The Trinity

[dalton]

I am confused. From what I understand the word trinity is not mentioned in the bible....however the bible does describe God the father God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. So why do some Christians have a problem with using the word Trinity and others do not?
This is a result of a conversation I had with my father. In our church we never used the word trinity but did speak of God the father, Son and Holy Ghost as three but also one.
Just asking for a little bit of insight and opinions.

 

[Tina]

.

I think some people have a phobia for that " T " word because it originated from some Catholic pagan tradition. Or maybe some people just wanna argue for the sake of arguing. There are many other words that aren't found in the bible. For example, Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Evangelical, Charismatic, etc .........
What man-made religious name do you go by ??

Belief or disbelief in the word "Trinity" per se is not important. What's important is having a right biblical undersanding of Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to Scriptures.



:D

 

[seekandlisten]

I am confused. From what I understand the word trinity is not mentioned in the bible....however the bible does describe God the father God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

Just an observation, just like the word 'trinity' is not contained in the Bible, the terms 'God the Son' and 'God the Holy Ghost' are also not contained in the pages of the Bible.

cheers

 

[savedbygrace57]

Tina:

Belief or disbelief in the word "Trinity" per se is not important. What's important is having a right biblical undersanding of Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to Scriptures.

Correct, I often use the Word God Head to denote the Trinity, simply because the Word is used in scripture. But i have found that, even at that, those whom God has not convinced of His Triunity, they will not accept anything.

The same thing with the Deity of Christ, many scriptures point to Jesus in His Divinity being God, but no matter what scriptures you provide, those not believing in His Deity will not believe.

 

[xAmbientxCatalystx]

Whereas you can't find the term "Trinity" in the bible; the conceptual basis for it is very much found:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Strangelove]

1 in 3.....3 in 1....meh! horses for courses.

The only problems arise when people start denying the devine nature of Jesus Christ. That really irks me.


Luckily we dont have too many like that on these forums.


Doc.

 

[seekandlisten]

Whereas you can't find the term "Trinity" in the bible; the conceptual basis for it is very much found:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It would be pretty shaky ground to use an addition in later manuscripts, clearly added to support their new doctrine, as the basis for 'God' being a trinity. May I suggest looking at Isaac Newton's Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture.

cheers

 

[xAmbientxCatalystx]

It would be pretty shakey ground IF the Johannine Comma(1 John 5:7) was in fact a later addition. I think it would do some good for people to really study the whole point that this was an addition.

The people who originated this claim about the Johannine Comma being an addition were of the modern translation movement. Most all of them attribute this addition to Erasmus who was one of the responsible parties for putting together the KJV.

So this would mean the Johannine Comma would have popped up somewhere around 1590-1610AD.

Problem with this?

Well in [SIZE=-1]200AD[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Tertullian quoted the verse in his "Apology Against Praxeas".

Also in 250AD [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On the Lapsed, On the Novatians.

If you were to look in a Waldensian or Vaudois Bible, you'd also see the Johannine Comma there as well. The interesting thing here is, that this would date us all the way back to 157AD.

So if we maintain the most popular belief concerning Erasmus or any KJV affiliate adding the Johannine Comma, we have to either erase history, or pretty much find a way to make time travel possible as Erasmus would have had to travel back in time 1400 or so years and put the Johannine Comma in history.

Do some studying on the Vaudois vs the Roman Catholic Church. You'll find somewhere in the reading that the Vaudois faught for some 1400 or so years to preserve the bible they had, received from Antioch of Syria in 120AD. They died for their bibles, trying to keep it in tact. However modern days, Roman Catholic Church has succeeded in their mission.

I'm not attempting to show prejudice, just facts. If anyone here is Catholic and offended by this, I'm sorry, I'm simply stating clear history. Research it for yourself if you don't want to take my word for it

Anyways, for this reason and many others, I detest new age translations, and so the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) is more than enough proof of the "Trinity" for me.

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Dr. S. Franklin Rogers, the co creator of the NASV for instance has gone on to say: [/SIZE]"I must, under God, renounce every attachment to the New American Standard Version". But thats another topic really, something else however it's worth researching. God bless you. [SIZE=-1]

Edit:

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]I forgot to address the Isaac Newton thing. [/SIZE]He argued<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference"> </sup>that the Johannine Comma was first taken into a Greek text in 1515 by Cardinal Ximenes on the strength of a late Greek manuscript corrected from the Latin. Finally, Newton considered the sense and context of the verse, concluding that removing the interpolation makes "the sense plain and natural, and the argument full and strong; but if you insert the testimony of 'the Three in Heaven' you interrupt and spoil it."<sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_His..._Notable_Corruptions_of_Scripture#cite_note-5http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_His..._Notable_Corruptions_of_Scripture#cite_note-5</sup>

So Newton would have as well had to explain how Cardinal Ximenes traveled back to 120 or so AD to corrupt the Vaudois Bible.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

 

[Jus10]

In the sense of God being a trinity, I consider the word an adjective rather a noun. It isn't a manmade word, it actually has the meaning behind it "group of three."

