Bible Study The theif on the cross

[Merry Menagerie]

Hey I have a question for everyone.

It says in the bible that Jesus told the theif....

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Can I ask please why he said that when Jesus didn't actually ascend to heaven until 3 days later? He went to the grave that day.

Does paradise mean heaven or grave in this scripture?

And does 'Today' mean today or 3 days later?

 

[Khristeeanos]

Hey I have a question for everyone.

It says in the bible that Jesus told the theif....

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Can I ask please why he said that when Jesus didn't actually ascend to heaven until 3 days later? He went to the grave that day.

Does paradise mean heaven or grave in this scripture?

And does 'Today' mean today or 3 days later?

Maybe paradise doesn't mean heaven?

 

[irishrain]

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Does paradise mean heaven or grave in this scripture?

paradise Greek for 3857

Pronunciation Guide
paradeisos {par-ad'-i-sos}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 5:765,777 of Oriental origin cf 06508
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters

2) a garden, pleasure ground

a) grove, park

3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

5) heaven

If you know where he went, then maybe your question will be answered.
--------------

Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison or accross the Gulf(Luke16:26)

Before Jesus died on the cross all those in the past that had died did not have an opportunity to accept salvation. He went to those unsaved, unbelievers and preached to them.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/AP/ap194.pdf

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hey I have a question for everyone.

It says in the bible that Jesus told the theif....

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Can I ask please why he said that when Jesus didn't actually ascend to heaven until 3 days later? He went to the grave that day.

This is why we really need to understand this quotation of Jesus. You're absolutely right that Jesus didn't ascend to heaven on that day. But wasn't His ascension to heaven WAY beyond three days? Wasn't it more like 40 days? Remember, Jesus told Mary (three days after the crucifixion) that He hadn't yet ascended to His Father. We're told that Jesus remained on earth until that final time when He 'said goodbye' to the disciples and ascended to heaven.

Does paradise mean heaven or grave in this scripture?

The name 'Paradise' in the Bible is always synonymous with heaven. There is no reason to apply it to the grave unless attempting to somehow 'make the pieces fit.' This would then give the word an unscriptural definition.

And does 'Today' mean today or 3 days later?

I believe this simply means that, as from today, your salvation is assured. It will still be realized at a future time (Christ's second coming) but the thief can rest assured that his salvation is guaranteed as from right now ...TODAY.

There are some that propose that the comma should be placed after the word 'Today' instead of after the word 'thee'. This would make the passage read more like it. I don't necessarily hold to that view but it could be a plausible explanation. Punctuation was not God-inspired but was placed there by man. There was no punctuation in the original text. Anyway, I don't think that it really matters.

Something else to consider. The thief didn't die that day. He was removed from the cross after having his legs broken because of the approaching Sabbath. No point breaking his legs if he's already dead.

 

[SputnikBoy]

[irishrain]

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Quote:
Does paradise mean heaven or grave in this scripture?

paradise Greek for 3857

Pronunciation Guide
paradeisos {par-ad'-i-sos}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 5:765,777 of Oriental origin cf 06508
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters

2) a garden, pleasure ground

a) grove, park

3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

5) heaven

There are three times that the term ‘paradise’ is used. All three are found in the NT. Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7. In each case, paradise is synonymous with heaven, i.e. paradeisos: an Eden, a place of future happiness. Paradise is where God resides. It does not and CANNOT refer to the grave as those three scriptures clearly demonstrate.

If you know where he went, then maybe your question will be answered.
--------------

Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison or across the Gulf (Luke16:26)

This is the parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus and has nothing to do with the time of the Crucifixion. There is nothing remotely suggesting that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison or across the Gulf. There is a thread presently running concerning the Rich Man & Lazarus.

Before Jesus died on the cross all those in the past that had died did not have an opportunity to accept salvation. He went to those unsaved, unbelievers and preached to them.

