The Trichotomous and Dichotomous View

[rhomphaeam]

eddif As promised the thread.



Background

It is essential to understand or else realise that the language of the New Testament is not English. It is Common Greek of the Hellenistic influence. When the Greeks began to assimilate the meaning and implications of the spirit, as distinct from the personality, and the personality as distinct from the physical body, these terms - Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, & Σάρξ (Spirit, Soul & Body) began to fall into intellectual usage in the ancient world. There had already been a separate directly satanic influence on ancient Egypt through magical texts and meanings associated with the worship of false gods and the manipulation of the very elements. From the management of the river Nile, food production, accumulated wealth, improved health, increased happiness and a multitude of other daily realities and ambitions - the Egyptians were practising formal magical arts as a mechanism for directing their lives. Assyria similarly practised what amounted to the same magical art as could be found in Egypt. In these cultures, it is possible to find a corresponding use of terms as those of the Hebrews and eventually the Greeks, yet with no direct revelation of God to make substance and validity of their meanings. For this reason, there has always been an occult equivalence of these terms which have over time become so closely paralleled with the true meaning of these words, that claiming a trichotomous understanding of man, is beginning to be expressed itself as an occult insight.

The terms that are being expressed are trichotomous and dichotomous.

The divisions are:

Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, & Σάρξ (Spirit, Soul & Body) trichotomous.

Ψυχή, & Σάρξ (Soul & Body) dichotomous.

The object is Man of Genesis 2:7

Introduction

The implications of the whole of the western world rests in these three divisions and the way in which the Greeks developed their use of Hebrew meanings which were incorporated philosophically and magically into Assyrian religious practises. When Israel and then Judah went into captivity, there was a correspondence in time and space between the Hebrew God of Israel and His revelation of Himself through the Law and the Prophets, and the occult world of satanic inspiration and what spiritual life meant to the whole of the pagan world. It is not without good reason that Daniel is given a name by the Babylonian king which translated means, chief sorcerer. No one doubted the reality of spirit; no one doubted the meaning of magic, both fear and effect (the soul) and no one doubted the meaning of the body and the realities of physical life. So that we can say with certainty that both the meaning of these words and their usage was to be found in several ancient languages by occultist, magicians, philosophers as well as historians. The only true meaning, however, could be found in Israel in the first instance and then the Church in the second. It has been apostasy which has hidden their meanings, both in Israel and the Church.

It is a very easy thing to imagine that because a distinction and a true meaning is lost within the folds of history that either their true meaning is lost or the need to rediscover the words themselves and their relevance is a vanity. Nor does it mean that any distinction in words has to be made into a metric system of doctrine. Countless saints have walked faithfully throughout church history. It is only necessary to truly desire to please God and to obey the most basic requirement, to love not the world to discover the meaning and distinction between spirit and soul and to walk in it. At the root of this command to love not the world is a necessary willingness to deny the very body itself - not an ascetic practise, but a recognition of its lusts and desires which detract in comfort, from that which is a joy, in its discipline.

Continuing.......

Rhomphaeam

 

[rhomphaeam]

The ancient Greeks philosophised and speculated intelligently about the spirit as well as whether the soul was the same in meaning. They also exercised considerable efforts in seeking to understand human anatomy which contributed to the practise of medicine as well as giving rise to occult speculations about the soul. They also founded the first Western schools of medicine. The physics and atomists of ancient Greece were as much concerned with the meaning of material substance (the body) as they were about the personality that pervades and shows itself through that substance. Yet in all these things it is clear that the ancient Greeks were minded to understand the soul and its relationship with heaven.

From the end of the third century AD to approximately the 10th Century the terms Spirit, Soul and Body as distinct realities of experience and essence were lost and buried in the Roman Catholic Church. The meaning became subjugated to Latin texts which did not express these terms fully, as well as Apostate men who had no interest broadly in true spiritual life. In such a mind it is not necessary to draw a distinction between spiritual life (spirit) and natural intelligence (soul). Their concern was power and the establishing of a primacy of power. The Crusades and the sacking of Constantinople and the removal of Islamic libraries to the West began the process of assimilating Greek philosophical meanings and ideas of the ancient world into secular societies, through the founding of Universities ex-ecclesia on these Islamic treasures of learning acquired by conquest from Byzantine Christians. In short, the ancient Greek Hellenistic world of philosophy mathematics, and reason was rediscovered by the men of learning in the West and galvanised a process that led to the enlightenment.

