-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
-
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
The Truth About Rosary Beads ?
- Thread starter Relic
- Start date
W
William Putnam
Guest
jgredline said:
Hummmm, there may be:
If anyone sees his brothere sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is deadly. 1 John 5:16-17
Knowing that is is a bit off-topic from the thrust of this thread, I will simply add that I pray the rosary often that my venial sins are forgiven, and that I can avoid temptation to commit a mortal sin.
![pop[1].gif](http://forums.catholic-convert.com/images/smiles/pop[1].gif)
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
jgredline
Member
- Jun 26, 2006
- 4,090
- 1
William Putnam said:Hummmm, there may be:
If anyone sees his brothere sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is deadly. 1 John 5:16-17
Knowing that is is a bit off-topic from the thrust of this thread, I will simply add that I pray the rosary often that my venial sins are forgiven, and that I can avoid temptation to commit a mortal sin.
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
wILLIAM
aRE YOU saying that ''GOD'' who is 100000000000% Holy can view one sin greater than the other....Just trying to be clear....As far as that Rosary, well
all I can say is keep up doing the good Works of holding on to your salvation :wink:
W
William Putnam
Guest
jgredline said:
Since we were made in the Image of God, we humans logically see that to steal a candy bar is less of a sin then deliberastely killing another. Therefore, we are a reflection of how God thinks, and yes, He can see a sin that is lesser in consiquence then a more serious sin, His omniscience and infinite holiness has nothing to do with it at all! :o
But then that leads to a quandry, that all sin is sin, and with any sin on our souls, we cannot enter heaven, since we need to be white as snow.
So what happens if we have a sin that is "not deadly" per the 1 John quote I previously gave anhd we die with that sin on our soul?
There is an answer, but I want to see if I can steer you into it. :-D
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
S
Solo
Guest
Venial sins and Mortal sins concerning eternal life or everlasting death are not found in the Scriptures, but are teachings of the Roman Catholic institution. The wages of ALL sin is death. The penalty of various sins committed by the Israelites had various penalties attached whereby some sins were dealt with by death, and other sins were dealt with by a lessor punishment, but in the spiritual realm, sin is sin, and the wages of the very least sin is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:22-23
The Bible speaks of one who keeps all of God's law perfectly, but transgresses in one point, that one is guilty of breaking the entire law.
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. James 2:8-13
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone see his brother sin
Those who have such an interest at the throne of grace, and such boldness and freedom there, should make use of it for others, as well as themselves, and particularly for fallen believers; for a "brother"; not in a natural or civil sense, but in a spiritual sense, one that is judged to be born again, and belongs to the family and household of God, and is a member of a Gospel church; and so is under the watch, inspection, and care of the saints; and is observed to sin, as the best of men are not without it, nor the commission of it, in thought, word, or deed: and this sin of his is
a sin [which is] not unto death;
every sin, even the least sin, is in its own nature mortal, or deserving of death; the proper wages of sin is death, yea, death eternal; yet none of the sins of God's elect are unto death, or issue in death, in fact; which is owing not to any different nature there is in their sins, or to their good works which counterbalance them; but to the grace of God, and to the blood and righteousness of Christ, by which they are pardoned and justified, and freed from obligation to punishment, or eternal death, the just demerits of them: but how should another man know that a brother's sin is not unto death, when it is of the same nature and kind with another man's? it is known by this, that he does not continue in it; he does not live in the constant commission of it; his life is not a course of iniquity; that sin he sins is not a governing one in him; though he falls into it, he rises up out of it through divine grace, and abides not in it; and he has a sense of it, and is sorry for it, after a godly sort, loaths it, and himself for it; is ashamed of it, ingenuously confesses it, and mourns over it and forsakes it: now when any strong believer or spiritual man sees or knows that a brother has sinned, and this is his case,
he shall ask;
he shall pray to God for him, that he would administer comfort to him, discover his love, and apply his pardoning grace to him, and indulge him with his presence and the light of his countenance:
and he shall give him life;
that is, God shall give the sinning brother life; by which may be meant comfort, that which will revive his drooping spirits, and cause him to live cheerfully and comfortably, that so he may not be swallowed up with over much sorrow; or he shall grant a discovery of the pardon of his sin unto him, which will be as life from the dead, and will give him a comfortable hope of eternal life, of his right unto it, and meetness for it:
for them,
or "to them"
that sin not unto death,
as the Syriac and Arabic versions render it; for this phrase is only descriptive of the persons to whom life is given by God, upon the prayers of saints for them, and not that this life is given to him that prays, and by him to be given to the sinning person. The Vulgate Latin version renders the whole thus, "and life shall be given to him that sins not unto death"; which leaves the words without any difficulty: the Ethiopic version indeed renders it, "and he that prays shall quicken him that sins [a sin] not unto death"; and this sense some interpreters incline to, and would have with this text compared (1 Timothy 4:16) (James 5:20) .
