THE UNFORGIVEN SIN

[Gregg T]

When He took our sins upon Him, it separated Him from the Father, which is why He cried out "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me". But after His death, because He bore the sins without having done them, God raised Him from the dead - and did not leave His soul in Sheol.

Psa 16:10
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption.

He did not 'leave His soul in Sheol' as you say because the Father did "not abandon" His soul to Sheol for any length of time according to the verse you sited.

So neither His spirit or soul was separated from the Father; but only His body of flesh.

 

[dianegcook]

Let us see if we are kinda on the same path.

The kingdom of God is inside us. When is it in us? Evidently it is not in us at the time of Repentance (although some think it is).

Some think it is in us at salvation belief, although this scripture might help us understand.
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Christ baptizes in Holy Spirit and fire. I really do not fit into a complete Pentecostal or Charismatic mold / box.

The OP scripture brings us to this discussion. My beliefs do not force the issues.

We do not fear him who can destroy the body, but we fear:
Matthew 10:28 KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Holy Spirit must be in you to do this testimony stuff. No wheelbarrow of commentaries will get you through a sudden need.

eddif

Yes, the Spirit should be in you, to talk through you, just like the day of Pentecost, everyone understood it, in their own language and dialect, no need for an interpreter.
All will understand it.
He will pour out His Spirit on the latter days...

 

[Nathan]

Hear, O Nathan . . . the LORD is our God, the LORD is One.

How can the LORD be divided against Himself?

Perhaps the physical body of LORD Jesus Christ was separated from the Son of God? Yes, His physical body.

Thank You. I'll admit, that did make me chuckle.

1Ti 3:16
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:
He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit,
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

Why/how the Son of God would take on human form, walk among sinful man, and take on mankind's sin - is a great mystery. We just know it happened.

Separated in just physical form? So if He only took the sin of flesh, not the sin of the soul, then we would only be declared righteous before God in our flesh - and still stand before God in judgement for the sin of our soul. Unless, of course, you were to believe that the soul of man is not sinful, just his flesh is?

Jesus taking on sin did not mean that God was divided against Himself. If you think about it, how could God sacrifice Himself? Rather, God the Father placed on Christ the sin of the world. He put in onto His Son, in order to show us His love. God is not into 'trickery' so as to try and fool us that He only put the sin of mankind onto the flesh of His Son - no, He put the full measure of His wrath onto His Son. Jesus cried out that He had been forsaken - I am sure that He knew the difference between His flesh and Himself.

One thing that gives us no doubt is that His soul went to Sheol while His body was in the grave.

Psa 16:10
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption.

Sheol is the place of sinners. If Jesus had not been separated from God, then He would not have gone there. He would have merely 'waited' for the days to pass before His body was raised from the grave. However, in order to proclaim to those there the Gospel, He did in fact go there.

In Luke 16 we see that there is a great chasm fixed between the two places where souls go when their bodies die. Jesus went to the "bad" place, not the "good" one. God the Father did not leave His soul there, but rather made Him alive.

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

So we see, it was sin that separated the Son from the Father, but grace that brought Him back - just as it does us also. Jesus was the forerunner of this to show us the way to God.

 

[dianegcook]

This I know for the Bible tells me so.

Mar 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Jesus had the sin of the world placed on Him.

Heb 9:28
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Sin separates us from God.

Isa 59:2
but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear.

1Pe 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

When He took our sins upon Him, it separated Him from the Father, which is why He cried out "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me". But after His death, because He bore the sins without having done them, God raised Him from the dead - and did not leave His soul in Sheol.

Psa 16:10
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption.

When Jesus breathed out His Spirit, He was placing it into the hands of God the Father - knowing that God would raise Him from the dead. If Jesus had not took on the sins of the world, completely, then there would be no complete forgiveness of sins. But because He was obedient, unto death, His obedience was rewarded by God with raising Him from the dead - and placing Him as the firstborn among many - among all who would come to God through Him.

