The sun shall be darkened...

[smaller]

For your consideration:
The verse cited above - from Young's Literal Translation - is an example of apocalyptic language intended to communicate - through the use of hyperbole - how terrible the "great tribulation" Jerusalem would face in 70 AD was going to be.

Christ, in keeping with the tradition of the O.T. prophets, is using the same language they used whenever prophesying of God's judgment coming on a people. Here are some examples:

None of this language is to be taken literally: it is hyperbole intended to express the horrors of falling under the wrathful hand of God.

Christ is expressing EXACTLY the same thing to His audience when He uses these same words!

For what it's worth.

Few see in this way, but I agree with your statement, at least in part.

The difficulty then becomes applicable understandings.

I say in part, because even thought the statements are allegorical in nature i.e. to be spiritually understood, does not mean that tribulations are not literal/physical 'in some way.'

s

 

[Sinthesis]

So what blood type do you suppose the moon will literally become? I suspect type O- as Jesus is the universal donor, but I imagine the hyper-Calvinist would disagree. Transubstantiation on the cosmic scale.;)

1Cr 8:9 - But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.​

I understand that some Christians still need their idea of miracles to be a hollywood special effects laden extravaganza. And that's OK, until it becomes a litmus test for believers. The only miracles that must be beyond debate for Believers are the Incarnation and Resurrection.

Gal 5:25 - If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 - Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.​

 

[smaller]

So what blood type do you suppose the moon will literally become? I suspect type O- as Jesus is the universal donor, but I imagine the hyper-Calvinist would disagree. Transubstantiation on the cosmic scale.;)

1Cr 8:9 - But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.​

I understand that some Christians still need their idea of miracles to be a hollywood special effects laden extravaganza. And that's OK, until it becomes a litmus test for believers. The only miracles that must be beyond debate for Believers are the Incarnation and Resurrection.

Gal 5:25 - If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 - Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.​

Just for kicks, meaning I'll put this out as my own spiritual speculation, the moon 'can be' an allegory for the workings of darkness. Why the moon? Because it sheds a false or reflected light and not a real one, and it does so in the darkness.

The moon turning to blood places that operation in mankind, where 'blood' is.

As to the sun portion, at the time of the finality (again not turning this into any kind of trib. view) mankind at the end will know beyond all doubt where the working of darkness is 'in full' when that Light of His Words shine in truth, and that DAY will be DARKNESS just as the opening poster cited...the Day of the Lord will be darkness...even thick darkness.

These of course are speaking of spiritual matters and as such they have many flavoring correlatives to those who are perpetually fascinated with such terms in the text, as I have been for a long time.

When observed in these ways (spiritually understood) The Lord does 'telegraph' His Workings to observable, present form activity because the dynamic has not really changed since the beginning and God still operates today just as He did from the beginning of man.

s

 

[warhorse]

So what blood type do you suppose the moon will literally become? I suspect type O- as Jesus is the universal donor, but I imagine the hyper-Calvinist would disagree. Transubstantiation on the cosmic scale.;)

1Cr 8:9 - But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
​

I understand that some Christians still need their idea of miracles to be a hollywood special effects laden extravaganza. And that's OK, until it becomes a litmus test for believers. The only miracles that must be beyond debate for Believers are the Incarnation and Resurrection.

Gal 5:25 - If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 - Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
​

I am always suprised by the people here that leap to spiritualising scripture but its easy to do and requires no real factual basis. Certainly there is room for some symbolism, most accept blood there to represent the color (red) rather than actual blood, but given that the scriptures show the darkening of the sun to be a past event on multiple accasions im not sure why one would look for a metephorical fullfillment of such prophacy.

 

[Lehigh3]

So from what I can see here the sun is going to go dark (It's not expected to die for billions of more years) and stars (Which are gases) are going to "fall" unto the Earth? The Sun is considered a very small star and assuming we wouldn't be scorched by it getting too close to us it would pull the earth into it and then we'd be scorched.

Thank you. Phew! I cannot imagine why anyone, at any time, when interpreting the apocalyptic language used by the prophets , would take the sun, moon & stars & all the cosmic & terrestrial convulsions, LITERALLY! ;)

 

[Stormcrow]

Why didn't you highlight this one?

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

He was still talking to the disciples when He said this.

Who's the "ye" in this verse???

{28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

I don't think it can be any plainer.

 

[Stormcrow]

Here's why the break you've put in the passage where you inserted your "uncomplete" is wrong. See that word "And" that repeats at the beginning of almost every verse there?