But the word is meant for describing God's diety as Father, Son, and Spirit. God is three in one.

It's like saying my hair is brown. It doesn't change the fact that it's hair, but it IS brown like saying God IS a trinity.

Regardless of the word beng a noun, it's used to describe His three components.

 

[Vic C.]

Bravo xAmbientxCatalystx !

You did your homework for sure. You stumbled across some of the same info I had found when I did this study years ago.

People need to understand why these "alleged additions" are in the Textus Receptus.

 

[Dusty]

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].

To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].


Here are three passages in Scripture, one on the lips of Jesus, and the other two from leading apostles, each bringing together the three Persons of the Godhead in an unmistakable way. But these are only a sampling of other similar passages.

Among others are the following: Romans 14:17-18; 15:16;
1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6.

Note how God (Father), Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit are brought together as instruments of our salvation.

 

[Dusty]

It is written, FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN,

THE FATHER,
THE WORD,
AND THE HOLY GHOST:
AND THESE THREE ARE ONE-1 Jn 5:7. There are three separate Persons of the Trinity. These three are illustrated here.

1. God, the Father.

2. God, the Son, which is Jesus.

THE WORD is Jesus. It is written, HIS NAME (Jesus) IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD-Rev 19:13

. Also it is written, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD (Jesus), AND THE WORD (Jesus) WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD (Jesus) WAS GOD. Note, Jesus is the Word and He is God. AND THE WORD (Jesus) WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US-Jn 1:1,14.

3. God, the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.

This is further illustrated, as it is written, GO YE THEREFORE, AND TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF (1) THE FATHER, AND OF (2) THE SON, AND OF (3) THE HOLY GHOST: Once again, we have the Trinity. It did not say FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST as of one, but "AND OF" as of three separate Persons-ref Mt 28:19.
THE (1) SPIRIT OF THE (2) LORD GOD IS UPON (3) ME;-Isa 61:1. Again, we note that there are three separate Persons.

FROM THE BEGINNING; FROM THE TIME THAT IT WAS, THERE (1) AM I: AND NOW THE (2) LORD GOD, AND HIS (3) SPIRIT, HATH SENT (1) ME-Isa 48:16. Again we note that there are three separate Persons.

BEHOLD MY SERVANT, WHOM I UPHOLD; MINE ELECT, IN WHOM MY SOUL DELIGHTETH; I (1) HAVE PUT (2) MY SPIRIT UPON (3) HIM: HE SHALL BRING FORTH JUDGMENT TO THE GENTILES-Isa 42:1. Again we note that there are three separate Persons.

AND THERE SHALL COME FORTH A ROD OUT OF THE STEM OF JESSE, AND A BRANCH SHALL GROW OUT OF HIS ROOTS: AND THE (1) SPIRIT OF THE (2) LORD SHALL REST UPON (3) HIM-Isa 11:1,2. Again we see the three Persons of the Trinity.

AND THE EARTH WAS WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID; AND DARKNESS WAS UPON THE FACE OF THE DEEP. AND THE (1) SPIRIT OF (2) GOD MOVED UPON THE FACE OF THE WATERS-Gen 1:2. Here we note two Persons of the Trinity.

Because of the three Persons of the Trinity, we can now understand why God uses the word "Us" in the following verses.
Adam had sinned. THE LORD SAID, BEHOLD, THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US (plural)-Gen 3:22. The "Us" is referring to more than one—the Trinity.
AND GOD SAID, LET ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</st1:country-region><ST1:place w:st="on">US</ST1:place> (more than one) MAKE MAN IN OUR (plural) IMAGE, AFTER OUR (plural) LIKENESS-Gen 1:26. The "us" is referring to more than one, the Trinity.


There are many other Scriptures that also show two or three Persons of the Trinity. Some of them are listed here. Job 26:13; 27:3; 33:4; 1 Cor 12:4-6; Ps 2:2,7,12; Isa 63:6-16; Ps 51:1; Zech 7:12.<O:p

 

[xAmbientxCatalystx]

Thank you kindly Vic, but thanks be to God over all.

 

[Free]

Anyways, for this reason and many others, I detest new age translations, and so the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) is more than enough proof of the "Trinity" for me.

What I detest is the use of the term "new age translations," likely started by Gail Riplinger and others of her ilk. But, yes, that is another topic.

Regardless of whether or not the Johannine Comma was actually in the original text, the concept of the trinity is clearly there in most every Christian version of the Bible. It just seems that some people need it spelled out clearly rather than having to do some actual study on the matter.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scripture that indicates God is a Trinity !