Nathan
I think God did not forsake Him.
Jesus was quoting scriptures, teaching them from the cross.
Psa.22:1-31
Verse 1
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me? Why art thou so far from helping Me, and from the words of My roaring...
All they that see Me laugh Me to scorn, they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
He trusted on the Lord that He would deliver Him, let Him deliver Him, seeing He delighted in Him...
They gaped upon Me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint, My heart is like wax, it is melted in the midst of My bowels....
For dogs have encompassed Me, the assembly of the wicked have in closed Me,
They pierced My hands and My feet.
I may tell all My bones, they look and stare upon Me.
They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture....
For He hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, NEITHER HATH HE HID HIS FACE FROM HIM, BUT WHEN HE CRIED UNTO HIM, HE HEARD.

A seed shall serve Him, it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation, (final)
They shall come, and declare His righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that He hath done this.(it is finished)

 

[Nathan]

I am getting a funny feeling that there is some Gnostic beliefs coming up here. I have to do some work, but I'll be back with some more information so we can see that separating Jesus death into the physical realm, while leaving out the spiritual realm, is not what God would have us to do.

 

[Nathan]

He did not 'leave His soul in Sheol' as you say because the Father did "not abandon" His soul to Sheol for any length of time according to the verse you sited.

So neither His spirit or soul was separated from the Father; but only His body of flesh.

Ok, so the passage that is a prophecy of His death, comes from Psalm 16

Psa 16:10
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption

In this we see His body was in the grave, but did not see corruption by being raised 3 days after death. We also see that His soul did go to Sheol, just not abandoned there by God.

The term "abandon" means to not leave one in a state in which it is in. Meaning, Jesus did indeed go there - He was just not left there. To say He did not go there would be to deny the passage in its entirety.

We also read of why(as much as we can understand) it happened.

Heb 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Christ "tasted" death for everyone. Now, if He only tasted physical death, then that means we still have no reconciliation toward God spiritually - only in the physical sense. But we know this is not true. We know that we are reconciled to God spiritually, therefore, we know that Christ tasted this death for us also.

Heb 2:17
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

This is the mystery. The thing we know of, but not the details of how. Christ was made like us in EVERY respect. This is how He can be our Priest before God. If it was just physically that He was made like us, then He would only be able to reconcile us to God physically.

Gnostic belief separates the physical from the spiritual. It states that one does not effect the other. It says the physical can be bad, but the spiritual can be good. It is also the line of thinking that believes that Christ 'appeared' physical, but that He was only spiritual(hence not actually ever really "dying").

Heb 2:14
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

He came, was manifested, to us in order to show us that He has power over death. That is why He came physically, and died completely, and was raised from the dead by God the Father. If Christ only died physically, then He only destroyed the physical nature of death. However, because He was completely cut off from the Father, He destroyed the power of death in the spiritual sense as well as the physical. The two cannot be separated.

Heb 9:11-14
But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

If Christ death/sacrifice was merely on a physical plane, then He would be no more better than the priests who sacrificed for the sins of the people. However, He was the complete and perfect sacrifice(physical/spiritual), an 'eternal' one(physical flesh is not eternal), and through His eternal Spirit He offered Himself up without blemish.

It was not just a physical sacrifice to God, but a perfect Spiritual one - the eternal perfection being put to death(separated from life) so that those who draw near to God through Him will also have this eternal life, because of His perfect sacrifice. If it was just physical, then we would only be eternally 'physically' perfected through Christ. That is not the case.

The book of Hebrews details what the sacrifice of Christ accomplished for us. And it is only once we get past the physical realm of seeing and hearing with our physical eyes and ears, will we see that what Christ did was an eternal thing.

Lets just think real basic for a moment. What is it to God for Christ to be only physically dead? Christ could raise dead bodies from the grave even after they had started to decay. A mere physical body of death is nothing to an eternal God. It is through the anguish and utter unthinkable act of a Father placing His Son on an alter, putting Him to death as in not having life, to show us how much He loves us.

It was not to show how much He loved His Son - Christ being completely dead was to show us how much God loves us. To kill(body and soul) His perfect Son who had done no wrong. To only say that it was a death of flesh is to completely miss the point God was making to us.

 

[gr8grace3]

reba, my understanding is that the word “Eternal” designates God’s life without beginning or end.

The very same word in Greek is everlasting in that we are given God’s own life “eternal” from the moment we believe “Everlasting,” or from that moment on.

