The Trinity

[Paidion]

The Word of God says, that, Christ is God...If you don't believe His Word, then we have nothing to agree upon.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and jusctice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform it." Isa 9:6,7.

"The everlasting Father", eh? That's what your late Masoretic text says, but the Septuagint, translated from Hebrew to Greek in the third century B.C. reads quite differently.

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel, for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no boundary: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from now and for lasting times . The zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.

 

[mutzrein]

Paidon - Did you ever read what the Lord revealed to me regarding the Word? If not I will post it for you and would appreciate your perspective on it.

 

[Imagican]

How about Christ's offering that the Word was GIVEN Him of The Father?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dadof10]

I believe that ANYTHING worshiped AS God OTHER THAN God IS a 'false god'. Therefore, IF Christ is NOT God HImself, the worship of Christ AS God is to worship a 'false god'.

I haven't read this entire thread, so this may have already been covered. I submit the most overwhelming verses in favor of Jesus' divinity are John 20:28-29.

"Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" [mou kyrios kai mou THEOS]29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

Here we have an Apostle directly affirming that Jesus is GOD, and Jesus REAFFIRMING IT by saying "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe".

I don't know how anyone can read this and come to any other conclusion except that Thomas has called Jesus "God" and Jesus agrees with him.

 

[mutzrein]

How about Christ's offering that the Word was GIVEN Him of The Father?

Blessings,

MEC

Absolutely right. I'm not sure whether it's the scripture that you are thinking of MEC, but Jesus actually said that the words He spoke WERE NOT his own BUT came from the one who sent Him.

So, if the words of Jesus 'I and my Father are one', are supposed to support the notion that Jesus is God, then clearly something is wrong.

Bless you

 

[francisdesales]

How about Christ's offering that the Word was GIVEN Him of The Father?

Absolutely right. I'm not sure whether it's the scripture that you are thinking of MEC, but Jesus actually said that the words He spoke WERE NOT his own BUT came from the one who sent Him.

So, if the words of Jesus 'I and my Father are one', are supposed to support the notion that Jesus is God, then clearly something is wrong.

The only thing wrong is your understandings of the concept of the Father "SPEAKING" the Son eternally.

Consider this. If you were able to have a perfect concept of yourself in your mind - and this concept, you could bring to actual life, wouldn't that "SON" be able to say that "the Word given to me is from my Father (you)"? And since this "Word" was begotten by you in your own being, this Word now has your nature, your abilities and attributes.

Thus, it is perfectly understandable that Jesus would say "the words that I have are from the Father", or "I and the Father are one", or "I can do nothing without the Father", or "the Father knows me as I know the Father", or "All power from above has been given to me", etc...

Who ELSE knows God but God Himself? How can Jesus say He knows the Father - unless He is intimately united with Him in intellect and will. Who knows us like ourselves, and who knows God like Himself?

With a bit of pondering on Sacred Scriptures, it is quite obvious that Jesus is God.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Imagician wrote

"I believe that ANYTHING worshiped AS God OTHER THAN God IS a 'false god'. Therefore, IF Christ is NOT God HImself, the worship of Christ AS God is to worship a 'false god'."

Who is this uncircumsied of heart magician who continually speaks blasphemies against the Son of the Most High calling Him a false god?

God the Father of Love who you claim is your God does not believe His only born Son who was born from Him and is the "express image[Character/exact reproduction in every respect] of HIs person"does not believe that His Son is a false god.

But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God."is forever and ever,and the scepter of your kingdomis a righteous scepter.

God the father who you say is your God recognizes the complete deity and equality of His only born Son with Himself. Although he does not worship His Son. He does not call Him My God like the Son worships His true Father and His true God who gave birth to Him in eternity as we see in the next verse.
God the Father is not a trinitarian.

