The Wages of Sin is ..... Eternal Life in Hell!

[CP_Mike]

According to Jesus, the soul is separate from the physical body.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Hi Solo,
That depends if you interpret the word 'soul' to mean the person incarnated in a body or 'life' if you are a Hebrew and how Jesus meant it.

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo,
That depends if you interpret the word 'soul' to mean the person incarnated in a body or 'life' if you are a Hebrew and how Jesus meant it.

I realize that the bias of one can confuse the context in which one is attempting to comprehend towards their bias; however, Jesus clearly states that the life can be taken from the body by those on this earth, while God can take the life from the soul as well as from the body. Your definition of life for the word soul does not fit in this regard, no matter how you twist and turn it.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

 

[Drew]

Jesus clearly states that the life can be taken from the body by those on this earth, while God can take the life from the soul as well as from the body. Your definition of life for the word soul does not fit in this regard, no matter how you twist and turn it.

This is an example of the error of "begging the question". This material presumes the very distinction between "soul" and "body" that is the very topic at issue. Of course, CP's view on the nature of the soul (which, incidentally has been competently defended without begging the question) will conflict with such a view.

 

[Solo]

This is an example of the error of "begging the question". This material presumes the very distinction between "soul" and "body" that is the very topic at issue. Of course, CP's view on the nature of the soul (which, incidentally has been competently defended without begging the question) will conflict with such a view.

If one puts his head in a sack and extinguishes all light, he will be unable to see the simple truth in Jesus' statement. Those who are not born again will also not understand the simplicity of this teaching of Jesus, as it is foolishness to them.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

 

[CP_Mike]

I realize that the bias of one can confuse the context in which one is attempting to comprehend towards their bias; however, Jesus clearly states that the life can be taken from the body by those on this earth, while God can take the life from the soul as well as from the body. Your definition of life for the word soul does not fit in this regard, no matter how you twist and turn it.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Hi Solo,
Did you bother to read that link about the uses of 'psuche' in the NT?

I think not!

Here is the same passage as told by Luke with the NIV translation:

Luke 12:4

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

So when does "psuche mean 'soul' and 'psuche' mean life?

From Dr. Tory Hoff:

Christ added a sense of resurrection to the Hebred view of N. Throughout OT times people were afraid of those that sought N in order to destroy. Christ, however, taught: "... do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill P; rather fear him who can destroy both P and body in gehenna." (Mat. 10:28) The Hebrews believed man could kill N; but Christ instead taught that man could not kill P. Even though the Jews might try to tamper with P, ultimately they could not. When teaching his disciples to expect persecution, Christ said, "You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and kinsmen and friends, and some of you they will put to death; you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your P." (Lk. 21:19) The Jews were challenged to see that P could be saved if P would be sacrificed. Christ's disciples learned that God still would keep P safe despite even death. "But we are not of those who shrink and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their P." (Heb. 10:39) The P that was sacrificed would receive a full existence and not the sha­dowy existence of the rephaim.


In context with the rest of Scripture:


This trend in affirming the 'wholeness' of man has had its influence upon Christian philosophy and Biblical studies. An increasing number of Christians point to differences between Hebrew views and those of the Greco-Roman world. The tendency is to emphasize that the ancient Hebrews did not approach man dualistically as have the Greeks nor, by implication, the general public of contemporary Western society. Claude Tresmontant in A Study of Hebrew Thought is representative of this development.

Once again we must be careful to avoid interpreting the Hebrew notion of soul in terms of Platonic dualism. Because they recognized no body-soul dichotomy, the Hebrews did not consider the soul the discarnate thing that we imagine it to be. And it is just because we oppose it to 'body' that we think of it in this way. In Hebrew the soul is the man. Indeed we should not say that man has a soul, but that he is a soul; nor consequently that he has a body, but that he is a body. (p. 94)


So please drop this pagan body soul dualism and return to Gods word!

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo,
Did you bother to read that link about the uses of 'psuche' in the NT?

I think not!

Here is the same passage as told by Luke with the NIV translation:

Luke 12:4

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

So when does "psuche mean 'soul' and 'psuche' mean life?

