The Two Witnesses are...Many Witnesses

[whitestone]

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Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The two witnesses are two olive trees and two candlesticks who are "clothed in sackcloth," mourning clothes. They mourn for the return of Christ. The two groups mentioned could mean that the many witnesses are both “olive trees†and “candlesticks†or…that they are two separate groups. Either way…the two represent many.

What are Biblical candlesticks and olive trees?
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Revelation 1:12-13,20 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. (20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Stars are angels....Candlesticks are churches. Of the seven [candlestick/churches] mentioned there were two that Christ approved of [Rev.2:8-10, 3:7-12]....they are the "two candlesticks," that are two of the two witnesses....Smyrna and Philadelphia.



More information on their identity is found in…..

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Zechariah 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

We are to WAKE UP....See and Hear the depth of the Word.
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4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

Seven lamps = Seven candlesticks "Lamps is used figuratively for progeny [BLB] as in [1 Kings 11:36]." The seven lamps would be seven groups of children of God...the seven churches of Revelation who are...the seven candlesticks.

Seven pipes = Seven angels/stars of the seven churches
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4:3-6 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

The two olive trees are guided by the Holy Spirit.
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4:11-14 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The same witnesses shown in....


Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.




The two questions asked are 1. What are the two olive trees? 2. What are the two olive branches? The answer was “these are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord.†Both olive trees and the two branches are the two anointed ones.

Notice that the two witnesses are “two olive trees AND two candlesticks,†however in Zechariah the “candlesticks†were not mentioned by name. They are, I believe…the “two olive branches,†that receive the “golden oil†and then “empty the golden oil out of themselves†as they teach…bringing forth fruit:
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John 15:4-5 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing.

Biblically we are shown that the candlesticks are symbolic of churches…what are the olive trees?
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Romans 11:13-17 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

11:24-25 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The olive trees are the wild and natural olive....Israel and Gentiles. The two witnesses are the two spiritual churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna and they consist of both Israel and Gentile. There are many "two" witnesses!



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[Tri Unity]

The olive trees are the wild and natural olive....Israel and Gentiles. The two witnesses are the two spiritual churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna and they consist of both Israel and Gentile. There are many "two" witnesses!

That's a bit of a stretch. Why do they stand beside the 7 candlesticks? Philadephia and Smyrna are part of the 7 candlesticks. How can they be seperate to them (numerically) and be them at the same time? Smyrna is not needed to be "spiritual" just because they are not told to repent. They are martryed - they are not going to be around at the end-time to repent. The other churches are said to be here when Christ returns; that is why they are told to repent. Philadelphia is the only exception.

 

[whitestone]

That's a bit of a stretch. Why do they stand beside the 7 candlesticks? Philadephia and Smyrna are part of the 7 candlesticks. How can they be seperate to them (numerically) and be them at the same time? Smyrna is not needed to be "spiritual" just because they are not told to repent. They are martryed - they are not going to be around at the end-time to repent. The other churches are said to be here when Christ returns; that is why they are told to repent. Philadelphia is the only exception.

The two candlesticks don't stand beside the seven candlesticks but rather are two of the seven churches that stand beside...."These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."




Both Smyrna and Philadelphia are the "exception" from their brother churches. They are those standing by the God of the earth and their congregations are both Israel and Gentile. Olive trees and candlesticks....two witnesses.





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[Tri Unity]

The two candlesticks don't stand beside the seven candlesticks but rather are two of the seven churches that stand beside...."These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Both Smyrna and Philadelphia are the "exception" from their brother churches. They are those standing by the God of the earth and their congregations are both Israel and Gentile. Olive trees and candlesticks....two witnesses.

These ones are clearly outside and distinct to the seven candlesticks:

I asked the messenger, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the menorah?†(Zechariah 4:11)

 

[whitestone]

These ones are clearly outside and distinct to the seven candlesticks:

I asked the messenger, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the menorah?†(Zechariah 4:11)

Those are the "olive trees" TriUnity...not the candlesticks. The olive trees stand to the right and left of "the candlestick," not...candlesticks. The golden candlestick is symbolic of Christ while the seven candlesticks of Revelation are churches...two of whom are the witnesses.






