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The Trichotomous and Dichotomous View

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rhomphaeam

 
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The scary thing is -- I UNDERSTAND much of the discussion on Trichotomous and Dichotomous - and I too agree primarily with the Tri because we are Spirit Soul and Body. But a lot of times Paul writes as if there is a dichotomy of spirit and body - or sarx vs nous - we must be prepared to deal with both the TRICH and the DICH; and further more -
I guess we must be prepared to see ourselves as FOUR things

Mar 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

The paralells in Deuteronomy and Matthew are Trichotomous. but Mark has 4 parts of ourselves.

Quadrotomous?

and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. ASV

andthoushaltlovetheLordthyGodwithallthy
καὶἀγαπήσειςκύριονσουτὸν θεόνἐξὅληςσου
heart,andwithallthysoul,andwithallthy
τῆς καρδίαςκαὶἐξὅληςσουτῆς ψυχῆςκαὶἐξὅληςσου
mind,andwithallthystrength.
τῆς διανοίαςκαὶἐξὅληςσουτῆς ἰσχύος

HEART

καρδία [kardia /kar·dee·ah/] n f. Prolonged from a primary kar (Latin, cor, “heart”); TDNT 3:605; TDNTA 415; GK 2840; 160 occurrences; AV translates as “heart” 159 times, and “broken hearted + 4937” once. 1 the heart. 1a that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life. 1b denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life. 2a the vigour and sense of physical life. 2b the centre and seat of spiritual life. 2b1 the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours. 2b2 of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence. 2b3 of the will and character. 2b4 of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions. 1c of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate.

The heart, in its moral significance in the OT, includes the emotions, the reason and the will. (W. E Vine)

SOUL

psuche (ψυχή, 5590), the soul, or life, is rendered “heart” in Eph. 6:6 (marg., “soul”), “doing the will of God from the heart.” In Col. 3:23, a form of the word psuche preceded by ek, from, lit., “from (the) soul,” is rendered “heartily.” (Strong's)

The Lemma for SOUL is ψυχή (Lexical) and the manuscript for SOUL is τῆς [article - genitive singular feminine of the ψυχῆς (soul). Being in the manuscript as τῆς ψυχῆς as in the table.

MIND

logismos (λογισμός, 3053), “a reasoning, a thought” (akin to logizomai, “to count, reckon”), is translated “thoughts” in Rom. 2:15, suggestive of evil intent, not of mere reasonings; “imaginations” in 2 Cor. 10:5 (rv, marg., “reasonings,” in each place). The word suggests the contemplation of actions as a result of the verdict of conscience. (Strong's)

The Lemma for MIND is λογισμός (Lexical) and the manuscript for MIND is τῆς [article - genitive singular feminine of the διανοίας (mind). Being in the manuscript as τῆς διανοίας as in the table.

STRENGTH

dunamis (δύναμις, 1411) is (a) “power, ability,” physical or moral, as residing in a person or thing; (b) “power in action,” (Strong's)

The Lemma for STRENGTH is δύναμις (Lexical) and the manuscript for STRENGTH is τῆς [article - genitive singular feminine of the ἰσχύος (STRENGTH). Being in the manuscript as τῆς ἰσχύος as in the table.

Does that speak of a Quadripartite being or a being in object (composite) - heart and soul and in direction - to think and to will (to act) towards God? Seems more like a two part man to myself if defined linguistically from the Greek.

και αγαπησεις κυριον τον θεον σου εξ ολης της καρδιας σου και εξ ολης της ψυχης σου και εξ ολης της διανοιας σου και εξ ολης της ισχυος σου

Rhomphaeam
 
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DancesWithGnostics

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Rhomph - you do good word studies - I studied Greek but never any Hebrew.

I put some stuff on Trich vs Dich in my Introduction thread by mistake.

I am unfamiliar with the term "Lemma".
 

rhomphaeam

 
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Rhomph - you do good word studies - I studied Greek but never any Hebrew.