Jn 3:16 everlasting G166 life. G2222
Act 13:48 eternal G166 life G2222
Rom 6:23 eternal G166 life G2222
1Jn 5:11 eternal G166 life G2222

The KJV translates Strong's G166 in the following manner: eternal (42x), everlasting (25x), the world began (with G5550) (2x), since the world began (with G5550) (1x), for ever (1x).

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2. without beginning

3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

 

[Nathan]

eternal is like a circle do we have eternal life.. life with out beginning or end.

You know, I just saw this because of the post above. I've been so busy that it went right past view.

I like how you put things. Sometimes the most complex things can be said with few words. Your absolutely correct. Eternal is without beginning or end.

All to often we look at it as having a beginning, then no end. It's one of those puzzle pieces that often are crammed into places they don't fit. When we see eternal life as only Gods life(only He is eternal) then we see how we have it.

John 5:21 (ESV) 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

John 5:26 (ESV) 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

 

[Gregg T]

Ok, so the passage that is a prophecy of His death, comes from Psalm 16

Psa 16:10
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption

In this we see His body was in the grave, but did not see corruption by being raised 3 days after death. We also see that His soul did go to Sheol, just not abandoned there by God.

The term "abandon" means to not leave one in a state in which it is in. Meaning, Jesus did indeed go there - He was just not left there. To say He did not go there would be to deny the passage in its entirety.

We also read of why(as much as we can understand) it happened.

Heb 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Christ "tasted" death for everyone. Now, if He only tasted physical death, then that means we still have no reconciliation toward God spiritually - only in the physical sense. But we know this is not true. We know that we are reconciled to God spiritually, therefore, we know that Christ tasted this death for us also.

Heb 2:17
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

This is the mystery. The thing we know of, but not the details of how. Christ was made like us in EVERY respect. This is how He can be our Priest before God. If it was just physically that He was made like us, then He would only be able to reconcile us to God physically.

Gnostic belief separates the physical from the spiritual. It states that one does not effect the other. It says the physical can be bad, but the spiritual can be good. It is also the line of thinking that believes that Christ 'appeared' physical, but that He was only spiritual(hence not actually ever really "dying").

Heb 2:14
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

He came, was manifested, to us in order to show us that He has power over death. That is why He came physically, and died completely, and was raised from the dead by God the Father. If Christ only died physically, then He only destroyed the physical nature of death. However, because He was completely cut off from the Father, He destroyed the power of death in the spiritual sense as well as the physical. The two cannot be separated.

Heb 9:11-14
But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

If Christ death/sacrifice was merely on a physical plane, then He would be no more better than the priests who sacrificed for the sins of the people. However, He was the complete and perfect sacrifice(physical/spiritual), an 'eternal' one(physical flesh is not eternal), and through His eternal Spirit He offered Himself up without blemish.

It was not just a physical sacrifice to God, but a perfect Spiritual one - the eternal perfection being put to death(separated from life) so that those who draw near to God through Him will also have this eternal life, because of His perfect sacrifice. If it was just physical, then we would only be eternally 'physically' perfected through Christ. That is not the case.

The book of Hebrews details what the sacrifice of Christ accomplished for us. And it is only once we get past the physical realm of seeing and hearing with our physical eyes and ears, will we see that what Christ did was an eternal thing.

Lets just think real basic for a moment. What is it to God for Christ to be only physically dead? Christ could raise dead bodies from the grave even after they had started to decay. A mere physical body of death is nothing to an eternal God. It is through the anguish and utter unthinkable act of a Father placing His Son on an alter, putting Him to death as in not having life, to show us how much He loves us.

It was not to show how much He loved His Son - Christ being completely dead was to show us how much God loves us. To kill(body and soul) His perfect Son who had done no wrong. To only say that it was a death of flesh is to completely miss the point God was making to us.

To define what 'completely dead' means, well, I am not sure and do not want to be philosophical about it. But I know for sure that His flesh died after He "bore our sins in His body on the cross" (1 Pet 2:24).

That might be a good topic for a separate forum.

- - -

Regarding "will not abandon My soul in Sheol" (Acts 2:27):
The Greek says "οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου"

The word εἰς is literally translated "into", and means motion into or toward another place or thing. Jesus' soull was not abandoned into sheol, meaning that it remained outside of it.

