The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[farouk]

Chapter and verse, please. I believe Scripture when it says "baptism, which now SAVES YOU".

First Peter 3, 21. To be obedient to God in fulfilling the symbol is 'the answer of a good conscience before God', if you look at the context of the verse.

It doesn't mean that the precious blood of Christ which Peter also speaks of in his First Epistle, is supposedly somehow inoperative unless a rite is performed.

 

[dadof10]

First Peter 3, 21. To be obedient to God in fulfilling the symbol is 'the answer of a good conscience before God', if you look at the context of the verse.

Huh? You're going to have to explain what you mean by this. Peter doesn't mention a "symbol" anywhere in reference to water baptism. The symbol is the flood, not the baptism. The baptism is the reality.

It doesn't mean that the precious blood of Christ which Peter also speaks of in his First Epistle, is supposedly somehow inoperative unless a rite is performed.

I never said that. Baptism is the normative means of salvation. That doesn't mean that we put God in a box. It's the "faith alone" crowd that does that, along with making salvation legalistic. No faith, no salvation. We believe that We CAN be justified by a deathbed confession (faith alone), but the NORMATIVE means of salvation is infant baptism, sacraments, constant prayer, keeping the commandments and refraining from sin throughout our lives, and final repentance. The "precious Blood of Christ" is APPLIED at baptism and at other times through other means throughout our lives. This is because we sin and fall from Grace and lose our initial salvation (baptism).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are still skirting the question. It's a simple yes-or-no question.

You said: "That cooperation is your ongoing faith. That is what saves you, not the merit of the work that faith accomplishes."

I asked: "So we MUST cooperate with God's Grace, using our will, to be saved?" Yes or no?



Wrong. Paul contrasts faith with ONLY "works of the law" and the Jewish attitude of obligation inherent in it. Again you are begging the question. This is what we are discussing, what Paul means by "works". You think he means EVERY BEHAVIOR (except "trusting"), I think he means ONLY "works of the law". I have NEVER accepted your claim that baptism or charity are parts of "the law". There has to be proof, or at least a parallel drawn, between Paul's use of the word "works" and baptism, charity, keeping the commandments, etc., otherwise I will continue to believe these things are salvific because Scripture says so.

I can't fathom how someone can not see the obvious difference between being saved because they believed God that he would forgive their sins, vs. being saved on the condition of the performance of duties and behaviors. I'm not wasting anymore time here. Any lurker here who could benefit from what I and others have said here would have done so by now.

 

[rrowell]

I can't fathom how someone can not see the obvious difference between being saved because they believed God that he would forgive their sins, vs. being saved on the condition of the performance of duties and behaviors. I'm not wasting anymore time here. Any lurker here who could benefit from what I and others have said here would have done so by now.

I can't fathom how someone can think God would save anybody by belief alone...

You Cannot get around "works" to "justify" your "faith":

John 6:27 (KJV)
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

"Labour" means work, we have to work for the meat which "endureth unto everlasting life".


Acts 10:34-35 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


"worketh righteousness" means we have to "get" and "maintain" "righteousness"


1 John 2:4 (KJV)
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


you have to do something here, "keepeth" "his commandments" sounds like "work" and if you don't "do it" you do not "know him".


1 John 5:3 (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


we see here the only way to love God is to "keep his commandments" look like we have to "work" at it...


because it can't be possible to "keep his commandments" without working at it:


1 John 1:10 (KJV)
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can't fathom how someone can think God would save anybody by belief alone...

You Cannot get around "works" to "justify" your "faith":

John 6:27 (KJV)
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

"Labour" means work, we have to work for the meat which "endureth unto everlasting life".


Acts 10:34-35 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


"worketh righteousness" means we have to "get" and "maintain" "righteousness"


1 John 2:4 (KJV)
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


you have to do something here, "keepeth" "his commandments" sounds like "work" and if you don't "do it" you do not "know him".


