The Virgin of the Lilies

[bibleberean]

Mary Worship?

A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)

June 2001

Excerpt:

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html

DEVOTION TO MARY

"If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her.

Jesus said, "[W]here your treasure is there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:34) Some statues of Mary have real crowns made of gold. The web sites listed in the Notes show pictures of statues of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes wearing crowns. The statues in the pictures are replicas, and their crowns are ceramic and painted gold. But the crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.

Vast sums of money are spent on some special statues of Mary. For example, the statue of Our Lady of the Pillar in Saragossa, Spain has a crown made of 25 pounds of gold and diamonds, with so many diamonds that you can hardly see the gold. In addition, it has six other crowns of gold, diamonds and emeralds. It has 365 mantles which are embroidered with gold and covered with roses of diamonds and other precious stones. It has 365 necklaces made of pearls and diamonds, and six chains of gold set with diamonds. (Note 6)

In Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico, preparations are underway to construct a huge statue of Our Lady of the Rosary. Inside the base of the statue there will be chapels, conference rooms, apartments, a food court, and radio and TV stations. There will also be observation decks. This statue will be part of a 500-acre "Mystical City" complex. According to an article in "Caribbean Business," this statue "will top at 1,500 feet". According to an article by the Associated Press, the statue will be 305 feet high. (Note 7) The discrepancy in numbers can be explained by looking at the Statue of Liberty, which is a 151 foot statue on top of a 154 foot base. Some sources say that the Statue of Liberty is 305 feet high (which includes the height of the base) and some say that it is 151 feet high (which is the height of the actual statue). What we probably have in Sabana Grande is a 305 foot statue with a 1,200 foot base.

I have personally participated in American processions which honored Mary. We walked through the streets following a statue of Mary which was carried on a platform, high up where it was clearly visible. We sang songs in Mary’s honor. We prayed rosaries and other prayers to her. These were small processions. At Fatima, Portugal, crowds of over a million people gather on the anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. The celebration includes a procession of a million people following a statue of Mary and singing her praises.

Isaiah 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Isaiah 46:6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.

Isaiah 46:7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.

 

[stovebolts]

[oopps....

 

[stovebolts]

I brought this up because so many here are under the assumption Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

Vic, Please know that what I'm about to write is only an assumption. That being said,
When you were a kid, did your mother ever say, "Vic, your bed isn't made".
And what did you do? I'm sure you went right up and made your bed. Now, did your mom tell you to go make your bed? We'll, in a round about way she might as well have.

So, I don't see it that far fetched... "Jesus, they're out of wine"... Do you honestly think that Jesus didn't know that they were out of wine? Perhaps like your bed it may have been, but I don't get the feeling that Mary was "Just letting Him know"...

Again, just my opinion, but try the same phase with different voice inflections as your wife tells you just before you come home from work that your out of milk.
BTW, Would you say back to her, "Woman..." te he he :-D

 

[Vic C.]

Good post on that poverb vic...

But remember this verse?

Solomon's Wisdom
29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.

God GAVE Solomon his great wisdom!

I hope you are not implying that intelligence is unbilical?

If I remember correctly, Solomon asked for wisdom in prayer. God granted it to him because he was wise enough to ask for it in the first place. :-D

I am not implying intelligence is unbilical. Intelligence minus the Sprit's guiding is though. Plus, I don't always equate intellegence with wisdom. We humans are very intelligent sometimes; but we aren't always very smart. :

 

[Vic C.]

Vic, Please know that what I'm about to write is only an assumption. That being said, When you were a kid, did your mother ever say, "Vic, your bed isn't made".

And what did you do? I'm sure you went right up and made your bed. Now, did your mom tell you to go make your bed? We'll, in a round about way she might as well have.

Whoa Jeff, you give me way too much credit. I was just as much a literalist then as I am now. I drive my coworkers crazy because I assume nothing. You want something done by me... "ask, and ye shall receive" :-D

So, I don't see it that far fetched... "Jesus, they're out of wine"... Do you honestly think that Jesus didn't know that they were out of wine? Perhaps like your bed it may have been, but I don't get the feeling that Mary was "Just letting Him know"...

I don't believe He even had to be told. That is my point. He knew what He had to do and didn't need to be told my His mother.

Maybe I'm just dealing with semantics here. I'm sure it was implied, but we shouldn't go saying Mary told Him to do it when the verses say no such thing.

Again, just my opinion, but try the same phase with different voice inflections as your wife tells you just before you come home from work that your out of milk.

