Bible Study The theif on the cross

[Georges]

Consider this from the Jewishencyclopedia.com article on "Paradise":

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... h=paradise

Here is an excerpt.....does this sound like a familiar parable?

.....There are a nether Gehinnom and an upper one, over against the nether and the upper Gan 'Eden. Curiously enough, hell and paradise join each other. R. Johanan claims that a partition of only a hand-breadth, or four inches wide, separates them. The Rabbis say the width is but two fingers (= inches; Midr. Ḳohelet; Yalḳ., 976). R. Akiba said: "Every man born has two places reserved for him: one in paradise, and one in Gehinnom. If he be righteous he gets his own place and that of his wicked neighbor in paradise; if he be wicked he gets his own place and that of his righteous neighbor in Gehinnom" (Hag. 16a; see "Sefer Ḥasidim," §§ 609, 610). The question "Who may be a candidate for either Gehinnom or paradise?" is solved by the majority rule. If the majority of the acts of the individual are meritorious, he enters paradise; if wicked, he goes to Gehinnom; and if they are equal, God mercifully removes one wicked act and places it in the scale of good deeds. R. Jose b. Ḥanina quotes, "Who is a God like unto Thee, that pardoneth iniquity" ( = "lifts a sin"; Mic. vii. 18; Yer. Peah. i. 1, end).


Just an interesting read....

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

To continue my post:

Another prophetic passage describing the restored land of Israel during the Millennial reign of Christ, is Ezek.36:33-35 which I quote from the NIV: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: "On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say 'This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden;" (Garden = paradise in Greek).

Next, let us look at each of the three passages listed above.

First: Luke 23:43 which was discussed on my previous post. I would add one thing. The translators left out the article "the" in front of "paradise".
It should read "Thou shalt be with me in the paradise", which is referring to a specific paradise, which IMO is the future land of Israel.

Second: In 2 Cor.12:2-6 the Apostle Paul describes a vision where he was caught away to the third heaven, to (the in Gk) paradise. IMO this is the third heaven related to the earth, in time. 2 Pet.3:5-7 speaks of heavens of old and an earth through water perished; and goes on to say the heavens and earth now are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgement. Finally, there will be a new heavens and earth as described in 2 Pet.3:13 and Rev.21.

Third: Rev.2:7 tells us that the "overcomers" will be granted the right to eat from the tree of life in the paradise of God. This has to be on the new earth since Rev. 22 tells of the tree of life being along side of the water of life in the New Jerusalem. Undoubtedly, it will also have extensive gardens and parks.

Bick

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Irishrain, you quote 2 Tim 2:15, "Study to show thyself an approved workman of God, rightly dividing the word of truth." Your views of soul, life and death seem to have an Eastern religion overtone. Or maybe influenced by pagan philosophers, such as Plato, who believed the soul of man was something separate and eternal.

To understand the Biblical meaning of soul, one must do a word study, looking up "nephesh" in the OT, and "psuche" in the NT.

The foundation is in Gen.2:7, KJV, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul."

Thus, man is said to be a living soul. Not an immortal soul or a living spirit.

A definition of soul which helped me, is this: SOUL IS THE CONSCIOUSNESS, THE FEELINGS, THE DESIRES, PRODUCED BY THE BREATH OF LIFE VITALIZING THE BODY.

The Scriptures relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, distress, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the soul.

Much confusion has resulted because the typical translation does not use "soul" every time "nephesh" or "psyche" occur.

To me, some of the more important areas of understanding how God wants us to understand "soul" are these:

Many times, man is called a "soul" in the scriptures. Here are a few:
Gen.12:5 "Abram took his wife....and all the souls they had gotten in
Haran.
Gen.14:21 "Give me the souls and take the goods to yourself."
Exod.12:16 "No manner of work to be done, save that which every soul
must eat."
Acts 2:41 "...and the same day there were added unto them about three
thousand souls."
Acts 2:43 "And fear came upon every soul..."
Acts 27:37 "And we were in all in the ship, two hundred threescore and
sixteen souls."

The soul is said to be in the blood. And this is true of all other animals that have blood.
Gen.9:3,4 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you....but flesh
with the soul thereof, the blood, shall you not eat." See Gen.9:5,6.
Lev.17:11 "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to
you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls. For it is the blood
that makes atonement by reason of the soul."
There are a number of other verses, and it should be noted that in most
versions, "life" was wrongly used instead of "soul". This can be checked
by using a complete concordance.

