it. The lost get God's wrath and anger, not immortality. And BTW, if all mankind derive their immortality at 1) their creation or 2) Christ's incarnation then why in the world does Paul say mankind is still seeking it??? You should really put 1) and 2) ideas to death. Paul destroys that idea via Romans 2:7, frankly. So what about 3) or 4)?]
1 Corinthians 15:50, 53-54 But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility. For it is necessary for this perishable body to put on incorruptibility, and this mortal body to put on immortality. But whenever this perishable body puts on incorruptibility and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Paul's other teaching on immortality to Timothy says:
2 Timothy 1:10 (LEB) but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel,
Which supports my view that the only derived immortality is "through the Gospel".
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But they were 5-10 minutes of supposed prayer in the midst of clanging music. I thought I was at a Beach Boys concert. He didn't have a clue about the place of prayer in revival, even though he mentioned the name of David Brainerd, revivalist, and missionary to the American Indians.
That's off topic.
What do you think are definitive biblical passages to demonstrate that all human beings have a soul/spirit?
Oz
You mean to say that you are wanting to discuss this topic and you don't know the false teaching of the annihilation of the wicked. I'm shocked!
You might like to be brought up to speed with the content of my articles dealing with annihilation, since you expressed lack of knowledge of this topic:
- Do evil doers experience eternal destruction or annihilation at death?
- Does eternal destruction mean annihilation for unbelievers at death?
Please tell me what is the meaning of the Greek, ἀπολέσαι, in Matt 10:28 (SBLGNT).
Oz
My approx 50 years as an extensive student of Scripture has shown me that both believers and unbelievers live beyond the last breath we breathe. We are composed of 2 parts, the body that goes into the gave to rot or to the crematorium to be turned to instantaneous dust (Eccl 12:7 ESV).
The other part is the unseen soul/spirit that departs to be with God in the place he has designated for the Intermediate State . It is Hades for the unbeliever (Luke 16:19-31 ESV) and Paradise for the believer (Lk 23:43 ESV; 2 Cor 5:8 ESV).
I reject your straw man that only 2 verses have taught me the biblical teaching of the immortality of the soul. That's a false and provocative claim against me.
Oz
chessman
Member
It means to destroy in English.
apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely(note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm
Okay, I agree.
But the question I asked you is not about the lost living beyond their last breath. It's about the lost being immortal (not mortal). Without the lost being given immortality (which is victory over death via Christ), I just don't see (Biblically speaking) their souls living (or their bodies breathing) beyond the destruction of both soul and body in Hell.
Christ brought to light life and immortality through the Gospel, He did not give immortality to those who are ashamed of the Gospel.
Okay, I agree.
It's not a strawman. I asked you what verses say that the lost derive their immortality since I don't know of any that do. Especially given what Paul says in Romans and 2 Timothy about immortality. It seems immortality is for the saved, not the lost given my study.
Those were the two verses you posted in response. I'm not asking you to defend a position you do not hold. I'm asking you to post the Scripture(s) that taught you that the lost gain immortality. The immortality of the lost is not found in 2 Timothy. The immortality of those who find victory in Christ Jesus is taught their (and many other passages). But not for the lost. Nor is it taught in Eccl 12:7 or Matt 25. If you think it is, please show how exactly.
chessman
Member
Are you sure Eccl 3:21 is God teaching the immortality of unbelievers?
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (LEB) For the fate of humans and the fate of the beast is the same. The death of the one is like the death of the other, for both are mortal. Man has no advantage over the beast, for both are fleeting. Both go to one place—both came from dust and both return to dust.