See my first answer. :D

BTW, Would you say back to her, "Woman..." te he he :-D

I wouldn't when I was young, but I probably would now. :

 

[Pelagia]

Vic wrote:

I brought this up because so many here are under the assumption Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

I guess we have different angles on the subject. I was referring to it as Mary, being the mother of God, also is a person to honor. She mentioned the lack of wine to Christ, and since we all know that Christ is God(I assume everybody here agrees with that), that Christ being God, would have understood what she was getting at(to put it in plain terms). But, the fact that it happened(and I assume everybody here believes the events of the Bible), shows that a lesson of consideration of the mother of God is being taught.

And, don't you think that God being God, put the fifth commandment into place, knowing all events until the end of time? After all, He created the whole world and salvation to be. Don't you think that He already had it planned that His Son would be born of a created woman and that she would be honored as His mother and for the fact that the fifth commandment is His rule? Follow the fifth commandment; apply it towards your mother, but that also means that you have to respect the fifth commandment when it comes to His mother too, don't you?

If the mother of God was to be treated with such vile, as Bibleberean has displayed, then I think the Bible would have reflected a completely different position.

I don't believe He even had to be told. That is my point. He knew what He had to do and didn't need to be told my His mother.

The lesson that is missed here, is the fact that it wasn't that Christ needed to be told, it's that He wants us to see that His mother should be respected. As He was always an example for us, on how to behave as Christians, He also set an example for us about how He wanted us to see His mother.


Soma-sight wrote:

If Mary is a worthless sinner than her WOMB is full of sin!

She was cleansed of the sins of man during the time that the Archangel Gabriel visited her and proclaimed her blessedness:

And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, hightly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you amongst women. (Luke 1:28)

Now, with this proclamation in the Bible, which people here say that they follow...how can you ignore a passage like that???

And this part: For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generation will call me blessed. (Luke: 1;48)

Well, it seems that some people here, who say they worship God and read the Bible, seem to omit this passage...a passage that is in the Bible that they claim is the ONLY truth.

Please, Soma-Sight, understand that I am not talking about you. I just wanted to address the comment you made.

Also, if anyone questions how she could be cleansed, I offer the following passage:

And the angel answered and said to her, " The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will becalled the Son of God" (Luke:1;35).

The Holy Spirit cannot be effected by our sinful nature. The Holy Spirit cleanses us with His presence. Therefore, what was sinful, by birth, the original sin(namely, seperation from God) was cleansed at the touch of the Holy Spirit.

Vic wrote:

Maybe I'm just dealing with semantics here. I'm sure it was implied, but we shouldn't go saying Mary told Him to do it when the verses say no such thing.

I hate to be a parrot, but I'll say it once more...she told Him about the lack of wine. Why did He have to be told...because He(being God) wanted to give us the understanding that His mother has a place of respect. It's not about Him being told...it's about US being taught that she is there as an intercessor to Him. He showed us that she has a place to say something to Him.

In Christ,

Pelagia

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Mary was a sinner and she knew it. She needed to be saved from the wages of sin.

Maybe she was saved due to her being the Mother of God Himself!

How could it possibly be otherwise!

Soma, to be saved means you have faith in Jesus Christ only. Just because Mary gave birth to the Savior, does not mean she automatically had faith in Him. Miracles do not beget faith. I think Israel wandering in the desert for 40 years and the sin of that nation as recorded in the Bible shows that with all clarity. Mary needed to come to a saving faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, like anyone else to be saved. I have no doubt she did but it was not because she gave birth to the earthly tent of God. It is because God called her to repentance through Jesus Christ.



BB quoted;

...."Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!"
Amen.

If this is not one of the most disgusting displays of worshiping a false god, I do not know what is.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Soma-Sight":f89f6]

Mary was a sinner and she knew it. She needed to be saved from the wages of sin.

Maybe she was saved due to her being the Mother of God Himself!

How could it possibly be otherwise!

Soma, to be saved means you have faith in Jesus Christ only. Just because Mary gave birth to the Savior, does not mean she automatically had faith in Him. Miracles do not beget faith. I think Israel wandering in the desert for 40 years and the sin of that nation as recorded in the Bible shows that with all clarity. Mary needed to come to a saving faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, like anyone else to be saved. I have no doubt she did but it was not because she gave birth to the earthly tent of God. It is because God called her to repentance through Jesus Christ. [/quote:f89f6]
So you're arguing that bearing Jesus, the Lamb of God, was not a 'saving' act, as Soma implies? Now I see that Soma knows the scripture better than you
1 Tim 2:15

But women will be saved through childbearing and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.

If women can be saved by bearing children who are not God, and by living decent lives-, then what shall we say of a woman who bore the Eternal Fire and who lived a life of piety and humility?

BB quoted;

...."Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!"
Amen.