I put some stuff on Trich vs Dich in my Introduction thread by mistake.

I am unfamiliar with the term "Lemma".

Screenshot 2021-11-21 at 18.14.22.png

Lemma simply means the grammatical contract in a lexical or else dictionary definition of a word. Different to what appears on the manuscript (not always) and different to the meaning of the root which can have multiple cognate (linguistic) source language roots that produce different semantic domains (ideas). So its good to be able to reference the manuscript and see what is there before reading the lexical definition - otherwise the lexical meaning may deflect from the intended meaning in the manuscript. The above is from the ASV 1901 with Hebrew and Greek manuscript sources from both Alexandrian, Byzantine and Ecclesiastical texts.

Rhomphaeam
 

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That aside your last comment needs some explanation and seeing as you tell me that this makes the whole account of man more complex I wonder if you wouldn't mind explaining it yourself.
My quote of Revelation was just one of several where it mentions the "seven spirits of God." The only explanation I can find in scripture is in Isaiah:

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.


If you count them, there are 7 distinct functions (and perhaps persons) listed here.

The Spirit of :
  1. the Lord
  2. wisdom
  3. understanding
  4. counsel
  5. strength
  6. knowledge
  7. fear of the Lord

Are these the same as the 7 in Revelation? We do not know. How are these interrelated and work with "Father Son and Spirit?" Again, that is never revealed in scripture. And since it is not clearly spelled out for us, we do not NEED to know.

BUT - since man is made in the image (zelem - H6754) of God; (Gen 1.26-27) and since God is more complex just "2 in one" or "3 in one," I posit that man is also more complex. The details of that will only be seen at the end of time.
 

rhomphaeam

 
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My quote of Revelation was just one of several where it mentions the "seven spirits of God." The only explanation I can find in scripture is in Isaiah:

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.


If you count them, there are 7 distinct functions (and perhaps persons) listed here.

The Spirit of :
  1. the Lord
  2. wisdom
  3. understanding
  4. counsel
  5. strength
  6. knowledge
  7. fear of the Lord

Are these the same as the 7 in Revelation? We do not know. How are these interrelated and work with "Father Son and Spirit?" Again, that is never revealed in scripture. And since it is not clearly spelled out for us, we do not NEED to know.

BUT - since man is made in the image (zelem - H6754) of God; (Gen 1.26-27) and since God is more complex just "2 in one" or "3 in one," I posit that man is also more complex. The details of that will only be seen at the end of time.

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. And He will delight in the fear of the Lord, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist. And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea. Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious. Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, And those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim. They will swoop down on the slopes of the Philistines on the west; Together they will plunder the sons of the east; They will possess Edom and Moab, And the sons of Ammon will be subject to them. And the Lord will utterly destroy The tongue of the Sea of Egypt; And He will wave His hand over the River With His scorching wind; And He will strike it into seven streams And make men walk over dry-shod. And there will be a highway from Assyria For the remnant of His people who will be left, Just as there was for Israel In the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt. Isaiah 11:1-16

Shalom
 
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D-D-W

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View attachment 13316

Lemma simply means the grammatical contract in a lexical or else dictionary definition of a word. Different to what appears on the manuscript (not always) and different to the meaning of the root which can have multiple cognate (linguistic) source language roots that produce different semantic domains (ideas). So its good to be able to reference the manuscript and see what is there before reading the lexical definition - otherwise the lexical meaning may deflect from the intended meaning in the manuscript. The above is from the ASV 1901 with Hebrew and Greek manuscript sources from both Alexandrian, Byzantine and Ecclesiastical texts.

Rhomphaeam
Um - you have no Hebrew in there at all. The verses quoted in v 30 (Deut 6.5) and v 31 (Lev 19.18) both start with the same word: v'ahavta. "And you shall love ..." In the previous century Rabbi Hillel (grandfather of Gamaliel; Paul's mentor) also said those 2 commands were the whole Torah (teaching - NOT "law") of God.
 

rhomphaeam

 
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Um - you have no Hebrew in there at all. The verses quoted in v 30 (Deut 6.5) and v 31 (Lev 19.18) both start with the same word: v'ahavta. "And you shall love ..." In the previous century Rabbi Hillel (grandfather of Gamaliel; Paul's mentor) also said those 2 commands were the whole Torah (teaching - NOT "law") of God.