The effect of this eventually led to the 12th-Century Renaissance and the re- examination of ancient Greek literature - from the philosophers to the occultist alike. This early re-examination essentially supported the continued embrace of a dichotomous view of mankind, but in that process what we now understand to be Occidental occultism emerged with its intuitive occult understanding of the trichotomy of man. As a former occultist, I was introduced to this trichotomous reality even before I had any true knowledge of God. Today the New Age occultist also embraces this same understanding. However, the meaning is distorted and takes on the form found in ancient magical texts written in Greek over two thousand years ago. So side by side with the dichotomous scientific material paradigm of a European dominant philosophical, political and economic model of power, which eventually emerges as the Enlightenment - and a continuation of the dichotomous view of mankind, we have the trichotomous and ancient occult understanding of Occidental magic or sorcery. This manifested itself intellectually in what eventually became known as alchemy, and even Sir Isaac Newton was caught up in its meaning and effect. Its proper occult meaning is found in ancient Egypt in the Hellenistic period written in common Greek where the Hebrew meanings of spirit, soul and body were corrupted by those who were seeking their, own metrical and spiritual benefit. In other words, these three terms - spirit, soul and body had already been corrupted in meaning from their original Hebrew meanings - which came by revelation of God, to their Greek equivalencies as prescribed by Satan’s activities in the world of occult thinkers before they were formally adopted into the Occidental world of magical arts.

The significant point here is to simply realise that before the philosophers and occultists of the Hellenistic period of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt - as well as the Greek philosophers, who had essentially developed a use of these three Greek words Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, & Σάρξ (Spirit, Soul & Body) the true meaning was already corrupted. It was a meaning which was lending itself to a dichotomous understanding for all practical purposes. However, with the advent of Christ, the early church had no difficulty in using these words to describe reality. The man is spirit, soul and body. The early Greek church fathers, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, and Basil of Caesarea, for more than two centuries, had no trouble with their meaning at all.

Continuing.......

 

[rhomphaeam]

Today that struggle over the implication of a dichotomous understanding of man, and a trichotomous understanding of man forces a concern by rationalists who take the name of Christ, as well as spiritually minded believers who also take the name of Christ. The rationalist is offended at the implication of a spiritual dynamic which exceeds their own ability to lay hold of it with the mind, and thus embraces modern philosophy and meanings, whilst using the same language as the spiritual believer. Yet such as those who embrace mere philosophy are divested of a truly spiritual mind. Where the distinction ends, is a choice to reject trichotomous understanding set in a real meaning, and embrace a dichotomous understanding which fails to make a proper distinction between the natural man and the new creature in Christ. To that end, we would say that the actual meaning of these words cannot be laid hold of metrically as one writing a poem, but spirituallyasonewalkingbyfaith.Itisnotamatterofwords -butaspiritual reality. However, for those who press rationalism instead of spiritual truth - the words become necessary and even essential - even if they are in no wise benefitted from the words themselves.

Those who do love the truth and are minded to be spiritual men with or without knowing it, joyfully embrace the spiritual man and reject a determination to be self-seeking. To embrace a proper spiritual mind of reason is to embrace the new life and lay hold of it at any cost.

Getting back to the centrality of these three seemingly unimportant words, I would argue that it is necessary and proper to set them in their correct framework of discovery by the Western world through Israel to Babylon, via Babylon to the ancient Greeks, from ancient Greece to Rome and the Hellenistic world of Ptolemy in Egypt, Judea and Byzantine. Thereafter via Islam as the masters of the Byzantine world to the medieval world of 12th-century ex-ecclesia Europe and the occult world of the Occident, and right up to the present day. In all of this usage, the only true and proper meaning of these words can be found in Israel at the beginning of the revelation of God to Israel, through the Law and the Prophets, and then in finality through the true church by the Apostles and the Prophets, in the writing of Scripture. Everything else is a misuse of truth or a corruption of its biblical meaning.

End of Introduction

Continuing......

 

[Who Me]

A new take on the AV only argument.

Like the AV only argument it is irrelevent to ordinary Christian life.

 

[rhomphaeam]

Continuing On

In seeking to understand why the trichotomous view is held with such concern by some believers, I would like to explain my thinking a little further. To do this, I must have a point of reference. My point of reference will be the following comment I made earlier.

“There has always been an occult equivalence of these terms which have over time become so closely paralleled with the true meaning of these words, that in claiming a trichotomous understanding of man, is beginning to be expressed itself as an occult insight.”

Meaning & Reason

I believe that to understand why the trichotomous view is held with suspicion by some believers and even spoken against; it is necessary to make a dichotomous distinction first. Understanding why the trichotomous position is thought to be wrong, cannot possibly be a matter of simply insisting that the Scriptures do not reveal something of what that distinction between spirit, soul and body means. At the same time, it is equally true that the scripture does often interchange all of these words in a variety of ways.

