The Trinity

[Free]

Only Scripture is to be used, as if no external writings or creeds exist. We'll keep the Word of God unleavened. Original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic is encouraged.

You have just made the rules impossible, unless both of you are well educated in original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, and I do not believe either of you are, or unless you do not count lexicons and concordances as external writings, in which case you need to define what you mean by "external writings".

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Free,

You have just made the rules impossible, unless both of you are well educated in original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, and I do not believe either of you are, or unless you do not count lexicons and concordances as external writings, in which case you need to define what you mean by "external writings".

Of course lexicons and concordances are fine Free. My point was to stay true to the Word only, and not the creeds and/or denominational traditions of men. Why would you randomly assume neither of us are well educated in the Hebrew and Greek? Some certainly are. But why even say something like that? At any rate, never mind. I did not say the Hebrew and Greek were NECESSARY, but rather simple encouraged for the purpose of staying true to the Scriptures (due to questionable translations of certain passages in English Bibles.)

Originally posted by rrowell,

Before we begin, I would like to know where you stand, do you believe Jesus is God or only a man, do you believe Jesus was ever a God before he was a man, answer those two questions.

This question comes as a surprise, because I have thoroughly and repeatedly gone over this in most of my previous posts in this thread. I'm now left to wonder if you honestly read them.

Anyway, I will answer you anyway using Scripture:


2 Corinthians 4:4 "Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God"

Revelation 3:14 "The BEGINNING of the creation of God"

Matthew 16:16 "Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD"

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

2 John 3 "The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER"

John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

Mark 10;18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God [the Father]."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (Greek - Jesus is the Logos of God).

• Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he God saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

And:

Philippians 2:6 "Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

• Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

Matthew 8:2 "And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..."

Matthew 9:18 "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and WORSHIPED Him"

Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and WORSHIPED Him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Matthew 15:25 "Then came she and WORSHIPED Him, saying, Lord, help me."


So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it robbery to be "equal" with God

• Do I believe Jesus was ever a God before He was a man?

YES! Christ is Yahweh - the God of the Old Testament.

Jesus said,

John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at ANY TIME, nor seen his shape."

Also,

1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation ["verse 9- "the salvation of your soul"] the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."


The prophets (and angels = messengers) desire to understand what is now revealed to us about the "salvation that we are receiving... which was NOT unto themselves but unto us."

And who was it that was telling the Old Testament prophets all of this? "...the Spirit of Christ which was in them" (1 Peter 1:11 - above)

Obviously, because:

John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, etc. saw the shape and heard the voice of Yahweh the LORD. Who they assumed was the Father was really 'the word [which] was with God.' It was Christ!

Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

Luke 10:22 "All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."

 

[JLB]

Of course lexicons and concordances are fine Free. My point was to stay true to the Word only, and not the creeds and/or denominational traditions of men. Why would you randomly assume neither of us are well educated in the Hebrew and Greek? Some certainly are. But why even say something like that? At any rate, never mind. I did not say the Hebrew and Greek were NECESSARY, but rather simple encouraged for the purpose of staying true to the Scriptures (due to questionable translations of certain passages in English Bibles.)






This question comes as a surprise, because I have thoroughly and repeatedly gone over this in most of my previous posts in this thread. I'm now left to wonder if you honestly read them.

Anyway, I will answer you anyway using Scripture:


2 Corinthians 4:4 "Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God"

Revelation 3:14 "The BEGINNING of the creation of God"

Matthew 16:16 "Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD"

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

2 John 3 "The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER"

John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

Mark 10;18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God [the Father]."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (Greek - Jesus is the Logos of God).

• Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he God saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

And:

Philippians 2:6 "Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

• Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

Matthew 8:2 "And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..."

Matthew 9:18 "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and WORSHIPED Him"

Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and WORSHIPED Him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Matthew 15:25 "Then came she and WORSHIPED Him, saying, Lord, help me."


So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it robbery to be "equal" with God

• Do I believe Jesus was ever a God before He was a man?

YES! Christ is Yahweh - the God of the Old Testament.

Jesus said,

John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at ANY TIME, nor seen his shape."

Also,

1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation ["verse 9- "the salvation of your soul"] the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."


The prophets (and angels = messengers) desire to understand what is now revealed to us about the "salvation that we are receiving... which was NOT unto themselves but unto us."

And who was it that was telling the Old Testament prophets all of this? "...the Spirit of Christ which was in them" (1 Peter 1:11 - above)

Obviously, because:

John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, etc. saw the shape and heard the voice of Yahweh the LORD. Who they assumed was the Father was really 'the word [which] was with God.' It was Christ!

Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

Luke 10:22 "All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."