1 John 5:3 (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


we see here the only way to love God is to "keep his commandments" look like we have to "work" at it...


because it can't be possible to "keep his commandments" without working at it:


1 John 1:10 (KJV)
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Just so we're clear, you're plainly saying that a person makes themselves righteous and qualified for salvation by what they do, right?

Is that what you are insisting on?

 

[dadof10]

I can't fathom how someone can not see the obvious difference between being saved because they believed God that he would forgive their sins, vs. being saved on the condition of the performance of duties and behaviors.

Neither can I, but AGAIN, that's not what I have EVER claimed.

I'm not wasting anymore time here.

You would probably not look at this as a waste of time if you didn't spend so much time engaging in straw-man argumentation, begging the question and skirting simple yes-or-no questions. This seems like a waste of time to you because you won't move forward by answering my contentions instead of repeating your position over and over while attacking the straw-man.

Any lurker here who could benefit from what I and others have said here would have done so by now.

If there are any "lurkers" here, I doubt it. They won't benefit from your posts here, unless they are looking for examples of logical fallacies and distraction.

 

[WIP]

Let's not make this personal. Please stick to the topic.

 

[rrowell]

Just so we're clear, you're plainly saying that a person makes themselves righteous and qualified for salvation by what they do, right?

Is that what you are insisting on?

The long answer, Unless we do as he commands (do something or it would not require it to be a command) we are NOT righteous... if we do as he commands (did something) we are righteous... if we are righteous and fail to continue doing what he commands, we are not righteous anymore, if we have once done as he commands, then slipped, then repent we are in alignment once again and once again righteous... (notice all that doing stuff?)

Short answer yes, but it is not what I am saying it is what the Bible is saying...

 

[BobE]

I think my favourite Bible verses that address this issue are here:

Romans 4:1-3 NIV
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.â€[a]

and

Romans 7:4-6 NIV
"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

In Christ, we're free from the law. In fact, we're dead to it. This is good news because the law doesn't actually save us. Quite the opposite, we're told that it "arouses sinful passions." Now that we're free from the law, we can live by the Spirit.

Salvation comes to us through faith, but that's not all. We also receive the Holy Spirit by faith, and it is the Spirit of God at work within us that produces righteousness that is pleasing to God.

All this talk of righteous deeds being required to earn or maintain one's salvation seems to be missing a very important point. Salvation and righteousness are both gifts, received by faith:

Romans 8:1-4 NIV
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

and

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love...

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.â€[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:4-6, 14&16 NIV

 

[dadof10]

I think my favourite Bible verses that address this issue are here:

Romans 4:1-3 NIV
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.â€[a]

and

Romans 7:4-6 NIV
"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

In Christ, we're free from the law. In fact, we're dead to it. This is good news because the law doesn't actually save us. Quite the opposite, we're told that it "arouses sinful passions." Now that we're free from the law, we can live by the Spirit.

Salvation comes to us through faith, but that's not all. We also receive the Holy Spirit by faith, and it is the Spirit of God at work within us that produces righteousness that is pleasing to God.

All this talk of righteous deeds being required to earn or maintain one's salvation seems to be missing a very important point. Salvation and righteousness are both gifts, received by faith:

Romans 8:1-4 NIV
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

and

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love...

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.â€[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:4-6, 14&16 NIV

I agree. Salvation comes through faith, just not faith alone. Romans 3:27-31, the verses right before your favorite:

"Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

When Paul uses the word "works" he is speaking about works of the law, specifically circumcision. Paul uses Abraham as an example of someone who was justified before the law, before circumcision. Paul's "faith vs. works" writings don't speak to the subject of baptism, keeping the commandments, charity or any other obedient actions. These are also gifts of God, just like faith.

 

[heymikey80]

I know you're rejecting it. My point is I was not using the fallacy of equivocation, which I thought you were accusing me of.

No. I'm simply saying the statement itself is equivocal, and so it's not possible to agree or disagree with it in the words it's stated in.

Many, many times I find myself using equivocal words inadvertently. To me it's simply a question what the words mean to say -- which meaning is intended.

You probably have not read many of my posts, I know I only have time to read the posts addressed to me.

