The Trinity

[JLB]

Exodus 3:15 (NASB)
"God, furthermore, said to Moses, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.'"

Here, "the LORD" (in all caps) represents the tetragrammaton YHWH.

And Jesus plainly identifies Himself with that Name.

I AM.

Already answered, more than once. Please go back and read my posts. I'm not going to play your games.

This is exactly what I’m talking about, when you see the error in your theology.

You dodge and and attack.


Let me know when you are ready to continue this discussion by answering my question.

Here’s my scripture that show Jesus is the name of the LORD (YHWH) we call on to be saved.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

• whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) that this scripture from the book of Joel is referring to?

What is the name of the LORD we call on to be saved?

Here is the scripture from Joel that Paul quoted.

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
Joel 2:30-32

 

[JLB]

Exodus 3:15 (NASB)
"God, furthermore, said to Moses, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.'"

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


Was Moses looking at the Father or the Son?

 

[Johann!@#]

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


Was Moses looking at the Father or the Son?

JLB
No offense intended--since our last interaction, my posts were deleted, and since I’m new here, I’m just looking for a place where I can fit in, share encouragement, and be encouraged.

I can answer your question, but it looks like you have an issue with Free--you guys can sort that out.

Shalom.

J.

 

[JLB]

JLB
No offense intended--since our last interaction, my posts were deleted, and since I’m new here, I’m just looking for a place where I can fit in, share encouragement, and be encouraged.

I can answer your question, but it looks like you have an issue with Free--you guys can sort that out.

Shalom.

J.

Yes my post was to you. It has nothing to do with my post to Free.

You decided to post to me from Exodus 3.

I’m responding to that post.

Again, here is my question to you in response to your post to me.

• Was Moses looking at the Father or the Son?

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

 

[Johann!@#]

Yes my post was to you. It has nothing to do with my post to Free.

You always this argumentative?


Scholarly Support for Christ being the OT Angel of Yahweh
Sam Shamoun

The following is taken from the Holman Old Testament Commentary: Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Max Anders & Stephen Miller (general editors), Broadman & Holman Publishers, Nashville, TN 2004. This comes specifically from the section on Zechariah. It provides evidence which confirms that the Angel of Yahweh is not a creature, but a fully divine Person who just so happens to be the Lord Jesus in his prehuman existence.

B. The Angel of the LORD (3:1, 5-6)

In the Book of Zechariah, the prophet frequently interacted with angels. Sometimes these were ordinary angels (1:19; 4:1, 4, 11; 5:5, 10; 6:4-5), but in six cases “the angel of the LORD” designated God himself (1:11-12; 3:1, 5-6; 12:8). “Angel” means “messenger,” and in these instances the one who brought the message was deity. The rider of the red horse in 1:8 is identified as “the angel of the LORD” in 1:11. His preeminence is demonstrated by the fact that the other riders (angels) reported to him (1:11). In chapter 3 the angel of the Lord presided over the heavenly court. When he spoke in verse 2, he was identified as “the LORD.” In verse 4 the angel of the Lord forgave sins, a divine prerogative. In 12:8 the angel of the Lord was identified with both names – “the LORD” and “God.”

Elsewhere in the Old Testament the angel of the Lord is equated with deity. After Hagar, Sarah’s maid, encountered the angel of the Lord (Gen. 16:7-12), she called him “the God who sees me” (Gen. 16:13). In speaking to Abraham, the angel of the Lord said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD” (Gen. 22:16). The angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in a burning bush (Exod. 3:2). When Moses investigated, God spoke to him from the bush (Exod. 3:4-6). In the angel of the Lord’s conversation with Gideon, the text repeatedly identifies the speaker as “the LORD” (Judg. 6:11-24). Samson’s parents recognized that in their visit with the angel of the LORD, they had “seen God” (Judg. 13:20-22).