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
(70ad) and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Uncomplete)
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

And is a "coordinating conjunction." Here's how it functions:

AND

1. To suggest that one idea is chronologically sequential to another: "Tashonda sent in her applications and waited by the phone for a response."
2. To suggest that one idea is the result of another: "Willie heard the weather report and promptly boarded up his house."
3. To suggest that one idea is in contrast to another (frequently replaced by but in this usage): "Juanita is brilliant and Shalimar has a pleasant personality.
4. To suggest an element of surprise (sometimes replaced by yet in this usage): "Hartford is a rich city and suffers from many symptoms of urban blight."
5. To suggest that one clause is dependent upon another, conditionally (usually the first clause is an imperative): "Use your credit cards frequently and you'll soon find yourself deep in debt."
6. To suggest a kind of "comment" on the first clause: "Charlie became addicted to gambling — and that surprised no one who knew him."

The word "and" in the passage you cited from Luke indicates that every one of those verses is part of the same thought, one sentence flowing as the result of the one before it. Breaking the paragraph where you did destroys the context of the passage.

 

[warhorse]

Why didn't you highlight this one?



He was still talking to the disciples when He said this.

Who's the "ye" in this verse???

{28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

I don't think it can be any plainer.

I dont argue that the tribulation started in that time frame, only that the lord did not return then, and that the jews are not the focus of the tribulation. John did witness the return of the lord many times, as was reveiled in the book of Rev.

Here's why the break you've put in the passage where you inserted your "uncomplete" is wrong. See that word "And" that repeats at the beginning of almost every verse there?

And is a "coordinating conjunction." Here's how it functions:
The word "and" in the passage you cited from Luke indicates that every one of those verses is part of the same thought, one sentence flowing as the result of the one before it. Breaking the paragraph where you did destroys the context of the passage.

I did not suggest that those items were not sequential in nature, i suggested that the items after the until the times of the gentils were fullfilled was uncomplete. The until in that statement indicates that the items listed will not progress untill after the times of the gentils is complete.

 

[Sinthesis]

I did not suggest that those items were not sequential in nature, i suggested that the items after the until the times of the gentils were fullfilled was uncomplete. The until in that statement indicates that the items listed will not progress untill after the times of the gentils is complete.

What does "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" mean; exactly?

 

[warhorse]

What does "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" mean; exactly?

I dont believe that anyone could give an authoritive answer to that question, But i believe a combination of OT and NT scriptures tend to insinuate that it is a time period alloted by God so the Gentils can be exposed to the word of God for there redemption. The law was given to the hebrews to shed the light on the need for salvation, but until the death of Jesus that law, nor the Gospel of christ was available to the gentils. Given that the law was present to reveal the need to the hebrews for over 1300 years before the cross, a scant 40 year period from the cross to reveal the need and win the world full of gentils seems uncharectoristic of a God of love.

 

[reba]

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

 

[Stormcrow]

I dont believe that anyone could give an authoritive answer to that question

I can.

{7} I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. Daniel 12:7 (NASB)

The power of the holy people - the Jews - was completely shattered in 70AD: they lost their temple, their religion, and their homeland.

The siege of Jerusalem that destroyed the Jewish people and their nation lasted three-and-a-half years. John writes the same thing:

{5} There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. Revelation 13:5 (NASB)

Now, what events was Daniel seeing?

{1} "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. {2} "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2 (NASB)

This is the same chapter to which Christ alludes in Matthew 24 when He talks about the "abomination of desolation" (NOT Daniel 9:27!). Luke defines that phrase for us - using this same chapter - to refer to the armies that will surround Jerusalem: armies that will "shatter the power of the holy people."


Finally, there's that phrase again: "all these events." See how it comes in verse 7, but the events it describes come in verses 1-2? What's one of those events mentioned?


{2} "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2 (NASB)

This is a prophecy of the resurrection: a resurrection we see was reserved for Daniel and His people, the Jews.


Enough for now.

 

[warhorse]

I can.

{7} I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. Daniel 12:7 (NASB)

The power of the holy people - the Jews - was completely shattered in 70AD: they lost their temple, their religion, and their homeland.

The siege of Jerusalem that destroyed the Jewish people and their nation lasted three-and-a-half years. John writes the same thing:

{5} There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. Revelation 13:5 (NASB)

Now, what events was Daniel seeing?

{1} "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. {2} "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2 (NASB)

This is the same chapter to which Christ alludes in Matthew 24 when He talks about the "abomination of desolation" (NOT Daniel 9:27!). Luke defines that phrase for us - using this same chapter - to refer to the armies that will surround Jerusalem: armies that will "shatter the power of the holy people."


Finally, there's that phrase again: "all these events." See how it comes in verse 7, but the events it describes come in verses 1-2? What's one of those events mentioned?


{2} "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2 (NASB)

This is a prophecy of the resurrection: a resurrection we see was reserved for Daniel and His people, the Jews.


Enough for now.

Wow not one to leap without looking huh, storm. i fail to see any connection here to the question i was asked, about the fullness of the gentiles

 

[jasoncran]

funny do tell as today the jews still look to that promise.

i will say this. when the jews bury their dead they take soil from the mount of olives and place it on the casket. symbolising unity with all jews in death and when the messiah comes and raises them to live in isreal once again.

hmmm

 

[Lehigh3]

Wow not one to leap without looking huh, storm. i fail to see any connection here to the question i was asked, about the fullness of the gentiles

the trodden down of Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled in Luke 21:24 refers to the Romans 42 month siege of Jerusalem in AD67-70.

