The war of Armageddon - spiritual or physical

[adam332]

Why is there need for a physical battle when this verse below shows the most effective means?

2 Peter 3:10-12 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[a] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?


Does God wage physical battle on his enemies only to then resurrect them for judgment?

As to your first question, doesn't the verse you quoted sound physical? I think the wicked will find that fire pretty physical. I think when Christ comes the same fire that burn up the wicked... shall cleanse, purify, refine, etc.. the righteous.

Many passages portray the event in many ways. The battle symbolism is just one. In other place it uses farming, symbolism. In another places we are goats/sheep. In other places a rod of iron smash the wicked to pieces. Also the sword of His mouth, will smite them. Or it will be the winepress of His wrath.

All of them are physical, all of them result in the same thing. But the most repetitive example is fire. I think it was literal water in the days of Noah, and I believe it will be literal fire at the day of the Lord.

I believe in all the descriptions, but I think destruction by fire to be the only one that is literal.

As to the last question.

I think he destroys the wicked before the millennium.
Then we sit in judgment for a thousand years.
After the thousand years the wicked dead that are "in the earth", shall be raised with those who are "in the sea".
Since the 1000yrs of judgment are over, they are judged out of the books.
Fire comes down from God out of heaven and destroys them in the "second death".
God makes the heavens and earth new.
We inherit the earth.
The end.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

As to the question about God destroying the wicked by His wrath and then resurrecting them for judgement yes that is what happens.- The word says it is appointed once for man to die then comes the judgement.

God will sent wrath on the wicked who are alive in the flesh and cause them to die. Then time comes for them to be raised to judgement- for them unto condemnation.

Wrath is for the flesh of the wicked- but judgement that comes after resurrection is eternal and upon the soul.

 

[archangel_300]

Many passages portray the event in many ways. The battle symbolism is just one. In other place it uses farming, symbolism. In another places we are goats/sheep. In other places a rod of iron smash the wicked to pieces. Also the sword of His mouth, will smite them. Or it will be the winepress of His wrath.

All of them are physical, all of them result in the same thing. But the most repetitive example is fire. I think it was literal water in the days of Noah, and I believe it will be literal fire at the day of the Lord.

I believe in all the descriptions, but I think destruction by fire to be the only one that is literal.

I agree that there are different symbols portraying the final judgment of God. All the ones you mentioned are correct and the battle symbolism is no different. It's all referring to the time when Christ returns to judge mankind for their sins and does away with sin and evil once and for all. I guess I'm not completely convinced there will be a literal physical battle.

 

[veteran]

See Zechariah 14:14, and note the timeline of that chapter.

 

[adam332]

See Zechariah 14:14, and note the timeline of that chapter.

Not that I'm an expert on Zec. by any means. There is still tons of scripture I wish to sudy more thoroughly. But I have read it several times in the past and have some general thoughts.

I use OT and NT for endtime prophecy, parable, shadows, types, etc... But with the OT I'm a little wary on relying on details. I try to use the general image from OT examples. One of the reasons is there has been a change in covenant and other things.

The 490 yr probation of Israel failed. Christ had to go with plan "B". We will fulfill to prophecy of Israel through Christ.

I think the OT prophecies may now have the details compromised. Maybe even a replacement from literal/physical fulfillment to spiritual/symbolic. I sure believe that a spiritual Israel has now replaced a literal/physical one. So why not other details?

My point is; it will all be fulfilled as promised, but the question is how?

The imagery in Zec. 14 shows a time of war in the Holy land. That's happening now.

The wealthy heathen in v. 14 could be referring to rich oil powers in the middle east. In the last 60 yrs or so that area of the world has gone from living in tents and riding camels... to penthouse suites, private jets, riding in limos, etc...

The mention of plagues hints at Rev. plagues and there timing. It also mentions the feast of tabernacles meaning "God with us". During the plagues of Egypt, God protected his people from said plagues. "Sealed them" so to speak. Matter of fact v18 and 19 use Egypt as an example of those who the plague and punishment fall upon.

That about all I got without further specificity.

 

[veteran]

See Zechariah 14:14, and note the timeline of that chapter.

Not that I'm an expert on Zec. by any means. There is still tons of scripture I wish to sudy more thoroughly. But I have read it several times in the past and have some general thoughts.

