The Trinity

[joethemechanic]

Does anyone really get The Trinity? Whenever I ask people, I get John 1:1 quotes and a bunch of sort of disconnected thoughts.

And yeah I've heard all the stuff like I am my father's son, my daughter's father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Nick]

Is this going to be an Apologetics, Bible Study, or general Christian discussion? Need to know where to move this.

 

[joethemechanic]

Well I'm not sure, I'd like to hear some theories on it, but I'd also like to know how many others have a hard time with the concept.

 

[Nick]

Well I'm not sure, I'd like to hear some theories on it, but I'd also like to know how many others have a hard time with the concept.

Hmmm. I'll leave it here for the time being, but if you want only Christian responses, I'll move it to Christian Talk & Advice.

 

[WIP]

The way I see it? God is one. God is three individually. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not hard for me to accept at all. After all God is God. Anything is possible with God.

Some things we are just not capable of understanding but that's okay. Someday we will understand if He wants us to.

 

[Tri Unity]

The Trinity is the most controversial subject of Christian History. It seemed to inflame people to heights of hatred and contempt more than any subject. I do not know why that is the case. That's the part I don't get.

The doctrine of the trinity evolved over the centuries. It was not always agreed what the correct definition was. It became fixed in concrete in the 4th century, in 383 AD. The original creed proposed at Nicaea in 325 AD was rejected, as it did not factor in the relationship of the Holy Spirit. The creed was even rejected entirely a few times, and the Arian model was accepted as the true orthodox model under Emperor Constantius (Contantine's son).

I personally think that there should be allowed a little room for opinion on the subject, as light is seen through various spectrums. My view is not orthodox from that point of view; the orthodox view is inflexible and intolerant of any variation. I do not think this "orthodox view" was the original teaching. The original teaching was not confronted when various models were presented (accept for modalism, etc.). The second century fathers presented various models that I think are quite sound; yet they are now rejected. I would say most people today explain the trinity in an unorthodox way.

 

[handy]

A: God isn't human and when we try to understand Him with human concepts, it's always going to get a little tricky.

B: If you ever, ever get to the place where you can understand God... you've succeeded in replacing the real God with a god of your own construction.

Not really an answer to your question, I realize... but nonetheless, good points to consider.

 

[joethemechanic]

I'm really always surprised that when talking with many people who identify as Christian, when I mention The Trinity, they look at me like I'm from Mars. It's like they never heard of it before.

 

[txgirlmaddy]

I'm really always surprised that when talking with many people who identify as Christian, when I mention The Trinity, they look at me like I'm from Mars. It's like they never heard of it before.

I probably should ask the question for the class... Could you summarize or give me a short "For Dummies" version. Not for me, but for the kids in the class.... lols, ya okay I'm raising my hand cause I don't know either thanks, maddy

 

[Tri Unity]

The main differnce between the doctrine of the Trinity in the second century and the doctrine of the Trinity in the 4th century was the teaching in the 2nd century of subnumeration; that is, the ordering from within the Trinity; and subordinationism, that is, the father is greater than the Son and the Holy Spirit. These distinctions were made in the earlier centuries, whereas in later centuries this distinction was removed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subordinationism

Many evangelical scholars have been returning to a subordination Trinity; as the doctrine has been reviewed critically in recent times. The Godhead as presented by Jehovah's Witnesses was only taught among Christian gnostics; it was NEVER taught among Christians per se. Arianism believed strongly in the doctrine of the Trinity; it disputed only the order and nature of Christ's origin.

 

[handy]

I probably should ask the question for the class... Could you summarize or give me a short "For Dummies" version. Not for me, but for the kids in the class.... lols, ya okay I'm raising my hand cause I don't know either thanks, maddy

I know this was directed at Joe, but I'll share my own "For Dummies" version...

We have one God, and God is three distinct Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three-in-One...

This is where things get murky because humans are not able to be One with three distinct persons unless one is ... how shall we say... mentally ill?

This is why we need to understand we are not dealing with a human being here. What is impossible for us is possible for God. He is ONE God, and He has revealed Himself to us as three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mike S]

The trinity is one of the most difficult to understand parts of our Christian theology. The way I understand it, as not three distinct separate beings, but as three different manifestations of one God, is probably thought of by some as heresy. In early Chrisitan deveopment it's known as Sabellianism.

 

[Brightmorningstar]

The Trinity is probably the most controversial subject of Christian History, not least because Islam specifically denies it as part of its scripture.

That God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not really a diffcult concept when one considers water, ice and steam are all h2o.

Of course the word Trinity is just the word to describe the nature of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. one could call it by another word.

However it is core Christian, the Nicene Creed is a very high level faith statement and one cant be a Christian by definition if one doesnt believe

One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)

 

[txgirlmaddy]

I know this was directed at Joe, but I'll share my own "For Dummies" version...