Septuagint. And as I said in the post you have referenced Alexandrian, Byzantine and Ecclesiastical texts.

If I take the Hebrew root then we may find ourselves correcting Christ.
 

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If I take the Hebrew root then we may find ourselves correcting Christ.
OR - you may find that we are correcting a false version of Christ; a "Christ" of Greek thought rather than the most observant Orthodox Jew that ever lived.
 

rhomphaeam

 
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OR - you may find that we are correcting a false version of Christ; a "Christ" of Greek thought rather than the most observant Orthodox Jew that ever lived.

I reject what I have found in the spirit in which you now speak and remain steadfast in it. I know Christ raised from the dead - and not a linguistic phantom that predicates to a Shari'ah meaning.
 

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and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. ASV

andthoushaltlovetheLordthyGodwithallthy
καὶἀγαπήσειςκύριονσουτὸν θεόνἐξὅληςσου
heart,andwithallthysoul,andwithallthy
τῆς καρδίαςκαὶἐξὅληςσουτῆς ψυχῆςκαὶἐξὅληςσου
mind,andwithallthystrength.
τῆς διανοίαςκαὶἐξὅληςσουτῆς ἰσχύος

HEART

καρδία [kardia /kar·dee·ah/] n f. Prolonged from a primary kar (Latin, cor, “heart”); TDNT 3:605; TDNTA 415; GK 2840; 160 occurrences; AV translates as “heart” 159 times, and “broken hearted + 4937” once. 1 the heart. 1a that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life. 1b denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life. 2a the vigour and sense of physical life. 2b the centre and seat of spiritual life. 2b1 the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours. 2b2 of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence. 2b3 of the will and character. 2b4 of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions. 1c of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate.

The heart, in its moral significance in the OT, includes the emotions, the reason and the will. (W. E Vine)

SOUL

psuche (ψυχή, 5590), the soul, or life, is rendered “heart” in Eph. 6:6 (marg., “soul”), “doing the will of God from the heart.” In Col. 3:23, a form of the word psuche preceded by ek, from, lit., “from (the) soul,” is rendered “heartily.” (Strong's)

The Lemma for SOUL is ψυχή (Lexical) and the manuscript for SOUL is τῆς [article - genitive singular feminine of the ψυχῆς (soul). Being in the manuscript as τῆς ψυχῆς as in the table.

MIND

logismos (λογισμός, 3053), “a reasoning, a thought” (akin to logizomai, “to count, reckon”), is translated “thoughts” in Rom. 2:15, suggestive of evil intent, not of mere reasonings; “imaginations” in 2 Cor. 10:5 (rv, marg., “reasonings,” in each place). The word suggests the contemplation of actions as a result of the verdict of conscience. (Strong's)

The Lemma for MIND is λογισμός (Lexical) and the manuscript for MIND is τῆς [article - genitive singular feminine of the διανοίας (mind). Being in the manuscript as τῆς διανοίας as in the table.

STRENGTH

dunamis (δύναμις, 1411) is (a) “power, ability,” physical or moral, as residing in a person or thing; (b) “power in action,” (Strong's)

The Lemma for STRENGTH is δύναμις (Lexical) and the manuscript for STRENGTH is τῆς [article - genitive singular feminine of the ἰσχύος (STRENGTH). Being in the manuscript as τῆς ἰσχύος as in the table.

Does that speak of a Quadripartite being or a being in object (composite) - heart and soul and in direction - to think and to will (to act) towards God? Seems more like a two part man to myself if defined linguistically from the Greek.