From Dr. Tory Hoff:

Christ added a sense of resurrection to the Hebred view of N. Throughout OT times people were afraid of those that sought N in order to destroy. Christ, however, taught: "... do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill P; rather fear him who can destroy both P and body in gehenna." (Mat. 10:28) The Hebrews believed man could kill N; but Christ instead taught that man could not kill P. Even though the Jews might try to tamper with P, ultimately they could not. When teaching his disciples to expect persecution, Christ said, "You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and kinsmen and friends, and some of you they will put to death; you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your P." (Lk. 21:19) The Jews were challenged to see that P could be saved if P would be sacrificed. Christ's disciples learned that God still would keep P safe despite even death. "But we are not of those who shrink and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their P." (Heb. 10:39) The P that was sacrificed would receive a full existence and not the sha­dowy existence of the rephaim.


In context with the rest of Scripture:


This trend in affirming the 'wholeness' of man has had its influence upon Christian philosophy and Biblical studies. An increasing number of Christians point to differences between Hebrew views and those of the Greco-Roman world. The tendency is to emphasize that the ancient Hebrews did not approach man dualistically as have the Greeks nor, by implication, the general public of contemporary Western society. Claude Tresmontant in A Study of Hebrew Thought is representative of this development.

Once again we must be careful to avoid interpreting the Hebrew notion of soul in terms of Platonic dualism. Because they recognized no body-soul dichotomy, the Hebrews did not consider the soul the discarnate thing that we imagine it to be. And it is just because we oppose it to 'body' that we think of it in this way. In Hebrew the soul is the man. Indeed we should not say that man has a soul, but that he is a soul; nor consequently that he has a body, but that he is a body. (p. 94)


So please drop this pagan body soul dualism and return to Gods word!

God's Word is clear, and you have taken up residency with a teaching that is foreign to God's Word. Jesus is clear and plain on his teaching of the soul being a separate portion of a person, just as he is the second person of the Godhead.

Your position is suspect when you take a no-name psychologist who wrote a treatise on the soul with an unbiblical perspective, against that of the truth of Jesus Christ as delivered and interpreted by the Holy Spirit.

You would do yourself a much needed favor if you would submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and come into the covenant of grace by which there is no distinction between Jew and non-Jew.

 

[Drew]

Once again we must be careful to avoid interpreting the Hebrew notion of soul in terms of Platonic dualism. Because they recognized no body-soul dichotomy, the Hebrews did not consider the soul the discarnate thing that we imagine it to be. And it is just because we oppose it to 'body' that we think of it in this way. In Hebrew the soul is the man. Indeed we should not say that man has a soul, but that he is a soul; nor consequently that he has a body, but that he is a body.

We have not even begun to address the conceptual problems with dualism that have led (if I am not mistaken) to its outright rejection by the philosophical community. The idea that man is made of "body-stuff" and "mind-stuff" that are of a fundamentally different nature is so rife with inconsistency and is so unworkable that I believe it has been completey abandonned by philosophers.

 

[Solo]

We have not even begun to address the conceptual problems with dualism that have led (if I am not mistaken) to its outright rejection by the philosophical community. The idea that man is made of "body-stuff" and "mind-stuff" that are of a fundamentally different nature is so rife with inconsistency and is so unworkable that I believe it has been completey abandonned by philosophers.

You side-up with the philosophers, and I'll side up with Jesus Christ, and we will see who ends up being on the side of truth.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

 

[guibox]

It is interesting CP that your translation says 'fear whom how has the power to cast you into hell'

That would mean by simple parallellism that 'to kill the soul' means to 'throw one into hell'.

Unfortunately, instead of taking the literal meaning of 'kill' the traditionalist will then try and make 'kill' mean eternal torment, regardless of all the other supporting scripture that say otherwise.

I guess that means that the word 'kill' should mean the same thing when man 'kills the body'. Does that mean that man doesn't actually 'kill' the body but merely 'torments' it?

Words to strongly consider...

 

[Solo]

It is interesting CP that your translation says 'fear whom how has the power to cast you into hell'

That would mean by simple parallellism that 'to kill the soul' means to 'throw one into hell'.

