[_ Old Earth _] The surprising logical minds of babies

[Paloma]

Barbarian observes:

My major concern with it, is that many people wrongly think that creationism is an essential part of Christian belief. And that error drives many away from accepting Him. We should not needlessly put barriers in the way of people coming to God.


It's true. The real damage creationism does, is in making it difficult for people to come to God. The most difficult thing for creationists, is to understand that the Bible was never intended by God to be about the mechanisms of creation.

YE creationism tries to make a middle ground by changing His word a little, and changing science a little. But it won't work.

He didn't teach protons, or a spherical Earth, either. He didn't teach a lot of things that are true. His message is about God and us, and our relationship with Him.

That's what I just told you. If you truly believe, creationism probably won't harm your salvation. There are people who grow up being told that creationism is essential to Christian belief, and lose their faith when they learn that it can't possibly be true. But by putting off people who might otherwise have come to him, creationism does great damage.

Talk about horsefeathers! Barbarian you make some pretty outlandish claims here. Creationism does not make it difficult to come to God. Lol. What a silly thing to say. It makes it easier! You can trust your bible that it tells the truth and science backs it up ! The sense of contentment is well worth it.

YEC 's may not have all the answers but we are working out some great models given the lack of resources that we have. ( Just as EV's do) The Bible does not describe detailed mechanisms for either model, we have never asserted that it did. It says He made everything, both camps are working on the "details" of how. Why do you insist on just making things up? The Bible and evolution do not mix, and the world senses it. Evolution is truely the belief system that destroys peoples faith and draws generations in the abyss of disbelief.

If you don't believe me take a poll and see how many in today's world who follow evolution - follow Christ. Go to any university in the country and see how many real Chrisitians you have who hold to evolution. It can be done, but it's a world of confusion if you ask me.

 

[Barbarian]

Talk about horsefeathers! Barbarian you make some pretty outlandish claims here. Creationism does not make it difficult to come to God.

But it does.
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learned from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertions".
St. Augustine, The Literal Meaning of Genesis

Those who know that YE creationism cannot be true, and who are wrongly persuaded that creationism is an essential Christian doctrine, will turn away from it, as St. Augustine says. It also sometimes causes Christians to lose their faith.

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.


"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"


That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.
http://www.oldearth.org/whyileft.htm

 

[turnorburn]

I couldn't because of what I know. If I didn't understand science very well, or if I chose to ignore it in favor of a personal interpretation of the Bible, I could do that. And it wouldn't affect my salvation at all. You don't go to hell just for being a YE creationist.



It certainly is contrary to scripture, but it's not a salvation issue.

If its considered blaspheme then it most certainly is a salvation issue..

tob

 

[turnorburn]

But it does.
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learned from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertions".
St. Augustine, The Literal Meaning of Genesis

Those who know that YE creationism cannot be true, and who are wrongly persuaded that creationism is an essential Christian doctrine, will turn away from it, as St. Augustine says. It also sometimes causes Christians to lose their faith.

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.


"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"


That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.
http://www.oldearth.org/whyileft.htm

Everything is Augustine with you, why? he was just a man, learn from Jesus he's alive and well.. He's meek and lowly in heart and you will find rest for your soul..

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

tob

 

[turnorburn]

"And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist."

I've never heard a more ludicrous statement in my life, believing the bible as the literal word of God he was on the verge of becoming an atheist?

tob

 

[Barbarian]

Everything is Augustine with you, why?

I admire his humility, his love of God, and his willingness to follow the truth no matter where it goes. You should, too. God is truth; you should never fear the truth.

I suppose you missed my cites of St. Thomas Aquinas, and Paul? Actually, I think I've cited St. Paul more than anyone.

 

[Barbarian]

"And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist."

I've never heard a more ludicrous statement in my life,

Not only him, but many of his creationist associates working as geologists.

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either.

That is what comes of creationism.

 

[Eugene]

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

Hi Brother Barbarian, and this is the point I suppose I disagree with. People and science seem to know nothing concerning the origins of anything apart from God's word. To discern God's word pertaining to creation, they attempt to describe something they absolutely nothing about. How do we understand the power that tells us:
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Found any dinosaur bones affirming that? Was that too some form of evolution. We observe things, attempt to ascertain logic, and then think we have the answer. Am I wrong so far?