και αγαπησεις κυριον τον θεον σου εξ ολης της καρδιας σου και εξ ολης της ψυχης σου και εξ ολης της διανοιας σου και εξ ολης της ισχυος σου

Rhomphaeam
thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength

Heart - who I am, the core of who I am that feel pain, joy, success, failure, that controls and gives direction.
Soul - the emotions that summarise where I am and how I feel about everything around me
Mind - the modeller who makes sense of the world and establishes facts and paths to go down
Strength - the energy I use to walk the path I choose to walk

When the soul goes haywire and needs to be closed down, the mind tries to work out why.
When everyday events occur, the soul tells the heart its response without needing the mind to get involved.
One problem with this model of who we are is it misses out the inbuilt need for love, security, giving and receiving with others. Layered on top of that is defence mechanisms to protect against further hurt, and distrust and anger that can be triggered to stop this hurt getting out.

Then there is Jesus and the spiritual dimension. The laying of the foundation in Christ that heals the hurts, lowers the barriers, straightens the paths, and opens the gates.

I have met people who simply say a human is soul and body until they are born again with an eternal spirit. They then suggested this spirit is what will live in heaven eternally while the soul and body die. Salvation therefore becomes the magic addition of eternity to the mortal, and excusing sin and bad behaviour on the flesh alone, letting the sinner continue as before until the flesh dies. This is an alien theology not part of salvation in reality. We are not our bodies, for they will be transformed, from mortal to immortal, but we are expressed in a physical form which holds us for eternity.

Modern medicine and studies of the brain, show our existence is the interplay between our hearts, our emotions and our minds. Modern therapy has identified anxiousness and fear can be very destructive while security and love very healing. These are both issues Jesus addresses straight on, yet theology and its discussion often side steps this and people find little practical application in their lives.
 

D-D-W

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I reject what I have found in the spirit in which you now speak and remain steadfast in it. I know Christ raised from the dead -
Absolutely. Resurrection of the dead is a firm Pharisaic belief. It continues on in Rabbinic Judaism.
Paragraph 2 of the Amidah - the standing prayer - says this:

You are eternally mighty, O Lord. You give life to the dead, You have great power to save.
You make the wind blow and the rain fall.
You sustain the living with kindness, you revive the dead with great mercy. You support the fallen, heal the sick, and set captives free, and keep faith with those who sleep in the dust. Who is like You, Mighty One, and who resembles You, King who slays and gives life, and makes salvation flourish? You are faithful to revive the dead.
Blessed are You, Lord, who revives the dead.


This prayer is recited 2 or 3 times EVERY DAY by observant Jews.
 

rhomphaeam

 
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Absolutely. Resurrection of the dead is a firm Pharisaic belief. It continues on in Rabbinic Judaism.
Paragraph 2 of the Amidah - the standing prayer - says this:

You are eternally mighty, O Lord. You give life to the dead, You have great power to save.
You make the wind blow and the rain fall.
You sustain the living with kindness, you revive the dead with great mercy. You support the fallen, heal the sick, and set captives free, and keep faith with those who sleep in the dust. Who is like You, Mighty One, and who resembles You, King who slays and gives life, and makes salvation flourish? You are faithful to revive the dead.
Blessed are You, Lord, who revives the dead.


This prayer is recited 2 or 3 times EVERY DAY by observant Jews.

I am not an 'observant' Jew. There is no need to offer me supposed Rabbinical Prayers so as to convince me that a firm Pharisaic view includes the resurrection of the dead. Islam includes the same belief. I would no more side with Islam than I would with Rabbinic Judaism in a Pharisaic meaning. Let us leave it there shall we?

You commented that my post had no Hebrew in it and I responded that I elected to withhold a Hebrew root meaning. I was posting to a brother who's claim was a mistaken claim and inferred that the passage he was citing to express a quadripartite view of the constitution of man in Genesis 2:7 was in a semblance of the Greek text a bipartite man. If you wish to make a Hebrew meaning from Torah then do so. I was responding to Mark 12:30 and not Deuteronomy 6:5 or Leviticus 19:18. I was establishing the validity of a claim and not making a Jurisprudent Shari'ah meaning of Torah. I read both of your comment at #7 and #10 then responded to your @7 post. So by all means make your own presentation - but I already asked that of you and you of your @7 post and the more complex view - then you tell me that it isn't possible. So If you want make a presentation to a Torah meaning of Genesis 2:7 then please do - but I have stated why I am refusing to play along. Take that to be the case and not some other case.
 

