The truth about the 3 "Persons" of the Trinity

[Drew]

A PROTESTANT publication states: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . .

This does not really challenge the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity. More specifically, there is no "rule" against the establishment of the truthfulness of a doctrine by "indirect" means.

The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."

Again, this is not an effective argument against the notion of the Trinity. You almost seem to be making the argument that a terse label must be applied to an item of doctrine before it attains the status of truth. This is clearly not correct. Suppose we had never invented the term "telecommunications". Does that mean that we could not have developed all the relevant technology to communicate with one another over great distances? Of course not!

The absence of a short "label" in the Bible for what we now call "the Trinity" is hardly any reason to reject the doctrine.

 

[Drew]

Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.

I disagree. In the Old Testament, we have God making promises about how He will return to His people after a time of abandonment. In the book of Luke, Jesus undertakes a final journey to Jerusalem wherein through word and deed, Jesus clearly represents Himself as the Father returning to Zion.

This is an effective claim of co-divinity with the Father.

Of course, if you rig the game - if you decide up front that only terse, technical, declarations of the doctrine of the Trinity are all that counts - then, of course, you may come up empty.

This is where most (all?) non-Trinitarian arguments fail - they do not recognize the narrative structure of the Bible which has Jesus picking up the role of the Father in the overall plot.

 

[handy]

Historian Arthur Weigall notes: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord."—The Paganism in Our Christianity.

Perhaps the word, but hardly the idea.
The word "Trinity" certainly describes a Biblical truth, that our God has indeed revealed Himself as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Elijah674]

The Book of 2 John
Chapter 1

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Elijah here:
Just some material by me on this extremely important subject.

This Inspiration of John is Eternity Inspired & documented. The Books of John are seen scattered all through the New Testament. And he has penned John 1:1-3 that Christ is God. And we know that the Godhead are Immortal! So to have any 'Doctrine of Christ', it must include Eternity! And surely takes in the later created beings of other 'World' of Hebrews 1:1-3 & Hebrews 11:3.

Now, who understands the Doctrine of Christ?? Surely, but few!

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Me again:
Adam was the very first one for Earths beginning! And God spoke to him in verbal language. Got that? At least the 'earth' were ALL of one Language & had direct speech with God when Obedience followed. Gen. 11:1 'And the whole earth was of ONE LANGUAGE, AND [ONE SPEECH.]' And books? who needed books?? Speech?.. words were passed from one to another nearly flawless for these first ones. They were created VERY GOOD, even lived to around 1000 years of age even after sin & before the world flood. And the Doctrine of Christ without law?

The Eternal Covenant of the Godhead is just that! Hebrews 13:20. God does not change, not does Their Covenant that the universe is governed by! God is Love. And the Covenant is the Epistle ('Letter' of 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 & Hebrews 10:15-16) of the Eternal Love of the Godhead to the universe. It is the only portion of the Doctrine of Christ that is directly given to 'mankind'. Isaiah 8:20 is mankind’s total testing of any and all professions! This is all inclusive with the 'Doctrine of Christ. Compare John's Words of 1 John 2:4 for verification!! (emphasis on mankind! See Revelation 11:18-19 & Revelation 22:7-9 & compare Ecclesiastes 3:14)

The two tables of stone governing Eternity is Total freedom when Obeyed. Christ stated an all time truth to the tempting attorney one of Matthew 22:35-40. This is the Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6 & Hebrews 13:20) and Christ's Eternal Covenant Doctrine, PERIOD! 'On these [two] commandments hang all the law and the prophets'

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Me again:

How can one know the Doctrine of Jesus when they deny that He is God? It is not possible! See Matthew 4:4's 'Every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.' This is surely a large requirement into the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST!! And the 2 Timothy 3:16's All Scripture for Doctrine verse! Who was Christ in Eternities time, before His earthly comfirmation birth here on earth? This must be included in John's above & beneath Eternal Inspiration pennmanship!!

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Me again:
This subject requires the Holy Spirit's Leading! Romans 8:14. One best take His 'Striving' advise (Genesis 6:3) rather than to make shipwreck in 'selfs' Vain deceit. Titus 3:9-11. Surely this is His WARNING to us!? There will never be UNITY until mankind can surrender Vain self! OR 'OBEY' the below verses!! See Acts 5:32. Yes, that too is the Doctrine Of Christ!

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

See Rev. 18:4!