For example, the physical body itself is often referred to in terms of God’s creative authority. God made the man. This is true of his body, as it is true of his soul. Yet the Scripture clearly points to something of another way of thinking about the body and the soul beyond speaking about physical creation. There is clearly a view of the body which is expressed in terms that go beyond a simple physical description. This difference points to the problem of having the attitude of remaining a natural man after conversion.

When the scripture tells us that, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul” we are not reading about a corruption of something, rather we are reading about the order of things as well as the original condition of things. In Genesis 2:7 NASB we read that “The Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul.” This description of man as a living soul is a description of a sinless man. It is not the description of a fallen man. It is the description of the physical man and the soul as well. It is the revelation of God as to the origin of the human body in its sinless perfection, as well as the soul.

In speaking about the body and the soul, therefore, the Scripture speaks of the natural body, as well as the soul, which is also natural. In 1 Peter 2:11 this relationship between the natural body and the natural soul is clearly expressed. Yet it is expressed in negative terms. Peter is saying very clearly that the body itself has a consequence and effect on the soul. Even if we discount the whole question of a sin nature, what that sin nature is, or where the power of sin expresses itself, we cannot change Peter’s words. Setting aside all of these things we cannot remove from the simple and straightforward meaning of what Peter has said. “Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.” (1 Peter 2:11) Paul says a very similar thing as well. Again if we set aside any question of sin, sinfulness, or a sin nature, we see that Paul also draws a very real distinction between what is natural and what is spiritual. “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.” (1 Cor 3:1)

Even if we absolutely insisted that what Paul is saying here, with regard to the maturity of the Corinthian believers, means no more than saying, ‘you are immature’ there would be no getting away from the fact that he is speaking about that which is natural, to born again men and women. Of course, Peter is not making that assertion. Neither is Paul. However, we can pretend for a moment that they are, and take the meaning of what they have said to be free from all controversy regarding doctrines of sin, sinfulness and sinning.

“Thou prayest, and judgest him that prayeth not. Thou fasteth, and condemneth him that fasteth not. Whosoever doeth not that thou doest, thou thinkest thyself better than he: beware lest thy fast pertain to thy flesh. Thy brother hath need of thy help, thou in the mean space mumblest in thy prayers unto God, and wilt not be known of thy brother’s necessity. God shall abhor these prayers: for how shall God hear thee while thou prayest, when thou which art a man canst not find in thy heart to hear another man. Perceive also another thing. Thou lovest thy wife for this cause only, that she is thy wife. Thou doest no great thing, for this thing is common as well to infidels as to thee: or else thou lovest her for none other thing but because she is to thee pleasant and delectable. Thy love now draweth to thee fleshward.” Erasmus


Here is my paraphrase:

"You pray and judge him that does not pray. You fast and condemn him that does not fast. When someone doesn’t do what you do, you think yourself to be better than he. Be careful because your fast may prove to be no more than something for your own purposes. Your brother has need of your help. You always complain to God when you are praying, and don’t want to see your brothers need. God rejects such prayers. How can God hear you when you pray if you who are the same in nature as your brother do not see your brothers need? Understand this as well! The only reason you love your wife is because she is your wife. That is no great achievement; even unbelievers do the same thing. Perhaps you love your wife because she is beautiful and desirable to you. Such the love of a woman is natural and thus it is of the flesh."

Although Erasmus is writing his article to present the trichotomous view of Origen, in this short passage he ends up speaking about just two things. These are the body and the soul. The meaning of this passage draws us to a dichotomous view, and yet his deeper intention is to show that if our conduct and behaviour is merely natural, we are not spiritual at all. Herein lies a Scriptural reality. When dealing with conduct and behaviour, the scriptures always draw a simple dichotomous understanding. Yet the scriptures clearly show that a man is much more than that which he is by nature of the body and the soul. The apostle Paul says the same thing when he tells the Ephesians, “husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself.” And whilst it is clear that Paul did not intend a negative connotation by writing these words, he clearly is expressing what the direction of natural affection is. Again in Genesis, we read, “And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman Because she was taken out of Man.” This is the meaning of natural love between a man and a woman, and this is the meaning of Paul's words when he says, “He who loves his wife loves himself.”

Erasmus says, “Thou lovest thy wife for this cause only, that she is thy wife. Thou doest no great thing, for this thing is common as well to infidels as to thee: or else thou lovest her for none other thing but because she is to thee pleasant and delectable. Thy love now draweth to thee fleshward.”