Evangelical scholars usually identify the angel of the Lord as a preincarnate appearance of Christ – the second person of the Trinity. Paul Enns offers the following support for this interpretation:

The theophanies prove His [Christ’s] eternal existence. A theophany may be defined thus: “It is the Second Person of the Trinity who appears thus in human form.” … The identification of Christ with the appearances of the angel of the Lord (the theophany) can be demonstrated in the following manner. The angel of the Lord is recognized as deity. He is referred to as God (Judg. 6:11, 14; note in verse 11 He is called “the angel of the LORD,” while in v. 14 He is called “LORD”). The angel of the Lord in other instances is distinct from Yahweh because He talks to Yahweh (Zech. 1:12; 3:1-2; cp. Gen. 24:7). The angel of the Lord could not have been the Spirit or the Father, because neither the Spirit nor the Father [is] ever revealed in physical form (cp. John 1:18). The angel of the Lord no longer appears after the incarnation of Christ. There is no mention of the angel of the Lord in the New Testament; He ceases to appear after the birth of Christ (Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology, Chicago: Moody Press, 1989, p. 216).

In the appearance of the angel of the Lord, we are granted a glimpse of Christ’s glory before his incarnation. He is fully God with all the prerogatives of God at his disposal. For example, he forgives sin (3:4), makes descendants numerous (Gen. 22:17; see Gen. 16:10), brings Israel out of Egypt (Judg. 2:1; cp. Exod. 23:20-21), knows the future (Judg. 13:3), and performs miracles (Exod. 3:2; Judg. 13:20). These passages also preview the doctrine of the Trinity (three persons–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit–one God). Even in the Old Testament era, it was revealed that our one God exists as more than one person. (Pp. 170-171)

1:8. Although it was night, the vision came not in a dream but while the prophet was awake. Zechariah saw a man riding a red horse. The word standing may refer to the horse upon which the rider sat or to the rider who had now stepped down from the horse. The man among the myrtle trees is identified in verse 11 as “the angel of the LORD,” yet he is no ordinary angel. Frequently in the Old Testament, the angel of the Lord is identified as God (Gen. 16:7-13; 22:11-12; Exod. 3:2-6; Judg. 6:14, 22; 13:9-18, 22). According to Lindsey, “That this ‘Angel’ (literally, ‘Messenger’) is a manifestation of the preincarnate Christ is established in chapter 3 where He is specifically called ‘the LORD’ who yet refers to ‘the LORD’ as another Person (3:2). Also He is seen exercising the divine prerogative of forgiving sins (3:4)” (Lindsey, 1550). Moreover, this person is plainly in command for the riders (angels) of the other horses report to him (v. 11). According to Feinberg, the Babylonian Talmud states: “This man is no other than the Holy One, blessed be He; for it is said, ‘The Lord is a man of war’” (Feinberg, Minor Prophets, 275). (P. 142)

In this verse one divine person (“the angel of the LORD” = preincarnate Christ) interceded to another, the LORD Almighty. Here we are afforded an Old Testament glimpse of the Trinity. This passage reminds us of Christ’s great intercessory prayer in John 17. (P. 144)

3:1. The phrase he showed me may refer to the interpreting angel or God. The words standing before the angel of the LORD have been interpreted to denote service, and the verb “to stand” does appear with this meaning in the Old Testament… We may observe the prominence of the angel of the Lord in this vision. He is plainly in charge. As in 1:11-12, the angel of the Lord is none other than the Lord himself. When the angel of the Lord speaks, verse 2 identifies him as “the LORD.” In verse 4 the angel of the Lord forgives sins, a divine prerogative. We may understand this divine person to be a preincarnate appearance of Christ. (P. 160)

3:4. The Lord (the angel of the Lord) commanded the angels in the vision to remove Joshua’s filthy clothes, symbolic of his forgiveness of sin (“iniquity,” KJV, NKJV, NASB; “guilt,” NRSV). These filthy garments represent moral defilement rather than ritual defilement because by this act Joshua’s sin was cleansed. The fact that the angel of the Lord had the power to forgive sins affirms his deity. Here Joshua’s justification, the act whereby the judge declares a person righteous or pardoned, is depicted. Justification implies deliverance from the penalty of sin. It is noteworthy that this act of forgiveness was accomplished by the Lord alone. Salvation is a work of God. (P. 163)

https://www.answering-islam.org/aut...pport for Christ being the OT Angel of Yahweh

Do your own homework son and don't drag me into this conversation.

J

 

[Free]

This is exactly what I’m talking about, when you see the error in your theology.

You dodge and and attack.

I have done no such thing. As I asked, show me where I have done so.

Let me know when you are ready to continue this discussion by answering my question.

As I already stated, I've done so more than once already. If you're not going to read what I post, that's on you.

Here’s my scripture that show Jesus is the name of the LORD (YHWH) we call on to be saved.

Show it all you want; the error is with your claim and the passage doesn't show what you want it to.

Again, your claim is problematic for the following reasons:

1) You're saying that "Jesus is the name of Yahweh," which is to say "Jesus is the name of the name of God." It is the same as saying that "Steve is the name of David." That makes no sense whatsoever; names don't have names.
2) If you're trying to say that "Jesus is the name of God," then, without any further clarification, that is Modalism/Oneness theology. That would be to say that Jesus is the name of the Trinity.

If you are trying to claim that Jesus is the name of the Son, who is both God and man, then you would be correct. But your wording as it is, is biblically incorrect and either supports Modalism/Onesness theology or is speaking nonsense.

God's name is Yahweh, correct? Jesus is the name only of the incarnate Son who is also God in nature, correct?

It would be helpful if you addressed the points of clarification I asked for instead of dodging by simply repeating your assertions.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

• whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) that this scripture from the book of Joel is referring to?

What is the name of the LORD we call on to be saved?

Here is the scripture from Joel that Paul quoted.

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
Joel 2:30-32

Again, here is a more clear translation of Joel 2:30-32:

Joe 2:30 And I will set wonders in the heavens, and on earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun will be changed to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Yahweh.
Joe 2:32 And it will happen—everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be rescued, because on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as Yahweh said, and among the survivors whom Yahweh is calling. (LEB)

That is to say, Paul is showing that it is by calling on the name of Jesus that we are saved, because of his atoning work and because he is Yahweh, just as the Father is. What Paul cannot be saying is that Jesus is the name of Yahweh.

 

[Free]

This comment is in the same category, and ignores the subterfuge and malice of the Pharisees, and their complete ignoring the theme of what Jesus previously stated. Their intent is to stir up some members of the volatile crowd, to throw a stone but they absolutely failed because of the clarity of Jesus' true teaching and the incident concerning the woman in the early part of chapter 8. Jesus had been talking about the true seed of Abraham, and here in this immediate context he stated:

John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jesus was referring to the fact that he was the true seed of Abraham, the one through whom the promises and the blessings would flow, not only by his ministry but also as the true burnt offering and the resurrection.

Genesis 22:13–14 (KJV): 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

But they were not interested in what he was saying, even if they understood his claim, and they deliberately muddied the waters to achieve their goal of stoning him, taking up the role of their decision to be the slayers of the perfect sin and burnt offering.

But Jesus claims that even though he was the promised seed of Abraham, he was also before Abraham. He was the seed promised concerning the seed of Eve:
Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Jesus was the seed of the woman and they were acting the role of the seed of the serpent as Jesus had previously stated and accused them of their murderous intent.

All of this ignores verse 57 and the question that was asked of Jesus. It doesn't matter that the Pharisees "deliberately muddied the waters" in verse 57, since Jesus responded directly to their question:

Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

Notice that Jesus did not say "before Abraham was, I was," as though he was claiming mere existence prior to Abraham. It certainly cannot merely mean that he is "the seed of the woman." He is that, but that has nothing to do with the question he was asked.

He very clearly responds with "I am," which is a claim to absolute existence, which God alone has. Again, he is contrasting the coming into being of and temporary existence of Abraham, with his own timeless existence.

Yes but this is what John states about this. The believers are patterned on the events of the birth of Christ:
John 1:12–13 (KJV): 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

No, that has nothing to do with it at all. That is talking about salvation and becoming sons and daughters of God through adoption, which could only be accomplished through Christ's death and resurrection.

Jesus was from above, not only in his character, he was "full of grace and truth", but also this is speaking in John 1:14, Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 about his conception, not a supposed incarnation. He is the seed of Eve and the true seed of Abraham, the father of the faithful.

The passages which state that Jesus is from above, in which he clearly states he is from above, it can only mean that he is literally from above. All of that completely supports his assertion of timeless existence. That is further supported by John 1:1-3, 10, 14, 18. That is precisely why John can say those things--because Jesus already alluded to them.

 

[RandyK]

I completely agree with Free here. If we're speaking of THE name of the Lord, it is Yahweh, or the Tetragrammaton. It is THE name of the one God, who has been expressing Himself as Father, Son, and Spirit. These are 3 distinct *persons* of the one true God. They express the one God, whose name is Yahweh.

So if we're talking about the trinity of personal expressions emanating out of the one true God, then we can speak about God having an assortment of different names. Jesus is the name of the Son. We may perhaps name the Spirit the "Holy Spirit" or "Spirit of God."

Regardless, if we're speaking about the one true God and THE name that belongs to Him, it would have to be Yahweh or the equivalent. To say He is Jesus would be relegating the transcendent God to only a single expression of Himself in the man Jesus. And that would not be correct.

Salvation certainly comes in the name of Jesus. But this is only because the name of Jesus identifies him as one with Yahweh, the one true God, who expresses Himself in Jesus, in the Holy Spirit, and in a myriad of others ways, through His Word.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Notice that Jesus did not say "before Abraham was, I was," as though he was claiming mere existence prior to Abraham. It certainly cannot merely mean that he is "the seed of the woman." He is that, but that has nothing to do with the question he was asked.

I never suggested this. I claim that Jesus continued the theme most recently stated in John 8:24,28 "I am he". I am very content with what I have stated on this aspect, including Post #528 and also Post #515 describing the build up of tension between Jesus and the Pharisees.

No, that has nothing to do with it at all. That is talking about salvation and becoming sons and daughters of God through adoption, which could only be accomplished through Christ's death and resurrection.

The language is initially based upon the unique birth of Jesus, and Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14 teach conception, not a supposed incarnation. Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. We become part of the family by adoption.
Galatians 4:4–7 (KJV): 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The passages which state that Jesus is from above, in which he clearly states he is from above, it can only mean that he is literally from above. All of that completely supports his assertion of timeless existence. That is further supported by John 1:1-3, 10, 14, 18. That is precisely why John can say those things--because Jesus already alluded to them.

Jesus is from above because he was Yahweh (He will be) fully manifested, he was full of grace and truth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

I have done no such thing. As I asked, show me where I have done so.

This statement.

And that is a Oneness teaching. I thought you said you weren't Oneness or do you no know what they teach?

Oneness teaches there is one member of the Godhead, not three.

That Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don’t teach that. You lying if you say I do.

I don’t teach oneness.

I believe there are three divine beings or person who together are one God.

the one true God, who expresses Himself in Jesus, in the Holy Spirit, and in a myriad of others ways, through His Word.

That is the very idea of Oneness.

One expressing Himself in three.

The Bible says these three are one.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

I’m not saying you are promoting oneness. I am saying that is the essence of the teaching.

I believe Jesus is the name of the LORD; the name of the Son.

The God who spoke out of the mouth of the prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

This doesn’t mean the Father and the Holy Spirit are not YHWH.

 

[Free]

This statement.

You said that I "dodge and and attack." That statement is neither a dodge nor an attack.

Oneness teaches there is one member of the Godhead, not three.

That Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don’t teach that. You lying if you say I do.

I don’t teach oneness.

I believe there are three divine beings or person who together are one God.

Yes, that is what you say, but as I have continually pointed out, your claim--"Jesus is the Name of the LORD; YHWH the LORD God"--is one of Oneness theology, not one of Trinitarianism. I've given the reasons why and you have yet to address them; you just continue to dodge.

This isn't difficult. I have not attacked you or labelled you, nor have I dodged anything. I'm simply presenting the biblical problems with your claim, nothing more, which you seem to take issue with.

 

[for_his_glory]

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an Ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water (word) and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water (word), and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8


Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

I never suggested this.

But you did, and you do so again in this post.

In the post I was addressing, you stated: "But Jesus claims that even though he was the promised seed of Abraham, he was also before Abraham. He was the seed promised concerning the seed of Eve:"

I claim that Jesus continued the theme most recently stated in John 8:24,28 "I am he".

You have claimed that as well, but I have adequately shown that that is not the case. He is answering a different question, the one found in verse 57.

I am very content with what I have stated on this aspect, including Post #528 and also Post #515 describing the build up of tension between Jesus and the Pharisees.

Even though it has Jesus speaking nonsense and doesn't answer the question he was asked in verse 57?

The language is initially based upon the unique birth of Jesus, and Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14 teach conception, not a supposed incarnation. Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

This is to literally completely ignore all that John says in John 1:1-18.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)
...
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Where John 1:1-2 speak of the Word having existed before the beginning began, in an eternal, interpersonal relationship with God, verse 14 speaks of the coming of the Word into time. John is contrasting the two modes of being of the Son.

There is simply no way to read this as it is, to read what it plainly states, and come away understanding that it's speaking of Jesus being "the Son of God by birth." The entire point of John's prologue, is that Jesus is both truly God in nature and truly man in nature.