 

[Elijah674]

Forum:
GOD IS A SPIRIT. Only ONE that we are told [IS] the HOLY GHOST or AND THE HOLY SPIRIT! Again GOD IS a Spirit!! John 4:24

Christ/God & Father/God HAVE AN IMAGE. (if one BELIEVES the WORD OF GOD with the Holy Spirits Inspiration?? Or 'the Word' as penned as the God/Christ! 2 Peter 1:20-21 & John 1:1-3)

OK: ONLY [[[GOD]] HAS IMMORTALITY! Not any creation on THEIRS! GOD/FATHER GOD/CHRIST GOD/HOLY SPIRIT & OR HOLY GHOST, and these Three have been ETERNALLY 3 Separate individuals. Heb. 13:8

1 John 5:7-8
'For there [ARE THREE] that bear RECORD IN HEAVEN, [THE FATHER], THE [WORD], and the [HOLY GHOST: ] and [THESE THREE ARE ONE.] And there are [THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN EARTH], the [SPIRIT], (if one is Born Again! other/wise His Gen. 6:3's STRIVING is only 'felt' but rejected!) and the water, and the blood: and [THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE].' (UNITY! UNITED FAMILY OF GOD, like we are supposed to be.)

'.. Who is blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords; [WHO ONLY HAS IMMORTALITY], dwelling in the LIGHT WHICH NO MAN CAN APPROACH unto..'

'Now unto the King [[ETERNAL]] [[IMMORTAL]], [[INVISIBLE, the [[ONLY WISE GOD]]..' Again: TWO with an IMAGE as previously stated by this GOD/HOLY/SPIRIT INSPIRATION + the WORD/CHRIST GOD, and all in UNITY as ONE with God the Father as now understood and discribed as Father.

And still one must remember that CHRIST IS THE CENTERPIECE of this Eternal/plan after Adam fell, and He came to be the second Adam, & EARTH which was lost by the first Adam, was to be reclaimed by Christ/man (Perfect/man!) (compare Isa. 42:21)

--Elijah

 

[John Zain]

Aside from some of the errors of the quotes, such as the irrelevance of the word 'Trinity'
not appearing in Scripture, overall they don't prove anything.
I could find just as many quotes from other sources that would say the teaching
(re: the Trinity) is clearly there in the NT.

Who needs quotes from anyone?
There are dozens of Scripture verses which teach that God is a Triune God,
especially the fact that Jesus Christ, the Word (Logos), is God, equal to Father God, etc.
There are fewer verses re: the Holy Spirit.
How can people who do not believe these verses be considered Christians?
That is the question.

P.S. Spiritual revelation by the Holy Spirit is required to see most spiritual Truths
(especially the deeper ones, i.e. the less obvious ones).

 

[Elijah674]

Who needs quotes from anyone?
There are dozens of Scripture verses which teach that God is a Triune God,
especially the fact that Jesus Christ, the Word (Logos), is God, equal to Father God, etc.
There are fewer verses re: the Holy Spirit.
How can people who do not believe these verses be considered Christians?
That is the question.

P.S. Spiritual revelation by the Holy Spirit is required to see most spiritual Truths
(especially the deeper ones, i.e. the less obvious ones).

Very true! Yet we are to teach Matt. 4:4's truth, right??

And in heaven itself the rebellion started. Lucifer was the covering cherub over the [MERCY SEAT.] (Everlasting Gospel Rev. 14:6) Under the Mercy Seat was the Ark of God, where in were and still are their Everlasting Covenant. (10 Commandments) And is this not needed????

And: The GodHead were not in eternity taken by surprise. They knew that their PLAN OF SALVATION would be required to be BROUGHT FORTH and ON TIME!!

OK: Just for the Forum then??
Notice in Psalms 2:7 future tense.. '[I will make the decree]: the [Lord hath said unto *me], THOU ART *MY SON; [THIS *DAY HAVE I *BEGOTTEN THEE].'
Surely that is clear? (but not to all!) And what day in the future is it stated that Christ/Son was begotten??

In Heb. 1:2 we see that .. 'Hath in the last days spoken unto us by His Son, (But notice this!) ... by whom also He [MADE THE WORLDS]: (plural)

and in verse 5?? We see Psalms 2:7 is now past/tense! 'For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, [THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE?]'