There is a sin unto death;
which is not only deserving of death, as every other sin is, but which certainly and inevitably issues in death in all that commit it, without exception; and that is the sin against the Holy Ghost, which is neither forgiven in this world nor in that to come, and therefore must be unto death; it is a sinning wilfully, not in a practical, but doctrinal way, after a man has received the knowledge of the truth; it is a wilful denial of the truth of the Gospel, particularly that peace, pardon, righteousness, eternal life, and salvation, are by Jesus Christ, contrary to the light of his mind, and this joined with malice and obstinacy; so that there is no more or other sacrifice for such a sin; there is nothing but a fearful looking for of wrath and fury to fall on such opposers of the way of life; and as the presumptuous sinners under Moses's law died without mercy, so must these despiteful ones under the Gospel; see (Matthew 12:31,32) (Hebrews 10:26-29) . Some think there is an allusion to one of the kinds of excommunication among the Jews, called "shammatha", the etymology of which, according to some Jewish writers, is (htym Mv) , "there is death" F20.
I do not say that he shall pray for it;
the apostle does not expressly forbid to pray for the forgiveness of this sin, yet what he says amounts unto it; he gives no encouragement to it, or any hopes of succeeding, but rather the reverse; and indeed where this sin is known, or can be known, it is not to be prayed for, because it is irremissible; but as it is a most difficult point to know when a man has sinned it, the apostle expresses himself with great caution.
All unrighteousness is sin
All unrighteousness against God or man is a sin against the law of God, and the wrath of God is revealed against it, and it is deserving of death; yet all unrighteousness is not unto death, as the sins of David, which were unrighteousness both to God and man, and yet they were put away, and he died not; Peter sinned very foully, and did great injustice to his dear Lord, and yet his sin was not unto death; he had repentance unto life given him, and a fresh application of pardoning grace:
and there is a sin not unto death;
this is added for the relief of weak believers, who hearing of a sin unto death, not to be prayed for, might fear that theirs were of that kind, whereas none of them are; for though they are guilty of many unrighteousnesses, yet God is merciful to them and forgives, (Hebrews 8:12) , and so they are not unto death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOOTNOTES:
F20 T. Bab. Moed Katon, fol. 17. 1.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:22-23
The Bible speaks of one who keeps all of God's law perfectly, but transgresses in one point, that one is guilty of breaking the entire law.