Sorry, but this is absolutely and unequivocally untrue.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

This has been taken out of context. This passage is referring to the antediluvians (those prior to Noah’s flood) to whom the gospel of Jesus Christ (through Noah) was preached. The people are, in this case, referred to as ‘spirits’ (human, the rational soul) who were imprisoned in their sinful nature or condition. They didn’t heed the message of Noah and so they were destroyed as a consequence. Read the entire passage with this new definition in mind and it will all fit into place.

1Pe 4:6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Ah yes, but you’re reading it incorrectly. Let us look at it again. This passage is still referring to the antediluvians. For this cause (the gift of salvation) was the gospel preached also to them that are (now, presently) dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. They (those referred to) were obviously alive at the time the message was preached but are now (the time the passage was written) long dead.

Though the language and style used in these passages is somewhat archaic it is in no way meant to suggest that the gospel was preached to dead people.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Gosh I'm confused even more ROFL!!!

Anyone else want to give it a shot?

 

[guibox]

I agree with most of what SputnikBoy said with the exception of a few things:

1) It most definitely was a punctuation problem as this usage of the phrase 'I say unto you today' in some variation or another is continually used throughout the bible for emphatic purposes. This was no exception as the rest of scripture shows the opposite cannot be true.

2) 1st Peter 4:6 is not even talking about physical death folks but 'being dead in your sins'. You cannot 'be judged in the flesh by man' and 'live in the spirit' if you are dead. Instead we see this jive with Paul's continual exhoration for us to 'die to sin' 'live according to the spirit'.

We must take things in context folks.

 

[irishrain]

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

This has been taken out of context. This passage is referring to the antediluvians (those prior to Noah’s flood) to whom the gospel of Jesus Christ (through Noah) was preached. The people are, in this case, referred to as ‘spirits’ (human, the rational soul) who were imprisoned in their sinful nature or condition. They didn’t heed the message of Noah and so they were destroyed as a consequence. Read the entire passage with this new definition in mind and it will all fit into place.

The Subject matter was Salvation here in Peter. No one has died yet in the 2nd death Rev 20:14 which is death of the soul. The 1st death is death of the fesh.

Sub was salvation which follows threw.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Jesus Christ hadn't paid the price yet. And once He did pay that price they were now able to was h their robes in the blood of the Lamb. No one could wash their robes in the blood of Lamb when there was no blood, could they?

I Pet 3:19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

"By which" continues from vs 18 and means in the condition of the spirit, not flesh.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Those before Christ were disobedient, or disbelieving. Peter is talking about all the people all the way back to the beginning, but gives the example of Noah's time to draw the analogy in the next vs to water and baptism and the ark of salvation.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism will not stop you from sinning, but through the death and resurretion of Jesus Christ you can be made clean.
Where's Christ now?

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[guibox]

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Jesus Christ hadn't paid the price yet. And once He did pay that price they were now able to was h their robes in the blood of the Lamb. No one could wash their robes in the blood of Lamb when there was no blood, could they?

I Pet 3:19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

"By which" continues from vs 18 and means in the condition of the spirit, not flesh.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Those before Christ were disobedient, or disbelieving. Peter is talking about all the people all the way back to the beginning, but gives the example of Noah's time to draw the analogy in the next vs to water and baptism and the ark of salvation.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism will not stop you from sinning, but through the death and resurretion of Jesus Christ you can be made clean.
Where's Christ now?

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

You are missing the fundamental focus of the texts: the power of the Spirit.

Peter is not trying to describe some sort of afterlife meeting between Christ and souls. It is emphasising the Spirit's role.

Christ was raised by the Spirit

BY WHICH (the same Spirit)

the souls (translated people in the scriptures, not disembodied dead folks) were preached to through Noah (by the Spirit)

now look at verse 21

"The like figure (*'the same spirit') where unto even baptism doth also now save us (*we are 'born of the Spirit, born again), (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (*Of which the Spirit was a part of)

(*=guibox's comments)

Folks, this entire passage is NOT a sermon on the state of salvation of dead people.

