The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[Fastfredy0]

Not the same world. Maybe it will help you if you study the word world kosmos and see the different ways it is used.

I agree with you.

The fact is that “the world” is often used in a general way as in John 3:16. When the brethren of Christ said, “Shew Thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “shew Thyself to all mankind”? When the Pharisees said, “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him? When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on the earth? When Revelation 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast”, are we to understand that there will be no exceptions? What of the godly Jewish Remnant, who will be slain (Revelation 20:4) rather than submit? These, and other passages (John 14:17; John 15:19; John 16:20; John 17:14; etc.) which might be quoted, show that the term “the world” often has a relative rather than an absolute force. A.W.Pink
Aside: The ambiguity of the word "world" is a very useful tool to use to make scripture twist to agree with one's doctrine.

 

[JLB]

Not the same world. Maybe it will help you if you study the word world kosmos and see the different ways it is used.

I have. I encourage you to do the same.


The context is unmistakable.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17


It is clear that “the world” needs salvation.

The means the world refers to the unsaved.

Very Simple.


“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18


Those of the world must believe in Him or remain condemned.




JLB

 

[TibiasDad]

Well, give me an example of when you have not done "what you desired to do most at the time" which would be an example of your definition to "go right, when every ounce of evidence and inclination would say go left." If you can do so then you can both:

1. Substantiate your claim
2. Find an exception to Augustine's definition of "free will"

Oh, I kept reading and you gave an example. My bad.

Well, part of 'my definition' is missing. My definition is that "you always do what you desire most at the time". So the fat guy became satiated, causing his desire to eat to change ... so 'fatty' desired to stop eating at the time. I am saying he had a cause for his desire being 'full of food' and the effect was that 'fatty' stopped eating because his desire change.

I tried my own challenge.. my best solution was I could decide as determine by a coin flip. But, I had just changed the cause the controlled my desire. So using your example, I now desired to follow the advise of a coin rather than the pains in my stomach telling my brain I was full and causing me to desire to stop eating at the time.

... and so it goes with the decision to believe salvifically (IMO). Our sin nature is the cause behind "no one seeks God". We never come to Him on our own unless something external changes our mind and the only one that can do that is God via regeneration. (reformed viewpoint)

Aside: You articulate your ideas very well.

The point, FF, is not that we do what we want most at the point of decision, but that the decision is not necessarily the natural tendency of previous choices. The sinful nature does not cause us to sin always, but we do always sin. The nature of sin is the predominant power in our life, but we do not always do what that nature and power seeks to have us do. We do not always bend to the will of our natures.

Thank you for your " aside"!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

It is clear that “the world” needs salvation.

The means the world refers to the unsaved.

Very Simple.

Indeed! Jesus said he "came to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10), and every single human being is lost. Jesus did not say, "I came to seek and to save the Elect alone"!

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Indeed! Jesus said he "came to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10), and every single human being is lost. Jesus did not say, "I came to seek and to save the Elect alone"!

Doug

Jesus is speaking about the Sheep that were lost. And He successfully sought and saved each of them 100% Lk 15

 

[JLB]

Jesus is speaking about the Sheep that were lost. And He successfully sought and saved each of them 100% Lk 15

Luke 15 teaches us that His sheep who become lost must repent and be reconciled back to Him.



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Jesus is instructing His disciples what to do if one of His sheep become lost.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Luke 15 teaches us that His sheep who become lost must repent and be reconciled back to Him.



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Jesus is instructing His disciples what to do if one of His sheep become lost.



JLB

The Shepherd finds the Lost SHeep and that's the Sheeps repentance.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe world in Jn 3:16-17 refers to Gods Elect, Sheep out of every nation. Now when a Sheep or Elect person is born into this world, they are sinful unbelievers like everyone else, but because God so Loved them, and Christ died for them the Gift of Faith, Believing is given to them to believe on Christ Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Hi brightframe52

No where in the bible does the word WORLD refer to the elect, or chosen, of God.
They are chosen because they have responded to God's call.

JLB has a very concise way of speaking...something I lack.

So I thought I'd post what the word WORLD means in the bible.

I pray you take the time to read it all because many are teaching doctrine that is not correct and
are using incorrect usage of biblical words to achieve this.

This is what the word WORLD means in the bible:


Bible Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - World
World [N]
The biblical concept of world falls into five categories: the physical world, the human world, the moral world, the temporal world, and the coming world.