So the GodHead were, & always will be the GODHEAD! God the Son as we know Him became God the Son at His conception by the Holy Ghost! See Psalms 139:15-16. And it was the PLAN that had its beginning on 'earth', yet never was 'eternity' with out the known plan. OK??

--Elijah

 

[farouk]

John ch.s 13 - 17 are full of references to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Regarding the Spirit, we also have evidence in Scripture, 'Grieve not the Spirit of God': i.e., He is not a vague force but a real Person Who can be grieved.

 

[D4Christ]

...
especially the fact that Jesus Christ, the Word (Logos), is God, equal to Father God, etc.

How can people who do not believe these verses be considered Christians?
That is the question.

P.S. Spiritual revelation by the Holy Spirit is required to see most spiritual Truths
(especially the deeper ones, i.e. the less obvious ones).

Interesting...you seem to be suggesting that people who do not believe that three persons occcupy one God are not Christians. There are a lot of people who love all three without making them into one being that will be excluded from God's grace if you have your way.

However, please consider many non trinity believers still believe in those precepts the scriptures make clear are necessary for salvation.

Can't a Christian believe the following without having their faith questioned:

• The Father YHWH gave Christ His authority. He is God.
• Christ, who is also divine because he has the essence of God, was also called God by his Father, YHWH. However, scriptures clearly state Christ is our Mediator/High Priest. And he also calls His Father his God and our God.
• Christ who was given all authority (from the Father) will give back All authority to the Father, so that the Father will reign supreme over all things everywhere. ie. Christ will eventually not have All Authority.
• Christ can do nothing without the permission of His Father, so that even in his dvinity he takes a subserviant role to the Father, and even encourages us to pray to his Father and not himself.
• From heaven in Rev. Christ again does not take on the role of God (the Father) by telling John that he will write the name of his God on the victorious. Then he (Christ) will write on them his own new name.
• Christ was sent in His Father's name to do, not his own will, but His Father's will, and the Holy Spirit was sent in Christ name to be our teacher and comforter.

I believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is one with His Father just as he tells us in scripture he is one with us as we should be one with one another. This does not make us one entity but does suggest that we as the church should be united with one mind and purpose, not divided as Satan would like us to be.

The Son is the only One begotten of God and only being said to possess the essecence of God. Yet the Son clearly states repeatedly that the Father is His God and that he is in complete obedience to the Father.

So if the Son, Christ, says there is only one God. And if the Son Christ states that his Father is his God and our God too. And if scriptures clearly state there is One God and one Mediator, Christ, why do we persist to say Father and the Son are the same or equal in power and responsibility?

Saying Christ is divine does not contradict scriptures. However, Christ clearly humbles himself to his Father both on earth and in heaven. Saying he is co-equal to His Father though, seems to fly in the face of everything Christ says that describes his relationship to His Father. You cannot be co-equal and and unequal simultaneously. Yet Christ clearly demonstrates that He is not greater than the One (Father) who sent him.

I really don't care if other Christians dare take on the role to judge me as a Christian or not. But is should be known that not all non trinitarians are the same in that we do not have to take away the divinity of Christ to make our belief work. As separate they are no less powerful then those who want to make them into three in one.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Classik]

God the Father, God the Son God the Holy Spirit I know. I know diddly 'bout other things about the Three. I won't say what I don't know.:bigfrown

 

[Elijah674]

It seems that the Gospel of Christ must be the DOCTRINE of Christ?? And John penned many bottom/line Truths from John - Rev. (+ living the Longest!) If anything need tidying up, he could have been Inspired to do that. And this is from his penned Words!

In Rev, 14:6 we see the basic ETERNAL GOSPEL which surely is the Gospel of Christ, or DOCTRINE OF CHRIST! [Central IMPORTANCE] of looking forward from Adam + looking back from John's Inspired work.

In 2 John he DOCUMENTS..

[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

(most know not that this was Christ/God of 1 Cor. 10:1-4 & the giver of the Eternal Law of God!)

[8] Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

[9] [Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not [[in the doctrine of Christ]], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

(and that is not of importance??)


[10] [[If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine]], receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

If one wants to know this Truth, it must be found in the complete package of [Christ's WORDS!] In Matt. 4:4 He documents to one who has been around here since Adam! And Christ responded to satan from the O.T.

Matt.4

[1] Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

[2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

[3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, [[but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God]].