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One thing that stands out in the comments in this OP is just how the Hebrew and the Greek linguistic argument can come across very differently from one another. When parsing a Greek meaning such as this one here Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, and Σάρξ it is very difficult to resist a trichotomous view of the constitution of man as claimed in Genesis 2:7. And yet as we have seen when parsing a Greek text such as Mark 12:30 as in post #21 in this OP it is difficult not to sense that there is a unified sense of man being expressed and a bipartite sense of his being. I found this to be the same in 1985/6 when I first had a need to begin to study Hebrew and Greek. What I found then was a sense that the key to understanding this seeming distinction between a trichotomous and dichotomous position could be better settled when understood in terms of what the New Testament presented as to what is meant by being saved.

The Πνεῦμα, Ψυχή, and Σάρξ article expresses a New Testament view because it is based on John 3:5-8. And the foundational premise is based on Genesis 2:7 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24.

What I want to post now is a different way of arriving at the same meaning. This time the argument is also based in the Greek parse - as it is based on Matthew 16:24-27. What this way of studying the Greek New Testament gives us is a sense of two distinct doctrinal views. We know them as Calvinism and Arminianism. Put rather crudely it is that of Calvin where Unconditional Election - is God choosing us - and that of Arminius - where it is that of we choosing to follow God. Both are by grace and yet they postulate a significant problem that I believe can be seen in the very character of what it means to be saved as an expression of a partite view. And I should say that I am not seeking to break the forum rules and introduce a contentious doctrine. There is no need to discuss the Calvin and Arminius position. It is only necessary to sense where the issue of a doctrine of what constitutes a man as a Soteriological endeavour can help.

To Whit:

““If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.” Matthew 16:24-27 NASB).

“τοτε ο ιησους ειπεν τοις μαθηταις αυτου ει τις θελει οπισω μου ελθειν απαρνησασθω εαυτον και αρατω τον σταυρον αυτου και ακολουθειτω μοι ος γαρ εαν θελη την ψυχην αυτου σωσαι απολεσει αυτην ος δ αν απολεση την ψυχην αυτου ενεκεν εμου ευρησει αυτην τι γαρ ωφεληθησεται ανθρωπος εαν τον κοσμον ολον κερδηση την δε ψυχην αυτου ζημιωθη η τι δωσει ανθρωπος ανταλλαγμα της ψυχης αυτου μελλει γαρ ο υιος του ανθρωπου ερχεσθαι εν τη δοξη του πατρος αυτου μετα των αγγελων αυτου και τοτε αποδωσει εκαστω κατα την πραξιν αυτου” (Matthew 16:24-27). Novum Testamentum Graece.

The word life in verse 25 is the Greek ψυχην, transliterated psychén, and translated life. The word soul in verse 26 are the Greek words ψυχην and ψυχης, as in, “κερδηση την δε ψυχην αυτου ζημιωθη η τι δωσει ανθρωπος ανταλλαγμα της ψυχης αυτου μελλει.” Transliterated psychén and psychés respectively. They are both translated soul.

In trying to explore the emphasis on choosing in Matthew 16:24-27.

The Greek says, thelo (θέλω), for wishes and means to will or to desire something. This primarily speaks about a reasonable desire to do something that is right. In context it speaks about a proper response to the gospel itself, and qualifies or proves what follows on from saving faith. The godly desire to follow Christ, while sound in itself is conditional on denying oneself. This is not boulomai (βούλομαι), a determined will to follow Christ. Nor is it zeloo (ζηλόω), to have zeal to follow Christ. Neither is it, speudo (σπεύδω), to earnestly desire to follow Christ. Nor yet, aiteo (αἰτέω), to ask to follow Christ. It is a simple injunction of the Lord to take account of the true cost of discipleship and the only basis for obedience.