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.That is why God, your God,[The God of You]anointed you rather than your companions with the oil of gladness.†Hebrews 1:9

It is alright to be against the trinity but it is not alright to deny God's only born Son worship. God the Father told the angels in heaven to worship the Son of the Most High. But instead of following the example of God's holy angels you instead deny The Son of God worship and you are following the example of Satan and his demons.

It's alright not to worship the manmade invention the trinity. So don't worship Jesus as some 3inone God. God the Father alone is the King of the Universe. 1st Timothy 6:15,16. But Jesus Christ is His only true and literal Son and the Prince of the Universe so He is worthy of worship.

When you worship Jesus why not follow Joshua's example.
Notice that when Joshua worshipped Jesus, Jesus didn't say that "I am the 2nd person of some made up trinity" He said I am the supreme general of my Yahweh my Father's Armies, His Prince, His true Son so worship me and take off your shoes the place where you stand is holy. That was me paraphrasisng. I'll quote those verses now.

It happened, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man stood in front of him with his sword drawn in his hand. Joshua went to him, and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?" He said, "No; but I have come now as commander of Yahweh's army." Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshipped, and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?" The prince of Yahweh's army said to Joshua, "Take your shoes off of your feet; for the place on which you stand is holy." Joshua did so.
Joshua 5:13-15

Dear MEC. God's only born Son is knocking on your heart everyday. Today is the day of salvation harden not your heart. Please stop denying the Christ by denying the messianic prophesies that prove that Christ is equal to His God. His only born Son is the only being in the universe who is equal to God in nature. The fact that Jesus said "my father is greater than I" does not mean that they He is not the only being in the niverse who is in fact equal in nature to God.

Mec you and me are human so we are equal in nature.We are two seperate humans not a two in one human. I wasn't saying that God is a two in one God. Anyways you and me are equal in nature but you are greater than me in age. So is the Father greater in age than His Son for God is the Ancient of Days but that doesn't prove that they are still not completely equal in nature. You are greater in me in knowlege just as the Father was greater in knowlege than His Son while His Son was on earth after giving up all His God powers but that still does not prove that they are not equal. For God is Love. and Christ is Love. Paul said that we can't ever know the heights and depts and breath of the love of Christ. I'm not sure where but I'll find the reference some other time.
God loved us because he gave His only born Son. Christ loves us because He died completerly bothy body and soul for us.He didn't have a spirit walking around and moving around after he was dead. Those two beings are equal in love to eachother.

Let me close by saying Paul tells us in Phlipians that one day everyone in the universe[which includes the devil and his angels and his followrs all the people who denyed Christ worship in their lifetimes] Every one will worship Christ one day. the Christians will worship Christ with him. The Sinners will worship Christ on their way to the lake of fire where God will anhilate them because God is loving and merciful, My prayer is for you to worship Christ in this lifetime instead of being one of those worshipping Christ on the way to their eternal destruction where it will be to late then.

If you read my response, what I stated is that IF there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, then making ANY OTHER would BE to 'create a false god'.

I worship God AS God and I worship Christ AS The Son of God.

Now, let's say that I handed you a quarter and TOLD you it was GOD. In essence, I simply introduced a 'false god'. Or, if I introduced you to a MAN and TOLD you it was God, there is NO DIFFERENCE, THAT god would be a 'false god'.

Now IF Christ is NOT GOD and you worship Him AS God, then, by the words of God, Christ AND the apostles, you have chosen to 'create a god' of YOUR OWN MAKING.

I have NOT stated that Christ IS a 'false god'. I have merely pointed out that IF there is ONLY One True God, then ANYTHING that we CHOOSE to worship AS God other than HIM is a 'false god'.

Christ is the Son of God. The ONLY begotten. These attributes we have been GIVEN in Word.

HOW MANY 'false gods' do you reacon exist?

The list is ENDLESS.

