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AHIMSA
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Was Adam eating of the tree an evil act? Is disobedience of God, in any degree, considered evil?
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AHIMSA
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Yes, but would that rebellion be considered evil? Is choosing something wrong from right evil?
S
Solo
Guest
Who is defining evil, a righteous God or a sinful man?AHIMSA said:
M
MrVersatile48
Guest
The Bible says, "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft"
Emphasising that means rebellion against God: see what happened to Satan in Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28
See also Genesis 3
That deceiver sought to sow doubt in Eve's mind, "Has God really said...?"
As the father of lies, the great deceiver, he also lied, "Surely you will become as gods"
The same 'spirit of antichrist' & 'spirit of lawlessness' dominates this climax generation of all history, just as 2 Thessalonians 2 prophesied it would
As RC Sproul said today on http://www.ucb.TV - & will expand Fri am there - many falsely say that the Bible is mere outdated human thought, claiming superior authority for their own human wisdom
See Romans 1:18-32 & 1 Corinthians 1:18-27 to expose such foolish deceit
The worst tyranny ever - Revelation 13 - is very much in the process of formation with the burgeoning covert surveillance techno & increasingly more powerful WMD etc
Satan is the enemy of souls & it is very foolish indeed to believe the destroyer & decry the Creator
Whatever the Almighty Creator calls wrong/evil is bad for us & what He calls good/blessed is good for us
He is not a killjoy but the Joy Giver
I came in here asking God to show me where this CT news feature about the Eternal Word via changing media best fits
It needs its own thread
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 966#297966
but fits here too:-
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... 40.38.html
Do train to use your PC & help to complete our Great Commission, to hasten our Lord's return & cut short the awful persecution of so many of our brothers & sisters in Christ worldwide
Online training in 'Net outreach @ http://www.gospelcom.net & http://www.e-vangelism.com
Apt also to invite Brits to the UK-wide day of prayer - Trumpet Call V - at Birmingham NEC, Saturday, 11am to 6pm
Hope that all helps
God bless!
Ian
Emphasising that means rebellion against God: see what happened to Satan in Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28
See also Genesis 3
That deceiver sought to sow doubt in Eve's mind, "Has God really said...?"
As the father of lies, the great deceiver, he also lied, "Surely you will become as gods"
The same 'spirit of antichrist' & 'spirit of lawlessness' dominates this climax generation of all history, just as 2 Thessalonians 2 prophesied it would
As RC Sproul said today on http://www.ucb.TV - & will expand Fri am there - many falsely say that the Bible is mere outdated human thought, claiming superior authority for their own human wisdom
See Romans 1:18-32 & 1 Corinthians 1:18-27 to expose such foolish deceit
The worst tyranny ever - Revelation 13 - is very much in the process of formation with the burgeoning covert surveillance techno & increasingly more powerful WMD etc
Satan is the enemy of souls & it is very foolish indeed to believe the destroyer & decry the Creator
Whatever the Almighty Creator calls wrong/evil is bad for us & what He calls good/blessed is good for us
He is not a killjoy but the Joy Giver
I came in here asking God to show me where this CT news feature about the Eternal Word via changing media best fits
It needs its own thread
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 966#297966
but fits here too:-
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... 40.38.html
Do train to use your PC & help to complete our Great Commission, to hasten our Lord's return & cut short the awful persecution of so many of our brothers & sisters in Christ worldwide
Online training in 'Net outreach @ http://www.gospelcom.net & http://www.e-vangelism.com
Apt also to invite Brits to the UK-wide day of prayer - Trumpet Call V - at Birmingham NEC, Saturday, 11am to 6pm
Hope that all helps
God bless!
Ian
J
John the Baptist
Guest
AHIMSA said:
*****
Surely.
It was the sin against the Eternal Covenant of the universe! Hebrews 13:20 (*see 1 John 3:4)
The same ETERNAL Covenant that found satan and his followers in heaven finally sinning the sin unto death. Matthew 12:31-32 James 1:15's full cup, FINISHED & MATURED, closed door as in Matthew 25:10-12.
Compare the repeat of Revelation 17:5 ones.
: ---John
lovely
Member
Hi AHIMSA,
I would say that it was evil, yes.
Adam and Eve sinned, and because of it, sin entered the world. Consider how they were tempted...
Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
1. It was good for food.
2. It was pleasing to the eye.
3. Desired to make one wise.
Consider how Jesus was tempted...
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
1. Stones to bread. (Jesus was hungry He had been fasting) lust of the flesh
2. Cast thyself down. (Seeing all the nations) lust of the eyes
3. All these things I will give thee, if you worship me. (Power, as a God) The pride of life
Think about Christ's answers...
Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
God caused Israel to hunger, and HE met their need with Manna...Christ is the bread of life, and the WORD.
Deuteronomy 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. (Exodus 17:2-7) The people were thirsty, and God provided them with water...The Holy Spirit is the water that flows from the Rock, Christ.
Deuteronomy 6:13-14 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; This is the experience of being in the wilderness, and trusting God is true...where Christ was tempted...they were both tested, Christ withstood and trusted the Father, and did not tempt Him to see if He could trust...but trusted.
Here are the ways we are tempted, and we can respond in the same manner Christ responded.
1 John 2:15-17 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Beware of seducers
Now, consider Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
All is...
1. The lust of the flesh.
2. The lust of the eyes.
3. The pride of life.
It is an act of love for the world, and against the will of God. His children will not desire such things...Through Adam sin entered, and through Christ sin was redeemed.
The Lord bless you.
I would say that it was evil, yes.
Adam and Eve sinned, and because of it, sin entered the world. Consider how they were tempted...
Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
1. It was good for food.
2. It was pleasing to the eye.
3. Desired to make one wise.
Consider how Jesus was tempted...
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
1. Stones to bread. (Jesus was hungry He had been fasting) lust of the flesh
2. Cast thyself down. (Seeing all the nations) lust of the eyes
3. All these things I will give thee, if you worship me. (Power, as a God) The pride of life
Think about Christ's answers...
Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
God caused Israel to hunger, and HE met their need with Manna...Christ is the bread of life, and the WORD.
Deuteronomy 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. (Exodus 17:2-7) The people were thirsty, and God provided them with water...The Holy Spirit is the water that flows from the Rock, Christ.
Deuteronomy 6:13-14 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; This is the experience of being in the wilderness, and trusting God is true...where Christ was tempted...they were both tested, Christ withstood and trusted the Father, and did not tempt Him to see if He could trust...but trusted.
Here are the ways we are tempted, and we can respond in the same manner Christ responded.
1 John 2:15-17 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Beware of seducers
Now, consider Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
All is...
1. The lust of the flesh.
2. The lust of the eyes.
3. The pride of life.
It is an act of love for the world, and against the will of God. His children will not desire such things...Through Adam sin entered, and through Christ sin was redeemed.
The Lord bless you.
A
AHIMSA
Guest
Now that we have established that Adam's decision was an evil decision...I don't understand how God can actually condemn him for his error.
When God tells Adam to not eat of the tree....Adam did not yet have the knowledge of good and evil, he did not know right from wrong. Hence he could not have known was he was doing was wrong. He couldn't possibly have comprehended what God was saying or the implications and consequences of eating of the tree.
His decision to eat of the fruit was not a consciously evil act, he was in a state of moral neutrality, obeying God, due to his ignorance, was not good nor was eating the fruit bad. He was like an animal, an amoral creature that acts according to instinct.
How can a just God condemn him when Adam wasn't aware of the difference between right and wrong? Like an infant child?
When God tells Adam to not eat of the tree....Adam did not yet have the knowledge of good and evil, he did not know right from wrong. Hence he could not have known was he was doing was wrong. He couldn't possibly have comprehended what God was saying or the implications and consequences of eating of the tree.
His decision to eat of the fruit was not a consciously evil act, he was in a state of moral neutrality, obeying God, due to his ignorance, was not good nor was eating the fruit bad. He was like an animal, an amoral creature that acts according to instinct.
How can a just God condemn him when Adam wasn't aware of the difference between right and wrong? Like an infant child?
lovely
Member
Very Good question, here is the answer...
Adam was instructed by God Himself, AHIMSA.
Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam had a free will, and Scripture tells us that he sinned willingly. He knew, and did it anyway. You are the one who is attributing all of this other stuff to Adam, and ignoring the account of the Word. Consider the thoughts that Eve had again...it was good for food, pleasing to the eye, and desired to make one wise. What did the deceiver promise???? "You will not surely die, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good, and evil." They believed the deceiver above God, and desired their will before God's to satisify their own lusts. Sorry, but the excuse you offer will not be considered a valid reason before Christ on that last day, it will just be more of the same stuff that Adam, and Eve, were guilty of. I pray that the Lord bless you.
Adam was instructed by God Himself, AHIMSA.
Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam had a free will, and Scripture tells us that he sinned willingly. He knew, and did it anyway. You are the one who is attributing all of this other stuff to Adam, and ignoring the account of the Word. Consider the thoughts that Eve had again...it was good for food, pleasing to the eye, and desired to make one wise. What did the deceiver promise???? "You will not surely die, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good, and evil." They believed the deceiver above God, and desired their will before God's to satisify their own lusts. Sorry, but the excuse you offer will not be considered a valid reason before Christ on that last day, it will just be more of the same stuff that Adam, and Eve, were guilty of. I pray that the Lord bless you.
A
AHIMSA
Guest
...but he did not have the knowlegde that disobedience was wrong...
Drew
Member
This is a good point, and with all due respect, I do not think anyone has really addressed the essence of your question to this point. I think that you are saying that without a knowledge of "good and evil" Adam would have no "moral framework" to enable him to understand that disobeying God's command was in fact "wrong". Interesting question - hope to have something to say later......AHIMSA said:
A
AHIMSA
Guest
Yes, I think that is the essence of what I see is a dilemna.
It has always perplexed me that a religion that places such emphasis on the difference between good and evil and the importance of choosing the good...considers the knowledge of the difference between them to have been the original "evil" act.
It has always perplexed me that a religion that places such emphasis on the difference between good and evil and the importance of choosing the good...considers the knowledge of the difference between them to have been the original "evil" act.
lovely
Member
AHIMSA,
Your question has been answered in Scripture.
If you read the foundational post I gave you, then you will see in Scripture that Adam and Eve did NOT BELIEVE God, and in their "temptation" failed because they disregarded His Word, NOT because they needed the Knowledge of good and evil to resist it. They only needed the WORD. What did Christ say with His first Temptation? Man lives by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Christ answered with the Word, and recognized...as Adam and Eve should have...that God was meeting every need, and could be trusted above all...even an angel of light...as long as they would adhere to His Word, and place their trust in it.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
They learned of good, and bad, in experience...and knew it in a corrupt state that caused spiritual separation from God, after their failure in resisting temptation by the Word. They both chose to eat of the fruit for the three reasons that Scripture outlines (I gave you those already)...but bottom line they believed the deceiver (Angel of light?) OVER God by not taking God at His Word, and using the Word to resist the tempter....THAT was all they needed.
Anyway, I disagree with you, and Drew, that your question has not been answered. God's Word is the answer, and that is my point entirely. Again, I pray the Lord blesses you.
Your question has been answered in Scripture.
If you read the foundational post I gave you, then you will see in Scripture that Adam and Eve did NOT BELIEVE God, and in their "temptation" failed because they disregarded His Word, NOT because they needed the Knowledge of good and evil to resist it. They only needed the WORD. What did Christ say with His first Temptation? Man lives by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Christ answered with the Word, and recognized...as Adam and Eve should have...that God was meeting every need, and could be trusted above all...even an angel of light...as long as they would adhere to His Word, and place their trust in it.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
They learned of good, and bad, in experience...and knew it in a corrupt state that caused spiritual separation from God, after their failure in resisting temptation by the Word. They both chose to eat of the fruit for the three reasons that Scripture outlines (I gave you those already)...but bottom line they believed the deceiver (Angel of light?) OVER God by not taking God at His Word, and using the Word to resist the tempter....THAT was all they needed.
Anyway, I disagree with you, and Drew, that your question has not been answered. God's Word is the answer, and that is my point entirely. Again, I pray the Lord blesses you.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Drew said:
*****
John here:
Good point? Where would it stop? I do not do drugs, so how do I know it is wrong? I do not kill, so how do I know that it is wrong if I have not done so?? And on & on it goes! Are we hearing that we need to do these things to understand 'sin'?? And I have never jumped out of a ten story building either! :wink:
But what we will hear next it seems, is how was Christ tempted, if He never sinned and tasted it? Do you not see where the devil leads?
Yet, God did say not to do such sin. And even when Adam sinned this one time openly, God made [known] the Eternal Gospel Plan of Revelation 14:6! Does one remember the Ark, & the MERCY SEAT over the Ark, & Gods eternal Covenant which [is] still there inside?? Revelation 11:18-19 (compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
So: As with Adam's one sin, came death to the body. And with the MATURE man (either way) comes eternal life or eternal death depending upon which road he matures on! Matthew 12:31-32 (Compare K.J. Psalms 19:13)
Yet, one main reason Christ came in the first place, was to prove for all of eternity that Their creation were not flawed! (see Nahum 1:9) He was the second Adam, and he did as Adam could have done, live eternally without sin!
Drew
Member
Hi Lovely:
There is still a problem here that has not been addressed. There is a certain Catch-22 flavour to the story. In short, if the act of eating the fruit gave man a faculty to distinguish good from evil, how could it be argued that the act was sinful in the very specific sense of it being a morally "bad" or evil act?
If man had no knowledge of the distinction between good and evil before eating the fruit, then it seems clear that the act of eating the fruit cannot be "sinful" in the sense with which we normally use that term. Cheating on your wife is sinful precisely because we "know good from evil and have chosen evil".
I get the sense that you are arguing that man should have known that it was "wise" to obey God - you can indeed go down that road. But you need to be careful to not call the act "sin" (and maybe you have not) unless you very carefully explain how sin can take place in the absence of the knowledge of the difference between good and evil - I certainly would have trouble giving such an explanation.
If the act of Adam and Eve was not a moral transgression (how could it be such, if they did not know good from evil?, what kind of act was it? - an error of competence would seem to be the only alternative. And it is indeed problematic to give an account about how an error of competence is deserving of punishment - if punishment is indeed what they got.
This is a very interesting problem and I still think it has not really been dealt with successfully.
There is still a problem here that has not been addressed. There is a certain Catch-22 flavour to the story. In short, if the act of eating the fruit gave man a faculty to distinguish good from evil, how could it be argued that the act was sinful in the very specific sense of it being a morally "bad" or evil act?
If man had no knowledge of the distinction between good and evil before eating the fruit, then it seems clear that the act of eating the fruit cannot be "sinful" in the sense with which we normally use that term. Cheating on your wife is sinful precisely because we "know good from evil and have chosen evil".
I get the sense that you are arguing that man should have known that it was "wise" to obey God - you can indeed go down that road. But you need to be careful to not call the act "sin" (and maybe you have not) unless you very carefully explain how sin can take place in the absence of the knowledge of the difference between good and evil - I certainly would have trouble giving such an explanation.
If the act of Adam and Eve was not a moral transgression (how could it be such, if they did not know good from evil?, what kind of act was it? - an error of competence would seem to be the only alternative. And it is indeed problematic to give an account about how an error of competence is deserving of punishment - if punishment is indeed what they got.
This is a very interesting problem and I still think it has not really been dealt with successfully.
S
Solo
Guest
It all has to do with belief. Did Adam believe God when God said that in the day that he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die. Adam's unbelief condemned him and all of mankind, just as unbelief condemns mankind today.
lovely
Member
Hi Drew,
I think Adam knew that he should believe God, afterall God was His Creator...and who knew that better than Adam? No, the tree was there for the purpose of temptation, and Adam fell by unbelief...the same as those who will not receive Him even today.
The knowledge of good and evil was the corrupt knowledge of experience, and once their eyes were opened to this, there was no turning back for any of us. Adam should have believed God, and God gave him a full run down on the consequences of his actions prior.
Belief in the Word is all that was needed to resist temptation. Adam failed in all three key areas because he did not believe God. Through that fall, sin entered in, and Adam experienced shame over his nakedness immediately. I think you are under the impression that Adam did not "know" that believing God's instruction about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would be right. Was there some reason he could not trust God?
Secondly, and not least by any means, God's word says that Adam sinned, and through him sin entered the world...and I believe the Word.
I think Adam knew that he should believe God, afterall God was His Creator...and who knew that better than Adam? No, the tree was there for the purpose of temptation, and Adam fell by unbelief...the same as those who will not receive Him even today.
The knowledge of good and evil was the corrupt knowledge of experience, and once their eyes were opened to this, there was no turning back for any of us. Adam should have believed God, and God gave him a full run down on the consequences of his actions prior.
Belief in the Word is all that was needed to resist temptation. Adam failed in all three key areas because he did not believe God. Through that fall, sin entered in, and Adam experienced shame over his nakedness immediately. I think you are under the impression that Adam did not "know" that believing God's instruction about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would be right. Was there some reason he could not trust God?
Secondly, and not least by any means, God's word says that Adam sinned, and through him sin entered the world...and I believe the Word.
I think the question was more about accountability. How can Adam be accountable to something he is not capable of discerning. Sure all of us can sit here today and say that "rebellion is sin ..disobedience is evil ..evil is sin", hence Adam sinned. Sure Adam sinned. But why is he accountable?
Kids go to heaven because of the "accountability" doctrine. They sinned but you say God doesnt hold them accountable. Now Adam NOT having any knowledge of "good and evil" was as innocent as a kid, even when he disobeyed. Not until after he ate the fruit did he understand good and evil and his sin. So why was he held accountable?
Kids go to heaven because of the "accountability" doctrine. They sinned but you say God doesnt hold them accountable. Now Adam NOT having any knowledge of "good and evil" was as innocent as a kid, even when he disobeyed. Not until after he ate the fruit did he understand good and evil and his sin. So why was he held accountable?
You act like you have NO knowledge of what happens when you do drugs or kill or jump off of a building. You not doing the above mentioned is BECAUSE you have knowledge of it even though you havent tried it. But Adam was IGNORANT of good and evil until he ate the fruit. So your argument is moot and your comparison doesnt do any justice against Adam's sin. If you had absolutely no knowledge of what happens when you jump off of a building, none whatsoever, would you not have ever tried it?