 

[irishrain]

Peter is not trying to describe some sort of afterlife meeting between Christ and souls. It is emphasising the Spirit's role.

Do you understand Luke 16 Lazarus and the rich man? About the gulf, what its like in heaven? Believers, saved on one side and the ungodly on the other side?

the souls (translated people in the scriptures, not disembodied dead folks) were preached to through Noah (by the Spirit)

Granted Noah was a preacher. 2 Pet 2:5

But Noah could not save those souls( Holy Spirit useing him) that were unbelievers, the ungodly, unsaved after they died this Flesh age and went to heaven.

So do you think it would be fair for just us from the time Christ died on the cross up till now, to be the only ones offered salvation?

 

[guibox]

So do you think it would be fair for just us from the time Christ died on the cross up till now, to be the only ones offered salvation?

The whole point of the sacrificial service was 'saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah'. Christ doesn't need to go back and 'save' everybody. Technically, His sacrifice did that already.

People in the OT were either saved or lost the same we are: by accepting forgiveness of sins through Yahweh's grace.

The problem is that this all assumes that the 'souls' in prison are alive. The Bible makes no such distinction at all, and the OT is quite clear that those who die have no knowledge, life, and consciousness.

How can Christ go and preach to those who are dead and in Sheol (both wicked and righteous?) No they had their choice and their judgement will be the at the same time as the righteous: at the resurrection. (Daniel 12:1,2)

 

[irishrain]

The problem is that this all assumes that the 'souls' in prison are alive. The Bible makes no such distinction at all, and the OT is quite clear that those who die have no knowledge, life, and consciousness.

So where does it say that those who have died have no knowledge, life, and consciousness?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
at that time is the end of the great Tribulation.Mtt 24:21, Mark 13:19,

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

To sleep in the dust 0f the earth is a figure of Speech. Satan the Serpent was told the same thing in:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Do you think Satan is dead yet?

Because no one has died the 2nd death yet. The Great While throne Judgement isn't till the end of the millinnium ( Lords Day). Rev 20:11-15

In Rev 11:13 There are 7000 of Satan's fallin angels that do die at the 7th trumph. But no one else, even satan dies till Rev 20:10, which is at the end of the Lords day.

 

[SputnikBoy]

The problem is that this all assumes that the 'souls' in prison are alive. The Bible makes no such distinction at all, and the OT is quite clear that those who die have no knowledge, life, and consciousness.

So where does it say that those who have died have no knowledge, life, and consciousness?

Try Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

 

[irishrain]

Hi, This whole book is talking about only the flesh body, the man that lives under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."

To be joined to all the living, means that there is still life to your flesh body.
As long as you are in the flesh, there is hope for forgiveness, and the things of flesh still applies to you. But at death, you are separated from the living, and your soul is no longer part of this flesh age, nor any thing that applies to it. The flesh is dust of the earth, and your soul and spirit has passed on to the higher level of thinking, where faith doesn't apply. There is no longer hope in Christ, for you are there in His presence, the hope of your salvation is applied while you are in the flesh body, for you take what is sight unseen, and place your existence upon that faith.

The whole idea that it was evil that both the righteous and wicked would die, and it didn't make any difference was man's thought. Because when God considers your work for Him done in this flesh life, you don't die, only the flesh dies. This is true wisdom, understanding the death of the flesh, but not of the soul.

Looking at the dog and the lion, considers only the life within each animal. In the animal world the lion is considered at the top, while the dog is at the bottom. It is looking at life within the animal; when the spirit life is gone, then the flesh is worthless because it contains no life. It was the life that made the animal of value.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

When any person dies, they are through with this old flesh body, and it has only one purpose, to be placed in the ground to decay. The body returns to dust. The precious person that you once knew has departed that physical body at death, and went immediately to be with the Father that sent that soul into the embryo at conception. It was the soul and the spirit of the person that you loved, and not the flesh.