I can never be sure about that, but I've discerned at least your assertion about to be stated next.

I believe when Paul uses the word "works" he means "works of the law", specifically circumcision. You have to prove that when he uses the word, he is referring to EVERYTHING DONE or the doctrine of "it's only faith that saves" is not Biblical. Can you prove that?

Well, technically I'm not doing either one. However, I'll grant that this is normally what's asserted by those in your position.

Paul uses "works" as a counterpoint term to "faith". This is not the general Greek use of the term "works". He is using it in a special sense. When the word is used in this way -- and not in the conventional Greek sense of just "doing [things]" -- then Paul is using it in a special sense. But it's not about the Mosaic Law. In fact, Paul doesn't refer to "works of the law" except in two letters: Romans and Galatians. If "works-of-law" were meant, the other letters would be largely misunderstood by their recipients. The churches he sends letters to without "works of law" are predominantly in Gentile areas -- multiplying the confusion.

Paul has another definition, but it's not stated the same way in every letter, leading us to look around for a wider meaning -- not narrower -- of "works" in religion. And we find it in both the Greek and in Jewish theology, the idea that people are absolved of their sins before God by actions done in order to be absolved: whether that takes the form of ritualism, of sacrifice or sacrament, or of doing what God commands, "works" covers them all. In his longest letter Paul objects to them as a "work-for-wages" system of absolution (see Romans 4).

Again, I'm not denying that "works" includes "works-of-law", for the record. Paul uses "works-of-law" as an example. But I'm saying that Paul does not limit "works" to that. In Romans 4 he uses Abraham (pre-law) to illustrate the clear problem with a system of works-for-wages. It is this system, "doing certain things to gain / keep salvation", that Paul objects to.

Paul actually addresses multiple theologies within Judaism with this sweeping response. It sweeps Judaism off the table. And it nails Greek paganism into its coffin. In Paul's theology the Judaisms in his day are simply wrong about something critical, and that no Judaism can be embraced.

I'll assume you have not read all my posts in this thread, so don't know that I believe that faith is NOT a work. I don't believe baptism is a "work", neither are keeping the commandments or charity or sacrifice. These things are specifically called salvific in Scripture. Again, "works" to Paul are only "works of the law". I am making the point that IF a person believes that Paul's meaning is "all behavior" or "everything done", then that definition MUST include the ACT of "trusting in the blood of Christ" or "accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" or however you want to phrase it. To "HAVE FAITH' is, by definition, an act of the will, so to someone who believes that by "works" Paul means "all actions", this would logically include faith.

Therefore, and this is my main point, Paul doesn't mean "all actions or behaviors" by the word "works" only "works of the law".

Yet the Law commands us to believe, the Law commands us to keep its own commandments, the Law commands us to perform charitable acts and even to some extent to sacrifice for one another. The Law covers these points. They are indeed, "works of law". In fact the Ten Commandments are an obvious list of the Mosaic Law. They're what Moses delivered on tablets from Sinai. They're "the Law, the Ten Commandments".

Yes, faith does save. Without faith our good deeds are worthless.

Yet for Paul, your salvation is "not of works" (Ep 2:9). Paul doesn't even mention "works of law" in Ephesians. Why would he've omitted it?

Everything done, must be done "in faith" or it doesn't affect our salvation.

Yet Paul says "you have been saved ... not [out] of works" Ep 2:8-9 It hasn't come from your works, whether they were done in faith or not. No, Paul rather says "you have been saved through faith" Ep 2:8. That is, your salvation has come through your faith, not out of works, and "not out of yourselves". Ep 2:8

That's why Paul can say he "is saved", because it is faith that makes his deeds salvific. He also says he "is BEING saved" and tells the Philippians to "work out their salvation", which assumes cooperation with Grace.

Paul has already denied that deeds are salvific at all, not only in Eph 2:8-9, but in 2 Tim 1:9, Titus 3:5, Rom 3:27, Rom 4:5, Rom 9:32, confirmed in Heb 4:10, Heb 9:14.