I have made some testimony of the Trinity in my Jesus is God Thread, but I will resume comments on the Trinity in this thread.

Equally the objects of Worship - <!-- status icon and date --><!-- status icon and date --><!-- / status icon and date -->

<HR>

<!-- message -->Another scripture that presents God as Triune is 2 cor 13:


14The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

The arabic version has " The Love of the Father"

But in any case, we have scripture Testimony of the Three Divine Beings, which are the One God..
<!-- / message -->

 

[Tri Unity]

.Belief or disbelief in the word "Trinity" per se is not important. What's important is having a right biblical undersanding of Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to Scriptures.

This is true... however...

The "biblical understanding of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" is in the eye of the beholder. That was one of the reasons that the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in the first place... it prevented a host of erroneus teachings from being confused with the "biblical understanding." Modalism, for instance, often gets confused for the Trinity; and so does the idea that God entered into Jesus at his baptism, making him "the Christ".

Now there are different "accepted" contepts of the trinity, such as the Ontological Trinity and the Economic Trinity; which are really just different ways to help explain the holes contained in the traditional trinity given at Nicaea.

I think the term trinity has turned out, in hindsight, to be erroneous and devastating. Locking God into a strict definition has been like trying to lasoo an eyeball. The religous wars and conflicts over this term from the 4th - 11th century have caused countless murders and conflicts among brothers. That does not mean the concept of Tri Unity should be removed; just that the strict definition and terminology of the trinity should be removed. The definitions given by the original inventors, Tertullian, Vallentinius, Dionysius, etc., are now different to the definitions that we now use, which seems highly ironic. In short, we need a broader definition and term that is actually biblical.

Tri

 

[Slider]

For what it's worth, I don't subscribe to the Trinity theory. I'm not interested in debating about it. I've been in enough of them and, of course, never lost! Also of course, those whom I've debated would probably say I've never won. Such is the nature of message boards debates.

I will, however, give my perspective for those like Dalton who may want to know where folks like myself are coming from.

It's no secret that the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. I never bring it up actually. There's no need to because usually those I'm debating bring it up for me. While it is a point, I usually don't pay it much attention when discussing it.

When folks bring up that the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Ghost are in the Bible, I have no problem agreeing. Absolutely they are there, and I have no problem believing that each of the three exists and let me add, Jesus Christ IS God. He was devine, and everything the Bible says he was.

Someone mentioned Catholics taking the concept from paganism. That I do have a problem with. I suppose you can do your own internet research and find information on the link between paganism and Trinity (I'm not interested in defending or commenting on it too much at this point). If there is a link and Rome "Christianized" a pagan tradition, it's clearly wrong.

Here is another thing I disagree with: While I don't deny the Father, the Son nor the Holy Ghost, I do not agree with how the Nicean Creed treats them. Supposedly, they are one God in three separate persons. Jesus is not the Father, The Father is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not Jesus. They are separate, yet the three make up one God. But there aren't 3 Gods. But each of them is fully God....

Huh? No wonder Trinitarians have the phrase, "No one can understand the Trinity!"

Here's my thing.... I don't bother to separate them. They aren't all seperate persons. It is one God and only one God who manifests himself in many ways... And not just three.

So, there you have it. To summarize, I don't have a problem believing in God the Father, Jesus Christ (God manifest in the flesh) nor the Holy Ghost. I do have a problem with three separate persons of God and the pagan influenences that may or may not have led to the doctrine.

I'll take questions, but I'm not interested in debating. If you want to know my perspective, I'll tell you.

 

[farouk]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly seen in Matthew 28, in John's Gospel, particularly chapters 13 to 17 and in John's First Epistle, and elsewhere. It is a wondrous thing to see the three Persons clearly working together in redemption.

 

[Tri Unity]

I'll take questions...

You sound like the president after his speech.

Modalism seems to be an easy expression for many people. The math seems to work better for them... it is not 3 = 1, it is 1 divided by 3. The problem with these ideas is that there is a lot of scripture that you need to ignore; such as when Jesus cried out to His Father... was He really crying out to Himself? Was He just pretending to communicate to another being? Did the Father really die on the cross? etc... Well, all the best with that!

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly seen in Matthew 28, in John's Gospel, particularly chapters 13 to 17 and in John's First Epistle, and elsewhere.
It is a wondrous thing to see the three Persons clearly working together in redemption.

This statement is so general it could conceal gnosticism, or paganism, or heathenism, or heresy... until you explain what you mean you are not saying anything.

 

[for_his_glory]

The word Trinity is not found in scripture as this is an English word for the description which is already proclaimed in scripture as all three being that of Gods Spirit. It's like the English word Rapture which is not found in scripture, but the word description is as in being caught up which is in scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.