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. James 2:8-13
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone see his brother sin
Those who have such an interest at the throne of grace, and such boldness and freedom there, should make use of it for others, as well as themselves, and particularly for fallen believers; for a "brother"; not in a natural or civil sense, but in a spiritual sense, one that is judged to be born again, and belongs to the family and household of God, and is a member of a Gospel church; and so is under the watch, inspection, and care of the saints; and is observed to sin, as the best of men are not without it, nor the commission of it, in thought, word, or deed: and this sin of his is
a sin [which is] not unto death;
every sin, even the least sin, is in its own nature mortal, or deserving of death; the proper wages of sin is death, yea, death eternal; yet none of the sins of God's elect are unto death, or issue in death, in fact; which is owing not to any different nature there is in their sins, or to their good works which counterbalance them; but to the grace of God, and to the blood and righteousness of Christ, by which they are pardoned and justified, and freed from obligation to punishment, or eternal death, the just demerits of them: but how should another man know that a brother's sin is not unto death, when it is of the same nature and kind with another man's? it is known by this, that he does not continue in it; he does not live in the constant commission of it; his life is not a course of iniquity; that sin he sins is not a governing one in him; though he falls into it, he rises up out of it through divine grace, and abides not in it; and he has a sense of it, and is sorry for it, after a godly sort, loaths it, and himself for it; is ashamed of it, ingenuously confesses it, and mourns over it and forsakes it: now when any strong believer or spiritual man sees or knows that a brother has sinned, and this is his case,
he shall ask;
he shall pray to God for him, that he would administer comfort to him, discover his love, and apply his pardoning grace to him, and indulge him with his presence and the light of his countenance:
and he shall give him life;
that is, God shall give the sinning brother life; by which may be meant comfort, that which will revive his drooping spirits, and cause him to live cheerfully and comfortably, that so he may not be swallowed up with over much sorrow; or he shall grant a discovery of the pardon of his sin unto him, which will be as life from the dead, and will give him a comfortable hope of eternal life, of his right unto it, and meetness for it:
for them,
or "to them"
that sin not unto death,
as the Syriac and Arabic versions render it; for this phrase is only descriptive of the persons to whom life is given by God, upon the prayers of saints for them, and not that this life is given to him that prays, and by him to be given to the sinning person. The Vulgate Latin version renders the whole thus, "and life shall be given to him that sins not unto death"; which leaves the words without any difficulty: the Ethiopic version indeed renders it, "and he that prays shall quicken him that sins [a sin] not unto death"; and this sense some interpreters incline to, and would have with this text compared (1 Timothy 4:16) (James 5:20) .
There is a sin unto death;
which is not only deserving of death, as every other sin is, but which certainly and inevitably issues in death in all that commit it, without exception; and that is the sin against the Holy Ghost, which is neither forgiven in this world nor in that to come, and therefore must be unto death; it is a sinning wilfully, not in a practical, but doctrinal way, after a man has received the knowledge of the truth; it is a wilful denial of the truth of the Gospel, particularly that peace, pardon, righteousness, eternal life, and salvation, are by Jesus Christ, contrary to the light of his mind, and this joined with malice and obstinacy; so that there is no more or other sacrifice for such a sin; there is nothing but a fearful looking for of wrath and fury to fall on such opposers of the way of life; and as the presumptuous sinners under Moses's law died without mercy, so must these despiteful ones under the Gospel; see (Matthew 12:31,32) (Hebrews 10:26-29) . Some think there is an allusion to one of the kinds of excommunication among the Jews, called "shammatha", the etymology of which, according to some Jewish writers, is (htym Mv) , "there is death" F20.
I do not say that he shall pray for it;
the apostle does not expressly forbid to pray for the forgiveness of this sin, yet what he says amounts unto it; he gives no encouragement to it, or any hopes of succeeding, but rather the reverse; and indeed where this sin is known, or can be known, it is not to be prayed for, because it is irremissible; but as it is a most difficult point to know when a man has sinned it, the apostle expresses himself with great caution.
All unrighteousness is sin
All unrighteousness against God or man is a sin against the law of God, and the wrath of God is revealed against it, and it is deserving of death; yet all unrighteousness is not unto death, as the sins of David, which were unrighteousness both to God and man, and yet they were put away, and he died not; Peter sinned very foully, and did great injustice to his dear Lord, and yet his sin was not unto death; he had repentance unto life given him, and a fresh application of pardoning grace:
and there is a sin not unto death;
this is added for the relief of weak believers, who hearing of a sin unto death, not to be prayed for, might fear that theirs were of that kind, whereas none of them are; for though they are guilty of many unrighteousnesses, yet God is merciful to them and forgives, (Hebrews 8:12) , and so they are not unto death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOOTNOTES:
F20 T. Bab. Moed Katon, fol. 17. 1.