I never claimed that the infant was "functioning in his will". I'm only using baptism as an example of salvation by Grace ALONE as opposed to salvation by "accepting" or "trusting", which ARE ACTS OF THE WILL and, therefore "works", if you believe Paul means "all acts". As I said above, you believe we must DO something (not resist, accept) in order to be saved. I'll ask again, which way seems closer to "works" salvation and which seems closer to salvation by pure Grace?

And therein lies the difference. I don't think Paul is referring to "doing" in its most general Greek way. Paul does scope "works" -- but not specifically by the example of "works-of-law". Paul is specifically calling out and denying any work-for-wages system of salvation. He specifically attacks this in Romans 4:1-5. It's done directly, plainly, openly.

As circumcision was entrance into the old Covenant, baptism is entrance into the new. Baptism supplanted circumcision

I didn't see the rite of circumcision as salvific. And correspondingly I don't see the rite of baptism as salvific either.

Is the GIFT of faith a Grace? Do you believe we EARN it? I'm going to guess "no". This is the same concept as baptism. God freely gives faith, God freely gives baptism. You clearly believe we must "accept" this Gift of faith or we are not saved. Is this "accepting" an act of the will? Is it then a "work"?

That's an interesting question, but again, I don't think God changing our will constitutes our work. The will makes decisions, but making decisions isn't particularly the work Paul has in view. I think God changes wills, through which He saves people, and works follow. Note the idea of "through faith" not "out of faith". I quoted the Westminster Confession to this effect earlier.

So it can't possibly save? Again, you are making the case for (in your opinion) "works salvation".

As above, that's not the case. Not only is being baptized a passive action (so not my works), its performance no more saves than circumcision (so not by works).

Do you mean "His rest" in Heb. 4? This seems to be referring primarily to the afterlife. "Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it." I'll wait for your response to comment.

Hebrews 3-4 is talking about entering God's rest Today, not about the afterlife.

I agree that salvation is by GRACE ALONE. My only question is why does this "gift of God" is limited to ONLY faith? Could this concept of "Grace alone" be broadened to include other things that ostensibly "must be done" in order to be saved? We MUST accept God's gift of faith IN ORDER to be saved, right? The Confession states that, basically (and I don't want to get accused of "equivocation"), even our acceptance is a "gift from God", right? We (Catholics) believe that both "the will to work and the work itself" are Graces, as do you (I think). The only difference is that this Grace is applied to ALL our actions (baptism, commandment keeping, prayer, charity), not faith alone.

As stated in the citation, the power of Christ's blood is by grace, but through faith. And as stated in the thread, it's salvation through faith because God promises to change hearts of faith; not because God sees faith in people as if it's some kind of work.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The long answer, Unless we do as he commands (do something or it would not require it to be a command) we are NOT righteous... if we do as he commands (did something) we are righteous...

Am I made righteous by doing righteous things, or am I showing the righteousness I have received in Christ by doing righteous things?

...if we are righteous and fail to continue doing what he commands, we are not righteous anymore, if we have once done as he commands, then slipped, then repent we are in alignment once again and once again righteous... (notice all that doing stuff?)

This is exactly what Christ died to save us from--the righteousness of law, the righteousness of doing righteous things; the righteousness of human effort and merit. Nobody can be declared righteous on the merit of what they do...not even a person who is in Christ. The gospel is all about a righteousness that is not our own, but given to us as a free gift, not given in return for doing righteous things (that would be our righteousness):

"For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith..." (Romans 1:17 NIV1984)

Short answer yes, but it is not what I am saying it is what the Bible is saying...

That is the very definition of the works gospel...that we are saved on the basis of doing righteous things. Paul says very plainly that just isn't true:

"...God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB)

"4...when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy" (Titus 3:4-5 NASB)

Everything you think the Bible is teaching about works righteousness has to be filtered through this Biblical truth; that right standing with God is not given on the basis of satisfactory performance of righteous things, but on the basis of believing that God will forgive your sins through Jesus Christ. IOW, on the basis of his mercy and grace.