Unfortunately, instead of taking the literal meaning of 'kill' the traditionalist will then try and make 'kill' mean eternal torment, regardless of all the other supporting scripture that say otherwise.

I guess that means that the word 'kill' should mean the same thing when man 'kills the body'. Does that mean that man doesn't actually 'kill' the body but merely 'torments' it?

Words to strongly consider...

You have made another mistake in your assumption due to your bias. Jesus said not to fear those that can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. The bodies of those who will be cast into the lake of fire will be resurrected at the second resurrected and judged. To destroy ones body and soul in hell does not mean to kill them.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

 

[Drew]

You side-up with the philosophers, and I'll side up with Jesus Christ, and we will see who ends up being on the side of truth.

You certainly are consistent in your method of "debate", I will grant you that.

 

[jgredline]

Hi JG,
Thanks for asking.
The notion that 'soul' is something like 'our essence' or 'real person inside' is the core of this debate.
So.
Numbers 23:10..Let me(Nephesh) die the death of the righteous. Let my end be like theirs!
So a 'nephesh' dies whether righteous or not.
What that means to me is when I die, my 'vital life' dies. The actual life itself does not mean my essence or anything else like that. My body is dead. It does not mean afterwards that my existence is extinguished. I hope for the resurrection when Jesus comes back.
So my point with these 'cut and paste' points, links, scriptures is a challenge against the popular definition of 'soul' and neoplatonic dualism. My only interest is that we grasp the original Hebrew ideas about personhood and reject the pagan Greek meanings that pollute christian thought.

Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the sonâ€â€both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

'Nephesh' or 'soul' as it is translated here means 'the whole person' in a physical living form. What this means to me is that a person will die as a result of God's judgement for sin. The righteous soul will live (a long time) and the promise of eternal life after the resurrection.

So, these scriptures blattently explain that 'soul' is not a 'part' of a person that live on, rather that physical death means that the 'nephesh' has died and not gone someplace else. (compare with Job 3: with the Hebrews belief that after death, they were 'Rephaim' in Sheol as in Job 3: and Isiah 14:10).

Once you find the key to understanding the Hebrew position, then all the other scriptures make perfect sense without the contradictions that obviously occur.

CP Its time for the ole KUDEGRA

CP
First lets take a look at Num 23:10 Lets look at the context of this event even though I have explained it to u once before. For the sake of the whole counsel of God, lets Go. Before we get into the study of what this part of scripture says and teaches lets look at these words your hung up on. Then my hope is that you will see that those single words do not make up a scripture.

The Hebrew word for “soul†(nephesh) means “living being.†However, this Hebrew word is a rich one, carrying various nuances of meaning in different contexts. A fundamental mistake beginning Hebrew and Greek students sometimes make is to assume that, if a Hebrew or Greek word is used in a particular way in one verse, it must mean the same thing in all its other uses. But this is simply wrong. The fact is, Hebrew and Greek words can have different nuances of meaning in different contexts. The word nephesh is an example. While the word means “living being†in Genesis 2:7, the word refers to a soul or spirit as distinct from the body in Genesis 35:18. These are two other verses I know you are hung up on, so I saved me the work and fit them into my study here.
OK, when we examine what the whole of Scripture teaches about the soul, it is clear that the Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th Day Adv, Mormons, UR, position is wrong. For example, Revelation 6:9–10 refers to disembodied souls under God’s altar (it would be nonsense to interpret the reference to “soul†in this verse as “living beingâ€Ââ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“I saw underneath the altar the living beings of those who had been slainâ€Âgive me a break:roll: ). First Thessalonians 4:13–17 says Christ will bring with him the souls and spirits of those who are now with him in heaven and will reunite their spirits to resurrection bodies. In Philippians 1:21–23 Paul says it’s better to depart and be with Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:6–8 Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. Clearly, the whole of Scripture teaches that each person has a soul that survives death. There is no way around this my friend.



