Bible Study The theif on the cross

[protos]

Not to revive this dead old thread but I have a comment.

First of all the ancient greeks believed the soul was material and described pretty much the way you have.

Second of all, if the soul was just the body then that wouldn't explain the prisoners Christ had to free in the 3 days that he was in the tomb. It also would mean that God didn't exist in the Old Testament.

Your examples as to OT citations to the soul do really mean in the context of people, but since these people are alive and have souls they are referred to as souls in a figurative way.

The period between resurrection and The Second Coming of Christ does not necessarily uphold that the body itself is the soul, since when we sleep we are unconsciouss yet we're not dead.

Remember, the greeks upheld that the soul was material and was the body as you claim, and if they somehow tarnished Eastern Orthodoxy with their belief, then they must have tarnished the rest of Christianity since The Scriptures were translated by greeks in greek. If you're suggesting that as time went on the Eastern Orthodox church adopted new concepts, then I would have to ask you where and when.

 

[guibox]

Not to revive this dead old thread but I have a comment.

First of all the ancient greeks believed the soul was material and described pretty much the way you have.

Second of all, if the soul was just the body then that wouldn't explain the prisoners Christ had to free in the 3 days that he was in the tomb. It also would mean that God didn't exist in the Old Testament.

Your examples as to OT citations to the soul do really mean in the context of people, but since these people are alive and have souls they are referred to as souls in a figurative way.

The period between resurrection and The Second Coming of Christ does not necessarily uphold that the body itself is the soul, since when we sleep we are unconsciouss yet we're not dead.

Remember, the greeks upheld that the soul was material and was the body as you claim, and if they somehow tarnished Eastern Orthodoxy with their belief, then they must have tarnished the rest of Christianity since The Scriptures were translated by greeks in greek. If you're suggesting that as time went on the Eastern Orthodox church adopted new concepts, then I would have to ask you where and when.

I'm not sure which Greek history you have been studying, protos, but the Greeks like Plato, Aristotle etc believed in the dualism of man, that the flesh was material but the soul immortal.

As for Christ preaching to the souls in prison, this text is taken completely out of context and key words and phrases are ignored for preconceived ideas that the text does not say.

1) It does say 'souls' but nowhere does it say that this is 'souls outside the body', but 'people', hence the body.

2) The OT makes it quite clear that the dead 'know not anything' (Ecclesiastes 9:5), hence they cannot be alive waiting for Christ to preach to them

3) It mentions the Spirit raising Christ

4) It mentions 'preaching through the Spirit'

5) It mentions 'in the days of Noah'

What this text is emphasising is the power of the Spirit. "By this same Spirit Christ preached to the souls in prison as in the days of Noah'

Those that were lost in sin (prisoners) were preached to though Noah by this same Spirit that raised Christ.

It has nothing to do with Christ going to 'hell' to preach to lost souls. If it were, then it would be strictly for those that died during the flood and not for anyone else who died in the OT.

One must truly look at the context when interpreting a passage like this.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Hey I have a question for everyone.

It says in the bible that Jesus told the theif....

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Can I ask please why he said that when Jesus didn't actually ascend to heaven until 3 days later? He went to the grave that day.

Does paradise mean heaven or grave in this scripture?

And does 'Today' mean today or 3 days later?

Jesus went to speak to the dead in the spirit world. This place for those who loved God was also referred to as Paradise. The theif on the cross was given the opportunity to be taught by the Master Himself.

 

[Imagican]

And how about this:

Perhaps if when we die we simply 'cease to exist' until judgement day, then the thief 'went to sleep' upon his death and when he wakes upon judgement, it will 'seem' as if it is the 'same day'.

Or for the 'trinitarians' out there, if God and Christ are one, why couldn't the thief have been in heaven with God on that very day?

 

[guibox]

Jesus went to speak to the dead in the spirit world. This place for those who loved God was also referred to as Paradise. The theif on the cross was given the opportunity to be taught by the Master Himself.

There is always a bad habit here on this forum of people skipping over one's passages explaining preconceived ideas to continue promoting one's preconceived ideas.

Unless, LD, you did read my post and decided to ignore it. :wink:

Vic's three references to the tree of life show that it is in the new world, not some netherworld underground at death.

Ultimately, the problem is that you are taking what basically amounts to Jewish mystic beliefs of the afterlife and making a theology around it. Did you notice that the thief on the cross said to Jesus, 'Remember me when thou comest to thy kingdom?'

Do you know when that occurs, LD? At the second coming of Christ. This jives with all of Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. That is when the thief receives his reward.