Then there is the reference to the Gentile believers:

Question: What is the "fullness" of the gentiles mentioned by Paul in Romans 11:25? Answer: The "fullness" mentioned in Romans 11:25 is the same "fullness" as mentioned in Romans 11:12, John 1:16, Colossians 1:19, Romans 15:29, and Ephesians 1:22-23. It is the fullness of the covenantal inheritance in Christ which came to the gentiles when they were included as co-heirs in the blessing of Abraham and his seed, Jesus.
By comparing "fullness" (Greek: "pleroma" - Strong's #4138) in Romans 11:25 to its parallel usage in Romans 11:11-12, we see that the term speaks of the "riches" and "salvation" that came to the gentile world through Christ. These riches came to the gentiles via the "diminishing" of some Jews that were blinded during Christ's incarnational ministry but that would later convert in order to obtain "fullness" (Rom 11:11-12,14-23), the fullness of being in the blessing of Abraham and Christ (Gal 3:7-9,14-17,26-29). Paul was one of these such Jews whose initial blindness had been converted (Rom 11:1; 1 Tim 1:12-16), and there were many more at that then-present time which would be converted like him (Rom 11:5; 2 Cor 3:14-16). These first-century Jews were called a "remnant," and, according to Paul, were like the few that constituted the true Nation of Israel during the time of apostasy under Isaiah and also Elijah (Rom 11:5; cf. Rom 11:1-5; 9:27-29). So, the meaning of "fullness" in Romans 11:25 becomes plain from looking at Romans 11:11-12:

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? (Rom 11:11-12)​

We see from this passage that "fullness" is the opposite reality to the "fall" and "diminishing" of some Jews, where "fall" and "diminishing" clearly mean the falling away from God's covenant, and "fullness" means the riches and salvation which come from being in covenant with Christ (see also: Rom 11:14-23).
The gentiles obtained this "fullness" (covenantal inheritance, salvation, and blessing) during St. Paul's ministry. In fact, Paul's entire ministry goal was to deliver this inheritance to the gentile populations (Acts 26:16-23; 20:32; 13:47; Rom 15:16,29; Eph 3:1-10; Rom 11:13; 2 Tim 1:11). Paul accomplished this mystery of God for the gentiles to become co-heirs with the Jews in Christ's New Covenant riches by the end of his lifetime (compare Acts 13:47/26:16-23/Eph 3:1-10 to 2 Tim 4:7,17). The Church is not still waiting for the gentiles to be offered up and approved by God (Rom 15:16) that they might obtain the fullness of inheritance and riches in Christ. The fullness of the gentiles came in no later than the completion of Paul's ministry.

 

[jasoncran]

guys the moon was almost red this morning here in florida. serious.

 

[Stormcrow]

guys the moon was almost red this morning here in florida. serious.

That's a natural phenomenon that occurs when dust and other particles in the atmosphere scatter blue light and allow the lower frequency red light through.

It's not a sign of the end of anything except a haze-free, smog-free day, pollen-free day.

 

[Stormcrow]

Wow not one to leap without looking huh, storm. i fail to see any connection here to the question i was asked, about the fullness of the gentiles

OK then, just to make it PERFECTLY clear, the "fullness of the gentiles" is set in the context of Luke's gospel where he writes this:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. {21} "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; {22}because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. {23} "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; {24} and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-23 (NASB)

When were the Jews slain by the sword? When was the last time they were led captive from Jerusalem? Has it happened since 70AD?

The "fullness of the Gentiles" in this context refers specifically to those events surrounding Jerusalem's siege and subsequent destruction by the Romans: a siege that lasted 3.5 years or 42 months!

 

[jasoncran]

That's a natural phenomenon that occurs when dust and other particles in the atmosphere scatter blue light and allow the lower frequency red light through.

It's not a sign of the end of anything except a haze-free, smog-free day, pollen-free day.

theres no fog nor smoke in the air. i know when we have fires , which we did have and the smell of it that in the air is strong as that can be pushed hundred miles a day. it wasnt an attempt to say that its a sign just that it happened today and yesterday. that is all. its rather common for me to see this here in the summer along with the lunar eclipse and lunar rings!

 

[Drew]

For your consideration:
The verse cited above - from Young's Literal Translation - is an example of apocalyptic language intended to communicate - through the use of hyperbole - how terrible the "great tribulation" Jerusalem would face in 70 AD was going to be.

Christ, in keeping with the tradition of the O.T. prophets, is using the same language they used whenever prophesying of God's judgment coming on a people. Here are some examples:

I agree entirely. One of the most damaging errors of modern evangelicalism is the failure to understand the Biblical tradition of using "end-of-the-world" language to express the theological significance of events that take place in the "political" domain.

Such language was never intended to be taken literally.