Now lets look at the definition of this word your hung up on.
New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition: 5315 נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh)
5315. נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (659b); from an unused word; a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion : any(1), anyone(2), anyone*(1), appetite(7), being(1), beings(3), body(1), breath(1), corpse(2), creature(6), creatures(3), dead(1), dead person(2), deadly(1), death(1), defenseless*(1), desire(12), desire*(2), discontented*(1), endure*(1), feelings(1), fierce*(2), greedy*(1), heart(5), heart’s(2), herself(12), Himself(4), himself(19), human(1), human being(1), hunger(1), life(146), life*(1), lifeblood*(2), lives(34), living creature(1), longing*(1), man(4), man’s(1), men*(2), mind(2), Myself(3), myself(2), number(1), ones(1), others(1), ourselves(3), own(1), passion*(1), people(2), people*(1), perfume*(1), person(68), person*(1), persons(19), slave(1), some(1), soul(238), soul’s(1), souls(12), strength(1), themselves(6), thirst(1), throat(2), will(1), wish(1), wishes(1), yourself(11), yourselves(13).

So as you can see as I stated above it has allot of meanings, which is why Context is king.

Lets continue looking at this word a little bit deeper.
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon: 5315 נֶפֶשׁ
5315 נֶפֶשׁ [nephesh /neh·fesh/] n f. From 5314; TWOT 1395a; GK 5883; 753 occurrences; AV translates as “soul†475 times, “life†117 times, “person†29 times, “mind†15 times, “heart†15 times, “creature†nine times, “body†eight times, “himself†eight times, “yourselves†six times, “dead†five times, “will†four times, “desire†four times, “man†three times, “themselves†three times, “any†three times, “appetite†twice, and translated miscellaneously 47 times. 1 soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion. 1a that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man. 1b living being. 1c living being (with life in the blood). 1d the man himself, self, person or individual. 1e seat of the appetites. 1f seat of emotions and passions. 1g activity of mind. 1g1 dubious. 1h activity of the will. 1h1 dubious. 1i activity of the character. 1i1 dubious.

So now lets take a look at the scriptures you used in proper context.


Num 23:1 Then Balaam said to Balak, "Build seven altars for me here, and prepare for me here seven bulls and seven rams."
2 And Balak did just as Balaam had spoken, and Balak and Balaam offered a bull and a ram on each altar. 3 Then Balaam said to Balak, "Stand by your burnt offering, and I will go; perhaps the Lord will come to meet me, and whatever He shows me I will tell you." So he went to a desolate height. 4 And God met Balaam, and he said to Him, "I have prepared the seven altars, and I have offered on each altar a bull and a ram."
5 Then the Lord put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, "Return to Balak, and thus you shall speak." 6 So he returned to him, and there he was, standing by his burnt offering, he and all the princes of Moab.
7 And he took up his oracle and said: "Balak the king of Moab has brought me from Aram, From the mountains of the east. Come, curse Jacob for me,
And come, denounce Israel!
8 "How shall I curse whom God has not cursed? And how shall I denounce whom the Lord has not denounced?
9 For from the top of the rocks I see him,
And from the hills I behold him; There! A people dwelling alone, Not reckoning itself among the nations.
10 "Who can count the dust of Jacob, Or number one-fourth of Israel?
Let me die the death of the righteous, And let my end be like his!"
11 Then Balak said to Balaam, "What have you done to me? I took you to curse my enemies, and look, you have blessed them bountifully!"
12 So he answered and said, "Must I not take heed to speak what the Lord has put in my mouth?"