And that is what Christ said! Peace/meal 'faith' is like going to the wilderness Sanctuary & offer the Required 'lamb' at the altar and then claim I,I,I,I,I BELIEVE LORD! Rom. 8:1 and then go along your marry way back home instead of going on into the Sanctuary to to the lavor washing & then the Bread eating +! (and never you mind your Rom. 8:14 'REQUIREMENT' Lord, of being LED)

And that you'ins is meant to mean that of the Matt. 7 Broadway + Rev. 17:1-5 'g'ospel/less ones who are IN an CHRIST/LESS/FAITH OF DIS/OBEDIENCE!

Anyway, that is how Elijah here see's it!

 

[Danus]

Interesting...you seem to be suggesting that people who do not believe that three persons occcupy one God are not Christians. There are a lot of people who love all three without making them into one being that will be excluded from God's grace if you have your way.

However, please consider many non trinity believers still believe in those precepts the scriptures make clear are necessary for salvation.

Can't a Christian believe the following without having their faith questioned:

• The Father YHWH gave Christ His authority. He is God.
• Christ, who is also divine because he has the essence of God, was also called God by his Father, YHWH. However, scriptures clearly state Christ is our Mediator/High Priest. And he also calls His Father his God and our God.
• Christ who was given all authority (from the Father) will give back All authority to the Father, so that the Father will reign supreme over all things everywhere. ie. Christ will eventually not have All Authority.
• Christ can do nothing without the permission of His Father, so that even in his dvinity he takes a subserviant role to the Father, and even encourages us to pray to his Father and not himself.
• From heaven in Rev. Christ again does not take on the role of God (the Father) by telling John that he will write the name of his God on the victorious. Then he (Christ) will write on them his own new name.
• Christ was sent in His Father's name to do, not his own will, but His Father's will, and the Holy Spirit was sent in Christ name to be our teacher and comforter.

I believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is one with His Father just as he tells us in scripture he is one with us as we should be one with one another. This does not make us one entity but does suggest that we as the church should be united with one mind and purpose, not divided as Satan would like us to be.

The Son is the only One begotten of God and only being said to possess the essecence of God. Yet the Son clearly states repeatedly that the Father is His God and that he is in complete obedience to the Father.

So if the Son, Christ, says there is only one God. And if the Son Christ states that his Father is his God and our God too. And if scriptures clearly state there is One God and one Mediator, Christ, why do we persist to say Father and the Son are the same or equal in power and responsibility?

Saying Christ is divine does not contradict scriptures. However, Christ clearly humbles himself to his Father both on earth and in heaven. Saying he is co-equal to His Father though, seems to fly in the face of everything Christ says that describes his relationship to His Father. You cannot be co-equal and and unequal simultaneously. Yet Christ clearly demonstrates that He is not greater than the One (Father) who sent him.

I really don't care if other Christians dare take on the role to judge me as a Christian or not. But is should be known that not all non trinitarians are the same in that we do not have to take away the divinity of Christ to make our belief work. As separate they are no less powerful then those who want to make them into three in one.

Blessings,
Dee

Dee... why don't you just call yourself a trinitarian? The question is, was Jesus fully man and fully God.?

No one seems to have a problem with the holly spirit, since that aspect of God seems pretty clear. then we have God himself. That's pretty solid, but it's Jesus that people who are non-trinitarian have a hard time with.

To cloud the water even more, If the Trinity is unique to Christianity, and it is, and if Jews, and Muslims do not believe in the Trinity, then how can a Christian not believe in something that the faith of orthodoxy has well established?

Your reconciliation on this matter seems closer to a trinitarian.

 

[D4Christ]

Dee... why don't you just call yourself a trinitarian? The question is, was Jesus fully man and fully God.?

No one seems to have a problem with the holly spirit, since that aspect of God seems pretty clear. then we have God himself. That's pretty solid, but it's Jesus that people who are non-trinitarian have a hard time with.

To cloud the water even more, If the Trinity is unique to Christianity, and it is, and if Jews, and Muslims do not believe in the Trinity, then how can a Christian not believe in something that the faith of orthodoxy has well established?

Your reconciliation on this matter seems closer to a trinitarian.

According to scriptures the only thing required to be a member of the Church is a belief in God's Son and repentance from sin. Therefore, as a member of the Church and a believer in Christ I call myself a Christian. I find no need to further label myself.