S
Solo
Guest
There is only one sin that can keep one from eternal life, and that sin is against the Holy Spirit. Once one gains eternal life, no sin has an eternal hold of death on one. Sin in a believer's life can cause destruction unto physical death, and a loss of rewards in the Kingdom of God.
W
William Putnam
Guest
Solo said:
Then please explain to me what 1 John 5:16-17 is all about?
I do see you posting something that attempts to explain it so, I will see how it goes…
So far, you are seeing both Paul and James speaking of the futility of reverting to the old laws of Judaism, now replaced by the new covenant and the displacement of those old laws by the gospel message and the saving blood of the cross.
Please note the singular use of the word “sin†here. To “sin a sin†is obviously singular, where as brother commits a singular act that is a sin. But what is a “sin into death� Is it not speaking of a CLASS of sins, such as murder, adultery, stealing, or in other words, what is prohibited in the Ten Commandments? And of course is included the sin against the holy Spirit?
Note further that to speak of “sin not unto death†is again, a CLASS of sins, such as a sudden flare of temper, stealing a candy bar from a store (as against stealing all of the funds of a poor family), and those evil thoughts that are entertained a time or two; all sins that are “not deadly.â€Â
A bit bloviated, but generally, I agree here…
<Scratching my head> John obviously speaks of sin that is not deadly, yet the author would seem to insist that all sin, regardless of it seriousness, is mortal! It is almost as if the statement by John goes flying completely over his head! Otherwise, when we get beyond the first statement, I could agree in that we pray for others, as we pray for ourselves, when we commit such minor sins, that class of sins that are not deadly.
OK…
Who is John writing this letter to? Born again “saved†Christians! Is the “brother†that sins a sinner? Indeed he is! Is the sin onto death? Not if it is a sin that is not deadly!
Is John speaking of one single deadly sin, the sin against the Holy Spirit, or of a CLASS of sins that are “unto death� By the same token, when John speaks of a sin that is not deadly, is he speaking as if there is only one such sin, or again, a CLASS of sins that are not deadly?
Finally, if John is speaking of deadly sins to Christians, is he not warning them that their salvation is not secure, that they must endure until the end that salvation comes when we are judged before Almighty God?
This get’s me into the “Once Saved, Alwasys Saved†(OSAS) subject which is another topic…
Yes, I can pray for a brother who is in mortal sin, and indeed I should, but my prayers per se will not absolve him of his sin! That takes another “action†one his part, as with David, who asked God for forgiveness of his sin of adultery. Getting on his or her knees and asking God for forgiveness is a good start. My “tagline†speaks of another below…
Please note that David was still punished for his sin, even while God forgave him with the loss of his son, which smacks of another topic…
If you insist that the statement “sin that is onto death†(or similar wording) is that singular sin against the Holy Spirit, the what say ye of a “sin not unto death� Is that a singular sin, or rather a CLASS of sins that fall into this category?
A few examples:
Stealing a candy bar from a store; Telling a minor lie that does not harm another; A sudden flare up of temper quickly subsiding over as minor issue; Stubbing my toe and suddenly taking God’s name in vain in a near involuntary action, and on and on and on…
Solo, thank you for your response here, but I think the author of this piece uses much too muchverbal obfuscation in a weak attempt to show what I humbly believe is obvious in the 1 John quote I gave.
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Receive the holy Spirit, Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained,
John 20:23
W
William Putnam
Guest
<Deleted as a duplicate>
W
William Putnam
Guest
jgredline said:
NO! Why do you ask?
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages
call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-48)
W
William Putnam
Guest
Solo said:
What about murder, stealing all the funds from a poor family, Adultary, those other prohibitive sins we see in the Ten Commandments, if we were to die with those sins on our souls...unforgiven?
