The Virgin of the Lilies

[bibleberean]

Psalms 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Psalms 115:5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

Psalms 115:6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

Psalms 115:7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

Psalms 115:8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

 

[bibleberean]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus is our mediator not some false goddess.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Jesus is our advocate:

We don't need a mythological being of the RCC and other cults.

Jesus reconciled us to God.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

No mention of the false goddess of the RCC and her sister cults.

Behold, the "Queen of Heaven"!

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I'd have thought one of those polemics would have been sufficient catharsis, but here we have three consecutive posts of essentially the same content.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

King James blows that translation- it accurately rendered 'ministry of reconciliation.'

So, since we have the ministry of reconciliation, so does Mary.
Point one.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Let's pick up the context- The way you've quoted it, it's as if there is no intercession done on the part of people except Christ. Not so
1 Timothy 2:1

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Oh, look, we ALL have a ministry of intercession to go with the ministry of reconciliation. Point two

We'll pick up the rest later- suffice to say, these ministries you have attempted to deny Mary, you will have to deny all.

 

[bibleberean]

Changing the word mediator to intercessor does a grave injustice to the following verse.


1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The twisting of words to change what God has said is an old trick from the father of lies...

Only Jesus can be a mediator between God and man because God is one... and you and me ain't him...

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

"All under sin" That includes the sinner Mary! Get it? :smt064

This is not by the faith of the devil goddess of the cults!

And this should be apparent to anyone except those under the sway of Satan...

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

We are not reconciling the world to God! We are spreading the word that Christ has paid the price for sin and that we can be reconciled to God through Him!

What rank heresy! What a filthy slap in the face to Our only God and Saviour Jesus Christ!

This issue may not mean that much to some of the luke warm "I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings" wimpy Christians on this forum but to many of us it is the lowest form of idolatry!

Serve your false "Queen of Heaven"!

I am going to serve the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

 

[Pelagia]

Lyric's Dad,

That is your example of intercession? That is weak. So what? She asked the Lord to do something, knowing He could. Notice she did not do anything. I am surprised the "holy traditions" have not made it so but this is just a case where Mary stepped into a situation and pointed to Jesus, and not herself. People should consider this and take an example from it.

You're right. She pointed to Jesus. He is the One to worship. And Christ, who is to be worshipped also chose this woman to be His precious mother. Is it right to belittle the woman that God chose to be His mother? If God chose her, shouldn't she be honored?

That is your example of intercession? That is weak. So what? She asked the Lord to do something, knowing He could.

She asked Him to do something...for the sake of the people at the wedding. That is called intercession, even in this insignificant situation.

Notice she did not do anything.

She asked. That is an action. She could have kept silent.

I am surprised the "holy traditions" have not made it so but this is just a case where Mary stepped into a situation and pointed to Jesus, and not herself. People should consider this and take an example from it.

The holy traditions do recognize that Christ is the One to worship as God, the Messiah. In Orthodoxy, we don't worship the mother of God...we acknoledge her place, as the mother of God, just as the Bible has expressed it.

Since the RCC does not stick to what God has to say but instead what man does through traditions, they have been able to create many great and wondrous things like Mary worship, indulgences, transubstantiation, pope idolatry, and so many other wonderful twistings of what God truly gave to us. Since the RCC does not stick to what God has to say but instead what man does through traditions,

The RCC follows what they have created, which is not tradition. The tradition is the true teachings of Christ passed down from the Apostles onto their predecessors. You should look them up...they are quite interesting.

Okay fine. What has come about because of these traditions of the RCC is people in hell. These acts have taken people away from the grace of God and taken them to a man made religious system where you can buy people out of an invented purgatory or wipe clean the sins you have engaged in this past week. It has created millions of people who parade the image of Mary through the streets and hold her as co-redemptrix. Who pray to her and hold her in such high esteem that Jesus is taken back a notch. It has created people who hold the word of the current pope, which changes with each one, in higher esteem then the revealed Word of God. It has created a lot of mess where people are not seeking and finding the God of the Holy Bible but the god of the catholic tradition.

You are sooo right. I was catholic before. It was bogus.


Vic wrote:

There's little doubt she continued on after Jesus' death and Assention. She is mentioned by Luke in Acts. If there is a recording of her life and death, please, point me to it. I'm here to learn. Seriously.

I typed up on search: dormition of the theotokos. This is one of many sites. Check out the others, if you like. My point is, basically, that a tradition for 2000 years, despite mal-practice of many clergy, still does not deny the facts of events. It happened. Look up more sites and see for yourself.

http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/saints. ... tentid=165

In Christ,

Pelagia

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Changing the word mediator to intercessor does a grave injustice to the following verse.