Think about it. The only way sinful man can be righteous is to have his unrighteousness removed...through the forgiveness of that sin. IOW, by grace. It's impossible to perform satisfactorily to be declared righteous by God by that righteous behavior. It's impossible to remove sin guilt through the effort of good behavior. Impossible. People who came to Christ without a single plea in their defense understand this very, very well. That's why they came to Christ--to receive his mercy and grace and get what they know they can not manufacture on their own.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is "believe" the same as "believe only"?


Is the phrase:

"whosoever believeth in Him should not perish"

the same as or different from:

"whosoever believeth only in Him should not perish"?

 

[BobE]

I agree. Salvation comes through faith, just not faith alone. Romans 3:27-31, the verses right before your favorite:

"Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

When Paul uses the word "works" he is speaking about works of the law, specifically circumcision. Paul uses Abraham as an example of someone who was justified before the law, before circumcision. Paul's "faith vs. works" writings don't speak to the subject of baptism, keeping the commandments, charity or any other obedient actions. These are also gifts of God, just like faith.

Hi there Dadof10,

I don't see where you and I are saying anything different.

Just to summarize my thoughts, I believe we receive salvation through faith in Jesus and his work on the cross on our behalf. I believe that we also receive the Holy Spirit who works within us to produce the righteousness of God in our lives.

I see this as a separate process from attempting to merit salvation by keeping the law of the Old Testament, including the observance of rituals like circumcision.

I'm aware that our faith in Christ can be expressed through actions like baptism, taking communion etc. I do not see these actions as "works of the law" to merit salvation. I see them as expressions of our faith.

When I'm kind to a neighbour, for example, this is not a "work of the law" designed to merit salvation. It is "faith expressing itself through love."

When I was baptized it was an expression of my faith that I now belong to Christ, that my old life has passed away, and that a new life for God has begun.

When I take communion it is an expression of my faith that Christ's blood was shed and his body broken for my sins. It's an outward expression and reinforcement of an inner belief.

As James' suggests, my faith and its outward expressions cannot, and should not, be separated.

Does that make sense?

 

[BobE]

Is "believe" the same as "believe only"?


Is the phrase:

"whosoever believeth in Him should not perish"

the same as or different from:

"whosoever believeth only in Him should not perish"?

Hi Ernest,

As I was just saying to Dadof10, I think a biblical faith expresses itself in action. The actions are the outward expression of an inner reality.

If I'm one with Christ, dead to sin, alive to God, filled with His Holy Spirit. This will be evident in my love for my neighbour.

If I say I have faith, but don't love my neighbour, something has gone awry. I believe one can say this without promoting a salvation that is earned by keeping the law of the Old Testament.

I believe genuine faith expresses itself in a life characterized by the love of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,

As I was just saying to Dadof10, I think a biblical faith expresses itself in action. The actions are the outward expression of an inner reality.

If I'm one with Christ, dead to sin, alive to God, filled with His Holy Spirit. This will be evident in my love for my neighbour.

If I say I have faith, but don't love my neighbour, something has gone awry. I believe one can say this without promoting a salvation that is earned by keeping the law of the Old Testament.

I believe genuine faith expresses itself in a life characterized by the love of God.

I agree that belief is an action therefore belief only is void of action. So believeth and believeth only are two completely different things.

In Lk 13:3,5 Jesus said..nay except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.

John said whosoever that believeth should not perish.

So we have:

Jesus saying repent or perish

John saying believe or perish

Since the bible harmonizes and there is just one way to be saved (not perish) then belief must include repentance whereas belief only would exclude repentance and undermines Jesus' words of Lk 13:3,5.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since the bible harmonizes and there is just one way to be saved (not perish) then belief must include repentance whereas belief only would exclude repentance and undermines Jesus' words of Lk 13:3,5.

Why do you keep thinking 'faith apart from works' means faith does not have to do anything?

What 'faith apart from works' means is you are justified solely on the basis of your faith in the forgiveness of God, not on the basis of the works that genuine faith produces. Do you understand this? You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to understand the argument properly.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Why do you keep thinking 'faith apart from works' means faith does not have to do anything?