Next, I do believe in a form of evolution to some degree if natural selection is involved. During a severe drought there is little leafing of certain trees, and only the tallest animals survive to perpetuate the species in any given area, even though I do not believe they grow wings to reach the tallest branches.

Please allow me to post this scripture.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Is this saying that what you study to discover how God made certain things are a waste of time?

Lastly, I will tell the story of scientists telling God they know how to make man. First we take some dirt . . .
Wait a minute there - make your own dirt. I'm probably telling the story wrong and even tried to find it on Snopes without success.

 

[Edward]

Get Your Own Dirt
God was once approached by a scientist who said, “Listen God, we’ve decided we don’t need you anymore. These days we can clone people, transplant organs and do all sorts of things that used to be considered miraculous.”

God replied, “Don’t need me huh? How about we put your theory to the test. Why don’t we have a competition to see who can make a human being, say, a male human being.”

The scientist agrees, so God declares they should do it like he did in the good old days when he created Adam.

“Fine” says the scientist as he bends down to scoop up a handful of dirt.”

“Whoa!” says God, shaking his head in disapproval. “Not so fast. You get your own dirt.”

http://storiesforpreaching.com/get-your-own-dirt/

 

[Barbarian]

St. Augustine writes:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

Hi Brother Barbarian, and this is the point I suppose I disagree with. People and science seem to know nothing concerning the origins of anything apart from God's word.

We know the origin of the Atlantic Ocean, the Himalayas, and birds. We can talk about them, if you like.

To discern God's word pertaining to creation, they attempt to describe something they absolutely nothing about.

I'd be pleased to show you how we know.

How do we understand the power that tells us:
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Good example. It appears that our particular universe began with a sudden expansion, of space, with nothing in it but energy (light). The Big Bang was first proposed by a Catholic priest, and the evidence we've since found verifies his prediction. It's also consistent with God's word.

Found any dinosaur bones affirming that? Was that too some form of evolution.

Evolutionary theory is about the way living populations change over time. That's all it's good for. Sorry.

We observe things, attempt to ascertain logic, and then think we have the answer.

The logic is inductive, so it's based on observation, from which we draw inferences about the rules that make things work. That might seem a bit weak, but there's nothing that works better for understanding the physical universe. The supernatural, however, is beyond the reach of science.

Next, I do believe in a form of evolution to some degree if natural selection is involved. During a severe drought there is little leafing of certain trees, and only the tallest animals survive to perpetuate the species in any given area, even though I do not believe they grow wings to reach the tallest branches.

Good. Many creationists think evolution is trees getting wings or dogs turning into horses.

Please allow me to post this scripture.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Is this saying that what you study to discover how God made certain things are a waste of time?

It means that trying to use science to do that is a waste of time. Science is a rather limited method. Fortunately, there are other ways of knowing.

Lastly, I will tell the story of scientists telling God they know how to make man. First we take some dirt . . .
Wait a minute there - make your own dirt. I'm probably telling the story wrong and even tried to find it on Snopes without success.

It's not real. It's a story some ignorant person wrote, supposing that science or scientists are challenging God.

 

[turnorburn]

Science "Is" challenging God, science is just another man made venture take the world wide flood for example and why science and evolutionists can't have it, denying a world wide flood just furthers their theories. i found a video but you don't watch videos, at least not when they conflict with your theories.. One video made by Donald W. Patten proved the flood but you wanted nothing to do with it "Not the other Donald Patten" as you kept inferring..

tob

 

[Eugene]

St. Augustine writes:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.



We know the origin of the Atlantic Ocean, the Himalayas, and birds. We can talk about them, if you like.



I'd be pleased to show you how we know.



Good example. It appears that our particular universe began with a sudden expansion, of space, with nothing in it but energy (light). The Big Bang was first proposed by a Catholic priest, and the evidence we've since found verifies his prediction. It's also consistent with God's word.



Evolutionary theory is about the way living populations change over time. That's all it's good for. Sorry.



The logic is inductive, so it's based on observation, from which we draw inferences about the rules that make things work. That might seem a bit weak, but there's nothing that works better for understanding the physical universe. The supernatural, however, is beyond the reach of science.



Good. Many creationists think evolution is trees getting wings or dogs turning into horses.



It means that trying to use science to do that is a waste of time. Science is a rather limited method. Fortunately, there are other ways of knowing.