1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I did no changing of anything. You insist that the mediation of which we speak, which is intercession, is the mediation of which only Christ does.

The twisting of words to change what God has said is an old trick from the father of lies...

While I acknowledge you have twisted my words here, I don't attribute your mistake to Satan- I attribute it to your blind hatred of all things relating to Catholicism.

Only Jesus can be a mediator between God and man because God is one... and you and me ain't him...

No one is arguing this point, only you- this is a strawman. Our contention is that there are many intercessors, some more effective and faithful than others.

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

"All under sin" That includes the sinner Mary! Get it? :smt064

You're barking up the wrong tree there- I've never claimed Mary to be sinless.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

We are not reconciling the world to God! We are spreading the word that Christ has paid the price for sin and that we can be reconciled to God through Him!

In plain black and white, we have been given the ministry of reconciliation. That you wish to deny or contextualize this does not move me.

This issue may not mean that much to some of the luke warm "I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings" wimpy Christians on this forum but to many of us it is the lowest form of idolatry!

Thanks for your opinion. I'm not shy about identifying your Landmarkist cult as complete fiction and rampant apostasy either.

However, all done in reason and respect, and without malice.

Serve your false "Queen of Heaven"!

I am going to serve the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

Cool it with the drama, Robert, I serve none other than Christ. Shouting your opinion has no more effect than stating it in a reasonable voice.

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks for the link Pelagia. I'll read it during lunch today.

I'm still confused about one thing people...

[quote:b53c2]Notice she did not do anything.

She asked. That is an action. She could have kept silent. [/quote:b53c2]

Where did she ask? :-?

 

[bibleberean]

"O Immaculate and wholly-pure Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the world, hope of those who are in despair: You are the joy of the saints; you are the peacemaker between sinners and God; you are the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of the world; you are the consolation of the world, the ransom of slaves, the comfortress of the afflicted"

St. Ephrem
A Marian Prayer Book : A Treasury of Prayers, Hymns, and Meditations / edited by Pamela Moran Imprint Ann Arbor, Mich. : Servant Publications, c1991, BX2160.2 .M37 1991, p. 226

St. Ephrem is a heretick and an idolater along with all those who pray this prayer.

First Mary had other children and was not a virgin. She was not without sin so she was not Immaculate.

Second Mary is not the Queen of the World.

Lie from the pit of hell and the vomit of satan worshippers.

There is no scriptural backing for this blasphemous statement.

Third Mary is not my hope. The real Mary had hope in Jesus just like the rest of us. She was blessed "among women" not blessed above them...

1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Fourth Mary is not the "peace maker" between sinners and God.

Jesus is my peace not the devil goddess of Rome and her harlot sisters.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Fifth Mary is not my advocate and she is not my "haven".

Jesus is my advocate and He is in whom I hope and take refuge. There is not a single scripture that suggests we should run to Mary for either of these things.

Sixth Mary is not the consolation of the world

Only Jesus can have that title. He is the only one who is our consolation.

It was His suffering, shed blood, death burial and resurrection which gives true believers hope.

Seventh Mary is not the "ransom of slaves".

That lie detracts and cheapens the price Jesus paid for Mary's sins and ours.

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Mary is not even mentioned in the epistles. She is never spoken of as someone that we should run to in time of trouble.

This has led to the blasphemous tradition of keeping Jesus sitting on mom's lap as a helpless babe in the apostate churches art.

The goddess worshippers are so callous as a result of their heathen practices they have become blind to the insidious insult this is to Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father.

The devil goddess that the idolaters promote is not ever mentioned as sitting next to God.

Mary is crowned and Jesus is reduced to a perpetual child sitting on mum's lap... disgusting!

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Regarding the 'helpless Jesus sitting in Mary's lap:"

Though He was, factually, just exactly that at one point in history, by His choice.

That being said, Orthodox Icons depict Christ as a child with adult proportions, to signify that even as a child He was more than just a (helpless) child.
"The child grew in stature and wisdom."

He is pictured as a child with Mary, for that is how she should be depicted. We have no icons of her without Him at the center of the icon. What Mary is/was she is/was because of Him. It was her Savior in her womb and in her arms; we are not confused about this.

All the statements that Ephraim made about Mary were in relation to the One she bore. Just as I have a ministry of reconciliation because He reconciled me, Mary - and we- are hope, for we have been given hope. She is a peacemaker, as are we, because of Him. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of the Living God."

Everything that she is, she is in relation to Him.

Regarding her ever-Virginity and child-bearing:
The so-called biblical 'proof' for Mary having other children has been roundly refuted.

 

[bibleberean]

Look at this idol.