It must be evident that to love one's own wife is both natural and reasonable. Moreover, it was in this natural condition that the woman was taken from the man. This being whilst Adam was in his state of innocence; without sin, and means that all such love of a man for his wife is both good and purposeful in the will of God. Yet both the Apostle Paul and Erasmus were seeking to illuminate another reality altogether. Paul calls it a mystery, and says, “This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church,” and Erasmus says, “But thou lovest her for this thing chiefly, because thou hast perceived in her the image of Christ, which is godly reverence, modesty, soberness, chastity: and now lovest not her in herself but in Christ: yea rather Christ in her. After this manner lovest spiritually.”

I personally recognise and believe in a trichotomous view of a man. I have no problem however in speaking about the dichotomous view because as we can see in simplicity, if we speak about the body and the soul, we would not be able to remove from the admonishment of Scripture to be more than mere men. This is Peter’s meaning, and this is Paul’s meaning as well. When we speak about conduct arising from the natural man, we can speak of a dichotomous understanding, but if we desire to speak of the spiritual man and not simply the natural man we must move on to a trichotomous understanding. In short we must speak of spirit, soul and body. To fail to understand the spirit of man is to fail to understand God’s hight purpose in creating him.

Continuing.........

 

[rhomphaeam]

Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, and Σάρξ

The Usage of Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, and Σάρξ in Greek Writings and Translated Works from the Earliest Period to 225 A.D.; and of their Equivalents %ֶחַ, נֶ֣פMר and ָרlָ< in the Hebrew Old Testament.

I. Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, AND Σάρξ IN GREEK WRITERS FROM HOMER TO ARISTOTLE
II. %ֶחַ, נֶ֣פMר AND ָרlָ< IN THE Old Testament
III. Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, AND Σάρξ IN GREEK WRITERS FROM EPICURUS TO
ARIUS DIDYMUS
IV. Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, AND Σάρξ IN GREEK WRITERS OF THE EARLY CHRISTIAN PERIOD
V. Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, AND Σάρξ IN JEWISH-GREEK LITERATURE
VI. Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, AND Σάρξ IN ETHNIC RELIGIOUS WRITINGS APPROXIMATELY CONTEMPORARY WITH THE New Testament
VII.Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, AND Σάρξ IN THE New Testament

Burton, E. D. W. (1918). Spirit, soul, and flesh. Chicago, IL: The University of Chicago Press. Professor and Head of the Department of New Testament and Early Christian Literature at the University of Chicago.

“These things afore written had been and that a great deal more than sufficient: nevertheless that thou mayst be somewhat more sensibly known unto thyself, I will rehearse compendiously the division of a man, after the description of Origene, for he followeth Paul making three parts, the spirit, the soul and the flesh, which three parts Paul joined together, writing to the Thessalonieences. That your spirit (saith he) your soul and your body may be kept clean and uncorrupt, that ye be not blamed or accused at the coming of our Lord Jesu Christ. And Esaias (leaving out the lowest part) maketh mention of two, saying, My soul shall desire and long for thee in the night, yea, and in my spirit and my heart strings I will wake in the mornings for to please thee. Also Daniel saith, Let the spirits and souls of good men laud God. Out of the which places of scripture Origene gathereth not against reason the three partitions of man, that is to wit, the body, otherwise called the flesh, the most vile part of us, wherein the malicious serpent through original trespass hath I written the law of sin, wherewithal we be provoked to filthiness. And also if we be overcome, we be coupled and made one with the devil. Then the spirit wherein we represent the similitude of the nature of God, in which also our most blessed maker after the original pattern and example of his own mind hath graven the eternal law of honesty with his finger, that is, with his spirit the Holy Ghost. By this part we be knit to God, and made one with him. In the third place, and in the midst between these two he putteth the soul, which is partaker of the sensible wits and natural motions.”

Erasmus, D. (1905). Enchiridion Militis Christiani (pp. 104–106). London: Methuen & Co.

 

[D-D-W]

I think your "trichotomous view" is much easier to sum up than what you wrote. It is all in Genesis 2:

7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Dust = apar (H6083) and is the body
Breath = n'samah (H5397) and is the spirit (elsewhere called ruach)
Living being = nefesh (H5315) usually translated soul.

But since man was created in God's image, and God is one, and 3; He is also 7**; and so I believe man is more complex than just triune.

**Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

 

[eddif]

It is essential to understand or else realise that the language of the New Testament is not English. It is Common Greek of the Hellenistic influence. When the Greeks began to assimilate the meaning and implications of the spirit, as distinct from the personality, and the personality as distinct from the physical body, these terms - Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, & Σάρξ (Spirit, Soul & Body) began to fall into intellectual usage in the ancient world. There had already been a separate directly satanic influence on ancient Egypt through magical texts and meanings associated with the worship of false gods and the manipulation of the very elements. From the management of the river Nile, food production, accumulated wealth, improved health, increased happiness and a multitude of other daily realities and ambitions - the Egyptians were practising formal magical arts as a mechanism for directing their lives. Assyria similarly practised what amounted to the same magical art as could be found in Egypt. In these cultures, it is possible to find a corresponding use of terms as those of the Hebrews and eventually the Greeks, yet with no direct revelation of God to make substance and validity of their meanings. For this reason, there has always been an occult equivalence of these terms which have over time become so closely paralleled with the true meaning of these words, that claiming a trichotomous understanding of man, is beginning to be expressed itself as an occult insight.

I absolutely do not know how you will put up with me.

The following two verses sum up the amount I selected for my first comment.
1 Corinthians 12:1 kjv
1. Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

The leading while Gentiles was evil. There was something spiritual but it was against Christ Jesus. Verse 3
1 Corinthians 12:3

eddif

 

[eddif]

I think your "trichotomous view" is much easier to sum up than what you wrote. It is all in Genesis 2:

7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Dust = apar (H6083) and is the body
Breath = n'samah (H5397) and is the spirit (elsewhere called ruach)
Living being = nefesh (H5315) usually translated soul.

But since man was created in God's image, and God is one, and 3; He is also 7**; and so I believe man is more complex than just triune.

**Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

I had not read your post when I posted. If you look at the fall of man in Genesis, we are making similar statements. No matter how wonderful our creation: We can be led the wrong direction.

eddif

 

[D-D-W]

I had not read your post when I posted. If you look at the fall of man in Genesis, we are making similar statements. No matter how wonderful our creation: We can be led the wrong direction.

Indeed we can. James sums it up nicely; written to believers:

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

 

[rhomphaeam]

I absolutely do not know how you will put up with me.

The following two verses sum up the amount I selected for my first comment.
1 Corinthians 12:1 kjv
1. Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

The leading while Gentiles was evil. There was something spiritual but it was against Christ Jesus. Verse 3
1 Corinthians 12:3

eddif

So here is the Scripture you have quoted, brother.

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:1-3 NASB) You quoted KJV.

You say that you are not sure how I will put up with you - but that aside may I ask what you are saying?

You have narrated the verses and added some commentary - which raises all manner of possible meanings. I don't want to presume your meaning - hence my asking.

Rhomphaeam

 

[rhomphaeam]

I think your "trichotomous view" is much easier to sum up than what you wrote. It is all in Genesis 2:

7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Dust = apar (H6083) and is the body
Breath = n'samah (H5397) and is the spirit (elsewhere called ruach)
Living being = nefesh (H5315) usually translated soul.

But since man was created in God's image, and God is one, and 3; He is also 7**; and so I believe man is more complex than just triune.

**Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν. (Genesis 2:7 Septuagint) וַיִּיצֶר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ ֣אֲדָמָ֔הוַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה׃ (Genesis 2:7 Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia)

Spirit, Soul and Body

Pneuma (πνοὴν) the term spirit, refers to breath. This word from 1 Thessalonians 5:23 derives from the root word pnoe (πνοή), and signifies the breath of life.This same word is used in the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) and is the word πνοὴν in Genesis 2:7. (Above).

Psuche (ψυχή), the term soul, or life, is translated heart in Ephesians (6:6). It is the same Greek word used in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 for the soul. It denotes the seat of the personality as well as the power of volition (choosing). It is the individual.

Soma (σωμα) is the physical body. The Greek word for body in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is different to the word dust in Genesis 2:7. This is because Genesis is dealing with the original material from which the body was formed. Whereas Thessalonians is a conception of the body as a living biological entity after God breathed into the form of man, the breath of life. Genesis 2:7 is a narrative of how the body came into existence as a biological entity, as well as an explanation of the original material used. Whereas, 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is a concern for the living.

As you have elected to give a Hebrew lexical definition to what is already translated from Hebrew, by Hebrew scholars for the Septuagint, which I have included in the three versions of Genesis 2:7 - as well the Greek parse in English - perhaps a closer look at the Hebrew will prove more illuminating than relying on the Greek of the Septuagint. At least in showing that in Hebrew the meaning of Genesis 2:7 as an expression of the Greek transliteration psuche from which we derive the English translation of the term soul is not so simple as claiming that the Hebrew term tells us what soul means when we read and man became a living soul in Genesis 2:7.