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[jasoncran]

since when was the church ever represented by the menorah? the candlestick is a menorah not some gentile wedding version based on that idea. sheesh.

 

[reba]

Olive trees some how i am rememberig them to be representative of Holy Spirit.

Oil poured from a jar or bottle would run out... The oil from a tree speaks of something like perpetual, flowing,

 

[Tri Unity]

Those are the "olive trees" TriUnity...not the candlesticks. The olive trees stand to the right and left of "the candlestick," not...candlesticks. The golden candlestick is symbolic of Christ while the seven candlesticks of Revelation are churches...two of whom are the witnesses.

The two olive trees are on the right and left side of the menorah. They cannot be the menorah (or be two of the candlestick) and be on the right and left side of the menorah simultaneously. They are clearly distinct from the seven candlesticks (7 churches), so they cannot be two of the seven churches.

You have come up with a theory but not read the passages properly. Good theory though.

 

[Tri Unity]

Olive trees some how i am rememberig them to be representative of Holy Spirit.

Oil poured from a jar or bottle would run out... The oil from a tree speaks of something like perpetual, flowing,

Yes, it is similar to a perpetual flowing...

"I have seen, and behold a candlestick all of gold, and its bowl upon it, and seven lamps upon it, and seven oil funnels to the lamps upon it: and two olive-trees above it, one on the right of the bowl, and one on the left." (Zech 4:2)

Here the seven lamps (seven churches) are not the two olive trees. The two olive trees stand beside the seven lamps (seven churches).

"What are the two branches of the olive-trees that are by the side of the two golden pipes that pour into and communicate with the golden oil funnels?" (Zech 4:12)

These two feed oil into the seven churches. This oil is the oil of the 10 virgins depicted in Matthew 25. The oil is depicted as the Holy Spirit guiding them continually. The two olives are commissioned by the Holy Spirit to feed (oil) the seven churches. The virgins (churches) will receive their guidance from these alone at the end-times. These two olives are also called the two witnesses. The confusion (above) comes in Revelation 11:4 where they are also called "two lampstands", or two lights. These are not two of the seven, but they are additional to the seven.

"And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev 11:3)

The message of these two witnesses is in sackcloth, or a message of repentance. Their ministry is for 3.5 years, the duration of the end-time persecution (Rev 13:5).

"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." (Rev 11:6)

These plagues are like those of Moses and Aaron. The plagues are those of the trumpets of Revelation, which will come about by the ministry of these two whom "all power is given."

Interesting times ahead!

 

[jasoncran]

Olive trees some how i am rememberig them to be representative of Holy Spirit.

Oil poured from a jar or bottle would run out... The oil from a tree speaks of something like perpetual, flowing,

yes that is correct the menorah would be burning the ifinite amount of olive oil and btw olive oil is what the hebrews used in their candles.that is what makes chanukah a miracle. it takes 8 days to make the oil. and the shummah lasted 8 days so the temple could be purified.

 

[whitestone]

Olive trees some how i am rememberig them to be representative of Holy Spirit.

Oil poured from a jar or bottle would run out... The oil from a tree speaks of something like perpetual, flowing,

I agree Reba.

Biblical trees are symbolic of people...olive, fig, palm etc....all people with various designations/types/destinies.

Olive oil is used to anoint. The "two witnesses/two prophets" of [Revelation 11] are the "two anointed ones," of [Zechariah 4:14]. They are anointed with olive oil...the Holy Spirit so they "testify/empty the golden oil out of themselves" to all that will hear them.

Exodus 30:30-32 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto Me in the priest's office. And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, This shall be an holy anointing oil unto Me throughout your generations. Upon man's flesh shall it not be poured, neither shall ye make any other like it, after the composition of it: it is holy, and it shall be holy unto you.


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Those that hear their testimony are those with eyes to see and ears to hear. They are open to spiritual understanding. Those still flesh/carnal will not receive the testimony because...they are yet carnal. As shown above man is not to "make any other like it." And yet, man does and with it deceives God's children.