It shows Mary wearing a crown. Did Mary wear a crown while holding Jesus on her lap? The flimsy double talk of the "Queen of Heaven" worshippers should not be bought for one second.

Jesus was a baby but He is no longer a child. He is a man sitting at the right hand of His Father in heaven.

This painting should disgust any worshipper of the one true God.

Eprhrem is a heretick. He called Mary the "Queen of the world" the "hope of those in despair" the "peacemaker between sinners and God".

Horse dung! Cow manure! That is what that is!

The twisters of scripture say that Ephrem said these things only in Mary's relationship with the son?

All Christians are saints and have a relationship with the Son. Should we address other believers as "peacemakers between sinners and God, The consolation of the world, the "refuge of sinners, ransom of slaves."

No! Believers point to Christ not to Mary! That is the obvious difference.

The answer to that is clear! No way!

I am disgusted with the slippery serpentine excuses made to defend unbiblical practices.

I refuse to worship or honor the "Queen of Heaven"!

I will call the real Mary "blessed among women" as the bible states.

I will not give her unbiblical titles. I will not run to her for comfort.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

We have been turned from idols. There are those who would turn us back to them.

 

[Pelagia]

Vic,

I don't have my Bible with me today(since I forgot it in my other purse, when I switched - I usually carry a pocket book size). But, I recall, it was in Luke, second verse, I think. It's the wedding at Cana, where Christ performed his first miracle. Hope this helps.

In Christ,

Pelagia

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Look at this idol.

It shows Mary wearing a crown. Did Mary wear a crown while holding Jesus on her lap? The flimsy double talk of the "Queen of Heaven" worshippers should not be bought for one second.

I urge you to run the word 'crown' through the word search on any reputable bible site, Robert. You will find there that believers receive crown of life, Paul receives crown, elders cast their crowns before Christ...
You see, people who will be wearing crowns in heaven often eschew them here on earth. Simple people, unassuming- but in heaven, memorialized.

Many who are last will be first.
Imagine this, an adolescent girl, little more than property in Israel, being the Chosen Vessel.

Jesus was a baby but He is no longer a child. He is a man sitting at the right hand of His Father in heaven.

Jesus is in fact the child we receive, the poor we feed, the thirsty we give drink, and so forth. He said so. God is humble. We see Him as both a Lamb who was slain, and He who has a flaming, fiery sword proceeding from His mouth in one single book.

Your offense is not scripturally founded.

Eprhrem is a heretick. He called Mary the "Queen of the world" the "hope of those in despair" the "peacemaker between sinners and God".

Horse dung! Cow manure! That is what that is!

I've already explained the quotes- if you don't agree, then feel free to continue to kick your way through the Lord's pasture. Along the way, one definitely finds dung heaps. What remains to be interpreted is who is leaving them.

The twisters of scripture say that Ephrem said these things only in Mary's relationship with the son?

No, Robert, the twisters of scripture deny the greatness of God manifested in men. It was His choice to lift us up, it is His work, and we celebrate every nuance of it.

All Christians are saints and have a relationship with the Son. Should we address other believers as "peacemakers between sinners and God, The consolation of the world, the "refuge of sinners, ransom of slaves."

To a degree, yes- depending on if they actually participate in the making of peace, and in reconciliation.

All men are created equal- not all finish that way.
Any other perspective is pluralistic, relativistic nonsense.

No! Believers point to Christ not to Mary! That is the obvious difference.

The answer to that is clear! No way!

Mary herself points to Christ, if you will note.
I agree on this much- we should point to Christ. Remember that the bible points to Christ, not the other way around.

I am disgusted with the slippery serpentine excuses made to defend unbiblical practices.

I refuse to worship or honor the "Queen of Heaven"!

I will call the real Mary "blessed among women" as the bible states.

I will not give her unbiblical titles. I will not run to her for comfort.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

We have been turned from idols. There are those who would turn us back to them.

Who here asked you to do anything about Mary at all? Certainly wasn't me.
I would ask that you refrain from the term 'twist' the scriptures, for it implies malevolent intent. I assure you, I have no such intent. Rather than bluster, please provide suitable rebuttal to my/orthodox understanding of scripture.

Thanks
James

 

[Vic C.]

Vic,

I don't have my Bible with me today(since I forgot it in my other purse, when I switched - I usually carry a pocket book size). But, I recall, it was in Luke, second verse, I think. It's the wedding at Cana, where Christ performed his first miracle. Hope this helps.

In Christ,

Pelagia

I'm sorry; it was a rhetorical question. The weding was written about in John. I don't believe it was recorded anywhere else in the Bible. I originally posted this on page one of this thread...