He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honour him.” (John 12:25-26),

It is out of that meaning where this issue of choosing or choice arises when utilising the Scripture to say that salvation or believing the Gospel is a matter of choosing to follow Christ. And whilst that precept is heretical if that leads to a works based salvation, the issue of choosing (wishing or desiring) to take up ones own cross is a maiter of true choice.

So what then does this losing ones life mean if salvation means to be saved? What is saved when we are born again? What is saved when we lose our lives as in the Matthew 16:24-27 passage and the John 12:25-26 passage. And when is the body saved?

Rhomphaeam
 
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rhomphaeam

 
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Here is a fuller way and a slightly different route to the same meaning as above @ #33

“There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:6-13 NASB).

In this passage from John, being saved is expressed as, “the right to become the children of God,” and it is the same in meaning as that which we all agree with when we speak of being born again. The word right in this passage is exousia (ἐξουσία). The English word, excused, from excūsare (Latin: meaning to be removed from an accusation) carries a similar meaning. We could say, “I needed to be excused in order to believe.”

It could also in the context of the passage itself, be expressed as, “I needed a reason to believe.” Or it could be said, “I needed the power to believe.” Or else it could be, “I needed light to believe”. Finally, it could be said, “I needed faith to believe.” In literal translation, the word exousia (ἐξουσία) means being given the right, ability and power to become something else. This something else is, to become “children of God”. Becoming the sons of God is by faith. And this means, “born of God.” Lastly, the qualifying condition to receive this power is to receive Christ Himself. There is no doubt therefore, that becoming the children of God means to be born from on high, or else to be born again of the Spirit of God. There is also no doubt that the thing that makes this possible is receiving Jesus. Receiving Jesus results in being given power, and that power is faith to believe in Jesus name, resulting in being born of God. In all of this no one could reasonably deny that we are “justified by faith” and “saved by grace.” So by the Scriptures alone we can establish that the ground for salvation is receiving Christ Himself. And if we receive Christ, we must also receive all that which proceeds from Him.

Thereto we are faced with a sudden and serious difficulty when we examine the words of Christ in another place.

““If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.” Matthew 16:24-27 NASB).

“τοτε ο ιησους ειπεν τοις μαθηταις αυτου ει τις θελει οπισω μου ελθειν απαρνησασθω εαυτον και αρατω τον σταυρον αυτου και ακολουθειτω μοι ος γαρ εαν θελη την ψυχην αυτου σωσαι απολεσει αυτην ος δ αν απολεση την ψυχην αυτου ενεκεν εμου ευρησει αυτην τι γαρ ωφεληθησεται ανθρωπος εαν τον κοσμον ολον κερδηση την δε ψυχην αυτου ζημιωθη η τι δωσει ανθρωπος ανταλλαγμα της ψυχης αυτου μελλει γαρ ο υιος του ανθρωπου ερχεσθαι εν τη δοξη του πατρος αυτου μετα των αγγελων αυτου και τοτε αποδωσει εκαστω κατα την πραξιν αυτου” (Matthew 16:24-27). Novum Testamentum Graece.

The word life in verse 25 is the Greek ψυχην, transliterated psychén, and translated life. The word soul in verse 26 are the Greek words ψυχην and ψυχης, as in, “κερδηση την δε ψυχην αυτου ζημιωθη η τι δωσει ανθρωπος ανταλλαγμα της ψυχης αυτου μελλει.” Transliterated psychén and psychés respectively. They are both translated soul.

In Genesis 2:7 we read, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul.” NASB

If we refer to the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) we can say, the word πνει (to blow) is from the same root as the word pnoe (πνοή) of which the word πνοὴν used in Genesis 2:7, is translated blew. As the English translation is breath of life, and makes reference to “and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7), so in John 3:8 the word wind, which “blows where it will” is the Greek πνευμα, denoting spiritual life, or the giving of spiritual life. When Jesus tells men that they must lose their lives in order to find their lives, He is speaking of the soul, and not the spirit. The word save in verse 25 is σωσαι from the root word sozo (σώζω). This word literally means to preserve one’s soul.