If this is not one of the most disgusting displays of worshiping a false god, I do not know what is.

And, just as soon as you finish retranslating Paul's verse to Timothy (above) to make it not say what it does, we'll answer this
:

 

[Pelagia]

OC,

You'll have to go the rest of the way without me. You are truly more patient than I. I see no point in continuing with their ridiculous remarks.

They are so seriously blind to the truth, that it's tragic. So, so tragic. If they don't believe in the sanctity of Jesus Christ's mother, then how do they expect to get into His Kingdom? They don't even know the events of her death and resurrection!

It's really pathetic how they pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe and disregard the rest.

In Christ,

Pelagia

 

[Pelagia]

OC,

You'll have to go the rest of the way without me. You are truly more patient than I. I see no point in continuing with their ridiculous remarks.

They are so seriously blind to the truth, that it's tragic. So, so tragic. If they don't believe in the sanctity of Jesus Christ's mother, then how do they expect to get into His Kingdom? They don't even know the events of her death and resurrection!

It's really pathetic how they pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe and disregard the rest.

In Christ,

Pelagia

 

[Orthodox Christian]

OC,

You'll have to go the rest of the way without me. You are truly more patient than I. I see no point in continuing with their ridiculous remarks.

They are so seriously blind to the truth, that it's tragic. So, so tragic. If they don't believe in the sanctity of Jesus Christ's mother, then how do they expect to get into His Kingdom? They don't even know the events of her death and resurrection!

It's really pathetic how they pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe and disregard the rest.

In Christ,

Pelagia

I heard Fr. Peter Gilquist describe Orthodoxy as "all the parts of the Evangelical bible not marked by a highlighter."

It isn't just that they do not esteem Mary: rather, they esteem nothing other than a spiritualized Jesus. Missing from their theology is the awesome and life-giving power of Christ's divine condescension. Missing is the sharing and partaking in the Divine Nature. Missing is redeeming of the material world and the raising of humanity again to the state before the Fall (redeemed from the curse).

In their theology, things are being done to and through men by Jesus. There is no true co-labour: we are merely willing puppets. Absent from their view is the persistence of free will; absent from their theology is a present-time invasion of the Kingdom.

To them, there is no redemption of Creation at the river Jordan, when the Holy One stepped in the waters and cleansed them by His Holy flesh. And this is the crux of their error: they are crypto-Gnostics. They sneer at the notion of man becoming divine; they gasp at the thought of honoring anything wearing flesh; they see the world as a place of foreboding, and fallenness, a place to be escaped from.

Their places of worship are austere: four walls and a talking head lecturing all of the people who supposedly should be able to read and understand for themselves.

I see this all as a profound lack of self-insight on their part- and it's no small wonder....they are not in the least contemplative. This is why some of these on this forum and elsewhere always lecture and never listen; always pray for and never ask for prayer; always learn but never come to the knowledge of the truth.

James

 

[Lyric's Dad]

OC,

You'll have to go the rest of the way without me. You are truly more patient than I. I see no point in continuing with their ridiculous remarks.

They are so seriously blind to the truth, that it's tragic. So, so tragic. If they don't believe in the sanctity of Jesus Christ's mother, then how do they expect to get into His Kingdom? They don't even know the events of her death and resurrection!

It's really pathetic how they pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe and disregard the rest.

In Christ,

Pelagia

Thank you for proving the fact that you worship Mary. To say that you have to believe in the sanctity of Mary to enter Heaven is plenty of proof. That is much more then the buzz word the catholics like to use of "venerating" her. It is worship and it is heresy. Thanks for finally being honest.

Oh, and now she has been resurrected too? :roll:

 

[bibleberean]

Is Christ our rock and our refuge?

Look at who Catholics run to in time of need.

Novena Prayers To Our Lady of the Snows

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful; O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen


"Never hesitate to look to Mary, the Mother of the Holy Family."
Pope John Paul II, 'The Pope of the Rosary'

True believers look to Jesus for safety for protection as a mediator as an advocate.

You will not find a passage of scripture where a single believer looks to Mary for protection, guidance or mercy...

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

This is where the bald faced lie of Mary being a "co-laborer" in the work of redemption with Christ has led the harlot church.


Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894:

"When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered him up to the divine justice, dying with him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow."

Plus XII, in a radio broadcast in 1946:

"Mary, for having been associated with the King of Martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the Redemption."


Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849:

"For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary."


Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body."

The word of God says we are to look to Jesus who has obtained eternal life for us. Not to the devil of those steeped in idolatry:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Show me where the bible says Mary was "once offered with Christ to bear the sins of many".

I don't look for the Catholic goddess. I look for Jesus!