Now lets take a look at what this means.
Balak took Balaam into a high mountain where he would look down over the tents of Israel. Later, from this same mountain, Moses would take his only look at the Promised Land, and then die (Deut. 34:1, 5). This chapter and the next chapter contain four memorable utterances by Balaam concerning Israel. The first three were preceded by the offering of seven bulls and seven rams as burnt offerings. The first oracle expressed Balaam’s inability to curse a people whom God had not cursed. It predicted for Israel a life of separation from the Gentile nations and a numberless posterity. It pictured Israel as a righteous nation whose eventual destiny was something to be coveted. Balak’s protest against this blessing availed nothing. The prophet had to speak the word of the Lord.
Balak then took Balaam to a different vantage point in hopes that the prophet would see them in a less favorable light
OK, The second oracle assured Balak that God’s original blessing on Israel was unchanged. The first part of verse 21 describes the nation’s position, not its practice. The people were reckoned righteous through faith. So believers today stand before God in all the perfections of His beloved Son. The Lord was with Israel, and the people could shout because He reigned as King in their midst. He had delivered them from Egypt and given them strength. No evil pronouncement against them would come to pass. Instead, the victories Israel would soon win would cause the nations to say, “Oh, what God has done!†. Since Balaam refused to curse the people, Balak ordered him not to bless them either , but the prophet protested that he could only do what the Lord said.
A third time Balak tried to wring a curse out of Balaam, this time from the top of Mount Peor.
Realizing that God was determined to bless Israel, Balaam did not seek to get a message of cursing. He simply looked down over the camp of Israel, and the Spirit of God came upon him, causing him to say things beyond his own wisdom and will.
now I will beging work on EZE.18:4 but I suspect it will be much of the same.

 

[jgredline]

CP
Lets continue with the OLE KUDEGRA
To keep this in context I will print the whole section. As you can see its a proverb.

Ezekiel 18:1-9
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The afathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,†says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor edefiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has igiven his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted kusury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutesâ€â€
And kept My judgments faithfullyâ€â€
He is just;
He shall surely live!â€Â
Says the Lord God.

18:1–4 The people of Judah had a proverb which blamed their sins on the failure of their ancestors:
“The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.â€Â

God refutes the proverb, stating that individuals are held responsible for their own sins.
He then gives several examples of His principles of judgment:
A man who shuns sin and lives righteously shall surely live.
A righteous man’s wicked son ... shall surely die.
The Jews during the captivity as well as in the Lord Jesus’ time prided themselves on having Abraham as their father (Luke 3:8, John 8:39). God points out that it will do no good to have a righteous father, if their own life is wicked. We also have the tendency to rely on the spirituality of others. But the righteous and holy life of our fathers and godly leaders must become a reality in our own lives.
This section of scripture is really this simple. So can you see how you have taken this out of context to try and prove a theory that is false? My simple explanation. By the way the word ''nephesh'' in this context is the same as in the numbers verse you like so I won't bother to post the definitions again



Here is a commentary I found on crosswalk.com

4. all souls are mineâ€â€Therefore I can deal with all, being My own creation, as I please (Je 18:6). As the Creator of all alike I can have no reason, but the principle of equity, according to men’s works, to make any difference, so as to punish some, and to save others (Ge 18:25). “The soul that sinneth it shall die.†The curse descending from father to son assumes guilt shared in by the son; there is a natural tendency in the child to follow the sin of his father, and so he shares in the father’s punishment: hence the principles of God’s government, involved in Ex 20:5 and Je 15:4, are justified. The sons, therefore (as the Jews here), cannot complain of being unjustly afflicted by God (La 5:7); for they filled up the guilt of their fathers (Mt 23:32, 34–36). The same God who “recompenses the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children,†is immediately after set forth as “giving to every man according to his ways†(Je 32:18, 19) which “visited the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation†(where the explanation is added, “of them that hate me,†that is, the children hating God, as well as their fathers: the former being too likely to follow their parents, sin going down with cumulative force from parent to child), we find (De 24:16), “the fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither the children for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.†The inherited guilt of sin in infants (Ro 5:14) is an awful fact, but one met by the atonement of Christ; but it is of adults that he speaks here. Whatever penalties fall on communities for connection with sins of their fathers, individual adults who repent shall escape (2Ki 23:25, 26). This was no new thing, as some misinterpret the passage here; it had been always God’s principle to punish only the guilty, and not also the innocent, for the sins of their fathers. God does not here change the principle of His administration, but is merely about to manifest it so personally to each that the Jews should no loger throw on God and on their fathers the blame which was their own.
soul that sinneth, it shall dieâ€â€and it alone (Ro 6:23); not also the innocent.