The Physical World. The physical world at its largest extent includes the whole universe, the cosmos ( John 1:9 ; Acts 17:24 ) or the creation ( Rom 8:20 ). When biblical writers refer to the world, however, they usually mean the earth itself, not including sun, moon, and stars. No clear Old Testament references appear to the world as a planet, although Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth, " is suggestive to some. Many Old Testament uses of world or earth (eres, in poetry sometimes tebel [lebeT]) could refer equally to the planet or the ground. When Old Testament writers wanted to refer to the universe, they used an expression like "the heavens and the earth" ( Gen 1:1 ) or an expansion of that expression ( Exod 20:11 ; Neh 9:6 ).

Scripture affirms first of all that God created the world ( Gen 1:1-2:4 ; Acts 4:24 ; 14:15 ; Rev 10:6 ). Because he created it, he owns it and may be addressed as its Lord ( Matt 11:25 ; Luke 10:21 ; Acts 17:24 ). The whole world is full of its Creator's glory ( Isa 6:3 ). Because God is Creator and Lord of the earth, it holds only secondary value; a believer must not swear by it ( Matt 5:34-35 ) or accumulate treasure on it ( Matt 6:19 ).

God designed the world to be fruitful. His creation includes provision for animals as well as for people ( Psalm 104:10-22 ).

God's judgment encompasses the physical world. He flooded it in Noah's time and it lies ready for his judgment at the end ( 2 Peter 3:7 2 Peter 3:10 ). The world's permanence is only relative. At the end God's angels will gather his chosen ones "from the ends of earth to the ends of heaven" ( Mark 13:27 ; NRSV ). Until that time the earth is the arena of God's activity through his people. Christians are to witness to Jesus "to the ends of the earth" ( Acts 1:8 ).



page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

brightfame52


page 2 of 2



The Human World. The human world includes dry land where people can live, the inhabited earth where they do live, and by metonymy, the people who live there.

The dry land appears in contrast to the sea in Genesis 1:9-10 and Revelation 10:2. Much of this dry land makes up the inhabited earth. The inhabited earth was created with delight by God's wisdom ( Prov 8:27-31 ). Before Jesus' birth Caesar Augustus attempted to take a census of "the whole world" (really only the Roman Empire Luke 2:1 ). The tempter offered Jesus "all the kingdoms" of the inhabited world ( Luke 4:5 ; cf. Matt 4:8 ). Jesus predicted that the gospel would be preached to the whole world ( Matt 24:14 ; 26:13 ; cf. Rom 10:18 ), a prediction so successful that the early church, in its opponents' opinion, upset the whole world ( Acts 17:6 ). The whole world is deceived by the devil ( Rev 12:9 ) and will experience great trouble before the end ( Luke 21:26 ; Rev 3:10 ).

The people of the world are called simply the "world" or the "earth" occasionally in the Old Testament and frequently in the New Testament. "Yahweh will judge the world, " or a similar statement, means he will judge the world's inhabitants ( Psalm 9:8 ; 96:13 ; Isa 13:11 ; 26:9 ). Similar New Testament references to the Christ's or his apostles' authority appear. The Son of Man "has authority on the earth, " authority over the people of the world ( Matt 9:6 ; parallels Mark 2:10 ; Luke 5:24 ). The apostles have a derived authority, the power of "binding and loosing" ( Matt 16:19 ; 18:18 ).

In the Johannine literature the "world" often means the people of the world. The world did not know the Word ( John 1:10 ), the Lamb who would take away its sin ( John 1:29 ). God loved the world, sending his Son into it to save rather than condemn it ( John 3:16-17 ; 12:47 ; 1 John 4:9 ). The Son of God is the "Savior of the world" ( John 4:42 ; 1 John 4:14 ), giving life to it as the "bread of life" ( John 6:33 John 6:51 ).

The Moral World. The moral world includes people indifferent or hostile to God, the God-hostile environment generally, and in the widest sense, corruption and evil summed up under the general term "the world."

If the people of the world can be spoken of as "the world" in a neutral sense, "the world" can also refer to the subclass of indifferent and hostile people who reject God and his ways. Before the flood nearly all the people of the world became corrupt ( Gen 6:11 ). In Jesus' time the world hated him ( John 7:7 ) and will hate his followers ( John 15:18-19 ). The world, ungodly people, cannot receive the things of God ( John 14:17 John 14:22 ; 16:8-9 ; cf. 1 John 3:1 ) and is not even worthy of the people of faith who live among them ( Heb 11:38 ).