We have one God, and God is three distinct Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three-in-One...

This is where things get murky because humans are not able to be One with three distinct persons unless one is ... how shall we say... mentally ill?

This is why we need to understand we are not dealing with a human being here. What is impossible for us is possible for God. He is ONE God, and He has revealed Himself to us as three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

ThankYOU this was EXCELLENT and I completely understand it. I also love your opinion on it. Of course God is not a person, he is GOD.. he invented people... duh! LOL Thanks for this. Gonna share it with my gfs.

 

[Tri Unity]

He is ONE God, and He has revealed Himself to us as three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

This view is, as Mark mentioned, Sabellianism (or Modalism). This is how tricky it gets... this view is considered heretical. It was condemned by the councils of the church. That is, one God who "revealed Himself to us as three distinct Persons."

H2o is generally rejected as an analogy too, as it is also a form of Modalism (The one water which is manifested as ice, steam or water). Tricky huh!

 

[joethemechanic]

ThankYOU this was EXCELLENT and I completely understand it. I also love your opinion on it. Of course God is not a person, he is GOD.. he invented people... duh! LOL Thanks for this. Gonna share it with my gfs.

If only I could come at this with a youthful mind, able to first accept this, and then learn about it.

Instead I want to first study it, make it work out mathematically. do some tests, and then if everything works out accept it. But only after I double check the math.

 

[stovebolts]

The idea of the trinity is just a way to wrap our minds around and attempt to articulate the nature of God and his relationship with his Son and the Holy Spirit.

For the Hebrew mind, things don't have to make logical sense to be true. Actually, two opposing views could both be true and both could be accepted as true while still being held in tension with one another.

You'll drive yourself insane trying to "nail" the mathematical proof of the trinity and put it in a box. To Tri-Unity's point, this approach has caused much division among the church. This is one topic that ultimatly divided the church in 1054 and continues to keeps the church divided. Kinda stupid huh? History shows us that the Coptics didn't try to define it and didn't really care... and yet the "Church" never rejected them.

Good luck and remember, it aint a salvation issue. It's simply a way to understand the nature of God... and good luck with that.

 

[cleanfreak]

1 John 5:7 never existed in the original Greek text. Just google it and you will find out. So let's use some Hebrew to see what it says.

I did a recent in depth study and teaching on this and the simpliest way to explain it is as follows.

Isaiah 9:6 states Jesus will be called 'Mighty God'. The Hebrew word used here for 'Mighty' is 'Gibbor'. The full Hebrew used for 'Mighty God' is El Gibbor.

We all know that God the Father is called EL Shaddai, which means ALmighty God

The Hebrew for the 'Spirit of God' is EL Ruach.

Now, each one has it's own name, therefore they are a different person, but nevertheless they are all part of God or 'EL'.

This pic can be found by a simple google of 'trinity' and click on images. This pretty much explains it all.

View attachment 2629

 

[Free]

This view is, as Mark mentioned, Sabellianism (or Modalism). This is how tricky it gets... this view is considered heretical. It was condemned by the councils of the church. That is, one God who "revealed Himself to us as three distinct Persons."

Her view isn't necessarily Modalism. Modalism is more than just "one God who 'revealed Himself to us as three distinct Persons." In fact, that statement alone, without further qualification, is compatible with both Trinitarianism and Modalism.

H2o is generally rejected as an analogy too, as it is also a form of Modalism (The one water which is manifested as ice, steam or water). Tricky huh!

Unless one considers the triple point of water.

 

[Free]

Does anyone really get The Trinity? Whenever I ask people, I get John 1:1 quotes and a bunch of sort of disconnected thoughts.

And yeah I've heard all the stuff like I am my father's son, my daughter's father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Does anyone really get it? Likely not. It is, as several have said, one of the most difficult doctrines in Christianity but it is also central to Christian belief. In the end, we must have a theology of God that best takes into account all that Scripture reveals about Him. Among the things that must be taken into account:

1. Passages which speak of the Father as being God.
2. Passages which speak of the Son as being God--eternal pre-existence; creator; Jesus' own claims--yet not the Father.
3. Passages which speak of the Son as being human.
4. Passages which speak of the Holy Spirit using terms indicative of intelligence, will, "personhood" and "Godhood".
5. Very importantly, the clear teaching of Scripture, from beginning to end, that there is, always has been and only ever will be, one God.

All of those must be taken into account and one point cannot simply overrule another, as is most often done by those who deny the Trinity--usually the focus is only on Jesus being human, which forces either the denial or twisting of passages showing him to be God as well.

The doctrine that best takes into account all that is revealed about the nature of God is the doctrine of the Trinity.