The below extract from Vine’s Expository Dictionary will explain the point. But to say it myself - In Hebrew the term nepesh already carries a meaning that alludes to an internal and external meaning as a unitary expression of the man. It is for that reason why some believers prefer to disregard Greek and stick with Hebrew. The point about that is of course it makes almost the entirety of the New Testament meaningless insofar as defining salvation or explaining many significant passages relating to the believers cross.

nepesh (נֶֶפֶשׁ, 5315), “soul; self; life; person; heart.”

This is a very common term in both ancient and modern Semitic languages. It occurs over 780 times in the Old Testament and is evenly distributed in all periods of the text with a particularly high frequency in poetic passages.

The basic meaning is apparently related to the rare verbal form, napash. The noun refers to the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath. However, from that concrete concept, a number of more abstract meanings were developed. In its primary sense the noun appears in its first occurrence in Gen. 1:20: “the moving creature that hath life,” and in its second occurrence in Gen. 2:7: “living soul.”

However, in over 400 later occurrences it is translated “soul.” While this serves to make sense in most passages, it is an unfortunate mistranslation of the term. The real difficulty of the term is seen in the inability of almost all English translations to find a consistent equivalent or even a small group of high-frequency equivalents for the term. The kjv alone uses over 28 different English terms for this one Hebrew word. The problem with the English term “soul” is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language.

The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the terms “body” and “soul,” which are really Greek and Latin in origin. The Hebrew contrasts two other concepts which are not found in the Greek and Latin tradition: “the inner self” and “the outer appearance” or, as viewed in a different context, “what one is to oneself” as opposed to “what one appears to be to one’s observers.” The inner person is nepesh, while the outer person, or reputation, is shem, most commonly translated “name.” In narrative or historical passages of the Old Testament, nepesh can be translated as “life” or “self,” as in Lev. 17:11: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for [yourselves].…” Needless to say, the reading “soul” is meaningless in such a text.

VINE’S COMPLETE EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY OF OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT WORDS

That aside your last comment needs some explanation and seeing as you tell me that this makes the whole account of man more complex I wonder if you wouldn't mind explaining it yourself.

You said:

But since man was created in God's image, and God is one, and 3; He is also 7**; and so I believe man is more complex than just triune.

**Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

 

[eddif]

And

So here is the Scripture you have quoted, brother.

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:1-3 NASB) You quoted KJV.

You say that you are not sure how I will put up with you - but that aside may I ask what you are saying?

You have narrated the verses and added some commentary - which raises all manner of possible meanings. I don't want to presume your meaning - hence my asking.

Rhomphaeam

The point is that without our understanding what is going on we are controlled by evil leading us where evil wants us. Sort of like the Covid virus taking control of cells for its purpose.

The next point will be that spiritual gifts will be able to work the desire of God in us and others.

In some cases physical healing will convince us and others that spiritual healing is possible from God.

When the secrets of our hearts are revealed we realize God is at work.

eddif

 

[rhomphaeam]

And

The point is that without our understanding what is going on we are controlled by evil leading us where evil wants us. Sort of like the Covid virus taking control of cells for its purpose.

The next point will be that spiritual gifts will be able to work the desire of God in us and others.

In some cases physical healing will convince us and others that spiritual healing is possible from God.

When the secrets of our hearts are revealed we realize God is at work.

eddif

In reverse order.

That is a gift of prophecy as defined in the Scripture. And of course a far cry from the many prophecies that are described as a gift of prophecy - and which rather than lead us by the inner witness of our hearts being made manifest in some manner or other - serve to lead millions into many severe problems.

I agree that is some cases a physical healing can lead to spiritual healing. The widow and Elijah is a good example. When Elijah prophecies oil and flour to a woman that was about to have her last meal with her son and then die - it was her son from the dead some time later that had her declare that she now knew that Elijah was a man of God - And not the supernatural provision of the oil and the flour.

Spiritual gifts ought to work the desired purpose of God - but that would also depend on the heart of the one receiving the benefit - if they will not humble themselves in some manner to see God - as the word says "they will declare knowing that God is in the midst" being the humble declaration - or as Nicodemus began by telling the Lord that he knew that He [Jesus] was sent by God - the things which Christ did being the evidence to the contrary (as far as we know).