It's not real. It's a story some ignorant person wrote, supposing that science or scientists are challenging God.

Thanks for your reply. Yes I'd like to see you replicate the origin of light, and even a mini-universe, create a man, and all this by speaking it into existence. I suppose my next proof to my neighbors is when I park a new car on my lawn, and wait for their question: where'd that car come from? I'll politely say I heard a big bang, and poof; here it is. What year did this sudden expansion of our universe occur?
I hope you realize I'm just pulling your leg since I really do not believe in a science of deductive reasoning. Unless they can produce the same results, to me they are blowing smoke. I suppose that when science with their soothsayers can predict the weather exactly for even one month of winter storms in New York for instance, I'll start giving them some credibility. surely with all the practice they have with reality they can have more credibility that science telling me how God created everything.

 

[Edward]

Sometimes I wonder if when Jesus said let there be light, there was a big bang and then light came into being...?

 

[Edward]

Back to the OP...I like that video. I've seen it long ago and liked their experiment.

The moral of the story is that we can learn from babies and children by observing them and interacting with them. People usually don't give babies and kids enough credit. I love asking kids questions that are typically a more adultish type question to hear their answer. Kids can come out with some very wise perspectives at times because they haven't been taught to shut down their reasoning yet, lol. Really. They say that only two types of people can understand hyperspaces, mathematicians with special training...and children.

Thankee Sparrow man, for the vid!

 

[Barbarian]

Thanks for your reply. Yes I'd like to see you replicate the origin of light, and even a mini-universe, create a man, and all this by speaking it into existence.

As I said, science doesn't do that. But of course we can know the origins of various things, because of the way He created them. Birds, for example.

I suppose my next proof to my neighbors is when I park a new car on my lawn, and wait for their question: where'd that car come from? I'll politely say I heard a big bang, and poof; here it is. What year did this sudden expansion of our universe occur?

Sorry, time, as we think of it, didn't exist then. Only after. Have you read "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe." C.S. Lewis explained the difference between God and a creature by comparing Aslan to the Witch. She understood, he wrote, the magic at the beginning, but not the deep magic just before the beginning. That's the best we'll ever be able to do with science.

I hope you realize I'm just pulling your leg since I really do not believe in a science of deductive reasoning.

That's good. Science is inductive. Deductive reasoning is when we have all the rules in front of us, and figure out the particulars from the rules. Science observes the particulars and figures out the rules.

Unless they can produce the same results, to me they are blowing smoke. I suppose that when science with their soothsayers can predict the weather exactly for even one month of winter storms in New York for instance, I'll start giving them some credibility.

The argument that we can't know anything, unless we know everything, has never been a very good one.

 

[Barbarian]

Pretty good, except it wasn't actually a bang. But that was what the scientist who first proposed it, was thinking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

 

[Eugene]

As I said, science doesn't do that. But of course we can know the origins of various things, because of the way He created them. Birds, for example.

Sorry, time, as we think of it, didn't exist then. Only after. Have you read "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe." C.S. Lewis explained the difference between God and a creature by comparing Aslan to the Witch. She understood, he wrote, the magic at the beginning, but not the deep magic just before the beginning. That's the best we'll ever be able to do with science.

That's good. Science is inductive. Deductive reasoning is when we have all the rules in front of us, and figure out the particulars from the rules. Science observes the particulars and figures out the rules.

The argument that we can't know anything, unless we know everything, has never been a very good one.

Glad you explained that deductive/inductive reasoning.
Wow brother, without proof, and excuses instead of fact, do you reckon this bird evolution will ever catch on? I'm still at the point of thinking if I flap my arms enough feathers will begin to appear. I haven't read the book "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe." I will listen to your explanation of how God created the bird though, and I did see the movie "Jurassic Park." That creature that ate Wayne Knight was pretty intimidating. Did those fins on its head turn into wings?

And then there was this whole flock of bird-wanna-be's.

Can you forecast weather?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Very cool. Kids are amazing.

 

[Sparkey]

Back to the OP

Interesting thought, Edward. But we are in the 'Christianity and Science' forum where the only possible discussion is evolutionary.

 

[Sparkey]

Perhaps you, like me, enjoy learning terms. Terms such as the "Vygotskian hypothesis".
If so, you may also enjoy reading this article about Dichotomistic Logic and the feral, bifold mind.