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A., & and Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

 

[mutzrein]

Hi guitar man guibox. Any response to my last post to you? 1st page. Just seeking clarification of what you meant. Thanks

 

[guibox]

Hi guitar man guibox. Any response to my last post to you? 1st page. Just seeking clarification of what you meant. Thanks

:-? I was a little confused by this post because I just didn't remember you addressing something to me. I went back tot he first page and this is the only thing I could find but it wasn't addressed to me and I hadn't even entered the thread yet. Are you sure it wasn't somebody else like Sputnik or Soma-Sight?

Is this what youwere talking about?

I do however believe in a place of eternal torment but not for those who have not received eternal life.

 

[Drew]

CP Its time for the ole KUDEGRA

First Thessalonians 4:13–17 says Christ will bring with him the souls and spirits of those who are now with him in heaven and will reunite their spirits to resurrection bodies.

We shall see if this really is a kudgra.....


What does 1 Thess 4:13-17 actually say? Here is the NASB

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Perhaps you can point out where any kind of statement is made to the effect that there are "souls and spirits in heaven" and then how these spirits are then "united" with resurrection bodies.

And please note that circular reasoning is not allowed. You cannot simply claim this kind of distinction - it needs to be supported by this text.

I suspect that you will argue that the 2nd half of verse 14 supports this assertion. Please be prepared for a counterargument if you adopt such a strategy.

 

[jgredline]

We shall see if this really is a kudgra.....


What does 1 Thess 4:13-17 actually say? Here is the NASB

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Perhaps you can point out where any kind of statement is made to the effect that there are "souls and spirits in heaven" and then how these spirits are then "united" with resurrection bodies.

And please note that circular reasoning is not allowed. You cannot simply claim this kind of distinction - it needs to be supported by this text.

I suspect that you will argue that the 2nd half of verse 14 supports this assertion. Please be prepared for a counterargument if you adopt such a strategy.

Drew
This is toooo easy. I just finished teaching a class on this not to long ago, so the OLE KUDEGRA is in effect here. I wish I could say I will keep it short, but there is simply to much theology here. Sit back, put on your glasses, grab some cookies or chips and enjoy...... Lets start.

Old Testament believers had an imperfect and incomplete knowledge of what happened to a person at the time of death. To them sheol was an all-purpose word used to describe the disembodied state, both of believers and unbelievers.
They believed that everyone would die eventually, that apparently there would be one general resurrection at the end of the world, and then a final judgment. Martha reflected these sketchy views when she said, “I know that he (Lazarus) will rise again in the resurrection at the last day†(John 11:24).
The Lord Jesus brought “life and immortality to light by the gospel†(2 Tim. 1:10). Today we know that the believer departs to be with Christ at the time of death (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21, 23). The unbeliever is said to be in Hades (Luke 16:22, 23). We know that not all believers will die, but that all will be changed (1 Cor. 15:51). We know that there will be more than one resurrection. At the Rapture, only believers will be raised (1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16); the wicked dead will be raised at the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ (Rev. 20:5).

When Paul first went to Thessalonica, he taught the Christians about Christ’s coming to reign and the events that would follow. But in the meantime, problems had arisen regarding those saints who had died. Would their bodies remain in the graves until the last day? Would they be excluded from participation in Christ’s coming and in His glorious kingdom? To answer their questions and to allay their fears, Paul now describes the order of events at the time of Christ’s coming for his people.

The formula, I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, is used to alert readers to an important announcement. Here the announcement concerns those who have fallen asleep, that is, those believers who have died. Sleep is used to describe the bodies of departed Christians, never their spirits or souls. Sleep is an appropriate simile of death, because in death a person seems to be sleeping. Even our word cemetery comes from a Greek word meaning “sleeping place†(koimētērion). And sleep is a familiar simile, because every night we act out this symbol of death, and every morning is like a resurrection.

Drew. are you still with me. I know it's much to digest. Take another sip of milk with those cookies and chips. Lets continue.

The Bible does not teach that the soul sleeps at the time of death. The rich man and Lazarus were both conscious in death (Luke 16:19–31). When the believer dies, he is “present with the Lord†(2 Cor. 5:8). To die is to “be with Christ,†a position which Paul speaks of as “gain†and as being “far better†(Phil. 1:21, 23). This would scarcely be true if the soul were sleeping!