As far as whether Christ was fully man and fully God (divine)....I think I answered that question in my orginal post. Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Son is divine and the Father himself calls Christ God. How could the Father possibly begot something from himself that is less than God? That would be like asking a human to give birth to something less than human...not possible.

In other words, YES...the Son is fully God and divine and existed from the beginning of creation with His Father. The world was built thru the Son at the Father's instruction and the Son was later sent into the very world he built to take on human form. This does not negate the fact that the Son never claims to be his own Father and he never equates himself to the Father on earth and after he returns to the Father. The Son clearly states the Father is his God and our God. Scriptures state we are Christ's brothers and sisters.

It seems strange to me that Christ does not claim to be God...scriptures name Christ as our High Priest and mediator....Christ is always in complete obedience to and gives deference to His Father on earth and in heaven...the apostles never thanked a Godhead but always gave thanks to the Father first and then his Son...and yet because some scholars at a later date decided to describe what they could not fully understand in scriptures as Trinity, my Christianity becomes the focus of doubt.

I have no problem with Jesus. But just becasue he shares the dvinity of his Father does not mean he is the same as his Father or is acting in the capacity of God...for Christ himself names who God is and guess what...its not himself. This is no more harder for me to understand then the fact that all humans who share humanity, are not necessarily equal. One human may be president, another a janitor. Just because they are both human I would never say they are co-equal.

I would challenge anyone to tell me how Father, Son and Holy Spirit being separate entities, acting with one purpose, affects the basic beliefs of the Chrisitan faith (as stated in scriptures and not as stated in man-made orthodoxies).

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Danus]

As far as whether Christ was fully man and fully God (divine),,, Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Son is divine and the Father himself calls Christ God. How could the Father possibly begot something from himself that is less than God?
In other words, YES...the Son is fully God and divine and existed from the beginning of creation with His Father. The Son clearly states the Father is his God and our God.

It seems strange to me that Christ does not claim to be God....the apostles never thanked a Godhead but always gave thanks to the Father first and then his Son...and yet because some scholars at a later date decided to describe what they could not fully understand in scriptures as Trinity, my Christianity becomes the focus of doubt.

I have no problem with Jesus. But just becasue he shares the dvinity of his Father does not mean he is the same as his Father or is acting in the capacity of God...for Christ himself names who God is and guess what...its not himself. This is no more harder for me to understand then the fact that all humans who share humanity, are not necessarily equal. One human may be president, another a janitor. Just because they are both human I would never say they are co-equal.

I would challenge anyone to tell me how Father, Son and Holy Spirit being separate entities, acting with one purpose, affects the basic beliefs of the Chrisitan faith (as stated in scriptures and not as stated in man-made orthodoxies).

Blessings,
Dee

Ok, I took out a few of your words to get to the meat. The trinity states that there is one God, in three es·sence : The intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, esp. something abstract, that determines its character.

God the father, God the Son, and God the holly spirit. I don't see you challenging that in your claim to not be a trinitarian.

Are there degrees of non-trinitarians?

 

[Free]

According to scriptures the only thing required to be a member of the Church is a belief in God's Son and repentance from sin.

There is much more to your statement than perhaps you realize. According to M. R. Vincent in Word Studies in the New Testament, "To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title," and the Greek word for 'name' in John 1:12 expresses "the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person." (p 392)

John 1:12, But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (NKJV)

John 3:13-18, 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Clearly there is more to it than merely "believing in Jesus" or believing that he is the Son of God. One must believe in who he is. And we cannot forget Rom 10:9-13:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (NKJV)

Not only is there a confession that 'Jesus is Lord,' Paul applies Joel 2:32 to that confession, where 'Lord' is 'LORD' in the OT, that is YHWH. It must also be said that belief in Jesus's death and physical resurrection is necessary for salvation.

As far as whether Christ was fully man and fully God (divine)....I think I answered that question in my orginal post. Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Son is divine and the Father himself calls Christ God. How could the Father possibly begot something from himself that is less than God? That would be like asking a human to give birth to something less than human...not possible.

In other words, YES...the Son is fully God and divine and existed from the beginning of creation with His Father. The world was built thru the Son at the Father's instruction and the Son was later sent into the very world he built to take on human form. This does not negate the fact that the Son never claims to be his own Father and he never equates himself to the Father on earth and after he returns to the Father. The Son clearly states the Father is his God and our God. Scriptures state we are Christ's brothers and sisters.

But yet Jesus is without beginning, uncreated, and therefore, truly God and co-equal with the Father.