What separates TRUTH from fiction? The Word plainly states that there would come a TIME when religions would DENY The Son. When we begin to BELIEVE that Christ is 'something different' than what we were instructed, all that can result is a 'worship' of NAME instead of TRUTH. For I can call that same quarter Christ just as easily as god. But that does NOT MAKE the quarter EITHER. Only in words. But in TRUTH, there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, and ONLY ONE 'begotten of God': Jesus Christ.

I hope that this offers a more detailed understanding of my previous post.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dadof10]

Christ is the Son of God. The ONLY begotten. These attributes we have been GIVEN in Word.

Right, the only BEGOTTEN. If dogs beget dogs, zebras beget zebras and man begets man, what does God beget?

 

[francisdesales]

What separates TRUTH from fiction? The Word plainly states that there would come a TIME when religions would DENY The Son. When we begin to BELIEVE that Christ is 'something different' than what we were instructed, all that can result is a 'worship' of NAME instead of TRUTH.

So why aren't you on board with Christianity? Why do yoiu not recognize that the Son is God? Do you not know the Son?

For I can call that same quarter Christ just as easily as god. But that does NOT MAKE the quarter EITHER. Only in words. But in TRUTH, there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, and ONLY ONE 'begotten of God': Jesus Christ.

There is only one God, but Jesus and the Father are one...

 

[mutzrein]

Christ is the Son of God. The ONLY begotten. These attributes we have been GIVEN in Word.

Right, the only BEGOTTEN. If dogs beget dogs, zebras beget zebras and man begets man, what does God beget?

Dog is of the canine species. Dog begets another of the same species.
Man is of the human species. Man begets another of the same species.
God is not a species. He is divine and eternal. He has begotten divinity and the eternal Christ. He does NOT beget God because there is only ONE God.

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

I have already OFFERED why I am NOT 'on board'. Let me offer it again:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These words of Christ are found in Matthew 7:

If you will read them and are able to grasp their significance, you will find that there will be MANY that DO things in the NAME of Chirst, but He doesn't even KNOW THEM. This is a pure indication that they don't KNOW Him EITHER. They are simply following a NAME, NOT IN SPIRIT.

I am NOT here to ACCUSE anyone or JUDGE anyone. I am simply here to offer that we are to accept Christ on HIS terms and NOT OUR OWN. I have found NO 'trinity' to be offered in The Word. Yes, I could simply ACCEPT as you would suggest. But I am unable to accept without revelation. And the words of men are RARELY revelation. Especially when they do NOT conform to that which has been offered directly from Christ.

I have also pointed out OVER AND OVER again that Paul offered ESSPRESSED separation between Christ and God. Offering openly that God is NOT ONLY OUR GOD, but THE God of Christ as well. Now, how one can BE God and HAVE The SAME GOD is contradictory to the teaching of 'trinity'.

So, I think I'll have to pass on 'being like everybody else' for the sake of what THEY believe. Read the words above again. See if they do NOT offer a bit of INSIGHT into the reality of THIS WORLD. These words appear to be addressed PRECISELY to this issue and those of TODAY. If you are ABLE to bear them.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

I have already OFFERED why I am NOT 'on board'. Let me offer it again:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This is not refering to proper doctrines, since God commanded the Apostles to spread the Gospel throughout all the world. The Gospel is available to those who are OPEN to it, not closed to it and prefer their own "gospel".

The "way" refers to our walk. It is not easy to die to self and turn your back on the things of the world.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

So since you wear wool clothes, you are a false prophet???

Seriously, you are the false prophet here, because your teachings are not in line with the Apostolic community's teachings.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

The fruits of the Church are quite extraordinary, spreading the Gosple throughout the world for the last 2000 years. What have you done, besides spread false gospels and pat yourself on the back on how holy you think you are?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven...And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These words of Christ are found in Matthew 7:

Why did you stop? Keep reading about the ROCK that Christ built upon, while you build upon sand...

If you will read them and are able to grasp their significance, you will find that there will be MANY that DO things in the NAME of Chirst, but He doesn't even KNOW THEM. This is a pure indication that they don't KNOW Him EITHER. They are simply following a NAME, NOT IN SPIRIT.

Not a single thing you have "provided" is of any sort of specific value. The verses could be applied with hatred and accusation at any individual who thinks they are above other people. They prove nothing at all.

I am NOT here to ACCUSE anyone or JUDGE anyone.

Baloney. That is ALL you do...

I am simply here to offer that we are to accept Christ on HIS terms and NOT OUR OWN.

So what is your problem? You are NOT accepting Christ on His terms, but your terms.

I have found NO 'trinity' to be offered in The Word.

That is because you are in denial and do not understand the most profound implications of Scriptures. This is not surprising, since everyone has not been given the ability to interpret Scriptures through the Spirit. Numerous points have been given, and you have really not disproven a single thing yet...

Yes, I could simply ACCEPT as you would suggest. But I am unable to accept without revelation.

The Bible is full of revelations that you choose not to heed. Like John 1:1. Clearly, the Word is God. But you won't have it.

And the words of men are RARELY revelation.

Which is why people ignore your words except to dispute them.

I have also pointed out OVER AND OVER again that Paul offered ESSPRESSED separation between Christ and God.

No He doesn't. Using the words "God and Jesus" do not signify separation. They merely are two different names for the same Person. God begot the Son, but everything the Father has was given to the Son. That is the Love of the Trinity. God IS love and cannot BUT give all that He has to His beloved Son.

Offering openly that God is NOT ONLY OUR GOD, but THE God of Christ as well. Now, how one can BE God and HAVE The SAME GOD is contradictory to the teaching of 'trinity'.

You simply do not understand the concept of a Person having two natures... I can speak about Jesus as being God AND man.

So, I think I'll have to pass on 'being like everybody else' for the sake of what THEY believe. Read the words above again. See if they do NOT offer a bit of INSIGHT into the reality of THIS WORLD. These words appear to be addressed PRECISELY to this issue and those of TODAY. If you are ABLE to bear them.

Nope. They do not offer any insight into any reality, except for your stubborness...

 

[dadof10]

Dog is of the canine species. Dog begets another of the same species.
Man is of the human species. Man begets another of the same species.
God is not a species. He is divine and eternal.

He is not a "species", but He is a "Being". Beings can only "beget" other beings of the same substance and kind. That's why the sacred author used the word "beget" instead of "create", he is conveying that Jesus and the Father are the same. Why else would he use that specific word?

He has begotten divinity and the eternal Christ. He does NOT beget God because there is only ONE God.

Yes, there is only one God Who is three Divine Persons. The word "begotten" in Hebrews doesn't in and of itself "prove" the doctrine of the Trinity, like John 20:28-29 does (well, two of the Persons anyway). It does, however give one more clue as to Who, exactly, Jesus Is.

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

i deny what you have accused. I do NOT 'judge others'. I may WELL judge what you SAY, but I do NOT judge them even when I disagree with them. But, if the shoe fits...................

Now, if you have some offering IN CONTEXT concerning what I posted, by all means, let's hear it. But you simply making accusations that I HAVE IT WRONG proves NOTHING except your desire to disagree with ANYTHING that I have to offer.

You offer that the church has 'spread the Word' for the past 2000 years. I would contend that this is PARTIALLY TRUE. For MANY that they ENSLAVED were not even ABLE to understand the LANGUAGE of those that preached. But that did NOT stop the 'church' to which you refer from USING and ABUSING them for the sake of 'filthy lucre'.

Fran, HOW MANY of those that YOU say were 'brought the Word' were MURDERED by the SAME people that YOU contend 'brought them the Word'? From my studies, it is APPARENT that many were given a 'simple choice': convert or DIE through 'slave labor or worse'. And MANY THAT DID convert were 'worked to death or WORSE' as well.

So PLEASE, don't try and tell me what 'wonderous things' the church to which you refer has DONE in the 'name of Christ'. For we can CLEARLY see by the study of history EXACTLY how much LOVE was offered those to WHOM they 'brought the Word.

And further more, The Word is THE TRUTH. Not simply twisted and limited amounts of it, but AS IT WAS OFFERED. And, once again, the church to which you refer didn't even allow ACCESS to the Word to it's OWN PEOPLE, much LESS those of 'other races' to whom YOU claim The Word was delivered to. 'Bits and pieces' as THEY saw FIT were ALL that was delivered.

No, Fran, NOT The Word, but WORDS of those that would USE them for their OWN benefit. Not THE TRUTH but 'the truth' as those that 'created it' would have others BELIEVE.

So, continue with your accusations against me. I refuse to get into the 'name calling' that you seem so found of. I have NO animosity in my heart towards YOU or any other. But I CERTAINLY AM able to recognize the TRUTH without personal feelings having ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

What is MORE important than what I have to SAY is that it is a SIMPLE thing to prove or disprove ALMOST everything that I have SAID. I simply 'plant seeds' and let it go from there. You would offer that I have some 'ulterior motive'. I ask for NOTHING. I EXPECT NOTHING. And it has taken me over FORTY YEARS to come to the understanding that I have presently.

I offer VERY LITTLE of 'my own' understanding. For, when I was LEANING on my own understanding, I had NO USE for The TRUTH. And it seems that MANY are STILL struggling to 'let go' of 'their OWN truth. For it seems to be your attitude that; so long as one does not come to the faith that YOU HAVE, then NOTHING that they are able to understand IS Truth. There is SO MUCH MORE to the TRUTH than THAT, my brother.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

Dog is of the canine species. Dog begets another of the same species.
Man is of the human species. Man begets another of the same species.
God is not a species. He is divine and eternal.

He is not a "species", but He is a "Being". Beings can only "beget" other beings of the same substance and kind. That's why the sacred author used the word "beget" instead of "create", he is conveying that Jesus and the Father are the same. Why else would he use that specific word?

He has begotten divinity and the eternal Christ. He does NOT beget God because there is only ONE God.

Yes, there is only one God Who is three Divine Persons. The word "begotten" in Hebrews doesn't in and of itself "prove" the doctrine of the Trinity, like John 20:28-29 does (well, two of the Persons anyway). It does, however give one more clue as to Who, exactly, Jesus Is.

Using the word 'being' doesn't change anything does it. The 'substance' is not God. The substance is the nature of God - which is divinity. So God doesn't beget God. He begets a son who is Christ - and who is divine since he is begotten of the Father. And BTW I have in no way said that Jesus was 'created'.

 

[epistemaniac]

MEC, at least we can agree on this, one of us is wrong... God cannot be both triune and not triune... if the unitarian montheists, be they Arians, modalists, of whatever stripe... are right about God then the Trinitarians are wrong and we are serving a false god. Of course, I believe it is the case that those who deny the Trinity are the ones following a false god. But both views cannot be right.

blessings,
ken

 

[dadof10]

Using the word 'being' doesn't change anything does it. The 'substance' is not God. The substance is the nature of God - which is divinity.

Huh? The substance is the NATURE of God? Could you elaborate? If there is only one God, how can the "substance" be anything but God?

So God doesn't beget God. He begets a son who is Christ - and who is divine since he is begotten of the Father. And BTW I have in no way said that Jesus was 'created'.

So, Jesus is divine, uncreated, the ONLY being begotten by God and eternal, yet NOT God?

As I said before, the word "begotten" in and of itself does not prove the Son is God. It is just one of many proofs that are found in the NT, John 20:28-29 being the most obvoius and irrefutable.

If all the proofs mentioned on this thread are taken together, the fact that Jesus is God cannot be logically refuted.

 

[francisdesales]

Now, if you have some offering IN CONTEXT concerning what I posted, by all means, let's hear it. But you simply making accusations that I HAVE IT WRONG proves NOTHING except your desire to disagree with ANYTHING that I have to offer.