I use OT and NT for endtime prophecy, parable, shadows, types, etc... But with the OT I'm a little wary on relying on details. I try to use the general image from OT examples. One of the reasons is there has been a change in covenant and other things.

The 490 yr probation of Israel failed. Christ had to go with plan "B". We will fulfill to prophecy of Israel through Christ.

I think the OT prophecies may now have the details compromised. Maybe even a replacement from literal/physical fulfillment to spiritual/symbolic. I sure believe that a spiritual Israel has now replaced a literal/physical one. So why not other details?

My point is; it will all be fulfilled as promised, but the question is how?

The imagery in Zec. 14 shows a time of war in the Holy land. That's happening now.

The wealthy heathen in v. 14 could be referring to rich oil powers in the middle east. In the last 60 yrs or so that area of the world has gone from living in tents and riding camels... to penthouse suites, private jets, riding in limos, etc...

The mention of plagues hints at Rev. plagues and there timing. It also mentions the feast of tabernacles meaning "God with us". During the plagues of Egypt, God protected his people from said plagues. "Sealed them" so to speak. Matter of fact v18 and 19 use Egypt as an example of those who the plague and punishment fall upon.

That about all I got without further specificity.

Though God's Word has many metaphors, symbols, and figures of speech, often pointing to a spiritual side of things, still It is not a Book involving mysticism. We can rely on those metaphors and symbols to represent literal Truths. The Books of the OT prophets cover many details about our times, and even way future. For example, we can depend on literal meanings like with God declaring through Isaiah about a future time of a new heavens and a new earth. I realize discerning what was history and what has yet to be fulfilled in the prophets is difficult for many, and some simply give up and assume it's all past history, which to me seems mostly an excuse not to have to take the time to figure it out.

When we can find nine whole chapters in Ezekiel 40 through 48 that give minute detail of God's future House at Jerusalem in the time of the River of the waters of life and the many trees bearing fruits of Rev.22, then that's a major Lesson our Lord is showing even us in the last days of how important the Books of the OT prophets are. This is why Peter admonished those in Christ to also be mindful of the words written by the holy prophets (2 Pet.3:2).

Zechariah 14 is no different in importance about the end times, because it's about the time of Christ's second coming on the "day of The LORD", and it flows into His Milennium reign on earth.

 

[adam332]

Though God's Word has many metaphors, symbols, and figures of speech, often pointing to a spiritual side of things, still It is not a Book involving mysticism. We can rely on those metaphors and symbols to represent literal Truths. The Books of the OT prophets cover many details about our times, and even way future. For example, we can depend on literal meanings like with God declaring through Isaiah about a future time of a new heavens and a new earth. I realize discerning what was history and what has yet to be fulfilled in the prophets is difficult for many, and some simply give up and assume it's all past history, which to me seems mostly an excuse not to have to take the time to figure it out.

When we can find nine whole chapters in Ezekiel 40 through 48 that give minute detail of God's future House at Jerusalem in the time of the River of the waters of life and the many trees bearing fruits of Rev.22, then that's a major Lesson our Lord is showing even us in the last days of how important the Books of the OT prophets are. This is why Peter admonished those in Christ to also be mindful of the words written by the holy prophets (2 Pet.3:2).

Zechariah 14 is no different in importance about the end times, because it's about the time of Christ's second coming on the "day of The LORD", and it flows into His Milennium reign on earth.

I agree completely, and even if we get it wrong and interpret something that has actually happened, as a prophecy.... or vice versa, it doesn't really matter to me. All prophecies, parables, literal/historical accounts, etc... hold images and examples that tell us something about endtimes.

The plagues upon Egypt, set as an example, yet aren't an exact snapshot of the endtimes. This could be said of Sodom. This could be said the battle of Gideon. This could be said of the flood.

This could be said of even NT prophecy and parable. Are the details of battles, vials, and reaping, the winepress, goats, great gulfs, and shut doors, and outer darkness, and thrust out of the kingdom, husband and bride, etc.... all literal details. No. They give us a general picture over and over.

If the NT details cannot all be literal, how much harder to discern literal details from OT prophecy?

And what if the change of covenant and failure of the Messiah's people to accept Him, resulted in spiritual or symbolic fulfillment? There are passages in the old and new testament where God clearly tells them His part of the bargain is off.... if Israel fails it's end of the covenant.

Jer. 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Based on that concept alone the OT prophetic details are no guarantee at all.

Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

New nation, new covenant, new details.

...it flows into His Milennium reign on earth.

There are seven verses in the whole Bible that we can all agree on occurs during then millennium, Rev. 20:1-7. Everything else is speculation and may only be considered having a potential connection if it's imagery lined up with this passage.

So show me where are those images found in those 7 verses of Rev. that are confirmed in Zec 14?

 

[veteran]

I agree completely, and even if we get it wrong and interpret something that has actually happened, as a prophecy.... or vice versa, it doesn't really matter to me. All prophecies, parables, literal/historical accounts, etc... hold images and examples that tell us something about endtimes.

The plagues upon Egypt, set as an example, yet aren't an exact snapshot of the endtimes. This could be said of Sodom. This could be said the battle of Gideon. This could be said of the flood.

This could be said of even NT prophecy and parable. Are the details of battles, vials, and reaping, the winepress, goats, great gulfs, and shut doors, and outer darkness, and thrust out of the kingdom, husband and bride, etc.... all literal details. No. They give us a general picture over and over.

If the NT details cannot all be literal, how much harder to discern literal details from OT prophecy?

Mystics hate the details. GOD's WORD is all about the details. When God says something will come to pass, we can count on it coming to pass, as written. If He uses a figure of speech to DRAW a bigger picture in our minds, that has nothing to do with spiritual philosophizing. HIs Word is about actions that will come to pass.

In one passage in the Book of Isaiah, in the Hebrew, God uses an idea of the sound a bottle makes when turned upside down with its contents poured out all of a sudden. He uses that idea to show how He's going to end this world someday. Does that mean the earth is a literal bottle? NO. He simply uses that as an expression to get His point across. It does not change the fact that He said He's going to end this world.

The field of Biblical archaeology is constantly discovering buried artifacts that support details of history given in the Old Testament Books. The details in The Bible are very accurate, once understood. Just because some have a problem with understanding The Bible doesn't give them the right to try and change It's history, nor It's prophecies as written.

Those who are able to teach God's Word to where It comes alive, and is easier to understand, that shows a calling from God. But those who constantly apply spiritual meanings upon spiritual meaning going in circles and never coming to the message's truth, that shows just the opposite of that calling. God told His prophets (Isaiah I think), to go tell the people what He said, and to speak plainly in easy to understand speech. That's the calling. Speaking in spiritual circles is not.

And what if the change of covenant and failure of the Messiah's people to accept Him, resulted in spiritual or symbolic fulfillment? There are passages in the old and new testament where God clearly tells them His part of the bargain is off.... if Israel fails it's end of the covenant.

Jer. 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Based on that concept alone the OT prophetic details are no guarantee at all.

Thankfully, God through His prophets gave many more prophecies to show He would bring a New Covenant to house of Judah and house of Israel, showing that His Promises are guaranteed for those who stay in Him through His Son Jesus Christ. It's those many other Scriptures God gave through His OT prophets that Christ's Apostles, especially Paul, preached The Gospel from, showing that His Promise has always been true for those who believe.

...it flows into His Milennium reign on earth.

There are seven verses in the whole Bible that we can all agree on occurs during then millennium, Rev. 20:1-7. Everything else is speculation and may only be considered having a potential connection if it's imagery lined up with this passage.

So show me where are those images found in those 7 verses of Rev. that are confirmed in Zec 14?[/quote]

Well brother, your first statement is loaded. Because not everyone will even agree that the Rev.20:1-7 verses are about a Milennium. I've seen some move that to past history, or to today, now. I understand the principle you propose in comparing Scripture events with Scripture events. I think it's a good practice, essential even. So why aren't you willing to do that with the Zechariah 14 Scripture, or other OT Scriptures of the prophets like Ezekiel 40 through 48? Why do you seem to be skirting their event content in comparison with the Rev.20:1-7 example?

There are many, many more Scriptures about Christ's Milennium reign scattered throughout The Bible, in both OT and NT. 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 is one of them. Some is covered in Romans 8 too. Here's one I'm sure only some will recognize...


A. Day of The LORD timing...

Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

B. Milennium Timing...

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

C. Millennium and New Heavens and New Earth timing...

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
(KJV)