Neither does the Bible teach annihilation. (thought I would sneak this in here, since this is the crux of this conversation)

There is no cessation of being in death. The believer enjoys eternal life (Mark 10:30).
The unbeliever suffers eternal punishment (Mark 9:48; Rev. 14:11).

With regard to those saints who have died, the apostle says that there is no need for hopeless sorrow. He does not rule out sorrow; Jesus wept at the grave of Lazarus, though He knew He would raise him in a few minutes (John 11:35–44).
But he rules out the despairing grief of those who have no hope of heaven, of reunion, of anything but judgment.

The basis of the believer’s hope is the resurrection of Christ. Just as surely as we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so we believe that those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will be raised and will participate in His coming. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive†(1 Cor. 15:22). His resurrection is the pledge and proof of ours.

Notice the expression sleep in Jesus or “those who through Jesus sleep.†Knowing that it is merely the Lover of our souls giving sleep to the bodies of His beloved ones robs death of its terror.
Our positive assurance concerning those who have died in Christ is that God will bring them with Him. This may be understood in two ways:

1. It may mean that at the time of the Rapture, God will raise the bodies of believers and bring them back to heaven with the Lord Jesus.

2. Or it may mean that when Christ comes back to the earth to reign, God will bring back with Christ those who have died in faith. In other words, the apostle is saying, “Don’t worry that those who have died will miss out in the glory of the coming kingdom. God will bring them back with Jesus when the latter returns in power and great glory.†(This is the generally preferred meaning by most theologians and the one I agree with..)

But how can this be? Their bodies are now lying in the grave. How can they come back with Jesus? The answer is given in verses 15–17. Before Christ comes to set up His kingdom, He will return to take His own people home to be with Him in heaven. Then at a later date, He will come back with them.

How did Paul know this? His answer is, this we say to you by the word of the Lord. He received this as a direct revelation from the Lord. We are not told how he received itâ€â€whether by a vision, by an audible voice, or by the inward impression of the Holy Spirit. But it is definitely a truth unknown to men up to that time.

Then he goes on to explain that when Christ returns, the living saints will not have any precedence or advantage over sleeping saints.
In this verse Paul speaks of himself as one who would be alive at Christ’s coming (see also 1 Cor. 15:51, 52). However, in 2 Corinthians 4:14 and 5:1, he speaks of the possibility of his being among those who will be raised. The obvious conclusion is that we should look for the Lord to come at any moment, yet realize that we may be called to reach heaven by way of death.

The exact order of events at Christ’s coming for His saints is now given. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven. He will not send an angel, but will come Himself!
It will be with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. Several explanations have been offered as to the significance of these commanding sounds, but frankly it is almost impossible to speak with finality about them:
1. Some theologians feel that the shout is the voice of the Lord Jesus Himself which raises the dead (John 5:25; 11:43, 44) and changes the living. Others, like Hogg and Vine, say that the shout is the archangel’s voice.

2. The voice of Michael, the archangel, is commonly understood as an assembling command for the OT saints, since he is so closely associated with Israel (Dan. 12:1; Jude 9; Rev. 12:4–7). Others think its purpose is to revive Israel nationally. And still others suggest the voice of an archangel summons the angels as a military escort to accompany the Lord and His saints through enemy territory back to heav en (cf. Luke 16:22).

3. The trumpet of God is the some as the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, which has to do with the resurrection of believers at the time of the Rapture. It calls the saints to eternal blessing. It is not to be confused with the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15–18, which signals the final outpouring of judgment on the world during the Tribulation. The last trumpet here is the last for the church. The seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last for the unbelieving world (though it is never specifically called the “last trumpetâ€Â).

Drew. Are you still with me? This is cool stuff ha. I have been in a deep study of Revelation and Daniel for the past 6 weeks and its really helping me with this commentary. Lets continue.