It seems strange to me that Christ does not claim to be God

He does imply it many times, not the least through his vocation.

I have no problem with Jesus. But just becasue he shares the dvinity of his Father does not mean he is the same as his Father or is acting in the capacity of God...for Christ himself names who God is and guess what...its not himself. This is no more harder for me to understand then the fact that all humans who share humanity, are not necessarily equal. One human may be president, another a janitor. Just because they are both human I would never say they are co-equal.

There is a critical error in your analogy. Humans are created in the image of God and as humans, we are all equal. You are describing a difference in function which does not mean an inferiority of nature. So it is with God, as Phil 2:5-8 shows. It must also be said that one cannot share in the divinity of God and yet not be God. The nature of God obviously belongs to God alone.

I would challenge anyone to tell me how Father, Son and Holy Spirit being separate entities, acting with one purpose, affects the basic beliefs of the Chrisitan faith (as stated in scriptures and not as stated in man-made orthodoxies).

It is a basic belief of the Christian faith. You can no more use this argument to disprove the Trinity than I can use it to prove the Trinity.

 

[D4Christ]

Ok, I took out a few of your words to get to the meat. The trinity states that there is one God, in three es·sence : The intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, esp. something abstract, that determines its character.

One God, three essences. So according to your definition, the Father is not God all by himself....he shares that title with Christ and the HS. So, why didn't Christ address this by stating he was also God. Why when describing his relationship to the Father did he say the Father was his God and our God...why not just say he and the HS (that he promised the apostles was coming) were also God?

I don't believe that Father, Son and HS are personalities of, qualities of or characters of God. Imho, God did not dispense his personalities into the world to suggest the nature of his exisitence. God begot a Son (you can do a Word study on begot later) and sent his Son first, then his HS into this world to do a job. Both Son and HS have a job to complete and are in complete obedience to the Father who is God supreme over all. Neither HS or Christ says they are the Father too.

God the father, God the Son, and God the holly spirit. I don't see you challenging that in your claim to not be a trinitarian.

But I have addressed the issue of God the Father, and how the Son veiws himself in relationship to the Father. I have also addressed what scriptures state the role of the HS is. Other than restating your belief in the Trinity you have not addressed my main point which is, how does the belief that the three are separate hurt or change anything about the scriptures?

Are there degrees of non-trinitarians

I don't know. I was a trinity believer like most. Then the HS led me to do a deeper study of the scriptures. I could not understand who was "talking" in the scripture, especially in the OT. But whenever I tried to figure it out thru the lens of the trinity, scriptures made less and less sense. I had to seriously ask myself why I accepted the what I had been told about trinity when the scriptures seemed to suggest another, plainer explanation. I took the scritpures on face value and dropped the pretense of the trinity and discovered.....

• I was not a heretic...the Son is the only way to the Father.
• My belief in the Son and his divinity was stronger than ever.
• Nothing else I believed in changed.

I don't know what else to tell you. I don't disrespect people who hold to the trinty and I don't question their faith either.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Danus]

One God, three essences. So according to your definition, the Father is not God all by himself....he shares that title with Christ and the HS. So, why didn't Christ address this by stating he was also God. Why when describing his relationship to the Father did he say the Father was his God and our God...why not just say he and the HS (that he promised the apostles was coming) were also God?

I don't believe that Father, Son and HS are personalities of, qualities of or characters of God. Imho, God did not dispense his personalities into the world to suggest the nature of his exisitence.

Sure God is God by himself. If God is one then God is God. The definition I gave does not change this, or suggest God is not God.

As for your question: "why didn't Christ address this by stating he was also God?" I would strongly disagree that he did not. I fully identified himself with God, but he made clear he was the son of God also.

Here is something to think about. Muslims, for example, don't believe in the trinity. They do not accept that Christ Jesus was God. They will say that we believe in three God's, and that Christ was a profit sent by God. They make this very clear. That is a non-trinitarian. Jews Also do not believe that Jesus was God. Some call him a great teacher, and some do not. Jews are not trinitarians.

These are examples of non-trinitarians. Then you have people who claim to be Christians who also claim not to be trinitarians. : Again the question is, Who was Jesus? Was Jesus fully God and fully man? I thought you agreed that he was? Was he? If so, why are you asking, "why didn't Christ address this by stating he was also God?"...was he God or not?