Jesus is from above because he was Yahweh (He will be) fully manifested, he was full of grace and truth.

What do you mean by "He will be"? Jesus is from above because he is the person of the Word, the eternal Son, who entered into time to take on the additional nature of a human.

 

[JLB]

You said that I "dodge and and attack." That statement is neither a dodge nor an attack.

Yes it is.

Instead of answering my question…

What is the Name of the LORD (YHWH) that we call on to be saved, you refuse to answer and deflect to some other post where you never answer.

Stating the Name of the LORD we call on to be saved is an answer.

Then you slander me by saying that calling Jesus LORD is oneness teaching.


So either answer my question that I have asked over and over and over, or don’t bother labeling me or what I teach falsely.

 

[Free]

Yes it is.

No, it isn't.

Instead of answering my question…

What is the Name of the LORD (YHWH) that we call on to be saved, you refuse to answer and deflect to some other post where you never answer.

Stating the Name of the LORD we call on to be saved is an answer.

Again, I've answered it more than once. If you can't see it or you're not going to read my posts, I can't help you. I could repeat what I said here, but you'll likely ignore that too.

Then you slander me by saying that calling Jesus LORD is oneness teaching.

No, that is not what I said. Please stop misrepresenting me. You seem to be getting upset based on not understanding what I'm saying. What I have very clearly stated is: 'your claim--"Jesus is the Name of the LORD; YHWH the LORD God"--is one of Oneness theology.'

"Calling Jesus LORD" is something different.

So either answer my question that I have asked over and over and over, or don’t bother labeling me or what I teach falsely.

Once again, I've answered it more than once and I haven't labelled you with anything.

 

[RandyK]

This statement.


Oneness teaches there is one member of the Godhead, not three.

That Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don’t teach that. You lying if you say I do.

I don’t teach oneness.

I believe there are three divine beings or person who together are one God.





That is the very idea of Oneness.

No, brother, I'm *not* Oneness, if you're referring to the Proper Noun, and not the adjective. The Oneneses movement began with Sabellius, I believe, and is often called "Modalism."

Initially, the Father was thought to be the preeminent Person, assuming the form of the Son and the Spirit as He willed. Though the Father can be viewed as preliminary to the revelation of Jesus, it cannot be said that the Son did not equally exist from eternity. The same for the Spirit.

In our time we have those who feel the Son is the preeminent Person in the Godhead. He assumes, in their belief, the form of the Father and the Spirit as he wills. His name is Jesus. God's name is Jesus.

I agree with Free. Jesus is not "God's name." God's name is "Yahweh."

However, we call on both God's name, "Yahweh," and the Son's name, "Jesus," in order to be saved. The emphasis upon calling on Jesus is due to God using him as the legal fix to enable our Salvation.

This doesn't mean God isn't the source of our Salvation--He just used Jesus to correct the problem by dying for us and by forgiving us, along with giving his Spirit to us as a downpayment on our Salvation.

 

[JLB]

Jesus is the Name of the LORD; YHWH the LORD God"--is one of Oneness theology.

What is the name of the LORD we call on to be saved, according to scripture?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

The name of the LORD I called on to be saved is Jesus.

 

[JLB]

No, brother, I'm *not* Oneness,

I know that. I stated that in my post.

I believe Jesus is the name of the LORD we call on to be saved.

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:13

Paul is quoting Joel -

The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls. Joel 2:31-32

Do you understand that the Day of the LORD is also called the Day of Christ?

 

[JLB]

Jesus is the Name of the LORD; YHWH the LORD God"--is one of Oneness theology,

False.

Oneness teaches that there is one member of the Godhead; Jesus.

That Jesus manifests as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


The scriptures teaches three. These three are one.

Calling Jesus LORD" is something different.

LORD is YHWH.

 

[JLB]

I agree with Free. Jesus is not "God's name." God's name is "Yahweh."

Brother, Yahweh is a name that adds vowels to YHWH.


I believe Jesus is God; YHWH The LORD God.

I believe the Father is God; YHWH The LORD God.

I believe the Holy Spirit is God; YHWH The LORD God.

I believe collectively these three are God; YHWH the LORD God.

These three individual divine Beings (Persons) are collectively God;
YHWH the LORD God

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26


What do you believe?

Which one of the statements do you disagree with?