The word lose in verse 25 is απολεση and comes from the root apollumi (ἀπόλλυμι). The term is a simple, expressive form that speaks of the soul’s suffering when it sets itself to serving Christ fully because that obedience is predicated on a willingness to deny oneself. It also alludes to the fact that the soul takes its comfort from the body itself, being in such an ordinary condition of imprisonment to the lusts of the flesh, and therefore to go the same way that Christ chose to go, is to go the way of personal suffering for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. In short, it means, deny yourself and choose the way of the cross as Christ did.

The word find in verse 25 is εὑρίσκω and is transliterated heuriskó. In the simplest sense, finding something can either mean, to come upon a thing, by looking for it and in context means, “seek first the Kingdom of Heaven.” Or it may mean to indulge in something desired. In this instance, of the Lord’s words, find, carries both of these meanings. On the one hand, it means coming upon the pearl of great price, as a coming upon the kingdom. This is both now, inwardly, and in the future, when Christ returns. On the other hand, finding yourself now means fulfilling your own desires and refusing the cross.

Men and women cannot be more benefitted in life than to be born again unto a living hope, and sure faith. This benefit is chiefly unto eternal life and is a spiritual possession The soul however, is the thing that benefits chiefly through false teachings that express a supposed purpose of God in personal gratification as a basis for serving Christ, by whatsoever means; and it is clear that to take such a view of God’s will, is to take a wholly contrary opinion to Christ. As Christ cannot contradict the Father, then we can say that those who press such teachings are turning men from following Christ, unto their own selves.

The difficulty with all of this is how do we reconcile the claims of John 1:6-13 NASB where we read about a seeming unitary salvation and Matthew 16:24-27 NASB where we read that salvation means to lose your own life (soul) or else to save your own life (soul) by losing your own life? Yet John 3:5-8 defines new birth as a spiritual regeneration. That which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. It is our spirits that are born again and not the soul, else Matthew 16:24-27 and John 12:25-26 are mistaken because they assert contradictory claims to what it means to be saved if being saved simply means being born again. The only way I have encountered to settle that meaning is to assert both a trichotomous view and a dichotomous view of man. Both cannot be true and so we have a great problem. Or have we?

Rhomphaeam
 
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DancesWithGnostics

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This is from a STICKY under the THeology section:

"This subject of OSAS is no longer allowed to be argued, debated or even discussed.
Since way too many rescources are being used by this one subject we have to cut it off completely.
Too many people are losing their composure when discussing this topic. So in the interest of all, any debate of Calvinism vs Arminianism tenants of faith are no longer going to be allowed to be discussed."

Is this still the current position of Christianity.net?
 

rhomphaeam

 
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This is from a STICKY under the THeology section:

"This subject of OSAS is no longer allowed to be argued, debated or even discussed.
Since way too many rescources are being used by this one subject we have to cut it off completely.
Too many people are losing their composure when discussing this topic. So in the interest of all, any debate of Calvinism vs Arminianism tenants of faith are no longer going to be allowed to be discussed."

Is this still the current position of Christianity.net?

I am taking the position that this injucture as you have highlighted is still in force. Of course I can't say one way or the other. What I do know is that there is actually no need to precisely raise the so called OSAS position. Strangely it was that claim made by a sister in 1985/6 that began my own research into Hebrew and Greek meanings of Salvation beinning with Christ. Having discussed the so called OSAS position on other platforms where it is permitted. what I have found is that the arguments and discussions are so grave that when someone like myself comes also and begins to take a more balanced view grounded in a linguistic argument with predications to the meaning of Salvation and the partition of man - I am almost completely ignored - until that is I take a Calvinist position and then I am praised to the high heavens. I see that you are an Arminian - so unless we intend to fight in an ungodly way perhaps the historical ban would serve both our purposes and give all of us a chance to see a more mature argument and not a divisive doctrinal one. What say you, brother?
 

rhomphaeam

 
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This is where I begin to establish that the Lord is Salvation in order answer that question of our souls in Matthew 16:24-27 and John 12:25-26. @#33 and @#34.