Good post! A Little long. But Good post.


JLB

 

[Asyncritus]

Man, that's great!

So what is the answer to my Question?

Number 3 for me!

I confess that Jesus Christ was God, is God will always be God.

What is your confession?

1. A man
2. An Angel
3. God

Is it 1,2 or 3?


JLB

I asked first.

And, I have answered your question. Did you miss it? Let me say it again.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth

And in Jesus Christ, His Only-Begotten Son our Lord

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit

Born of the virgin Mary

[and you know the rest].

Now answer mine.

 

[Asyncritus]

It means Jesus the Son is Not that Fullness. As in the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him.

Fullness of the Deity

The Father's fullness. As Jesus taught the Father is IN Him.

Why would a being who was God and always was need that fullness to dwell in them? Whose mind "pleased" to dwell in Him? There was no God formed before the Father nor will there be one formed after Him.

Do you want to start again ?

You're going to have to, because I can't see any sign of your looking up what scripture says that 'fulness' means.

It is not a commonly used English word nowadays, so I'd like to see your research on the subject.

Jesus called the Father the One True God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT" ?

Jesus has always been the Son.

Randy

Jesus was not always the Son.

A divine declaration was made when He rose from the dead:

Rom 1.4 'Declared to be the Son of God with power, by the resurrection from the dead'.

Up to that time the possibility always existed that He could slip - as shown only too clearly in Gethsemane.

But at the resurrection the declaration of Ps 2 was fulfilled:

"Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee". Meaning that He was THAT DAY, the FIRSTBEGOTTEN FROM THE DEAD.

Therefore, BEFORE THAT DAY, He was not the Son with all that means.

So which day do you think that refers to?

 

[JLB]

I asked first.

And, I have answered your question. Did you miss it? Let me say it again.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth

And in Jesus Christ, His Only-Begotten Son our Lord

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit

Born of the virgin Mary

[and you know the rest].

Now answer mine.

You have not answered anything!

You stated what others believe in a man made creed.

I am asking you a direct question.

Not what Jesus' title is, such as Lord.

But What He is.

1. Man
2. Angel
3. God

Which of these three do you claim as your belief in Christ?




JLB

 

[Stormcrow]

When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18 (NASB)

"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'" Isaiah 41:4 (NASB)

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isaiah 44:6 (NASB)

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. "Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Isaiah 48:12-13 (NASB)

Jesus is God incarnate, who is the same Lord God of the Old Testament as He is of the New.

Either this is true, as He said in Revelation 1, or it is not. If it is not, He is not anything else He claimed to be, either.

God is neither a liar nor can He lie.

 

[Free]

Of course lexicons and concordances are fine Free. My point was to stay true to the Word only, and not the creeds and/or denominational traditions of men. Why would you randomly assume neither of us are well educated in the Hebrew and Greek? Some certainly are. But why even say something like that? At any rate, never mind. I did not say the Hebrew and Greek were NECESSARY, but rather simple encouraged for the purpose of staying true to the Scriptures (due to questionable translations of certain passages in English Bibles.)

My "assumption" that neither of you are well educated in Hebrew and Greek is far from random. It was a deduction from the obvious. This conversation would be far different had anyone in this entire thread been educated in either Hebrew or Greek. It is not a slight against either of you personally, but rather to point out a great difficulty with what you are asking.

Since no one is educated in the original languages, more than mere lexicons and concordances will be necessary. There is significantly more to interpreting and understanding the Hebrew and Greek then simply looking up meanings of words. That can, and does, often lead to error.

So in the end you will end up relying on others. You must, there is no way around it.

 

[Asyncritus]

You have not answered anything!

You stated what others believe in a man made creed.

I am asking you a direct question.

Not what Jesus' title is, such as Lord.

But What He is.

1. Man
2. Angel
3. God

Which of these three do you claim as your belief in Christ?

JLB

He is a man.

1 Tim, 1.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now, is Mary the mother of God?

 

[Asyncritus]

When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18 (NASB)

"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'" Isaiah 41:4 (NASB)

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isaiah 44:6 (NASB)

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. "Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Isaiah 48:12-13 (NASB)

Jesus is God incarnate, who is the same Lord God of the Old Testament as He is of the New.

Either this is true, as He said in Revelation 1, or it is not. If it is not, He is not anything else He claimed to be, either.

God is neither a liar nor can He lie.

These are all wonderful quotes proving the UNITY of God.

Now what is Jesus RIGHT NOW? Let Paul tell you:

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now put that in conjunction with this:

1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

And what conclusion do you draw?

And is Mary the mother of God?