This truth is important in understanding many verses, such as: Rev.6:9
"...I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of
God, and for the testimony for which they held." and
Rev.20:4 "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,..."
What do you see on an altar but blood. And the blood of those beheaded
poured out. John, the writer, as a Jew, was well acquainted with the OT,
and to relate the blood he saw to souls was no problem.

Must end now. Will pick it up later. God bless you, Bick.

 

[Georges]

consider the Jewish definitions.....Don't go with the Neoplatonic Christianity in determining the definitions, always go with the Jewish understanding concerning the things of God....

The Soul:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... earch=Soul

Immortality of the Soul:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... earch=Soul

The Holy Spirit:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... y%20Spirit

 

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

Here is another description of the immortal soul

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm

noble6

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Gentlemen: Any definitions from encyclopedias, dictionaries, world or pagan philosophies are wrong if they do not line up with the revealed word of God, the complete Scriptures.

I adjure you! Search the Scriptures! How can a soul be immortal when many verses say it dies because the man dies? There are many.
Here are some. I'll write them out so you won't have to look them up.

Lev.19:28 "You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for a dead soul"

Lev.24:17 "When any man by smiting takes the soul of any human
being he shall surely be put to death."

Num.23:10 "Let my soul die the death of the righteous."

Josh.2:13 "Save alive....and deliver our souls from death."

Judges 16:30 "And Samson said, 'let my soul die with the Philistines."

Job 36:14 "Their soul dies in youth."

Psa.22:20 "Deliver my soul from the sword."

Psa.33:18 "The eye of Jehovah is upon them that fear Him...to deliver
their soul from death and to keep alive in famine."

All for now, Bick

 

[Georges]

Re: The thief on the cross

Gentlemen: Any definitions from encyclopedias, dictionaries, world or pagan philosophies are wrong if they do not line up with the revealed word of God, the complete Scriptures.

I adjure you! Search the Scriptures! How can a soul be immortal when many verses say it dies because the man dies? There are many.
Here are some. I'll write them out so you won't have to look them up.

Lev.19:28 "You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for a dead soul"

Lev.24:17 "When any man by smiting takes the soul of any human
being he shall surely be put to death."

Num.23:10 "Let my soul die the death of the righteous."

Josh.2:13 "Save alive....and deliver our souls from death."

Judges 16:30 "And Samson said, 'let my soul die with the Philistines."

Job 36:14 "Their soul dies in youth."

Psa.22:20 "Deliver my soul from the sword."

Psa.33:18 "The eye of Jehovah is upon them that fear Him...to deliver
their soul from death and to keep alive in famine."

All for now, Bick

Personally, I believe the created soul is immortal (unless God destroy's it).

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

However, the soul that God saves is immortal.

The body is the scabbard for the soul...Body, Soul, and Spirit are intricately tied together to give a human life, and individuality. The physical body is created, a soul is given to it. The body is concieved and bought to life animated by the spirit.

Bick...in Judaism, body and soul are tied together and interchangeble depending on the theme of the verse....In the instances you quote, it is the separation of the physical body from that inner thought producing (mind, will power, intellegence etc) that makes a man an individual on the inside. The physical body, the outward extension of the soul, dies as stated in your verses.....the inner man, the intelligence returns to God.

Not to mention, the verses you quote are translated from Hebrew. Don't you think they may have a little clue as to what God meant. After all the original words are in their language.

 

[guibox]

Re: The thief on the cross

Personally, I believe the created soul is immortal (unless God destroy's it)...However, the soul that God saves is immortal.

Lucky for you and all of us, we don't have to rely on what we 'personally' believe. We have the scriptures and the scriptures tell us that man IS a soul, and that the 'soul' is one of the most misunderstood concepts in the Bible. Man was to live eternally (not because of a soul but because of who he was, an immortal being) but lost it when he sinned.

The body is the scabbard for the soul...Body, Soul, and Spirit are intricately tied together to give a human life, and individuality. The physical body is created, a soul is given to it. The body is concieved and bought to life animated by the spirit.

And no where in the scriptures does it say that the 'soul' survives death. Instead we see that man is a wholistic, composite being with each part dependant on the other. When man dies, his 'soul' (thinking, feeling, cogitating, emotional part) dies with him. The spirit (pneuma, ruach) goes back to God. This is not the soul, neither is it an immortal thinking part of man.

You are preaching Greek dualism, not Hebrew/Christian theology.

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Guibox, I agree with you mostly.

Goerges, as Guibox put it, your personal views on this subject may be yours, but they are not Biblical.