Had the Spirit wanted to indicate Jesus' soul was in Sheol, but wouldn't be left there, the He might have used the Gk word ἐν, like water "in" a glass, which implies a state of rest relationally between 'into' and 'out of'. If His soul were in sheol, then it might could be abandoned there.

But the Greek text literally says 'will not adandon My soul into Hades'. His soul will not go into Hades from where it is.

 

[Gregg T]

Thank You. I'll admit, that did make me chuckle.

1Ti 3:16
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:
He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit,
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

Why/how the Son of God would take on human form, walk among sinful man, and take on mankind's sin - is a great mystery. We just know it happened.

Separated in just physical form? So if He only took the sin of flesh, not the sin of the soul, then we would only be declared righteous before God in our flesh - and still stand before God in judgement for the sin of our soul. Unless, of course, you were to believe that the soul of man is not sinful, just his flesh is?

Jesus taking on sin did not mean that God was divided against Himself. If you think about it, how could God sacrifice Himself? Rather, God the Father placed on Christ the sin of the world. He put in onto His Son, in order to show us His love. God is not into 'trickery' so as to try and fool us that He only put the sin of mankind onto the flesh of His Son - no, He put the full measure of His wrath onto His Son. Jesus cried out that He had been forsaken - I am sure that He knew the difference between His flesh and Himself.

One thing that gives us no doubt is that His soul went to Sheol while His body was in the grave.

Psa 16:10
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption.

Sheol is the place of sinners. If Jesus had not been separated from God, then He would not have gone there. He would have merely 'waited' for the days to pass before His body was raised from the grave. However, in order to proclaim to those there the Gospel, He did in fact go there.

In Luke 16 we see that there is a great chasm fixed between the two places where souls go when their bodies die. Jesus went to the "bad" place, not the "good" one. God the Father did not leave His soul there, but rather made Him alive.

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

So we see, it was sin that separated the Son from the Father, but grace that brought Him back - just as it does us also. Jesus was the forerunner of this to show us the way to God.

If sheol was a place for sinners as you say, then know that Christ was not a sinner. He took our sin upon Himself, our sins were pressed upon Him.

He did suffer for all our sins, those in the flesh and in the heart; and His soul did indeed suffer also, as did His body, according to Isa 55 and Ps 22.

My interpretation of 1 Pet 3:19 differs, that proclaiming to souls in prison does not necessarily mean preaching the Gospel in Hades or Sheol. It means He, the Son of God in the Spirit, preached to the men while they lived during the days of Noah; many of whose souls are now in prison.

Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

 

[Nathan]

To define what 'completely dead' means, well, I am not sure and do not want to be philosophical about it. But I know for sure that His flesh died after He "bore our sins in His body on the cross" (1 Pet 2:24).

That might be a good topic for a separate forum.

- - -

Regarding "will not abandon My soul in Sheol" (Acts 2:27):
The Greek says "οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου"

The word εἰς is literally translated "into", and means motion into or toward another place or thing. Jesus' soull was not abandoned into sheol, meaning that it remained outside of it.

Had the Spirit wanted to indicate Jesus' soul was in Sheol, but wouldn't be left there, the He might have used the Gk word ἐν, like water "in" a glass, which implies a state of rest relationally between 'into' and 'out of'. If His soul were in sheol, then it might could be abandoned there.

But the Greek text literally says 'will not adandon My soul into Hades'. His soul will not go into Hades from where it is.

If sheol was a place for sinners as you say, then know that Christ was not a sinner. He took our sin upon Himself, our sins were pressed upon Him.

He did suffer for all our sins, those in the flesh and in the heart; and His soul did indeed suffer also, as did His body, according to Isa 55 and Ps 22.

My interpretation of 1 Pet 3:19 differs, that proclaiming to souls in prison does not necessarily mean preaching the Gospel in Hades or Sheol. It means He, the Son of God in the Spirit, preached to the men while they lived during the days of Noah; many of whose souls are now in prison.

Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

I have to say, I am without understanding as to why you would divide the body/soul to this extent. Regardless, I think we can still come to understanding.

The word that you listed there "into" should not be defined apart from what it was speaking of. It was said that His soul would not be abandoned "into" there. So we have to know first what "abandoned" means.

eng-kat-al-i'-po; from G1722 and G2641; to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:—forsake, leave.