I have over and over again. On numerous occasions, I have provided Scriptures, snips from the earliest Christians, and explanations of our point of view. Forgive me if you have not read my posts...

You offer that the church has 'spread the Word' for the past 2000 years. I would contend that this is PARTIALLY TRUE. For MANY that they ENSLAVED were not even ABLE to understand the LANGUAGE of those that preached.

More nonsense... We are to believe that priests and nuns held various peoples with military means at their disposal at bay and enslaved them??? Whatever. Thousands of Christian martyrs spreading the Word disprove this. And your fruits? These "offerings" merely pull people AWAY from the Truth. WHY do you think I constant expose you to your lies? You think I have nothing better to do than argue with you??? No, I care about the Truth being preached. You care about tearing the Truth down to replace is with your very limited understanding of Sacred Scriptures and Apostolic Teachings.

Fran, HOW MANY of those that YOU say were 'brought the Word' were MURDERED by the SAME people that YOU contend 'brought them the Word'? From my studies, it is APPARENT that many were given a 'simple choice': convert or DIE through 'slave labor or worse'. And MANY THAT DID convert were 'worked to death or WORSE' as well.

I think you are confusing Islam with Christianity...

So PLEASE, don't try and tell me what 'wonderous things' the church to which you refer has DONE in the 'name of Christ'. For we can CLEARLY see by the study of history EXACTLY how much LOVE was offered those to WHOM they 'brought the Word.

By your fruits, you are judged. The only fruit you present is to condemn and judge other organizations, both Catholic and Protestant... Sour grapes is your fruit...

And further more, The Word is THE TRUTH. Not simply twisted and limited amounts of it, but AS IT WAS OFFERED.

Try to remember that, rather than giving us YOUR spin on the Word. We know how the Word was offered and understood by reading the Church Fathers. You make haphazard attempts to understand a book where you cannot even understand the original language. Nor are you hardly aware of the historical context that it was written within. Please. Spare me the lectures...

My understanding of the Word is supported by those who came before me. I don't reinvent the wheel in my image, like you do. That your are so proud and arrogant in your 'offerings' further proves you are not preaching truth.

And, once again, the church to which you refer didn't even allow ACCESS to the Word to it's OWN PEOPLE, much LESS those of 'other races' to whom YOU claim The Word was delivered to. 'Bits and pieces' as THEY saw FIT were ALL that was delivered.

More foolish nonsense based on reading "Jack Chick" tracts, no doubt...

So, continue with your accusations against me. I refuse to get into the 'name calling' that you seem so found of. I have NO animosity in my heart towards YOU or any other. But I CERTAINLY AM able to recognize the TRUTH without personal feelings having ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

I am not calling you names. Just pointing out that your offerings are fit for the bottom of the bird cage... Perhaps you are a very nice, likeable guy in the real world. Who knows. I am just saying that you have some serious fundamental problems with your approach to Scriptures, and perhaps it might make a shipwreck of other people's faith.

I offer VERY LITTLE of 'my own' understanding.

[/quote]

Stop babbling. You aren't offering TRUTH. Just your version of it, which is wrong, because the Truth has already been given.

 

[Imagican]

MEC, at least we can agree on this, one of us is wrong... God cannot be both triune and not triune... if the unitarian montheists, be they Arians, modalists, of whatever stripe... are right about God then the Trinitarians are wrong and we are serving a false god. Of course, I believe it is the case that those who deny the Trinity are the ones following a false god. But both views cannot be right.

blessings,
ken

All you need do in order to SHOW that which YOU follow to BE truth is offer SCRIPTURE that states that God is TRIUNE in nature. That His Son is JUST one PART of His 'triune nature'. One instance where an apostle, Christ or GOD Himself mentions that He is "A Trinity'.