The Jewish views of the soul, heaven and hell, etc., have, IMO, been developed from Rabbinic writings centuries ago, after the Jewish captivity in Babylon. There, it would seem, they were influenced by the Babylonian philosophies that man, after death, is really alive in some other form, called soul or spirit.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the poor beggar, was addressed to the Pharisees who loved riches. This strange metaphor Jesus told was based on the traditions the Jews had developed and which were not based upon Moses or the prophets.

Bishop J. D. Lightfoot, a great Christian leader, author, and historian, comments on this story, quoting from Jewish stories which tell of the dead talking to each other, and to alive persons; these "souls" are able to move around the earth and tell others what they hear, and many other ideas that just aren't Scriptual.

To read this go to link: http://www.studylight.org/com/jlc/view/cgi. and click on Luke, then to Chapt.16; then to verse 19.

God bless, Bick

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Merry, I can understand why you could be confused as you read through all thse posts.

But, if we start with the Lord God forming man from the soil of the earth, breathing into his nostrils the breath of life, so he became a living soul, we know that a soul was not something separate that entered Adams body.
Adam became a living being with senses, feelings, consciousness, desires, etc.

The thief died with the hope of being remembered by Jesus when Jesus the Christ comes into His kingdom.

Which is what Jesus promised him. To be with Him in the paradise, the way the restored Israel will be during the Millennium.

As has been said: "Verily I tell you today" is a Hebrew expression used for emphasis, and can be found a number of places in the OT.

God bless, Bick

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Georges: Let's discuss some of your points of the Dec 19 post"

You say you believe the soul is immortal (unless God destroys it).

By agreement, the answers must be in the Scriptures; that is, as accurate and literal a translation as possible. Agreed?

If the soul is "immortal", then it must have eyes, ears, nose, a brain, a tongue, and all faculties just as a live human being. Right? This, of course is the traditional view of Christendom. That's why they say upon death, the soul of the righteous goes to enjoy a place of bliss before the throne of God; and the wicked go to a place of firey torment. Is this your understanding?

Then, is that saying part of us is immortal? Is that what it means to have "everlasting life"? So, if the souls of the unsaved suffer unending punishment, they also have "everlasting life"? That doesn't make sense, does it? But if all souls are immortal, they would have everlasting life.

But Paul, our apostle, tells us in 1 Cor.15:51 ff that when Christ secretly comes to the air to catch away the church which is his body, the dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive are changed. Then together we meet the Lord in the air (not on the earth when He comes openly in power and great glory to establish His kingdom on the earth). At this time the corruptible are raised incorruptible; and the mortals (we who are alive) put on immortality. The church/body is then taken into the heavenlies to enjoy all the spiritual blessings prepared by God, the Father. See Eph. 1.

Thus, it is the whole person who gains immortality.

Who is immortal today? Only one person is said to have immortality, the Lord Jesus Christ: 1Tim.6:16 "...the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, ..." AV.

Let's look at Matt.10:28 "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing him, rather, who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna." CV. ("hell" in AV).

If you use a concordance you will know that "hell" has been used for three different words in the Greek: Gehenna (Heb.) or geenna (Gk.); hades; and Tartarus.

Since we are living souls, we have the ability through our senses to experience and enjoy many things, including fear, bitterness, happiness, love, etc. IMO, Christ in this chapter is instructing the twelve disciples before they go before him into the towns and villages, preaching the good news of the kingdom of the heavens. He is warning them that persecution
and perhaps death may follow.

Remember that the hope of Israel is the future deliverance and kingdom by the Messiah. This is the hope of the disciples too, to see and gain the kingdom of heaven.

So, they are to fear the one (God or Christ) who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Why? Because, as righteous believers in Jesus, the Messiah, they would be resurrected: body, soul and spirit, to enjoy and glory in the kingdom. The unbelievers would be judged and thrown into Gehenna to be destroyed, Gehenna again being a refuse dump, ever burning, outside the restored city of Jerusalem.

Technically, when someone is killed, his body and soul are killed. His body returns to the soil; and his consciousness, his feelings, his being disappears, or is said to go the the unseen (hades).

All for now. Bick

 

[CP_Mike]

"Nephesh" is essentilally the life of a being

Hi Georges,
The Hebrew understanding for soul essentially means 'The vital life' of a human or animal. The Hebrew understanding of personhood was a totality which was indivisible and "soul" in Hebrew terminology was life bound up in the blood (DT12:23). Like Bick posted, "Nephesh" is never promised immortality anywhere in scripture, because "Nephesh" is not the "soul" that the idea the Greek philosophers that polluted Christian and Hebrew thought with.

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

It seems to me we have gotten away from the original subject. But, as I've found, so many of these discussions center on man's constitution: Body, Soul and Spirit.