Assemble yourselves that I may tell you what will befall you in the days to come. Gather together and hear, O sons of Jacob; And listen to Israel your father.”

This is the first time in the Scriptures that salvation by God is made direct reference to.


The Hebrew says לִֽישׁוּעָתְךָ֖ קִוִּ֥יתִי יְהוָֽה׃ Gen 49:18

לִֽישׁוּעָתְךָ֖ קִוִּ֥יתִי יְהוָֽה׃ (v18)

(v18) I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.

The word ישׁוּעָתְ is used in speaking of God’s deliverance.

yeshu’sh (יְשׁוּעָה) or יְשׁוּעָה (yâshuwʿah) from yasha (יָשַׁע,)

This same deliverance of God is used in other passages of Scripture, but here in this verse, this is the first time the word is used. It is the same in meaning as God is my deliverer. The Hebrew word ישׁוּעָתְ, employed in Exodus 17:9 וַיֹּ֨אמֶר מֹשֶׁ֤ה אֶל־יְהוֹשֻׁ֙עַ֙ בְּחַר־לָ֣נוּ, is translated, Joshua. The Greek name Iesous (Ιησου̂ς) [Jesus] is a transliteration of the Hebrew name, Joshua, meaning, Jehovah is salvation. Literally, Saviour.

As it is written, “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”(Matthew 1:21 NASB).

Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation, Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples. (Luke 2:29-31 NASB)

I used to think of salvation as many parts - and only when I realised that salvation is Christ - that the many things finally took a proper submission to Christ and I finally settled down to working out my own salvation with fear and trembling - realising that not only did I have to have Christ at the forefront of my mind - but all that which proceeds from Him also. In that meaning the Christian walk stops being a doctrinal issue - other than the doctrines of life - and becomes a matter of obedience. Its obvious no doubt to all who are born again - And yet somehow we so often fail to hold onto Christ and then we are in the flesh - and what transpires then is a matter of who we are in the flesh in our own lives. As I used to say to my more sensitive brethren - if they were in the flesh they may simply neglect to hold the door for me - and if I am in the flesh I will slam it in their face. Naturally after such an abrupt lesson I find myself holding the door for an entire discharge from the church. Its worth persevering with a little theatre and worth much more to convince your brethren that if we seek to understand the flesh and the meaning of the cross unto death daily - we will not find its meaning by digging into the flesh itself. We must go after Christ with all our hearts.

I have met people who simply say a human is soul and body until they are born again with an eternal spirit. They then suggested this spirit is what will live in heaven eternally while the soul and body die. Salvation therefore becomes the magic addition of eternity to the mortal, and excusing sin and bad behaviour on the flesh alone, letting the sinner continue as before until the flesh dies. This is an alien theology not part of salvation in reality. We are not our bodies, for they will be transformed, from mortal to immortal, but we are expressed in a physical form which holds us for eternity.

Modern medicine and studies of the brain, show our existence is the interplay between our hearts, our emotions and our minds. Modern therapy has identified anxiousness and fear can be very destructive while security and love very healing. These are both issues Jesus addresses straight on, yet theology and its discussion often side steps this and people find little practical application in their lives.

I wonder, brother if you could explain this part of your post @#30. Thank you.
 

eddif

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I guess we must be prepared to see ourselves as FOUR things

Mar 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
I think (dangerous) that we just have an overlay going on.

Two part man:
Carnal mind, will, emotions
Body (including Heart)

Three part man:
Mind will emotions
Spirit of mind (mind of Christ) added
Body (strength) table of shewbread Luke 22:30 Psalms 23:5 various other scriptures
( including new heart of flesh)

Help me here

eddif
 
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