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The Vineyard

Malachi said:
By conducting a SHAM POLL. Should that surprise anyone?
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Except you throw in more than a rude remark off the top of your head, that is completely antagonistic and totally uncalled for. The Barna People are a Christian Group dealing in Christian matters, to the best of my knowledge. And as much as one of us might want Joe, Sally, Frank and Judy in Heaven with us, the road is straight and the gate is narrow and I have, in the past twenty-six years met a hand full of people that connect on the Spiritual level. I have made thousands of friends that I love but almost none of them connect on the Spiritual Level and as much as I care for them, there is a ll to the fruit they produce.sme
 
Malachi said:
Why would you ask? They are charismatic evangelical Christians.
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I ask because I haven't gotten to know them all.
And there has been controversy over them.
Come to think of it, I could bring up any denomination for that matter.
Maybe I will.
 
My wife and I went to many Vineyard services. We weren't "official members" if they ever had such, but we used to spend about 5 days out of 7 in charismatic assemblies of every sort throughout our large city, as was the practice of huge numbers of charismatics back in the late 70's to mid 80's.

It used to be quite fun! Most of them have now disappeared.

Christians? Yes, the majority are. Certainly not the 2% suggested earlier. I'd say more like 90% with the other 10% being unbelievers the others took there.
 
th1b.taylor said:
Okay, for the third time this morning in these forums, I'll explain how the survey was taken. But first, an ¿honest? face to face conversation about belief is never fruitful because all of us, every single one of us will lie.

The survey was taken in the mid-eighties the Barna Group took a survey, cross-denominational of the American Christian Church. The survey was done in Double-Blind Fashion to avoid lies as much as could be possible in order to arrive at a true or as true as could be possible because they did not need to be concerned about anyone, save God, knowing how they answered.

The Test Sample was the Faithful Only and that was defined as those certified to attend services no less than three times a week by that Churches Pastor. Nobody wrote a name nor did they use any identifying marks but merely checked yes or no for each answer.

I do not know every question because I was still in the Juke Joints chasing women and playing my guitars but as it was explained to me the questions were few and of the following nature ; "Do you believe Jesus died on the cross to pay the debt for your sins? Do you believe in the Virgin Birth? Do you believe Jesus is returning on a cloud to take you to Heaven with Him?"

Now the Faithful in any given Christian Church will run someplace between 10 and 15% of that particular assembly and of that, somewhere between 10 and 15%, less than 2% believed the basic tenants of the Christian Faith.

With this result it can easily be concluded that somewhere less than 1% of the entire Church is actually saved and walks with God but I favor believing, for no good, particular reason, that the number will carry throughout even the occasional visitor.
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IF you are talking the typical orthodox assemblies I can believe it. But among charismatics? No way. They are all zealots. Maybe not all that doctrinally sound, but zealots for Jesus nevertheless.
 
smaller said:
IF you are talking the typical orthodox assemblies I can believe it. But among charismatics? No way. They are all zealots. Maybe not all that doctrinally sound, but zealots for Jesus nevertheless.
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Smaller, the survey was conducted Cross Denominational. Please read to comprehended. I am not trying to be rude but so many have become idiots today and it seems to be rubbing off our youth onto our seniors and the qualifier is included in my OP.

I'm not even certain there was a Vineyard Movement in the Eighties but I am certain that if the people in that movement we members of the Church, the Body of the Christ, then they were included in the numbers.

You are attempting to make a spot argument that has from almost nothing to absolutely nothing to do with the OP. The better than 98% and the less than 2% numbers cover the Church, not some small church group.

Today the so called, Body of Christ is filled with so many self-centered liars that every one of the faithful should be concerned. We all have run upon more than one if we have been members of any Church Family for a year or more and we have become so sin-riddled that we inore the fruit we are instructed in Matthew 7 to judge, we are becoming Worldly Idiots.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
I'm told this is a Christian church.
I've met some of them and they seem nice.
The ones I met from Oregon were charismatic and full of excitement for Jesus.
The ones I met from Florida were knowledgeable and joyous.
But are they christian?
I think so.
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Well, besides those who have gotten sucked into the Kundalini spirit that got introduced into the movement and not stopped, they're prolly a pretty good bunch of Christians.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Well, besides those who have gotten sucked into the Kundalini spirit that got introduced into the movement and not stopped, they're prolly a pretty good bunch of Christians.
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I'm 71, and they, as a whole, are the best bunch I have found yet. Most of them seem to "live" Christianity, rather than just practicing getting it right on Sundays.
 
Willie T said:
I'm 71, and they, as a whole, are the best bunch I have found yet. Most of them seem to "live" Christianity, rather than just practicing getting it right on Sundays.
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From what little I know about the denomination...

They experienced explosive growth for a period of time.
Then because the pastoral staff was often very poorly trained the churches began to disappear. (This happens often with explosive growth)

The details of what I've heard range from very liberal and chandelier swinging to fairly conservative and a few tongues spoken in rare occasions.