In the New Testament the world also appears as a hostile environment. Because of the hatred of the world's people, the Son asks the Father to protect his followers rather than remove them from their alien surroundings ( John 17:14-16 ). Paul expresses his indifference to the world by saying he "is crucified" as far as the world is concerned ( Gal 6:14 ). Seven times in 1 Corinthians 1-3 Paul refers to the world's ignorance of God and its powerlessness to find him without the cross of Christ.

Because of the world's hostility to God, it is full of corruption ( 2 Peter 1:4 ) and stands as a symbol of corruption. One cannot be friendly with the evil world and love God at the same time ( James 4:4 ; 1 John 2:15-17 ). Believers by their faith must "overcome the world" ( 1 John 5:4-5 ), killing whatever belongs to their "earthly nature" ( Col 3:5 ) and denying "worldly passions" ( Titus 2:12 ).

The Temporal and Coming Worlds. Although the Old Testament presents the idea that the present world is temporary ( Psalm 102:25-27 ), the distinction between this world/age and the world/age to come does not appear clearly until the late intertestamental and New Testament periods. By the time of the New Testament, the distinction is clear and frequent.

Satan rules only this world ( John 12:31 ; 14:30 ; 16:11 ; 2 Cor 4:4 ), not the next one, while Jesus' kingdom is "not of this world" ( John 18:36 ) but belongs to the coming age. Jesus warns that a person may "gain the whole world" (the material things of this passing age) yet lose life in the next ( Matt 16:26 ; parallels Mark 8:36 ; Luke 9:25 ). Paul expresses concern that believers may become so caught up in the affairs of this world that they will experience undue hardship in living for Christ ( 1 Cor 7:29-35 ).

The present world is passing away even now ( 1 John 2:17 ). Living in this transient world, one must not love it ( 2 Tim 4:10 ), become conformed to its ways ( Rom 12:2 ), or fall in love with its godless "wisdom" ( 1 Cor 2:6 ; 3:18-19 ; James 3:15 ). Instead one must live a godly life ( Titus 2:12 ), avoiding the snares of the "present evil age" from which Christ's death has set his people free ( Gal 1:4 ). The believer may look forward to the new world, "a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness" ( 2 Peter 3:13 ; cf. Rev 21:1-5 ).

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/world/

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I quote the entire context in which Rom 1:19-20 occur because it demonstrates the deliberate decision to disregard that which was known, and thus devalue that knowledge and corrupt the expression of that true knowledge.

Hi Doug,
Sorry for delay.

Romans 1:19-20 shows that men are without excuse. Those that do not accept God (the Creator/Father) will be without excuse, even if they had never heard the gospel, because God made Himself be plainly known to them through His creation. Before the post-modern era of the 1800's....man looked to God for everything...even science depended on God and believed He was the creator and set the universe in motion and was also the creator of all the physical laws of nature.

I'm speaking about the informed and educated. Some were not. Some did not live either in the America's or Europe and did not know about Jesus. Or Asia, I should say.

Those that lived before the gospel was ever written, or those that had no access to it, were still loved by God if they loved Him.
God is a just God and after much thought I've come to understand that only HE can set the standard for salvation.

As I can understand, His standard is this:

Love God
Live to please Him
Follow the natural laws that all civilized persons know
and....accept Jesus when and if He is presented to us.

Paul is talking about a general movement of mankind in the earliest days of human history after the fall. We have record of God speaking directly to Cain regarding Cain's sacrifice in relation to Abel's, which reveals direct communication regarding proper sacrifices. (Gen 4) This downward spiral continues to devolve until the time of Noah (Gen 6), when God reboots mankind to slow the destruction. The knowledge of God becomes more and more corrupt, and is the rule of thumb for mankind's behavior, with but a few notable exceptions, such ad Noah and Job, and even they were not perfect in their expression of the knowledge of God.

Noah had limited knowledge of God...but I think any amount will due for salvific purposes.
To know Him better is to receive help in our lives and to have more reason for joy.
I say this because it seems to me there is little happiness in this life...but there can be much joy.