 

[D4Christ]

And yet Satan would be just as happy to have some think they are saved when they are not.

Careful. So now I have to believe in 3 in 1 to be saved? I thank God for the HS and literacy every day.

There is much more to your statement than perhaps you realize. According to M. R. Vincent in Word Studies in the New Testament, "To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title," and the Greek word for 'name' in John 1:12 expresses "the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person." (p 392)

John 1:12, But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (NKJV)

John 3:13-18, 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Clearly there is more to it than merely "believing in Jesus" or believing that he is the Son of God. One must believe in who he is. And we cannot forget Rom 10:9-13:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (NKJV)

Not only is there a confession that 'Jesus is Lord,' Paul applies Joel 2:32 to that confession, where 'Lord' is 'LORD' in the OT, that is YHWH. It must also be said that belief in Jesus's death and physical resurrection is necessary for salvation.

And you stated all that to say what? I believe in all of the above and then some...

Heb 1

1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. 3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. 4 This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names.

But yet Jesus is without beginning, uncreated, and therefore, truly God and co-equal with the Father.

I will agree that the Father is without begining or end.

Acts 13:33 (kjv)
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

1 John 5:1 (kjv) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Heb 1:5 (kjv)
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Do with these verse what you have to....

Even if Christ beginning is the same as his Father's where do "we" come off stating that they are co-equal, when Christ and scirptures state he is not. Any authority Christ does have he did not possess on his own, but rather he only possess what His Father gave him. If I am equal to you, then I shouldn't have to wait on you to give me anything.

He does imply it many times, not the least through his vocation.

Let's be clear. Christ has divine authority...that can't be disputed. But where does he imply he is God? And why would he imply to be God and then blantantly state that the Father is his God.

There is a critical error in your analogy. Humans are created in the image of God and as humans, we are all equal. You are describing a difference in function which does not mean an inferiority of nature. So it is with God, as Phil 2:5-8 shows. It must also be said that one cannot share in the divinity of God and yet not be God. The nature of God obviously belongs to God alone.

The nature of God belongs to the Father and the Son. So they are both divine...there is no dispute. But Phil 2 also shows that the Son humbled himself before his Father, so that the Father then elevated his name above all others....not so that we would worship Christ as God but as Lord, to the glory of God the Father (vs 11). I guess that's why 1 Cor 8 states:

But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

Notice is doesn't say 'one God consisting of Father, Son and HS.'

It is a basic belief of the Christian faith. You can no more use this argument to disprove the Trinity than I can use it to prove the Trinity.

It is a basic belief of some Christians. I don't care about proving or disproving Trinity. I will take 1 Cor 8 at face value thank, you. What I do think is unfair is trying to question the faith of those who don't believe in 3 in 1.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[D4Christ]

Here is something to think about. Muslims, for example, don't believe in the trinity. They do not accept that Christ Jesus was God. They will say that we believe in three God's, and that Christ was a profit sent by God. They make this very clear. That is a non-trinitarian. Jews Also do not believe that Jesus was God. Some call him a great teacher, and some do not. Jews are not trinitarians.

You forgot the atheists who laugh at Christians for believing Christ was his own father.

Again the question is, Who was Jesus? Was Jesus fully God and fully man? I thought you agreed that he was? Was he? If so, why are you asking, "why didn't Christ address this by stating he was also God?"...was he God or not?

Yes by the Father's own admission his Son was God. We also know that even though the Son shared divinity with his Father he openly states that his God is not himself but is his Father. So even though Christ could hold the title of "God" he does not. That's why scriptures state there is one God the Father. Can you really dispute this? Or were the scholars too slow to realize they should have written there is only One God, the Father and his Son and his HS? If they listed all three there would really be no discussion to be had. But they don't.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[John Zain]

Interesting...you seem to be suggesting that people who do not believe that three persons occcupy one God are not Christians. There are a lot of people who love all three without making them into one being that will be excluded from God's grace if you have your way.

Jesus claimed to be the great “I AM” which is God’s name “forever”... see Exodus 3:14-15:
"If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24),
and also ...
John 4:26, John 8:28, John 8:58, John 13:19, John 18:6, John 18:8.
In the original Greek, there is no “he” after “I AM” in any of the seven (7) verses above!

Jesus hints that He is the great “I AM” in these verses:
John 6:35, John 6:51, John 8:12, John 10:7, John 10:11, John 11:25, John 14:6, John 15:1.