I disagree that a lack of understanding produces any more consequence to a demonic meaning of unclean spirits - but I do agree that the flesh lends itself to the devil and so the flesh can be a manifestly wicked thing. As the Lord said to the twelve "Have I not chosen all of you yet one of you is a devil." This speaking of Judas ' yet Judas was first possessed when he entered the temple to betray Christ and then again at the supper table when he passed into irredeemable treachery. On the other hand Judas was among those who cast out devils and came back excited that the devils were subject to the name of Jesus - and Jesus said to the pharisees that the devil cannot cast out the devil because a kingdom cannot be divided (in a semblance). So Judas as an aspotle in the flesh (as he was always a thief) cast out demons in the name of Christ - and then in the flesh lent himself to possession and betrayal.

 

[eddif]

IMHO man starts out as a more two part person.
Living soul.

It is not till the born again experience of the spiritual that the three parts of man begin to have life.

Maybe that is too simplistic. The Jew has
The advantage of having a long relationship of knowing God. The downside is they were under a schoolmaster of the Law, till Christ was revealed.

The NT born again Christian Jews began to write and live differently. They make statements like (the two women were two covenants). They do not speak of endless genealogies, but Pardes / the parable of the Sower begin to replace the physical.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

In reverse order.

That is a gift of prophecy as defined in the Scripture. And of course a far cry from the many prophecies that are described as a gift of prophecy - and which rather than lead us by the inner witness of our hearts being made manifest in some manner or other - serve to lead millions into many severe problems.

I agree that is some cases a physical healing can lead to spiritual healing. The widow and Elijah is a good example. When Elijah prophecies oil and flour to a woman that was about to have her last meal with her son and then die - it was her son from the dead some time later that had her declare that she now knew that Elijah was a man of God - And not the supernatural provision of the oil and the flour.

Spiritual gifts ought to work the desired purpose of God - but that would also depend on the heart of the one receiving the benefit - if they will not humble themselves in some manner to see God - as the word says "they will declare knowing that God is in the midst" being the humble declaration - or as Nicodemus began by telling the Lord that he knew that He [Jesus] was sent by God - the things which Christ did being the evidence to the contrary (as far as we know).

I disagree that a lack of understanding produces any more consequence to a demonic meaning of unclean spirits - but I do agree that the flesh lends itself to the devil and so the flesh can be a manifestly wicked thing. As the Lord said to the twelve "Have I not chosen all of you yet one of you is a devil." This speaking of Judas ' yet Judas was first possessed when he entered the temple to betray Christ and then again at the supper table when he passed into irredeemable treachery. On the other hand Judas was among those who cast out devils and came back excited that the devils were subject to the name of Jesus - and Jesus said to the pharisees that the devil cannot cast out the devil because a kingdom cannot be divided (in a semblance). So Judas as an aspotle in the flesh (as he was always a thief) cast out demons in the name of Christ - and then in the flesh lent himself to possession and betrayal.

Can't read all your posts but I agree with you that we are a trichotomy...
Body
Soul
Spirit

1 Thess 5:23

 

[eddif]

In reverse order.

That is a gift of prophecy as defined in the Scripture. And of course a far cry from the many prophecies that are described as a gift of prophecy - and which rather than lead us by the inner witness of our hearts being made manifest in some manner or other - serve to lead millions into many severe problems.

I ……..

Regarding the first paragraph
1 Corinthians 14:23 kjv
23. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24. But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25. And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

I agree there can be people led down a wrong path by supposed prophesy.
But
If the prophesy is in their own language (sometimes through interpretation)
Then
if the plural messages agree with the inward witness of the person receiving the message,
a true prophecy may have been given.

This all does not have to be under the umbrella of a charismatic service. IMHO it could be in most any service where:
The announcements fit the person
The hymns fit the person
The sermon fits the person
The closing prayer fits the person
etc.

And the inner witness says wow God just saw my heart through these people.

Can you tell I have been through both types of situations / services? True and False. You just have to know that there is a true application of God speaking to his people. Tongues by themselves do not speak to people, but true tongues with interpretation can. In the very worse situation God can speak. I do not promote bad situations, but sometimes the bad high priest speaks the truth ( like Jesus before the high priest).
John 11:50

eddif

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

The scary thing is -- I UNDERSTAND much of the discussion on Trichotomous and Dichotomous - and I too agree primarily with the Tri because we are Spirit Soul and Body. But a lot of times Paul writes as if there is a dichotomy of spirit and body - or sarx vs nous - we must be prepared to deal with both the TRICH and the DICH; and further more -
I guess we must be prepared to see ourselves as FOUR things

Mar 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

The paralells in Deuteronomy and Matthew are Trichotomous. but Mark has 4 parts of ourselves.

Quadrotomous?

 

[rhomphaeam]

IMHO man starts out as a more two part person.
Living soul.

It is not till the born again experience of the spiritual that the three parts of man begin to have life.

