Hospes
Member
This is so ironic. The gnostics claimed secret knowledge. You claim secret knowledge that John was writing about gnostics. Does that make you just a tad bit gnostic?
Sometimes you just gotta smile!
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The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology
- Thread starter TibiasDad
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Sometimes you just gotta smile!
TibiasDad
Member
Rom 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
I quote the entire context in which Rom 1:19-20 occur because it demonstrates the deliberate decision to disregard that which was known, and thus devalue that knowledge and corrupt the expression of that true knowledge.
Paul is talking about a general movement of mankind in the earliest days of human history after the fall. We have record of God speaking directly to Cain regarding Cain's sacrifice in relation to Abel's, which reveals direct communication regarding proper sacrifices. (Gen 4) This downward spiral continues to devolve until the time of Noah (Gen 6), when God reboots mankind to slow the destruction. The knowledge of God becomes more and more corrupt, and is the rule of thumb for mankind's behavior, with but a few notable exceptions, such ad Noah and Job, and even they were not perfect in their expression of the knowledge of God.
In a personal level expression of this, each of us are born with a corrupted image of God, but there is yet the shadow of the true knowledge of God and his character and nature that causes us to naturally long for something more. If we are raised in a Christian environment, we are fed reinforcement information to help retain that knowledge, but the sinful nature is always seeking to misdirect our thinking, and cause us to misappropriate our sense of worship, such as Pascal's notion that, "[man] tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself”! Or, as I said, putting round pegs into square holes.
All of us are guilty to one degree or another of doing this!
What is your understanding?
Doug
TibiasDad
Member
Ezk 18:24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
God says one who is truly righteous can turn from being actually righteous to become unrighteous!
Doug
is REFORMED theology the only theology there is ?
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
REFORMED is not catagorized as a theology IMO as theology is "the study of God". Example: Fastfredy studies God, but he is not a theology.
Miscellaneous meandering: I would say the Reformed is a denomination and I would hazard to say it has systematized it doctrines to a much greater extent (Westminster Confession, 1689 London Confession) than other denominations (maybe R.C. have as much). Thus, since it has better defined itself, it is easier to debate its pros and cons on this protestant site than other denominations.
My comment is a wishy, washy ... I think the question needs more specification.
i know what reformed is..but it appears on the surface to be the supperiour Doctrine
jasonc
Member
you said it wasn't ,he desired jerusalem wasn't foreknow ,strange because I know jews then and my church teaches ,its pre trib ,pre mil In, eschatology that isreal returns ,you are adding a bias to plain words .
a priest must be Holy to serve ,the person who offered and was intereceded by that priest must care to know and provide the proper offering or die .
since both in context were called the righteous ,the persons Jesus desired to see under wings must mean all.
a few 5 pointers stated that God calls all to repent but already knows who won't and uses their decisions against them I, judgement ,he doesn't offer salvation like a man ,here this is yours ,but i know you won't so not really offering it .the lost can't say God didn't tell them ,or offer it to them .my church teaches that .
thus God didn't create adam and intend him by design to sin .
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
LOL .... don't let wondering read that. She will report you. (J/K ... don't hit me Wondering)
The superior doctrine is the one that is true. How does one determine truth? What bias' distort truth (sin nature, upbringing)? Does God bring truth to individuals and to what degree? Could I study all the religions of the world and come to an fair conclusion which is truth (maybe a combination or all are true); what would be the foundation used to determine truth (my corrupted morals?)?
1 Cor. 1:18-2:5 says the "message of the cross is foolishness" ... "“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise" ... "he world through all its [earthly] wisdom failed to recognize God" ... "foolishness of the message preached"... "to Gentiles foolishness" ... "look at your own calling, believers; not many [of you were considered] wise according to human standards" ... "my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom [using clever rhetoric], but [they were delivered] in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit [operating through me] and of [His] power [stirring the minds of the listeners and persuading them],
Conclusion 1 Cor. 2:5 ... "so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom and rhetoric of men" ... rather ... "on the power of God."
Speaking for the reformed side, I would say God gives us faith to believers via regeneration so that we now believe (from man's point of view) the "foolishness of the gospel".