 

[farouk]

The Word became flesh: John 1.14. This is indeed the wondrous mystery of the Incarnation.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Free,

My "assumption" that neither of you are well educated in Hebrew and Greek is far from random. It was a deduction from the obvious. This conversation would be far different had anyone in this entire thread been educated in either Hebrew or Greek.

No Free, this conversation would be far different had EVERYONE in this entire thread been educated in either Hebrew or Greek. Those who might know a thing or two are certainly not going to post things that do no good for 'the whole' of the forum. As a moderator, I'm surprised you not only would make such assumptions, but would strain at a gnat for the purpose of trifle prattle. We should be focusing on the topic at hand.

 

[JLB]

He is a man.

1 Tim, 1.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now, is Mary the mother of God?

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

God became flesh!

Mary gave birth to the flesh, Mary is not the mother of God.


JLB

 

[Free]

No Free, this conversation would be far different had EVERYONE in this entire thread been educated in either Hebrew or Greek. Those who might know a thing or two are certainly not going to post things that do no good for 'the whole' of the forum. As a moderator, I'm surprised you not only would make such assumptions, but would strain at a gnat for the purpose of trifle prattle. We should be focusing on the topic at hand.

Being a moderator or not has nothing to do with making an observation which is directly relevant to a statement that you made, and hence, is focusing on the topic at hand.

You want to have a discussion where "Only Scripture is to be used, as if no external writings or creeds exist. We'll keep the Word of God unleavened. Original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic is encouraged." You think that this will be "true to the Word only, and not the creeds and/or denominational traditions of men."

Yet there are at least a couple of significant difficulties with your proposal. First, no one is unbiased when approaching the Scriptures, so regardless of which language is preferred, the outcome is likely to be the same. Second, since no one is formally educated in the biblical languages, anyone involved in the discussion must refer to more than just lexicons and concordances--books on word studies and biblical exposition, etc.--or serious error will likely result.

So, far from straining out a gnat, you cannot do such a discussion without relying on "the creeds and/or denominational traditions of men." It's impossible.

 

[WIP]

But she is the mother of the man, Jesus, right?

 

[farouk]

It's good to stick close to Scripture. The Bible tells Mary as the mother of the Lord Jesus, although the phrase 'mother of God' is not used.

 

[Asyncritus]

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

God became flesh!

Come on, JLB, you should know better by now: that this passage doesn't mean what you would like it to mean - but we've been over this ground before.

Mary gave birth to the flesh, Mary is not the mother of God.

Now look at the knots you're going to get tied up in.

You say Jesus was God.

You agree that Mary was His mother.

How can you avoid the conclusion that Mary was the mother of God?

If I was a catholic, I'd have you over a barrel at this point, believe me.

But you're feeling the strain, and have had to produce this ad hoc answer. I'm very glad I don't have to defend your position!

But thanks for trying anyway. At least you now see the problem, even if you can't satisfactorily solve it.

 

[Free]

Now look at the knots you're going to get tied up in.

You say Jesus was God.

You agree that Mary was His mother.

How can you avoid the conclusion that Mary was the mother of God?

If I was a catholic, I'd have you over a barrel at this point, believe me.

But you're feeling the strain, and have had to produce this ad hoc answer. I'm very glad I don't have to defend your position!

But thanks for trying anyway. At least you now see the problem, even if you can't satisfactorily solve it.

These types of arguments simply do nothing to show that Jesus isn't God but rather reveal a lack of understanding about the Trinity and all that Scripture reveals about God, including the mystery of the Incarnation.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Free,

So, far from straining out a gnat, you cannot do such a discussion without relying on "the creeds and/or denominational traditions of men." It's impossible

Another assumption. I would advise you to give it a try, it's the only way you will ever partake of unleavened bread.

Exodus 12:19 "Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land."

Matthew 16:6 "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."

Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Now, if you don't mind, I would like to get back to the topic.

 

[JLB]

Come on, JLB, you should know better by now: that this passage doesn't mean what you would like it to mean - but we've been over this ground before.

Now look at the knots you're going to get tied up in.

You say Jesus was God.

You agree that Mary was His mother.

How can you avoid the conclusion that Mary was the mother of God?

If I was a catholic, I'd have you over a barrel at this point, believe me.

But you're feeling the strain, and have had to produce this ad hoc answer. I'm very glad I don't have to defend your position!

But thanks for trying anyway. At least you now see the problem, even if you can't satisfactorily solve it.

God BECAME flesh!

The way you believe: Man became flesh.

Because he took on the likeness of sinful flesh, do you think that diminished His qualities as God.

God was manifested in the flesh.

Simple!

You either believe and confess by being baptized or you are damned.

No knots. Not complicated.


JLB