Maybe that is too simplistic. The Jew has
The advantage of having a long relationship of knowing God. The downside is they were under a schoolmaster of the Law, till Christ was revealed.

The NT born again Christian Jews began to write and live differently. They make statements like (the two women were two covenants). They do not speak of endless genealogies, but Pardes / the parable of the Sower begin to replace the physical.

eddif

I have been pondering whether to respond to this post, brother. The reason may be clear if I explain. Yet in a very real sense you have struck a chord that ought to be taken into account. So let me post a small paragraph from the main article here: First posted at #5 in this OP.

For example, the physical body itself is often referred to in terms of God’s creative authority. God made the man. This is true of his body, as it is true of his soul. Yet the Scripture clearly points to something of another way of thinking about the body and the soul beyond speaking about physical creation. There is clearly a view of the body which is expressed in terms that go beyond a simple physical description. This difference points to the problem of having the attitude of remaining a natural man after conversion.

And the element of your post that seems to carry a similar meaning to the now red element of my own post is the first line. My entire concern and calling has to do with believers. So naturally I am concerned about many things. Yet it seems to be that whilst I cannot be certain what chronology you are alluding to in your IMHO comment - my own red line meaning seems to parallel the bipartite principle you speak of as 'how man starts out' because it speaks about a failure to make a distinction when believers are no more than mere men (to use Paul's language). and that is effectively a failure for others to see the new man in Christ in the earthen vessel of the soul that takes His name (i.e. the believer). Of course that is qualified by saying that I am speaking about born again Christians and not Adam which may have been your meaning. But I did find that I was taken to thinking somewhat more deeply - And hence the delay in responding.

The Hebrew linguistic route to explaining the composition of man, as Adam in Genesis 2:7, essentially produces a view that lends itself to a psychological meaning pertaining to the soul - psyche - and ends up in an heretical effect when speaking of being born again. Thats another matter. So may I ask what you intended by the expression, "man starts out as a more two part person"?

 

[eddif]

I have been pondering whether to respond to this post, brother. The reason may be clear if I explain. Yet in a very real sense you have struck a chord that ought to be taken into account. So let me post a small paragraph from the main article here: First posted at #5 in this OP.



And the element of your post that seems to carry a similar meaning to the now red element of my own post is the first line. My entire concern and calling has to do with believers. So naturally I am concerned about many things. Yet it seems to be that whilst I cannot be certain what chronology you are alluding to in your IMHO comment - my own red line meaning seems to parallel the bipartite principle you speak of as 'how man starts out' because it speaks about a failure to make a distinction when believers are no more than mere men (to use Paul's language). and that is effectively a failure for others to see the new man in Christ in the earthen vessel of the soul that takes His name (i.e. the believer). Of course that is qualified by saying that I am speaking about born again Christians and not Adam which may have been your meaning. But I did find that I was taken to thinking somewhat more deeply - And hence the delay in responding.

The Hebrew linguistic route to explaining the composition of man, as Adam in Genesis 2:7, essentially produces a view that lends itself to a psychological meaning pertaining to the soul - psyche - and ends up in an heretical effect when speaking of being born again. Thats another matter. So may I ask what you intended by the expression, "man starts out as a more two part person"?

This will strain my redneck brain. I may have to take this by stages over time as we interact on the subject. I suppose I could try and get it all into one post, but the carnal mind does try and assert itself.

2 Chronicles 7:14 kjv
14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

IMHO
This information about prayer is under the law, but written by prophets at this time (?). Why say that? Well the Spirit of God is expressing itself to write the scripture above. So we might say well it is a 3 part person writing here.

Matthew 13:17 kjv
17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

I can not (at this time) explain this statement fully. The writers were giving the Word but the spiritual understanding part of them was not complete (?).

Moving back to about prayer. All the works under the law:
Humble themselves
Pray
Seek my face
Turn from their wicked ways

What would it accomplish?
God would hear from heaven
Forgive their sin
Heal their land.

What is missing?
Eternal life with God in heaven.

Looks like a two part person to me, or at least raises a question or two.

Is the Messiah prophesied to come elsewhere? Yes.
Is the coming Law placed in heart and mind mentioned elsewhere? Yes.

In the New Testament John the Baptist is still saying the one who comes after me will baptise you in the Holy Spirit and Fire. The new birth had not arrived even then.

You do realize you asked a Mississippi redneck a question (?), A redneck with no letters after his name that qualify his answer. A redneck who only has time in the wilderness to come by answers. One who wears coveralls with welding slag holes and dirt on his hands. An outcast from almost every one.

We can go other places later

eddif