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust(flesh) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Hi Merry. Here is your quote:

Hey I have a question for everyone.

"It says in the bible that Jesus told the theif....

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Can I ask please why he said that when Jesus didn't actually ascend to heaven until 3 days later? He went to the grave that day.

Does paradise mean heaven or grave in this scripture?

And does 'Today' mean today or 3 days later?"

While others may have similar comments, here are mine:

First of all I must say that while dictionary definitions can be useful, the final meaning of words must be as they are used in the Scripture.

Take, "paradise". It's true it has an Oriental origin, which the Greeks borrowed from the Persians. Paradise means a garden, a park, or an enclosure full of valuable products of the earth.

Paradise is used only three times in the NT: Luke 23:43; 2 Cor.12:5; and Rev.2:7. While the word "paradise" is not used in the Hebrew Scriptures, it was used quite often in the Greek translation, called the Septuagent.
In Genesis 2 and 3, the garden of Eden was called the Paradise of Eden. In Isaiah the land of Israel during the 1000 year reign of Christ, is said to be like the Paradise of the Lord (Isa. 51:1-5).

In the passaqe in question, we must first look at what the thief asked. He said "Be reminded of me, Lord, whenever thou mayest be coming into Thy kingdom." CV. And, when will Jesus, as Lord, be coming into His kingdom?
When He returns in power and great glory to establish His millennial reign.
And since Israel and Jerusalem will become a Paradise, with beautiful gardens and lands, this is where the thief will be after his resurrection.

As someone pointed out, there were no punctuations is the originals. And, also, the phrase "I tell you today" is a Hebraism used for emphasis.

Thus, the conclusion: Both the thief and Jesus died and only the Lord was resurrected three days later.

Bick

 

[guibox]

But at death, you are separated from the living, and your soul is no longer part of this flesh age, nor any thing that applies to it. The flesh is dust of the earth, and your soul and spirit has passed on to the higher level of thinking, where faith doesn't apply.

This is an assumption that you can't not only get from the text, but that also flies in the face of Hebrew thinking on the soul and the afterlife. This is Greek dualism, not Hebrew/Christian/Biblical theology.

The whole idea that it was evil that both the righteous and wicked would die, and it didn't make any difference was man's thought. Because when God considers your work for Him done in this flesh life, you don't die, only the flesh dies. This is true wisdom, understanding the death of the flesh, but not of the soul...It was the soul and the spirit of the person that you loved, and not the flesh.

Your problem is that the OT does NOT make a distinction between 'body and soul' A soul is a nephesh, a living person where the thoughts, feelings and spirituality of a person reside.

Now...

Ecclesiastes says that there is no 'wisdom' in the grave and that 'all our thoughts perish' and it is also stated that 'the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing'. If the soul is the thinking, feeling essence of man, then it redundant to say that these verses speak only of the body because the body is NONE of these things.

Hence it would be the SOUL that dies (Ezekiel 18:20) and not merely the body. All consciousness, existence, knowledge and awareness (the 'soul' as traditional thinking would call it) is what perishes when man dies.

The body is merely the shell. It doesn't contain these functions. Your own traditional definitions destroys your arguments when compared to scriptures.

In Daniel 12:1, the Hebrews believed in the resurrection to life at the second coming of Christ (correspond with Matthew 5:28,29). Then and only then is 'death swallowed up in victory' and the sting of death is taken away (1 Corinthians 15:51-55). It is not talking about merely the body but the whole man!

You cannot get around this constant thought that permeates throughout the entire OT and NT:

Without the resurrection of man at the end of time, there is NO eternal life in any shape or form

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: The thief on the cross

Hi Merry. Here is your quote:

Hey I have a question for everyone.

"It says in the bible that Jesus told the theif....