In a personal level expression of this, each of us are born with a corrupted image of God, but there is yet the shadow of the true knowledge of God and his character and nature that causes us to naturally long for something more.

Agreed.

If we are raised in a Christian environment, we are fed reinforcement information to help retain that knowledge, but the sinful nature is always seeking to misdirect our thinking, and cause us to misappropriate our sense of worship, such as Pascal's notion that, "[man] tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself”! Or, as I said, putting round pegs into square holes.

All of us are guilty to one degree or another of doing this!


What is your understanding?


Doug

All of us are guilty to one degree or another of doing this.....seeking happiness in other ways instead of seeking God.
I can remember loving Jesus and Mary (I was raised Catholic but have no problem with loving Mary) when I was just about
10 years old. I was always very aware of sin and I know that we are all sinners but God kept me pretty safe. I didn't really
become born again till about the age of 27/28 when I had a real experience and Jesus became a real "person" to me.
I was living in NY and was offered catechism and the ways of God.

Some do not have this luck and I just have come to the conclusion that there is only ONE God the Creator and if a person that
does not know Jesus and yet is worshipping THAT God...I believe he will be saved.

In the O.T. Jesus was not known yet but some were saved.
Jesus was necessary to open the gates of heaven and release the saved from Hades (paradise)
but they were waiting happily in Abraham's Bossom.

God so loved the world.
God loved all His creation that was willing to accept His conditions.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your words are error.

They are not my words.
I gave you the source.

How do you feel there is error in the explanation of WORLD?
Could you please reference where you get YOUR information from?

It is certainly not from scripture because nowhere in the N.T. is world used to mean the saved.
It would be interesting to understand how the world refers to saved persons since THE WORLD is always seen
in a negative light in t he N.T.

 

[jasonc]

kosmos,greek. the word meaning system of things ,the order of it ,the earth itself ,the people in the earth .

 

[jerry63935]

The Shepherd finds the Lost SHeep and that's the Sheeps repentance.

disagree %100 repentance is to turn from

 

[jerry63935]

Your words are error.

i am more than familiar with how the calvinist define world. i also am very familiar with the doctrine.. calvinist like other denoms seem to have the attitude of the holier than thou..the correct doctrine . which does nothing but create division . when paul wrote work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.. it means exACTLY THAT . Jesus prayed for us to be ONE IN HIM john 17. there can be no unity when we have to argue over the most correct theology. its Jesus way truth life. not a denom or church name we are either abiding in him or we are not..

 

[Hospes]

disagree %100 repentance is to turn from

Actually, the word in Greek is a compound word meaning "changed thinking/mind." "Turning from" - i.e. a change in behavior - is the outward manifestation of changed thinking.

Closely related to this, we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. Romans 12:2 (ESV)

 

[jerry63935]

Actually, the word in Greek is a compound word meaning "changed thinking/mind." "Turning from" - i.e. a change in behavior - is the outward manifestation of changed thinking. We are transformed by the renewing of our mind. Romans 12:2 (ESV)

psst its inward then out ward lets not leave out be not conformed the world..action on our part when we are transformed by the renewing of our mind.. its not for GOD benefit it is for us that WE may prove /know the will of GOD which is our reasonable service worship

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed. It is a contradiction for one to believe one's belief is inferior to anothers' belief.
Example: You believe your beliefs, anywhere they differ from mine, are superior to my belief.

Hi FF,
I don't know that inferior and superior are the words to use about one's belief.
I'd say that they're different.
I DO believe that calvinist believers think they're beliefs are SUPERIOR than other's beliefs.
This is because they feel they can believe in a God others cannot accept.

This is a general concept and when I mention them I do NOT mean that YOU necessarily feel this way.

This is a falsehood. Perhaps you didn't articulate your thought precisely. Perhaps you meant to say that reform doctrines' idea of God's love, mercy and justice differ from yours.

No. I'm very careful about what I say....
I MEANT that calvinism teaches a God that is the opposite of what He is.
Calvinism teaches a God that is
UNLOVING
UNMERCIFUL
UNJUST

If you believe this to be the opposite you'll have to explain why to me.
Do YOU believe God picks and chooses who will be saved and who be damned?
If you do...then HOW is that a God of love, mercy or justice?