Georges, to continue discussing your latest post:

Of course the OT originals were in Hebrew and the views of Jewish historians and commentators are important. But, just as in Jesus day, we also should verify their teachings align with Moses and the prophets. In the OT I find nothing that agrees with the pagan Platonic philosophy of immortality of the soul.

As others on this link have pointed out, the cure for death is resurrection. And the hope of resurrection is found in the OT as well as the NT.

While it isn't recorded in Genesis, Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac because he believed that God could raise the dead (see Heb.11:17-19).
Abraham also knew he would be resurrected and dwell in a city with foundations, whose designer and builder was God (Heb.11:10).

In Job 19:25-27, Job says "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh I shall see God:" AV

David in the Psalms many times speaks of the redemption of Israel.

Chapt.26 in Isaiah, a Messianic prophecy, speaking of a future Israel in the land in verse 19 says, "But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy." NIV

Daniel in Dan.12 ff, prophecying of the end times when there will be great tribulation, writes that those whose names are witten in the book of life will be delivered (from death). "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

All for now, Bick

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Georges, to continue regarding resurrection spoken of in the OT:

In Ezek. 37 is the story of Ezekiel and the valley of Israel's dry bones.
In the prophecy, sinews came upon the bones, and breath interred them and they lived. Nothing was said about a soul reenterring them to give life.
Verse 12 says it clearly: "Therefore prophcy and say unto them, thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.' "

IMO, these are Israelites deserving to be apart of the future Messianic Kingdom on earth, known as the Millennium. This will happen at Christ's second coming as a King to the earth.

Looking again at Daniel 12, I believe Jesus was referring to the same event in John 5:28,29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."

I'm sure there are other references, but suffice for now.

In the NT there are many references. Let's consider some:

In Matt. 22:23-31; Mark 12:18-23; and Luke 20:27-36 Jesus speaks of the resurrection of people, not souls.

All for now, Bick

 

[guibox]

Bick, you have done a masterful job of laying this out systematically and pointing out that resurrection, not immortality is the key to life.

And you really haven't even hit the meat of it yet in the NT.

Unfortunately, it will avail nothing as everyone here is so desperate to hang on to their cherished beliefs no matter how little support there is in the scriptures on it. There are a few open minded folks that can see truth for what it says, but most are merely traditional Christian apologists and not sola scriptura studiers.

If they would take off their preconceived views of an immortal soul and read the Bible texts for what they say, they would find that life after death DOES NOT happen without the resurrection.

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Guibox, I agree wholeheartedly.

As far as I've found, the belief in an immortal soul came into church writings and teachings in the third century A.D., primarily through St. Agustine who was primary in establishing the theology of the Western, or Roman division of the church. However, other church fathers also embraced this view, as well as the Eastern division.

But why? IMO it was because they were ignorant of what Moses and the Prophets had to say about man being a living soul;and because they believed that if the righteous gained eternal glory and happiness, then the wicked must have earned eternal punishment and sorrow. And since man dies, he must have an immortal soul having all its senses to enjoy bliss, or feel the torments of hell.

And, unfortunately, even the reformation did not alter this doctrine.

God bless, Bick

 

[guibox]

Re: The thief on the cross

And, unfortunately, even the reformation did not alter this doctrine.

God bless, Bick

Not completely. William Tyndale was an avid criticizer of the 'immortality of the soul' and a grand supporter of the resurrection of the dead to life. If you look up his quotes against Thomas More, you will see the most logical explanation of why this view is false. And yet so many still choose to believe it.

Martin Luther (until near the end of his life where he changed his mind) completely supported resurrection not immorality of the soul as well.

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Thanks for that info about Tyndale and Luther, Guibox. I'll have to do some more research.

Bick

 

[Georges]

Bick..Guibox.....


Sorry about not responding in a timely manner....haven't been on for a week or so...family in town....in looking back over the responding posts...I would like to reply to you both but there is an awful lot of responses to catch up on....too many for the time it would take I'm afraid, and I have other posts of interest as well....

I can't really respond to your posts...as I've posted the links for Body, Soul, and Spirit as viewed in Judaism...Not sure if you've read them or blew them off. You can say that it's Judaism mixed with Greek Philosophy or Babylonian influence....You can agree with them at any level or not. I won't contend with you on that...

 

[Bick]

The thief on the cross

Merry M. Have seen no posts from you lately. The subject has wandered off, somewhat. But the Biblical truth of body, soul and spirit are part of the answer.

Do you understand the answer Jesus gave?

God bless, Bick