Did the false Mary of Rome and the un-Orthodox have any thing to do with purging our sins?

Not according to God's word!


Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had ***by Himself*** purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The Lord Jesus Christ purged our sins ***by Himself!***That means that Mary played no part in purging our sins!

Catholics don't look to Jesus they look to Mary first...

Deuteronomy 29:17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Deuteronomy 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

2 Kings 17:12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

This made me laugh. So who's the "VIP?" Is it the lady with the glasses, or the statue?

Is this idolatry? Honoring a piece of cloth??

How about those who bow before a memorial?? (I'v been there, it's truly moving, even to someone who was too young to have gone to Vietnam)

Ok, this must be idolatry

Whatchu think?

 

[bibleberean]

What do I think? I think Satan is a clever adversary... That is what I think.

What did you think about this?

Is Christ our rock and our refuge?

Look at who Catholics run to in time of need.

Novena Prayers To Our Lady of the Snows

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful; O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen


"Never hesitate to look to Mary, the Mother of the Holy Family."
Pope John Paul II, 'The Pope of the Rosary'

True believers look to Jesus for safety for protection as a mediator as an advocate.

You will not find a passage of scripture where a single believer looks to Mary for protection, guidance or mercy...

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

This is where the bald faced lie of Mary being a "co-laborer" in the work of redemption with Christ has led the harlot church.


Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894:

"When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered him up to the divine justice, dying with him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow."

Plus XII, in a radio broadcast in 1946:

"Mary, for having been associated with the King of Martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the Redemption."


Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849:

"For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary."


Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body."

The word of God says we are to look to Jesus who has obtained eternal life for us. Not to the devil of those steeped in idolatry:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Show me where the bible says Mary was "once offered with Christ to bear the sins of many".

I don't look for the Catholic goddess. I look for Jesus!

Did the false Mary of Rome and the un-Orthodox have any thing to do with purging our sins?

Not according to God's word!


Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had ***by Himself*** purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The Lord Jesus Christ purged our sins ***by Himself!***That means that Mary played no part in purging our sins!

Catholics don't look to Jesus they look to Mary first...

Deuteronomy 29:17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Deuteronomy 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

2 Kings 17:12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

 

[fiat]

bibleberean,

Your quotes are taken out of context. If read in the context of the original documents you would find that all marian devotions are primarily Christocentric.

You make frequent reference to Mary's role as "co-laborer"...let's take a look at that.

Mary's "yes" is quite comparable to Abraham's "yes" to the required sacrifice of Isaac. Poor Abraham was OLD as was Sarah, yet he had confidence in the Lord's promise that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars. Isaac comes along and there is great rejoicing, and then the Lord asks Abraham to take his own sons life. Abraham is willing to sacrifice the son that was supposed to be the father of the Jewish people, when an angel intervenes.

Likewise Mary's "yes" could have cost her Joseph, good name, and most likely her life. She had no way of knowing. Here again we see the angel and the "yes." If through saying "yes" Abraham became the father of the Israelites, those bound by the old covenant (blood of Jewish lineage), it stands to reason that through Mary's "yes" she becomes the mother of those bound by the new covenant (blood covenant that is Jesus).

In other words, just as Abraham became father to Israel though the blood lineage, Mary became mother of all who shared in the blood of her son Jesus. Mary seems to allude to this link to Abraham when, right after saying "My soul magnifies the Lord", she says, "according to the promise he made to our ancestors, to Abraham and his descendants forever." ( Lk 1:55). She became mother of Jesus, and thus mother to all who share his blood. Paul appears to speak of this.

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, in order to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children. And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir, through God. (Gal 4:4-7)

In the above passage we see Mary as the mother of Jesus followed by an explanation of us as children. The word "woman" is very significant. It is the title Jesus gave her at Cana (Jn 2:1-11) and at the foot of the Cross (Jn 19:25-27). It was not a derogatory title. It brings us back to the garden of Eden, where Eve was called "woman." (Gen 3:3) Mary was the new Eve. Her "yes" to God is the beginning of the events that let to our redemption from Eve's "no" to God.

 

[fiat]

Continuing the analogy...

Abraham brought his first-born to be offered as a sacrifice to God...Mary did the same at the presentation of Jesus at the Temple. Here Mary receives the promise from Simeon that a "sword of sorrow will pierce her heart." Abraham did not have to see his son die, but Mary did. She watched her son pass through terrible agony and at the foot of the cross experienced the pain of the sword that pierced Christ's heart as He was already dead. Any mother will tell you of the participation of a parent in the slightest sufferings of their child.