With the above in mind, we then turn to the preposition "into" and realize that it is defining a period of time. It is not stating that His soul would not be there, it is stating His soul would not be left there. We know this because you cannot leave something(or someone) behind, let remain, or forsake in a place they were never at.

So the "into" is speaking of time. Sheol is a place of fixed 'residence' where the souls of 'sinners' go to wait for the judgement. The prophecy is saying that God would not "leave" Jesus' soul "in"(into) that place for the time that the others have to be there. We know this specifically because the same idea/reference of time is attributed to the fact God would not let His body see corruption. Its all about a demarcation of time. Again, the "into" means not "into" the time that is allotted for those who are there.

Now, as far as the 'sinners', please do not insinuate that I think Christ was a sinner. That is very low. I was using that word to describe the place, not Christ. Christ had the sin of the entire world on Him - so while He was not a sinner, He took the FULL punishment of God for sin.

If God's punishment on mankind for sin does not include Sheol, then there is an argument to be made that Christ did not go there. However, if a human goes to Sheol because of sin, then Christ was there - because He took the FULL and COMPLETE punishment of God for sin.

Suffering is completely different than receiving God's punishment. Believers in Christ suffer, but they do not receive God's punishment for sin.

Isa 53:10-12
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Christ's soul died. There is no way getting around that. It was not just His flesh, it was the complete person(body and soul) that died. This is why it is always said that God(the Father) raised Jesus from the dead. He was dead. He had to be raised to life.

 

[Gregg T]

I have to say, I am without understanding as to why you would divide the body/soul to this extent. Regardless, I think we can still come to understanding.

The word that you listed there "into" should not be defined apart from what it was speaking of. It was said that His soul would not be abandoned "into" there. So we have to know first what "abandoned" means.

eng-kat-al-i'-po; from G1722 and G2641; to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:—forsake, leave.

With the above in mind, we then turn to the preposition "into" and realize that it is defining a period of time. It is not stating that His soul would not be there, it is stating His soul would not be left there. We know this because you cannot leave something(or someone) behind, let remain, or forsake in a place they were never at.

So the "into" is speaking of time. Sheol is a place of fixed 'residence' where the souls of 'sinners' go to wait for the judgement. The prophecy is saying that God would not "leave" Jesus' soul "in"(into) that place for the time that the others have to be there. We know this specifically because the same idea/reference of time is attributed to the fact God would not let His body see corruption. Its all about a demarcation of time. Again, the "into" means not "into" the time that is allotted for those who are there.

Now, as far as the 'sinners', please do not insinuate that I think Christ was a sinner. That is very low. I was using that word to describe the place, not Christ. Christ had the sin of the entire world on Him - so while He was not a sinner, He took the FULL punishment of God for sin.

If God's punishment on mankind for sin does not include Sheol, then there is an argument to be made that Christ did not go there. However, if a human goes to Sheol because of sin, then Christ was there - because He took the FULL and COMPLETE punishment of God for sin.

Suffering is completely different than receiving God's punishment. Believers in Christ suffer, but they do not receive God's punishment for sin.

Isa 53:10-12
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Christ's soul died. There is no way getting around that. It was not just His flesh, it was the complete person(body and soul) that died. This is why it is always said that God(the Father) raised Jesus from the dead. He was dead. He had to be raised to life.

I think we are off-topic, but let me say one last thing on this matter.

Lk 23:46 states Jesus commended His spirit into the Father's hand. Is His spirit part of His complete person? Yes, it is. But, His spirit went to the Father, while you say His complete person died and went to sheol. I think your thoughtrs are divided, and self-refuting.

 

[Nathan]

I think we are off-topic, but let me say one last thing on this matter.

Lk 23:46 states Jesus commended His spirit into the Father's hand. Is His spirit part of His complete person? Yes, it is. But, His spirit went to the Father, while you say His complete person died and went to sheol. I think your thoughtrs are divided, and self-refuting.

Its really not too far off topic.

Yes, Jesus did commend His Spirit into the Fathers hand. It does not say that His soul went at that point to the Father though. The thoughts are not divided or self refuting when we rightly see what was said by Christ.