But I can CLEARLY show that this is NOT POSSIBLE. For 'trinity' was designed and instituted INTO Christianity by MEN and even THESE, hundreds of years AFTER the DEATH of Christ.

We were WARNED that there would come those that would teach denial of The Son. If CHANGING Christ INTO God Himself is NOT denial of The Son, then I don't know how I could point this out in a more significant WAY.

For to BELIEVE that Christ is GOD HIMSELF, utterly removes the SIGNIFICANCE of Him BEING The Son. For God did NOT 'die on a cross', but HIS SON; Jesus Christ. This is PLAINLY offered througout the Gospels and epistles. Christ was NOT SPEAKING to HIMSELF throughout the Gospels when speaking with God.

And we KNOW that there is but ONE TRUE GOD. Regardless of the mystical method of wisdom used in an ATTEMPT to 'create ONE God out of THREE', this has simply NEVER been offered from the BEGINNING of our relationship with God until the PRESENT. The TRUTH is that THREE makes THREE in ANY sense of the use of NUMBERS. But, of course, one COULD come up with some 'mystical' formulation that CHANGES reality into 'something else'.

Christ states that He and God are One. But we also have the offering that WE and Christ CAN be as one as well. And a man and his wife are ABLE to be ONE. This does NOT make 'man and Christ a DUALITY. Or, God, Christ, the Holy Spirit and MAN a 'quadrality'. You could certainly MAKE SOMETHING LIKE THIS UP, but it certainly would have NO BEARING on the TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

You continually ATTEMPT to 'make it SOUND' like I have 'created something'. When in TRUTH, there have ALWAYS been 'some' with views EXACTLY like mine. The problem is that the MAJORITY DID RULE. They had the POWER in the PAST to stiffle such offerings as mine. I have 're-invented' NOTHING. Just pointed out that INSTEAD of 'follwing that created by MEN' we SHOULD get BACK to the BASICS and follow God through Christ.

Your attempts to say that you follow THE church Fathers is ONLY from YOUR perspective. For what YOU would consider 'church Fathers' are NO Fathers of MINE. It is PLAINLY and PAINFULLY obvious that many of your 'so called Fathers' were considered to BE HERETICS by the very faith that you defend. So, please 'spare me' the rhetoric.

You have NEVER offered ANYTHING that I would consider PROOF of what you defend. You point out that those that came AFTER Christ and His apostles SAW a 'triune god' that was NEVER offered up by either Christ OR His apostles. The very NATURE of your claim screams MAN and HIS WISDOM rather than simple acceptance of what has been offered up in Word.

The FACT that MANY have chosen to follow such teachings in NO WAY is ANY indication of PROOF. For we can clearly look back at history and SEE how such beliefs were MOSTLY forced upon the populace.

Question:

Do you DENY that the church to which you refer was INSTRUMENTAL in the enslavement of those to whom they 'brought the Word to' in South America? That many of these were NEVER able to understand the languages of those who preached The Word. And therefore, NEVER benefited from this 'spreading of the Word'? That the people that dominated them, INCLUDING the church, were the ONE'S that truly benefited through this 'spreading of the Word'?

I 'twist' NOTHING. i simply offer what is ABLE to be offered as CLEARLY as I can. And that I disagree with what you 'believe in' has NO bearing on how I personally FEEL about YOU.

i come here NOT to simply 'debate', (though I don't really have difficulty in this), but to offer what has been revealed to me, (along with secular information that has been obtained, at times, through pretty riggorous study).

So, Fran, NOTHING personal. And NOTHING personal against those of the past that were misled into unnatural beliefs in what they 'thought' was 'the truth'. I am NOT the judge of YOU or anyone else so far as 'Salvation' is concerned. If it were up to me, ALL would come to the truth and be 'saved'. It's NOT. Nor is it UP TO ME to judge who IS and WHO isn't. What I choose to discuss is TRUTH regardless of how that effects ANYONE.

Blessings,

MEC