 

[whitestone]

The two olive trees are on the right and left side of the menorah. They cannot be the menorah (or be two of the candlestick) and be on the right and left side of the menorah simultaneously. They are clearly distinct from the seven candlesticks (7 churches), so they cannot be two of the seven churches.

You have come up with a theory but not read the passages properly. Good theory though.

I didn't understand what you were seeing TriUnity...thank you for sticking with it for it's making me look deeper. The difference in our thoughts, I believe, is the candlestick and/or menorah.


First, the olive trees are said to be "one on the left and one on the right," [Zechariah 4:3] so they are not on the right and left simultaneously.



The menorah would be one object consisting of "seven or nine lights" [dictionary]. Do the "two olive trees" under discussion stand before the Menorah or before One Candlestick or are they one and the same?

Exodus 25:31 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.
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The branches and bowls are also gold but they are not the candlestick.

25:32-34 And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side: Three bowls made like unto almonds, with a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, with a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick. And in the candlesticks shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their knops and their flowers.

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The "six branches" of the candlestick I believe are the "candlesticks" coming from the candlestick. They are candlesticks but they are not The Candlestick.


In Revelation and Zechariah the reference isn't to all the candlesticks but rather to "a candlestick" or "the candlestick."

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
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The "one golden candlestick" stands "in the midst of the seven candlesticks." They are from Him but they are not Him for He is "The God of the earth."

11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
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You wrote, "They are clearly distinct from the seven candlesticks (7 churches), so they cannot be two of the seven churches." That isn't what I'm seeing....

Zechariah 4:2-3 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
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To my eyes, of the seven lamps/candlesticks "thereon...upon the top...upon the side of the bowl," which are the seven churches....two of them are Smyrna and Philadelphia...the congregation of whom are Israelites and Gentiles...the two witnesses.



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[Tri Unity]

I didn't understand what you were seeing TriUnity...thank you for sticking with it for it's making me look deeper. The difference in our thoughts, I believe, is the candlestick and/or menorah.

You have some good points and I very much respect the effort you are going to to understand.

Tri

 

[whitestone]

You have some good points and I very much respect the effort you are going to to understand.

Tri

LOL. Well that's about the nicest way anyone has ever disagreed with my posts.

Thank you for your very respectful manner. It is appreciated.



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[reba]

You have some good points and I very much respect the effort you are going to to understand.

Tri

LOL. Well that's about the nicest way anyone has ever disagreed with my posts.

Thank you for your very respectful manner. It is appreciated.



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I knew it could be done i knew it! Moding is not fun very often thanks for the smiles....

 

[Tri Unity]

LOL. Well that's about the nicest way anyone has ever disagreed with my posts.

I hope I don't destroy reba's bliss...

I don't think I got your explanation of the identity of the seven churches... who are Smyrna and Philadelphia, and who are the other 5 churches?

 

[whitestone]

I hope I don't destroy reba's bliss...

I don't think I got your explanation of the identity of the seven churches... who are Smyrna and Philadelphia, and who are the other 5 churches?

They are "the seven churches which are in Asia." [Rev.1:4] And they are "the seven golden candlesticks" [1:12] And "in the midst of the seven...one like unto the Son of man." [1:13]


The Biblical number seven speaks of spiritual perfection so the seven churches are symbolic, I believe, of the perfect number of churches in the world. They and the deeds they are associated with as detailed in Revelation represent all Christian churches for it is Christ that "who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks." [2:1]

The seven are....church of Ephesus [2:1,]church in Smyrna [2:8,] church in Pergamos [2:12], church in Thyatira [2:18], church in Sardis [3:1], church in Philadelphia [3:7], church of the Laodiceans [3:14].

As in all gatherings, congregations, forums...there are those that are in Christ, those that believe they are in Christ and those that try to keep others from being in Christ....all within the same house. However, there were two of the above churches as a whole that He approved of. They both taught the same thing and that was to offer the Key of David.

Tri....discussion of the two witnesses has never taken this turn before. It has always been..."oh but two is written so it is two literal entities and if it was any different God would have written it that way." That is usually how the discussion goes so this has been a great pleasure. Thank you for raising new questions.



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