Or are we going to go down the rabbit trail of "Once Saved, Always Saved"? :-D
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate
jgredline
Member
- Jun 26, 2006
- 4,090
- 1
Vic C. said:
MacArther taught that blasphemy could no longer be commited because Jesus is no longer with us. Infact may have taught this and I held this view for a while myself, but in the end, I do believe that many have indeed commited this sin...
While no true believer could ever commit this sin, there are those folks Like Hitler who went to sunday school, and marylyn manson who also was a ''christian'' at one time, I believe have indeed commited this sin....This is my own opinion....I know that many say that Hitler made a confession of faith before he died as did darwin and who knows. Maybe they did, maybe they did not. We will someday see....
Really one simply has to look around the world....to see how many folks have so much hate for the things of God......
Like you said. Even in a forum
:
G
Guest
Guest
If there is an unforgiveable sin, does that mean that Jesus's death does not save us from ALL sin?
I tend to agree with MacArthur, that the only time one can commit the 'unforgiveable sin' is when one sees the work of the Holy Spirit and attributes it to the work of Satan. As I have heard it taught, it can only occurs during the First and Second Advent of Christ.
I tend to agree with MacArthur, that the only time one can commit the 'unforgiveable sin' is when one sees the work of the Holy Spirit and attributes it to the work of Satan. As I have heard it taught, it can only occurs during the First and Second Advent of Christ.
reply
Boy, a lot of comments here. Briefly, what is this sin unto death? I believe it is the unpardonable sin. The Bible is saying not to even pray for a person who has committed this sin. However there is no way we could know whether a person has committed this sin. The only way one could know is if Jesus tells us. So what do we do? We look at scripture to find some answers. We have Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-29. I believe Hebrews 6:4-6 give us the conditionns that have to be met in order to commit this sin. Then Hebrews 10:26-29 tells us how we do it after meeting the conditions. Therefore, I do believe it is possible, but unlikely to lose one's salvation. How can one do it? To me it is obvious that one must knowingly, publically deny Jesus Christ after one is saved.
I absolutely disagree with William because it just doesn't make sense. Our sins are under the blood of Jesus. Folks, we have been clreansed from all unrighteousness as a result of the New Birth. I also disagree with my Brother Javior too. Let me ask you a question Jg. You say that if one loses their salvation, they weren't saved in the first place. I ask you, what salvation did they have to lose. That belief just doesn't make sense to me.
May God bless, Golfjack
Boy, a lot of comments here. Briefly, what is this sin unto death? I believe it is the unpardonable sin. The Bible is saying not to even pray for a person who has committed this sin. However there is no way we could know whether a person has committed this sin. The only way one could know is if Jesus tells us. So what do we do? We look at scripture to find some answers. We have Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-29. I believe Hebrews 6:4-6 give us the conditionns that have to be met in order to commit this sin. Then Hebrews 10:26-29 tells us how we do it after meeting the conditions. Therefore, I do believe it is possible, but unlikely to lose one's salvation. How can one do it? To me it is obvious that one must knowingly, publically deny Jesus Christ after one is saved.
I absolutely disagree with William because it just doesn't make sense. Our sins are under the blood of Jesus. Folks, we have been clreansed from all unrighteousness as a result of the New Birth. I also disagree with my Brother Javior too. Let me ask you a question Jg. You say that if one loses their salvation, they weren't saved in the first place. I ask you, what salvation did they have to lose. That belief just doesn't make sense to me.
May God bless, Golfjack
W
William Putnam
Guest
jgredline said:
Er, ah, what has that got to do with Mary praying the rosary or not?
But to answer your question, Mary needed a savior, since being sinless per se does not open the gates of heaven, which was closed by the original sin or our first parents.
But God, in his timelesness, needed the perfect human tabernacle that would contain Our Savior, who is God, for nine months. Mary was it! And of course, we both know what Our Lord did that opened the gates of heaven for all of us...including Mary, His mother, if only we accept him and HIs gospel message.
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate