The Wages of Sin is ..... Eternal Life in Hell!

[SputnikBoy]

********
Please! The internet is also big and if one really tried they too could find a site that would fit what they believe.

Well, what is next?? Are you and Solo telling 'us' who are not of your 'fold' to take a hike?? And the owner of the site seems to have trusted you with the keys of the forums kingdom here, if it has now finally become a non freedom loving church?? And Even on the 'General Talk' thread ??

Whoo boy ...I'm glad you said that and not me. :D

I SO MUCH agree with you, John, and you said it very well indeed.

Whatever? Awaiting your required packing orders.

Let us hope that it doesn't result in anything so severe.

Remember forum, in Revelation 13:15 we see a Christless church needing FORCE! Something similar to 'Trademarked' Seventh-day Adventism!

:o Not so sure I like that . . .

PS: If any know of a forum that still believes & practices freedom of religion & freedom of speech with only legal USA 'censorship', let me know, OK?

John, John ...cool it, buddy . . .!

As I said, I DO agree with you, however.

 

[Judy]

SputnikBoy, you might want to read my response on the previous page.

Please stay on topic.... I am aware that in our rules this topic is off limits. However since it has been allowed for 9 pages now. How you behave while debating this topic will determine weather it will be allow to stay.

By the way if you disagree with what a mod or admin says please send them a PM. Do not state it in the public forum.

 

[CP_Mike]

1 Cor 15:53
All men's bodies will become immortal at the resurrection

Now this is a powerful argument against annihilation. If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!

How can the wicked suffer the second death if they are immortal and then suffer the second death? If the wicked die again, then how can:

"come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory?" 1 Cor 15:55".

Simple, mortal refers to the body part not the soul. when man dies he survives death consciously. After resurrection, his immortal spiritual body is given to him and he will never again be apart from his body. IMMORTAL. But the second death is not the separation of the body and soul, but the separation of man from God for eternity in hell!

Remember, the saying, "Death is swallowed up in victory" will come about at the final resurrection. If the wicked die PHYSICALLY again, then God was wrong when he said: "when this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."" Obviously this was not true, for the wicked are swallowed up in physical death and death keeps its victory forever!

Hi JG,
What is your definition of soul?

 

[Solo]

The three main doctrines that immediately differed from mainstream Christian teaching were 1. the keeping of the 7th-day Sabbath. 2. that the dead 'sleep' in their graves until the resurrection, and 3. that the 'lost' are not in eternal torment.

Sput ole boy,
You are the ranter; I teach the truth. You are not forced to believe the truth; you will be judged by what you believe. As far as the three points that you allude to:

1. The keeping of the seventh day Sabbath holy to the Lord was increased to resting from your works one day of the week to seven days a week. You are to keep all days holy to the Lord, not just one day.
   [/*:m:82dde]
2. The dead physical bodies "sleep" in the grave until the resurrection of the dead, while the souls go to the spiritual place of heaven or hell. After the resurrection of the dead bodies that "sleep" in the earth, they will be rejoined with their soul for eternity in heaven or the lake of fire.
   [/*:m:82dde]
3. The eternal punishment that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 25 is very plain. You do not have to believe the words of Jesus if you so choose. Twisting the word of God will not help your cause one iota.[/*:m:82dde]

You know, Solo, I belong to a church that, some time ago, took the position that any doctrines, while presently considered to be sound, could be amended at a later date if new light deemed that to be necessary.

That is exactly what will occur when sound doctrine is excused and replaced by the doctrines that will itch the ears of those who refuse sound doctrine. The apostacy is upon us and the son of perdition is soon to be revealed. That is good news for Jesus is close to being upon us.

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:1-4
.

 

[guibox]

jg, jg, jg...

I expected better hermenutics from you than what I have just read below. You have two glaring errors that defy biblical reasoning and clear progressive logic in relation to the resurrection.

1) That the wicked are being spoken of here and that they too are immortal
2) That the texts talk merely about the body and not the soul

1)

1 Cor 15:53
All men's bodies will become immortal at the resurrection

Now this is a powerful argument against annihilation. If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!!

The bible speaks of two resurrections, not one for all mankind. Why, just in this chapter alone it tells you which one this is speaking about:

"But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward, THEY THAT ARE HIS at His coming"

Also look at John 5:28,29 "Marvel not at this that the hour is coming in the which that all who are in their graves shall come forth: some to everlasting life, some to everlasting damnation"

Couple that with Revelation 20

"Blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection as is the second death has no power over him"

"And the rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years"

"And death and the grave gave up the dead who are in it and they were cast into the lake of fire"

Couple this with Drew's comments and need I go on about this matter?

2)

Simple, mortal refers to the body part not the soul. when man dies he survives death consciously. After resurrection, his immortal spiritual body is given to him and he will never again be apart from his body. IMMORTAL. But the second death is not the separation of the body and soul, but the separation of man from God for eternity in hell!!

Despite the fact that you are basing this on your false belief that the wicked are immortal, this view is prevalent thinking (that the resurrection is for the body and not the whole man) and needs commenting.

Before one gets into the biblical thinking, logic must speak to them.

Paul reiterates over and over here and in 1 Thessalonians 4 that the resurrection is a 'hope', a 'victory' a 'conquering of death' where 'death is swallowed up'. He continually places emphasis in the importance of the resurrection.

Why?

Because without the resurrection, there is no hope for eternal life.

Such emphasis is needless if there is 'hope', 'victory', 'conquering of death' and it is 'swallowed up' at my physical death when my 'soul' is separated from my body

Such emphasis is also redundant if it merely speaks of my body. For that matter, a resurrection is useless to begin with if the wicked are already experiencing hell and the righteous, heaven.

When we rob the resurrection of its power by making these verses apply ONLY to the body, we are completely missing the importance of Christ's DEATH and RESURRECTION, what it accomplished and what it signifies for eternal life. 1 Cor 15 brings this out quite clearly in verses 13-23. The two are wrapped up together. You can't have one without the other and neither one alone bring LIFE. They must work together.

Life...PERIOD, is only made possible through resurrection. That is the message of 1 Corinthians 15. Even a blind man could see that.

Not only does scripture not support one iota of a 'body/soul' reunification at the resurrection, but it is clearly contradicted by 1 Corinthians 15 itself.

I am going to open another thread to discuss this chapter exegetically...stay tuned.

 

[Solo]

Seventh Day Adventist bologna, nothing more, nothing less. Hail Ellen, Hail Ellen, Hail Ellen. 8-)

 

[CP_Mike]

Solo, JG,
Do you guys believe in the resurrection or do you believe you will be disembodied souls in heaven?

 

[Solo]

Solo, JG,
Do you guys believe in the resurrection or do you believe you will be disembodied souls in heaven?

The dead body is resurrected to join with the disembodied soul.

 

[jgredline]

The dead body is resurrected to join with the disembodied soul.

Same here. This is what the bible teaches as has already been explained many times to you. If you don't get it, I can't help you. Pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth to you.

 

[John the Baptist]

Gen. 3:3-4 (in part) "God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch of it, least ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die."

Interesting? Some still believe that satan told a truth here, and that the Godhead outright lied?? But that is only one of the devils false doctrines, huh! For Christ say's it clearly.. "[IF] YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
But we will soon see, huh? Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20, Matthew 10:28 & Obadiah 1:16.

---John

 

[jgredline]

John
With all due respect, I really don't understand you 80% of the time. Is this post directed at me or someone else?

I am also still waiting for the book, chapter and verse where you said Jesus said Luke 16 IS A parable. If this was a misteke on your part, cool. No problem. Lets move on.

 

[CP_Mike]

The dead body is resurrected to join with the disembodied soul.

Can you show me one scripture to support that claim? I do not see 'Nephesh' nor 'psuche' once anywhere that even mentions that.

So please tell me, what do you think a soul is?

 

[CP_Mike]

Same here. This is what the bible teaches as has already been explained many times to you. If you don't get it, I can't help you. Pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth to you.

Hi JG,
Same question to you, I can't find it in any bible that a disembodied soul finds its way back to its body.

What do you think a soul is?

(I think I asked you before, but I am still waiting for the answer!)

 

[jgredline]

Hi JG,
Same question to you, I can't find it in any bible that a disembodied soul finds its way back to its body.

What do you think a soul is?

(I think I asked you before, but I am still waiting for the answer!)

Like I said earlier
This is what the bible teaches as has already been explained many times to you. If you don't get it, I can't help you. Pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth to you.
If you really want to know the truth, You can go back and look at the 100 or so post I have posted on this topic.
For now I am done discussing this as I have no more to say regarding this.

 

[CP_Mike]

Like I said earlier
This is what the bible teaches as has already been explained many times to you. If you don't get it, I can't help you. Pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth to you.
If you really want to know the truth, You can go back and look at the 100 or so post I have posted on this topic.
For now I am done discussing this as I have no more to say regarding this.

Sorry JG, I have trawled through all your posts and I cannot find one definition from you.

Please answer or if I have missed it; please show me the post where you have defined it?

What is your definition of 'soul'?

Thanks!

 

[John the Baptist]

John
With all due respect, I really don't understand you 80% of the time. Is this post directed at me or someone else?

I am also still waiting for the book, chapter and verse where you said Jesus said Luke 16 IS A parable. If this was a misteke on your part, cool. No problem. Lets move on.

*****
No offense young'in, I realize that one needs to crawl before they can walk. I can barely remember when that applied to me, :wink: but I know that it did. And I also know that I really loved my new Master as well as you seem to! My first Bible was worn out years ago.. and it looked like a lighted Christmas tree. (but that is another subject) But if you go back a few post's you will see that another answered your question to me, for me. And the answer was the direct Word's out of the Inspired Word's of Christ.

But, I think that the biggest problem is that we just do not do as the Godhead requires in our study. That is why we grow so slowly. Surely you too, can get something out of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Matthew 4:4 without needing other's work??? (of Jeremiah 17:5)

You can see that I BELIEVE that the Godheads Word's are [Their Own hermeneutics.] Even check out the K.J. of Isaiah 28:9-10 for how one progresses from milk to meat! (crawling to walking)

But please be advised, I am never wanting for you to think that I am attempting to read ones heart or motive for service. Although, fear of an eternally burning hell just does not fit my thinking of an HONEST Loving Godhead. I say that because of these ones need to be let out of hell ever so often to eat of the tree of life.

---John

PS: I was just looking over the thread poll & your remark came into my mind :wink: (about not understanding me %80 of the time?) Well, here is the poll results! Do you think that the Word of God has my troubles??
See 2 Peter 3:16-17


How accurate is this statement in a Biblical sense?
1. Accurate - Sinners receive eternal life in hell to be tortured forever and ever.....
28% [ 4 ]
2. Inaccurate - The Bible does not support this view - the wages of sin is DEATH (give reasoning beyond this if you want....)
42% [ 6 ]
3. Other
28% [ 4 ]

Total Votes : 14

 

[CP_Mike]

Like I said earlier
This is what the bible teaches as has already been explained many times to you. If you don't get it, I can't help you. Pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth to you.
If you really want to know the truth, You can go back and look at the 100 or so post I have posted on this topic.
For now I am done discussing this as I have no more to say regarding this.

Hi JG,
I looked at all the posts again. No definition from you.

Please, could you let me have your definition of what a soul is (with biblical references if you can) or is it that can't or you realise that you answer may contradict scripture?

I think that last statement you made is that its getting a little hot for you and you choose to cop out?

 

[Solo]

Can you show me one scripture to support that claim? I do not see 'Nephesh' nor 'psuche' once anywhere that even mentions that.

So please tell me, what do you think a soul is?

Luke 16 explains the soul of individuals in hell and in heaven after the body died and was buried.

Also Revelation 6:9-11 speaks of the souls of those who have been killed. This period of time is before the first resurrection, and the souls of those under the altar are crying out to God.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Your bias is blinding you from perceiving the truth. Perhaps your position in Christ Jesus is something that you should examine fully to insure that you have truly been born again.

 

[CP_Mike]

Luke 16 explains the soul of individuals in hell and in heaven after the body died and was buried.

Also Revelation 6:9-11 speaks of the souls of those who have been killed. This period of time is before the first resurrection, and the souls of those under the altar are crying out to God.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Your bias is blinding you from perceiving the truth. Perhaps your position in Christ Jesus is something that you should examine fully to insure that you have truly been born again.

I will ignore that last remark.

So lets look at Luke 16:

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "


Rev 6:9

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.


How can the Rich man in Hell have a tongue if he is a disembodied soul? The passage does not actually mention soul at all!

How can the the souls of those under the altar wear white robes if they are also disembodied souls? Interesting to note "avenge our blood" is a reference to Genesis 4:10 and Leviticus 17:11 which links blood in all three verses.


So to you, Solo, what is the definition of 'soul' in the bible?

 

[John the Baptist]

:wink: Not just Solo, huh? Ezekiel 18:4 & Ezekiel 18:20 & again Matthew 10:28. Compare this 'documentation' of the Word of God with the devil's Genesis 3:4 first lie. Or was it God that is again being questioned? And the Born Again remark? Who that 'was ever' Born Again would call the Godhead liar's?? Unless the verse of Hebrews 6:6 has once again, come to the surface??
---John