Your interpretation of God's love from a reformed viewpoint has a majority of those He loves ending up in hell. Your definition of God's love is unholy as you would have God love the son's of Satan (John 8:44) (my opinion, I know you think very, very highly of God)
Reform interpretation God's love has having 100.0000% of those He loves with the love of complacency being with Him (In Christ) forever. (John 6:39)

How does John 8:44 teach that God loves the sons of satan?
John 6:39 is questionable as some theologians believe it means that everything God gave Jesus to do, Jesus will complete.
IOW,,,it's speaking abouth THINGS and not PERSONS.
Even if it is speaking about persons...God calls everyone to Himself,,,,
those that reply will be saved and see eternal life on the Day of the Lord.

God calls everyone:
Acts 17:27-31
27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’
29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

This is empirically untrue. God does not offer salvation to those that have not heard the gospel (faith cometh by hearing). I know you disagree, but that is a minority arminian opinion. (not that that necessarily proves you wrong). You also believe in unconditional election for those that do not reach the age of accountability.

No Fastfredy...
YOU believe in unconditional election.
I believe in conditional election.

Election is conditional for those not reaching the age of accountability because they have not yet offended God personally.
They are not guilty of personal sin, but only suffer from the effect of Adam's sin.
Adam's sin IS NOT imputed to us.

As to faith coming by hearing...
I believe that faith comes by hearing the word of God.
I just also believe some could believe in God by having a desire for God in their heart (if they have no access to hearing).

Again, God passes over those that did not hear the gospel. He also passes over all those that may have become believers but were not afforded that chance due to a premature death (i.e. Pol Pot, Stalin, Hilter)
Reform doctrine believes God is ALWAYS just. There is not one person in hell that does not deserve it. God was not obligated to save one person. The fact that He saves any shows His mercy.

Explain to me how God is a just God that does not give to EVERYONE the equal opportunity of being saved.
You may believe God is always just...but HOW is He just?
Would a human judge send you to your death for having done NOTHING?
How much more just should God be?

The fact that God saves ANY is a sign of INJUSTICE,,,not justice.
To be a just God,,,,He would have to give the same love and mercy to ALL MEN...
not just to a select few.
The fact that He saves any is proof of injustice.
Think about this carefully.


Proverbs 8:4
Verse Concepts
“To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.

Isaiah 45:22
Verse Concepts
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 55:1
Verse Concepts
“Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters;
And you who have no money come, buy and eat.
Come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without cost.



Matthew 11:28-30
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Matthew 22:9
Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’

John 7:37
Verse Concepts
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

Mark 16:15 ​

And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

RE:

Long story ... suffice it to say that in a previous post you yourself said one should never depend on the words ALL and EVERYONE. I agree.

I never said that one should not depend on the words ALL and EVERYONE.....
All means All
and Everyone means Everyone

What I was saying is that we never would say EVERYONE WAS DRUNK...there could have been a few that were not.
This is a totally different concept and goes into English grammar and not biblical study so I would end it here.

Aside: I know you love God greatly and therefore despise anyone doctrine that contradicts your perception of truth in connection with God. I admire you zealousness for God.

Unfortunately FF,,, it's not MY perception of truth.
The Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers (the first 300 to 400 years after Jesus' resurrection) had
no concept of predestination or the idea that a person could not have free will.
These ideas were introduced in the 1,500's. Quite some time after Jesus' death.

R.C. Sproul (reformed theologian) .... I know I have mistakes in my theology, I just don't know what they are (not an exact quote). I'm with Sproul. Only thing I know for sure is a lot of people got it terribly wrong, many have it wrong, some may be close, none have it all correct (where the quantitative assessment of "wrong" has a subjective definition).

*ponders* I wonder if God looks down at poor me and says, "Freddie got it wrong again (as I predestined)"

I do agree with the above concerning DOCTRINE.
However, calvinism is not a doctrine,,,it's theology.
The study of God.
Has Calvin understood God properly?
I say it has not, as does every other Christian denomination except the reformed.
There must be a reason why.

 

[Fastfredy0]

calvinist like other denoms seem to have the attitude

LOL.... at first I thought "denoms" was a typo of "demons". ... LOL... I assume you mean "denominations".

 

[jerry63935]

I assume you mean "denominations".

you can assume right

 

[GodsGrace]

kosmos,greek. the word meaning system of things ,the order of it ,the earth itself ,the people in the earth .

Simply put and very correct!