Speaking for my Arminian brothers (which is not really fair as I am biased) ... God gives all people Libertarian Free Will as the basis to determine whether the "foolishness of the gospel (from man's point of view)" is true. (again, my biased view point)
Libertarian Free Will Definition: (the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volition's; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts)
jasonc
Member
sounds like He doesn't want to judge any one in isreal for their sins not just only,the elect but anyone he takes no pleasure .
look in probably a three pointer but I refuse to ignore the clear context
in revelation it says to him who overcomerh shall I give the right to the tree of life .
if Jesus was the one ,then why the statement when its already done by him?
I have osas leanings but lets not ignore clear warnings on this .
Hospes
Member
I have found Wayne Grudem's definitions clear and useful:
- Systematic theology is any study that answers the question, "What does the whole Bible teach us today?" about any given topic.
- A doctrine is what the whole Bible teaches us today about some particular topic.
- Christian ethics is any study that answers the question "What does God require us to do and what attitudes does he require us to have today?" with regard to any give situation.
(Shamelessly lifted from Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem.)
These are helpful to me in that I can mentally envision how one flows from the other: systematic theology produces doctrines which are in turn the basis to determine Christian ethics.
Interestingly, I find the crux of my battle is with ethics. It makes me wonder if Satan is quite content with me doing systematic theology and landing on sound doctrine as long as none of it actually has any impact on my attitudes and actions. There are times I have sat in the middle of a very difficult situation and prayed silently "God I know you command me to be patient, kind, unselfish, and gentle...but it's so impossibly hard! How can I do it? I do not have what it takes, Father!"
And that's one reason I'm a Calvinist!
not sure about libertarian.. but it is freely given been down this road many times in discussion i been called freewheeler accused of false teaching. i posted for years in carm done email correspondence. see i was saved way before i ever heard of reformed or Arminian . i really dont need a name tag. i am like the apostle paul i know in whom i have believed. its not about either one of the two doctrines. its about the one who paid the price. i have good friend in the u.k who is reformed. there is no division between us. the biggest problem with man ad doctrines /teachings is they are correct other are wrong . there is no happy medium
Hi Fastfredy,,,,,
Thought I'd post the verses you brought up....
1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:5
18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
1And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:5
Paul preached with trembling...he didn't feel totally able. But the power of the Holy Spirit was in Paul's words...proving to those listening that the power was from God. Paul preached plainly because he wanted their faith to stand firmly on God and not on man's lofty ideas.
We believers are the called of God.
Called to be holy in Christ from the beginning of the world.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
1 Corinthians 7:17
Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him.
1 Corinthians 1:21
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
We come to believe in God not through the lofty words of men, but through the simplicity
of Jesus Christ and the story of His crucifixion. The message preached may sound like foolishness,
but will save those who believe, as 1 Corinthians 1:21 states.
No hitting on this forum!
Please do not attribute to me beliefs I do not hold....This is so ironic. The gnostics claimed secret knowledge. You claim secret knowledge that John was writing about gnostics. Does that make you just a tad bit gnostic?
Sometimes you just gotta smile!
Of all things, being a "tad bit gnostic".
Have you not studied the gospel of John?
Have you not studied the history of the early church?
You could stop smiling and get to work perhaps.
John wrote his gospel last and by that time gnostics were entering the church
and he was very disturbed by this.
1 John 2:18-19
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
****************************************************************************************
the well-being of the church as it confronts heresy and stresses the lack of moral concern that springs from it. There is strong defense against the threat of a type of Gnosticism called Docetism that denied the reality of Jesus’ earthly life and thus the meaning of the cross.....
source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/biblical-literature/The-First-Letter-of-John
******************************************************************************************
In order to properly interpret this epistle, which is sometimes referred to as the “tests of 1 John” or the “tests of life,” three issues must be settled: (1) to whom was the epistle written, Christians or professing Christians, (2) the nature of the Gnostic heresy being confronted, and (3) the intended purpose of the book. The first two concerns may be considered as “context.
Context refers to the events that surround the book, e.g., why the book was written, the issues that are considered in the book, and the person or persons to whom the book was written. It is fairly universally accepted that the book of 1 John was written primarily to contest the philosophies of Gnosticism as existed in that day.