...All I learn from the Wedding passage is that Jesus was obedient in honoring God's commandments, namely the Fifth Commandment. Oh, I learn this too... Mary never asked Jesus to turn the water into wine. She only informed Him they had no wine.

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
John 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it....

I brought this up because so many here are under the assumption Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. :-?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I brought this up because so many here are under the assumption Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

Here's what I find interesting: it seems like most people associate intercession with specific requests- ie, heal Bill of yyyy, please convince President Bush to stop doing xxxx, and so on. In point of fact, we don't even sometimes know how to pray.

Mary interceded on the behalf of the host and guests at the wedding. It is not surprising that only John included this, since of all the apostles, he knew Mary best. You recall, he took her to be his mother.

James

 

[bibleberean]

Bend Tenderly Over Our Wounds

Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)

(Pontiff 1939-1958)

Blessed Art Thou: A Treasury of Marian Prayers and Devotions / Richard J. Beyer Imprint Notre Dame, IN : Ave Maria Press, c1996, BX2160.2 B46 1996, p. 134-135.

"...prayer, dedicated to Mary Immaculate, was composed ... for the Marian year of 1954, which was proclaimed to mark the centenary of the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception." p. 134.

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe.

O crystal Fountain of Faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of All Holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of Evil and Death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!


We have the true Comforter with us always to do what this blasphemous prayer states that the devil goddess does.

It is the Holy Spirit not the unholy spirit of the false Mary that convicts the world of sin.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jesus didn't say and "oh yeah, and the spirit of my mommy is going to convict the world of sin and point you to me...

Anyone that teaches otherwise is either deluded a liar or both.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Note: It is when "He comes" not when "she comes".

The antichrist pope's prayer ends like this:

...."Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!"
Amen.

Mary is not the "conqueress of death".

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

I don't need the harlot church and her false Mary to obtain anything for me.

Jesus has already obtained everything for the true believer.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Habakkuk 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

 

[Soma-Sight]

If you really think about it.....

If Mary is a worthless sinner than her WOMB is full of sin!

That would put Christ in the womb of a sinner!

it would make Christ a sinner by default just like Protestants calim we all are from the first day we pop out of the mom!

Sin begats sin begats sin..... according to Augustines "Original Sin" doctrine.

I can see that there is a powerful reason why people believe Mary is Holy.

Because she is God's mother!

 

[bibleberean]

If you really think about it.....

If Mary is a worthless sinner than her WOMB is full of sin!

That would put Christ in the womb of a sinner!

it would make Christ a sinner by default just like Protestants calim we all are from the first day we pop out of the mom!

Sin begats sin begats sin..... according to Augustines "Original Sin" doctrine.

I can see that there is a powerful reason why people believe Mary is Holy.

Because she is God's mother!

Well then I guess Mary's mother and her mother were sinless too then.

Mary was a sinner and she knew it. She needed to be saved from the wages of sin.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Does it say all have sinned except Mary?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Does it say all have sinned except Mary?

Soma, are you a Sabbath keeping, Roman Catholic Hindu now? :D

 

[Soma-Sight]

Mary was a sinner and she knew it. She needed to be saved from the wages of sin.

Maybe she was saved due to her being the Mother of God Himself!

How could it possibly be otherwise!

Can you really see Christ casting His own mom in the eternal pit of black hellfire?

(Of course this is all my own subjective view, bear that in mind!)

Soma, are you a Sabbath keeping, Roman Catholic Hindu now?

No I am just trying to view things from every angle!

Did you know that intelligence is determined by the number of neural synapses you have in your brain?

The more ways you look at the SAME problem the more intelligent you become!

This would be a good new topic!

 

[Vic C.]

Here's what I find interesting: it seems like most people associate intercession with specific requests- ie, heal Bill of yyyy, please convince President Bush to stop doing xxxx, and so on. In point of fact, we don't even sometimes know how to pray.

Mary interceded on the behalf of the host and guests at the wedding. It is not surprising that only John included this, since of all the apostles, he knew Mary best. You recall, he took her to be his mother.

James

I need to know... where is the interceding or intervention in this statement:

"They have no wine."

How far are you people willing to stretch things just to "prove" Mary is an intercessor between God and us?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did you know that intelligence is determined by the number of neural synapses you have in your brain?

The more ways you look at the SAME problem the more intelligent you become!

This would be a good new topic!

Have you ever heard this before?

"the definition of insane: Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

:

All kidding aside, Soma, please familiarize yourself with this passage. I'm sure you have read it before.

Proverbs 3:5-6

 

[Soma-Sight]

Good post on that poverb vic...

But remember this verse?

Solomon's Wisdom
29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.

God GAVE Solomon his great wisdom!

I hope you are not implying that intelligence is unbilical?