Think of it this way. The term "its in your hands now" is a term we use to say that we trust someone with whatever it is we are doing. It does not mean we are literally putting the object into the hands of the person.

Jesus was making the statement that He trusted His Father with His life - completely - knowing that His Father would not leave Him in Sheol, but bring Him back. Jesus' life was completely in the Fathers hand at that point.

Act 2:24
God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

It is obvious that Peter understood this clearly. Jesus was dead, in every way shape and form, and God raised Him up from that. It was not just a flesh death that Christ endured - it was total death in which separation from God takes place. It is so crucial to understand this to see the depth of love God has for us.

Again, in order to say that Christ only died physically - a fleshly body - means that He only took the justice of God for sin on our fleshly bodies. We know this is not true, because we know that because His soul took the justice of God, we will never face the death of our soul if we are in Christ. His death ransomed our death.

 

[Gregg T]

Its really not too far off topic.

Yes, Jesus did commend His Spirit into the Fathers hand. It does not say that His soul went at that point to the Father though. The thoughts are not divided or self refuting when we rightly see what was said by Christ.

Think of it this way. The term "its in your hands now" is a term we use to say that we trust someone with whatever it is we are doing. It does not mean we are literally putting the object into the hands of the person.

Jesus was making the statement that He trusted His Father with His life - completely - knowing that His Father would not leave Him in Sheol, but bring Him back. Jesus' life was completely in the Fathers hand at that point.

Act 2:24
God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

It is obvious that Peter understood this clearly. Jesus was dead, in every way shape and form, and God raised Him up from that. It was not just a flesh death that Christ endured - it was total death in which separation from God takes place. It is so crucial to understand this to see the depth of love God has for us.

Again, in order to say that Christ only died physically - a fleshly body - means that He only took the justice of God for sin on our fleshly bodies. We know this is not true, because we know that because His soul took the justice of God, we will never face the death of our soul if we are in Christ. His death ransomed our death.

I am not saying Jesus only died physically.
I am saying Jesus' body died, from which His soul and spirit was separated, and that His body was placed in a grave.

I do not believe Jesus' soul or spirit, for any length of time, was ever separated from God or went into Sheol / Hades. 1 Pet 3:19 does not state that Jesus' soul or spirit, at the time His body was dead, went to a place where spirits were in prison. 1 Pet 3:19 does say that Christ, in His Spirit, was the One who proclaimed this to men during Noah's day, this in Gen 6:3, "Then the LORD said, 'My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. ' "

Why do I believe Jesus, except for His physical body, was never separated from the Father? Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor abhored the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard." The Father observed in full the punishment and Crucifixion of His Son.

And Who pressed our sins, with full awareness of their sum total, upon Jesus? The Father did, even as Abraham bound Isaac's body and raised a knife over him. Did God not see our sins or His Son when He did that? Yes He did see, and He did not despise or abhor, seeing the One being afflicted.

So Ps 22:1 does not teach that God abandoned the complete Person of Jesus either while being crucified or in the grave. But His body was given to affliction, to a crucifixion, and into a grave. Perhaps the Man, Jesus Christ in flesh, was overwhelmed with the sum total of our sins so as not to perceive, by physical means, the face of His Father; but the Father "has not hidden His face from Him."

Heb 10:5 For this reason, coming into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You prepared a body for Me. His flesh and blood, His body, was sacrificed, and His Person made the offering. How can His Person be separated from the One to whom He is making the offering, "who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God" (Heb 9:14).

I submit the full / complete Person of the LORD Jesus Christ was not separated from the Father; but His body was separated for a while from Himself and from the Father.

 

[Nathan]

I am not saying Jesus only died physically.
I am saying Jesus' body died, from which His soul and spirit was separated, and that His body was placed in a grave.

I do not believe Jesus' soul or spirit, for any length of time, was ever separated from God or went into Sheol / Hades. 1 Pet 3:19 does not state that Jesus' soul or spirit, at the time His body was dead, went to a place where spirits were in prison. 1 Pet 3:19 does say that Christ, in His Spirit, was the One who proclaimed this to men during Noah's day, this in Gen 6:3, "Then the LORD said, 'My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. ' "

Why do I believe Jesus, except for His physical body, was never separated from the Father? Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor abhored the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard." The Father observed in full the punishment and Crucifixion of His Son.