Gnosticism—the Heresy
From the various references within certain books of the Apostle John (i.e., 1 John and the Revelation) and the writings of the early church historians (e.g., Polycarp; Ignatius), it becomes clear that a proper interpretation of this epistle is possible only when one understands the Gnostic heresy that existed and opposed the early church
source: http://bibleone.net/print_tbs113.html
There's much more on this if you're interested.
Amen to that!
Faith comes by hearing.
We hear and we believe and we have faith.
NOT the other way around....
For instance:
God gave us irristble grace to have faith
then we believe
then we hear
?????
Agreed.
Just like Joseph KNEW Mary.
It's an intimate kind of knowing many times in scripture.
And, yes, God changes our heart once we are saved....
Thank you God for that!
Hospes
Member
You're going to have to help me out. Where do any of the early church fathers - let's say within the first through third centuries - write that John was addressing Gnosticism in his epistles. From you confidence, I gather you know of some primary source.
I like this proposition, idealistic, singular, definitive.I have found Wayne Grudem's definitions clear and useful:
- Systematic theology is any study that answers the question, "What does the whole Bible teach us today?" about any given topic.
- A doctrine is what the whole Bible teaches us today about some particular topic.
- Christian ethics is any study that answers the question "What does God require us to do and what attitudes does he require us to have today?" with regard to any give situation.
(Shamelessly lifted from Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem.)
These are helpful to me in that I can mentally envision how one flows from the other: systematic theology produces doctrines which are in turn the basis to determine Christian ethics.
Interestingly, I find the crux of my battle is with ethics. It makes me wonder if Satan is quite content with me doing systematic theology and landing on sound doctrine as long as none of it actually has any impact on my attitudes and actions. There are times I have sat in the middle of a very difficult situation and prayed silently "God I know you command me to be patient, kind, unselfish, and gentle...but it's so impossibly hard! How can I do it? I do not have what it takes, Father!"
And that's one reason I'm a Calvinist!
Except life is neither idealistic, singular or definitive.
God, the creator of everything debates with Moses His anger and the justifiable approach to destroy Israel. Does that not strike you as odd? God is debating with a man his heart. He wants involvement, the putting of sides, the weighing up of motivations, opportunities and the resulting way forward. If there is no Moses to step forward and bring the hope of the promise and its fulfilment, the project is lost.
Do you see Gods will is intertwined with us, because we are His body, linked to his perception of everything, bound in love and grace, not separate but shared, not independent, but involved. Just as we can say we are free to leave or approach, we know also neither is true, but by Gods grace. When I write these words, how are they formed and to which truth do I answer or am inspired? How can that which captures my heart and soul be something I choose, but rather am captivated by?
I fell in love with my wife to be, but not because I chose to, it happened. In a sense God has fallen in love with us, and His own nature, love, which seeks and desires the best in every situation. The closer we come to Him the more clearly the perspective becomes, but only to those who likewise walk. The same words, the same summaries, speak differently, deeper and echo again a new message. Scripture appears like a book, limited telling a story at one level. Years pass and 10 other levels pop out. As time goes by, it appears there are no limits to how the stories play, rather it is the Holy Spirit singing to God through us, that brings glory to His name.
But in this all, there is a terribleness, that is blindingly burning and absolute, warned and real. Listen and life comes, miss it, and dust, a hollow shell is all there ever is. We are built to be in communion with Him, to sing from our hearts as worshippers at His Holy throne. So I can be cry "Holy Holy is the Lamb that was slain, to receive honour and glory forever more, Amen."
God bless you
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Oh, I like him. I like systematic theology books; put it all together ... well, not eschatology so much ... lol
Sound doctrine is TRUTH. Can't see Satan siding with truth. Agreed, application of truth is difficult (join the club).
Agreed. He that is in you does though. Let the battle continue.
Always love reading your 'stuff', but then I am biased as I agree with you.
i dont know as if they where gnostics or not. but it is evident they was among the class in matthew 7 not everyone who says LORD Lord . yes this will draw fire ..i dont really care but i do in some ways agree with pos perseverance of the saints.. those truly saved will stay the course.. the might hit the wrong path go a stray, i really believe they will return back. much like the prodigal son... either way they was never a part of the Body