The bodies of the dead in Christ will rise first. Whether this includes the OT saints is debatable. Those who think it does point out that the archangel’s voice is heard at this time, and that he is closely linked with the destinies of Israel (Dan. 12:1). Those who think that the OT saints will not be raised at the Rapture remind us that the phrase in Christ (the dead in Christ) is never applied to believers who lived before the Church Age; these believers will probably be raised at the end of the Tribulation (Dan. 12:2). In any case it is clear that this is definitely not a general resurrection. Not all the dead are raised at this time, but only the dead in Christ.

Then the living shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. The word Rapture, which we use to describe this first phase of the Lord’s return, is derived from the verb used here in the Latin Bible meaning caught up. A “rapture†is a snatching away or a catching up. It is used of Philip in Acts 8:39, of Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4, and of the male Child in Revelation 12:5.

The air is Satan’s sphere (Eph. 2:2), so this is a triumphal gathering in open defiance of the devil right in his own stronghold.
Think of all that is included in these verses! The earth and the sea yielding up the dust of all the dead in Christ. Then the transforming miracle by which this dust is formed into glorified bodies, free forever from sickness, pain, and death. Then the space-flight to heaven. And all of this taking place in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:52).

Men of the world have difficulty believing the account of the creation of man in Genesis 1 and 2. If they have difficulty with creation, what will they do with the Raptureâ€â€when God will recreate millions of people from the dust that has been buried, scattered, strewn, or swept up on the beaches of the world?
Men of the world are enthusiastic about space travel. But can their greatest exploits compare with the wonder of traveling to heaven in a split second without taking our own atmosphere with us, as the space men have to do when they go on short hops to outer space?
In connection with Christ’s coming there is a sound to hear, a sight to see, a miracle to feel, a meeting to enjoy, and a comfort to experience.
It is also good to notice the recurrence of the word Lord in these verses: the word of the Lord (v. 15), the coming of the Lord (v. 15), the Lord Himself (v. 16), to meet the Lord (v. 17), to always be with the Lord (v. 17).
Forever with the Lord! Who can tell all the joy and blessedness that is included in these words?

Well Drew. What say you. These are my notes that I ammended some from when I taught a Class on 1 and 2 thess last year.

 

[mutzrein]

Sorry Guibox. My error. My apologies. Yes I realise now it was Soma sight. :

Thanks for your response tho and pointing out my error.

 

[jgredline]

Drew
By the way, When I was learning Greek, one of the words we studied was sleep and what it means in the context of pauls writings and in particular 1 thess 4

One of the exercises was writing and defining the entire chapter in Greek. With out the understanding of the Greek word for sleep one would have a very tough time learning what this chapter means. If you would like I can dig out my notes and study guide and post them for you to look at or study. Let me know.

Just to give you an idea Here are three words in greek for our single word sleep . Depending on what context it is used in will determin what word is used.


1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (κοιμάω)in Jesus will God bring with him.


Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep (ὕπνος): for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.


Acts 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep (ἔξυπνος), and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

Any way, as you can see in the above examples of the word sleep is used in three differant ways in the Greek, but in english, we only have the one word.

Jesus also Used a differant word for sleep as did Luke and others. . Anyway let me know if you would like my notes and study guides. I can post them or e mail them.
Blessings, Javier

 

[guibox]

I have to say that I am enjoying the spirit and civility of these conversations much better lately. I hope and pray that oscar will continue to do so as he did on the other thread so I don't have to go on a vendetta to oust him. :wink:

I don't understand why we can't continue to dialogue normally and even agree to disagree provided that it is based on solid biblical argument as I have been seeing as of late from jg.

Please keep it up gentlemen. I'm actually starting to like you instead of dreading reading your awful replies I have seen before. 8-)

jg, I will look in my concordance on the words 'slee'. However, I believe that the term used in 1 Thesslonians 4 is meant to mean the same as it is used throughout the OT in describing the dead. I also believe that the traditionalist does not see the ramifications on WHY the Hebrews and NT Christians used the term they did.

Even though it may not be a literal sleep as we see on this earth, it's metaphorical usage and close proximity to what we physically experience cannot and should not be disregarded so easily to make it mean 'my soul is alive in heaven'.

To me this is a contradiction of the whole context of the term