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Can I ask please why he said that when Jesus didn't actually ascend to heaven until 3 days later? He went to the grave that day.

Does paradise mean heaven or grave in this scripture?

And does 'Today' mean today or 3 days later?"

While others may have similar comments, here are mine:

First of all I must say that while dictionary definitions can be useful, the final meaning of words must be as they are used in the Scripture.

Take, "paradise". It's true it has an Oriental origin, which the Greeks borrowed from the Persians. Paradise means a garden, a park, or an enclosure full of valuable products of the earth.

Paradise is used only three times in the NT: Luke 23:43; 2 Cor.12:5; and Rev.2:7. While the word "paradise" is not used in the Hebrew Scriptures, it was used quite often in the Greek translation, called the Septuagent.
In Genesis 2 and 3, the garden of Eden was called the Paradise of Eden. In Isaiah the land of Israel during the 1000 year reign of Christ, is said to be like the Paradise of the Lord (Isa. 51:1-5).

In the passaqe in question, we must first look at what the thief asked. He said "Be reminded of me, Lord, whenever thou mayest be coming into Thy kingdom." CV. And, when will Jesus, as Lord, be coming into His kingdom?
When He returns in power and great glory to establish His millennial reign.
And since Israel and Jerusalem will become a Paradise, with beautiful gardens and lands, this is where the thief will be after his resurrection.

As someone pointed out, there were no punctuations is the originals. And, also, the phrase "I tell you today" is a Hebraism used for emphasis.

Thus, the conclusion: Both the thief and Jesus died and only the Lord was resurrected three days later.

Bick

Yet another variation of this scripture and one that makes scriptural sense. Thanks Bick.

 

[irishrain]

guibox wrote:

Hence it would be the SOUL that dies (Ezekiel 18:20) and not merely the body. All consciousness, existence, knowledge and awareness (the 'soul' as traditional thinking would call it) is what perishes when man dies.

No souls have died yet!

There are two deaths, first is death of the flesh, second is death of the soul. Death of the soul is not till the end of the Lords day.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Sea Rev 17:15 are people
The sea is the massive number of mortal souls that follow Satan. These are those souls who did not overcome.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
This "second death" is also the final death, death of the soul, they are blotted out.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Without the resurrection of man at the end of time, there is NO eternal life in any shape or form.

There are two resurrections. If you are a overcomer, your soul is resurrected into eternal soul. If your not an overcomer you will have a Mortal soul.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Though their flesh bodies are in the tombs and have decayed, millions of Christian brothers and sisters have lost their lives for the witness of Jesus Christ over the past two thousand years. Also receiving rewards are those that have not bowed to the Antichrist in the period of deception coming up shortly, nor did they take his mark through the deception, nor accepted his ways (image) in their minds.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

"the rest of the dead"? The difference in taking part in the first resurrection or not taking part is whether, is hinged on whether or not they were deceived by the Antichrist.

If you are saved and make a stand against the Antichrist and his deceptions, you will reign with Christ 1,000 years.

Those who did take the "mark of the beast", their souls will not, will not have eternal spiritual life, they have MORTAL souls.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Georges]

Here is a link to an interesting (early Christian) work called the "Acts of Pilate", or "The Gospel of Nicodemus......

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... demus.html

This whole book is an interesting read....gives an account of Christ's trial before pilate, the crucifixtion and if you scroll further down the descent to hell as given by Nicodemus' two son's who were risen from the dead as a result of the crucifixion. It is an interesting read that provides insight on how the early church fathers percieved Paradise.....

 

[noblej6]

Hi Irish,

When any person dies, they are through with this old flesh body, and it has only one purpose, to be placed in the ground to decay. The body returns to dust. The precious person that you once knew has departed that physical body at death, and went immediately to be with the Father that sent that soul into the embryo at conception. It was the soul and the spirit of the person that you loved, and not the flesh.

I like that , but you are only refferring to believers, right?

noble6