I know a couple of people who were pastoral staff for this denomination. They never had the temperament or skill set to be pastoral staff. (One day photographer of cheesecake pics of scantily clad women and next pastoral staff at Vineyard Church?)

When someone I know goes into the ministry to become pastoral staff it's usually because they know they can and those who seem to want to aren't qualified...so basically there is no one else capable of doing the job...and they feel that they must.
 
th1b.taylor said:
Smaller, the survey was conducted Cross Denominational. Please read to comprehended. I am not trying to be rude but so many have become idiots today and it seems to be rubbing off our youth onto our seniors and the qualifier is included in my OP.

I'm not even certain there was a Vineyard Movement in the Eighties but I am certain that if the people in that movement we members of the Church, the Body of the Christ, then they were included in the numbers.
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Unlikely. Charismatics were generally off the radar of christianity in those days. Mostly just the zealots involved. I know. Was there. Just the qualifier you referenced earlier would have been nearly impossible with a Vineyard group because they were largely loose and unorganized.

You are attempting to make a spot argument that has from almost nothing to absolutely nothing to do with the OP.
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It was you who inserted that (possibly) Vineyard members (if there ever was such) were only 2% legit believers. Having been there and done that I can say for a certainty that simply was not true then and probably isn't true today for the groups that remain. Perhaps Willie T can verify this?
Today the so called, Body of Christ is filled with so many self-centered liars that every one of the faithful should be concerned. We all have run upon more than one if we have been members of any Church Family for a year or more and we have become so sin-riddled that we inore the fruit we are instructed in Matthew 7 to judge, we are becoming Worldly Idiots.
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Wouldn't dispute that but I think that's been a bigger problem in the past than today. At least today we have less outright killing between the sects such as existed between prots and catholics not that long ago.
 
th1b.taylor said:
Malachi,
I have never seen you kick the pail into the ocean this way before, are you okay?
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I'm just fine. To ask whether Vineyard Christians are Christians is rather strange, since they are also evangelicals. They are definitely not a cult.

As to the issue about the poll, what was stated is how can anyone take a genuine poll without getting to know the person. I called it a SHAM POLL because only God knows the hearts. You can't take a poll on the heart condition of anyone. Millions call themselves Christians, but perhaps only a small fraction have a genuine relationship to Christ. Only God knows.
 
smaller said:
It was you who inserted that (possibly) Vineyard members (if there ever was such) were only 2% legit believers.
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I'm sorry but that style of assertion, off the top of the head, is not usually found in people I have come to know as grounded Christians, maybe you could quote what I absolutely do not recall ever saying in the string? Dealing truthfully is always better than off the top.
 
Malachi said:
I'm just fine. To ask whether Vineyard Christians are Christians is rather strange, since they are also evangelicals. They are definitely not a cult.

As to the issue about the poll, what was stated is how can anyone take a genuine poll without getting to know the person. I called it a SHAM POLL because only God knows the hearts. You can't take a poll on the heart condition of anyone. Millions call themselves Christians, but perhaps only a small fraction have a genuine relationship to Christ. Only God knows.
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And I recall stating it was taken Double Blind to achieve as closes as possible true results. And that having been admitted by both the Barna People and myself, it is in no fashion a sham because a sham is based on a lie and to the best of my ability I steer as clear as I can away from my largest continual sin. And to believe I was not called a liar in that declaration is, simply put, uneducated at the very best.

I know that in this movement into Relativity the World is working to redefine every word we can speak but that results in lies and nothing more. It is just like a few members on the forums I frequent that have taken screen names such as monster or animal and then, without them even intending to, the longer they sport the name, the more they become like the name. Words, names and other words, have meaning and my dad lived in the mid-west during the thirties, the era of the Great Sham Purveyors and being his boy I have nothing to do with such liars, to the best of my ability.

I do wish for the fifties once more because as backward as silly kids think it was, there was a crystal clear line between truth and lie but the left has blurred the snot out of that.
 
th1b.taylor said:
Smaller, the survey was conducted Cross Denominational. Please read to comprehended. I am not trying to be rude but so many have become idiots today and it seems to be rubbing off our youth onto our seniors and the qualifier is included in my OP.

I'm not even certain there was a Vineyard Movement in the Eighties but I am certain that if the people in that movement we members of the Church, the Body of the Christ, then they were included in the numbers.

You are attempting to make a spot argument that has from almost nothing to absolutely nothing to do with the OP. The better than 98% and the less than 2% numbers cover the Church, not some small church group.

Today the so called, Body of Christ is filled with so many self-centered liars that every one of the faithful should be concerned. We all have run upon more than one if we have been members of any Church Family for a year or more and we have become so sin-riddled that we inore the fruit we are instructed in Matthew 7 to judge, we are becoming Worldly Idiots.
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It's doubtful The Vineyard was included in any of that. In the early 80's, they were just getting started. Today, I believe they number somewhere around 2, 000 congregations, and still aren't included on many lists.
 
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