And Who pressed our sins, with full awareness of their sum total, upon Jesus? The Father did, even as Abraham bound Isaac's body and raised a knife over him. Did God not see our sins or His Son when He did that? Yes He did see, and He did not despise or abhor, seeing the One being afflicted.

So Ps 22:1 does not teach that God abandoned the complete Person of Jesus either while being crucified or in the grave. But His body was given to affliction, to a crucifixion, and into a grave. Perhaps the Man, Jesus Christ in flesh, was overwhelmed with the sum total of our sins so as not to perceive, by physical means, the face of His Father; but the Father "has not hidden His face from Him."

Heb 10:5 For this reason, coming into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You prepared a body for Me. His flesh and blood, His body, was sacrificed, and His Person made the offering. How can His Person be separated from the One to whom He is making the offering, "who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God" (Heb 9:14).

I submit the full / complete Person of the LORD Jesus Christ was not separated from the Father; but His body was separated for a while from Himself and from the Father.

I submit that He was separated from the Father because if He was not then we are still in our sins.

Nothing can change the clear words of the prophecy concerning the body being in the grave and the soul being in Sheol. If someone chooses to believe other than what God declared through His servants, concerning the complete death and atonement of our Savior, then so be it.

I for one will not teach false doctrine concerning the death of the Son of God.

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

Christ was "made alive" in the spirit. If Christ was "made alive", that means He was dead. He "went" and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they "formerly" did not obey. This proclamation was after His death, not back in the time of Noah. They did not obey back then, they were put into prison, Christ went and proclaimed to them after His death.

Again, we MUST be careful when presenting the truth of Jesus attonement for our sins. It is no small thing to mess around with the Gospel message. It is a fact that we are redeemed because Jesus paid the payment in FULL for us - taking ALL the punishment - which included separation from the Father.

 

[eddif]

This post is possibly about what I do not know.
Luke 16:19-31
The rich man and Lazarus.
The conversation between Abraham's bosom and the place of torment is interesting.

When Jesus preached to those in captivity, could those in torment hear?

When the Jews rejected the gospel, the Gentiles later listened.

Romans 7:25 seperates the actions of the flesh from the mind, but they are both housed in one unit. By faith we reckon the flesh dead.

Are sins of the flesh handled easier than sins of the mind?
The spirit of the mind.

The OP is about the unforgiven sins. We really must consider some of this.

eddif

 

[FreeGrace]

The OP is about the unforgiven sins. We really must consider some of this.

eddif

I consult what Acts 10:43 says about sins forgiven:
"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Seems straightforward to me. Those who believe in Christ receive forgiveness of sins.

Therefore, those who haven't believed in Christ have not received forgiveness of sins.

That said, what about saved people, believers, because they still sin?

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

For when the believer sins, they need cleansing or purification of those sins. Confession is the means.

Finally, does unconfessed sin cause the believer to lose salvation?

Impossible, because Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28

 

[eddif]

Luke 24:36 KJV
And as they thus spoke, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and said unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

We have to be careful when we seem to think spirit can not accompany flesh.

The life we now live is based on the work Jesus did.

redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

It was not to show how much He loved His Son - Christ being completely dead was to show us how much God loves us. To kill(body and soul) His perfect Son who had done no wrong. To only say that it was a death of flesh is to completely miss the point God was making to us.

Here is one application of the benefit the church receives from Jesus.

Revelation 2:8 KJV
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

You have kept the flesh attachet to the spiritual pretty well. Some of the church will suffer severe tribulation as is adressed here. Those church members will not be abandoned either (based on the fact Jesus bore our situations).

To separate what Jesus Christ did for us, would miss the why he suffered for our benefit.

And greater things will ye do. Ten days? Our modern society does not want to suffer ten minutes without reaching for a pill bottle. Knowing Jesus suffered for us: this is our hope.

We need to address our two needs.
Romans 7:25
The flesh exists
The mind exists

We must deal with both. We should not think of our flesh as able to conquer, but give praise to Jesus (where the praise belongs). Our mind can place praise to Jesus Christ, while our flesh wants the credit. Reckoning the flesh dead is only possible through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now if I will allow understanding.

eddif