Now, where am I going with all this? Quite simply, the title co-redemptrix refers to Mary's fulfillment of St. Paul's words in Colossians, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." It is the call of ALL Christians to participate in this way in the redemptive work of Christ (this is why you may hear Catholics saying "offer it up!" :wink: ), but Mary shared in this in a particular way because she was so intimately united to Christ. It's all a part of the Mystery of Christ's Incarnation. How is it that God could take on human flesh, suffer and die for the sake of souls, and how is it that He would allow us as unworthy as we are to participate in the work of His Mercy?

Mary...you know what the Patriarchs never knew; you have experienced what was never revealed to the Angels; you have heard what the Prophets never heard. In a word, all that was hidden from preceding generations was made known to you; even more, most of these wonders depended on you. (270 A.D., St. Gregory Thaumaturgus)

Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanksgiving for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent? (St. Augustine 430 A.D.)

 

[fiat]

sorry, I forgot a link for my quotes http://davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_medi ... mptrix.htm


Incidently, I love the picture in question. lol. I think the artist did an excellent job in re-emphasizing the Mystery of Christ's Incarnation. All too often (particularly in this age) people seem to want to seperate Christ from his Divinity or from His humanity. The world is much more comfortable seeing Christ as just a "nice guy" with a good message. The Christ child's eyes are piercing. The gaze of a King.
Mary...hmm. What came to mind when I saw it first was that she was "pondering all these things in her heart." Cure's observation was beautiful too. That Christ supports her.

 

[bibleberean]

Catholics can give all the reasons in the world for "Mary worship" but that cannot do it from scripture.

Here is just another example of the fables about the false goddess of the cults.

Remember that God through the apostle Paul warns us of this very thing...

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


Mary Worship?

A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)

June 2001




ASSUMPTION -- "At the end of her life, Mary was taken up ("assumed") body and soul into Heaven. ("Catechism" 966, 974)

There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)

The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have "infallible" popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another "infallible" pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)

CO-MEDIATOR -- Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. ("Catechism" 968-970, 2677)

There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Ephesians 3:12 says, "In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him."

If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us "to the uttermost," (utterly, completely) then He doesn't need Mary's help. If we can approach God with "boldness" and "confidence" because of our faith in Jesus, then we don't need Mary's help either.

QUEEN OF HEAVEN -- God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. ("Catechism" 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. ("Catechism" 971, 2675)

Psalm 148:13 says, "Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven." This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)

When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28)

In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God's praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all."

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Catholics can give all the reasons in the world for "Mary worship" but that cannot do it from scripture.

In case you hadn't been listening, they give no reasons for Mary worship, they don't worship her. Those are your words, and in this you've already lost the debate.

Here is just another example of the fables about the false goddess of the cults.

Remember that God through the apostle Paul warns us of this very thing...

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

You claim to be 'Berean' in your treatment of scripture, yet you blatantly distort the truth about that verse. That verse is not specific, and in fact you've used it to discuss other things you consider heresy. So, when you say this verse refers to "this very thing," you have distorted and misrepresented scripture to suit your agenda.

At best, assuming that your viw of this matter is correct, namely that the Marian theology of the Catholics and Orthodox is wrong, you could say "this is the type of thing Paul warned of in 2 Timothy 4:3-4." As it is, you make it seem as if he had this very issue in mind.

Mary Worship?

A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)

June 2001

"A Former Catholic nun." If here testimony is acceptable, so is Charles Templeton's.

ASSUMPTION -- "At the end of her life, Mary was taken up ("assumed") body and soul into Heaven. ("Catechism" 966, 974)

There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary.

That is correct. The tradition (not dogma in Orthodox) of Mary's assumption is based upon the account in the protoevangelion of St James (non-canonical, but used as scripture for the first 3 centuries of Christian history).

The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D.

That is the subject of much dispute, and not just among liberal scholars. The absence of a reference to the destroyed Temple makes this dating questionable. Also: it is believed by some that the gospel of St John was written after the Apocalypse.

One other thing: That her bodily assumption is not recorded in the Apocalypse is no surprise, as it is NOT a historical account of the Church.
I take it that this former nun was not a scholar.... :

which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)

And Enoch's assumption was not discussed in detail. The account simply says "and he was no more."

The bible makes no declaration about what happened to those Saints raised at the Crucifixion/Resurrection and what happened to them, either.

The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.
In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have "infallible" popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another "infallible" pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)

The protoevangelion was rejected as a work to be read in the Church, not as "heretical." This is due to the fact that only canonical scripture was allowed to be read in the Church, according to canon 24 from the Synod of Carthage.

In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God's praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all."

No, you have to turn to chapter 12, verse 1.