What 'faith apart from works' means is you are justified solely on the basis of your faith in the forgiveness of God, not on the basis of the works that genuine faith produces. Do you understand this? You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to understand the argument properly.

Faith is a work, so you cannot separate the two. Faith that justifies is a faith that includes the work of repentance. From Lk 13:3,5 repantance is just as necessary as belief to keep one from perishing. Therefore one does not 'believe only' to keep from perishing/be saved then later do the work of repenting to keep from perishing/be saved for repentance is part of belief.

EDIT:

Lev 17:11 "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood:..."

Similarly as the life of the flesh is in the blood, the life of faith is in the works. Remove the blood, kill the life. Likewise remove the works, kill the faith. As James said faith without works is dead and a dead faith only cannot save. So when you suggested one is justified solely on faith and not the works, you killed the faith by draining the works out of it...you tried to drain repentance (Lk 13:3,5) out of the belief (Jn 3:16) when repentance is just as necessary as belief to keep one from perishing. So belief only will not keep one from perishing for repentance is also required to keep one from perishing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith is a work, so you cannot separate the two. Faith that justifies is a faith that includes the work of repentance. From Lk 13:3,5 repantance is just as necessary as belief to keep one from perishing. Therefore one does not 'believe only' to keep from perishing/be saved then later do the work of repenting to keep from perishing/be saved for repentance is part of belief.

EDIT:

Lev 17:11 "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood:..."

Similarly as the life of the flesh is in the blood, the life of faith is in the works. Remove the blood, kill the life. Likewise remove the works, kill the faith. As James said faith without works is dead and a dead faith only cannot save. So when you suggested one is justified solely on faith and not the works, you killed the faith by draining the works out of it...you tried to drain repentance (Lk 13:3,5) out of the belief (Jn 3:16) when repentance is just as necessary as belief to keep one from perishing. So belief only will not keep one from perishing for repentance is also required to keep one from perishing.

So then it's clear...whether you actually realize it yourself or not, you're saying men make themselves righteous by what they do.

That is the exact gospel of works that removes a person from the grace of God. It makes grace no longer grace. How can you not see this?

Paul makes a very clear and distinct difference between trusting (in the forgiveness of God) and working (but you say they are the same):

"...to the man who does not (rely on) work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith (not his work) is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5 NIV1984 emphasis and parenthesis mine)

It's impossible to make yourself righteous and qualified for salvation by what you do. That is not sufficient payment to remove unrighteousness. The only way to be made righteous is to be forgiven by God through Christ Jesus.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So then it's clear...whether you actually realize it yourself or not, you're saying men make themselves righteous by what they do.

That is the exact gospel of works that removes a person from the grace of God. It makes grace no longer grace. How can you not see this?

Paul makes a very clear and distinct difference between trusting (in the forgiveness of God) and working (but you say they are the same):

"...to the man who does not (rely on) work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith (not his work) is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5 NIV1984 emphasis and parenthesis mine)

It's impossible to make yourself righteous and qualified for salvation by what you do. That is not sufficient payment to remove unrighteousness. The only way to be made righteous is to be forgiven by God through Christ Jesus.

No, man cannot make himself righteous in and of himself. It is God that accounts man as righteous. So the question is why does God account some men righteous and not others? Those that have an obedient faith are the ones God accounts as righteous.

John said he that doeth righteousness is righteous, 1 Jn 3:7.

Psa 119:172 says all God's commandments are righteousness.

So those that doeth God's commands is reckoned righteous by God. As Peter said in Acts 10:35 he that worketh righteousness (does God's commands as in Acts 10:47,48) is accepted with God.

Eze 18:20-22 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live."

One is righteous because he does righteous and one is wicked because he does wickedness. So how does the wicked become righteous? By obedience to God's will...the wicked must turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

How or can the righteous become wicked? "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."


So righteousness is something that has to be done to be righteous and wickedness must be done to be wicked which refutes the idea some have that one is a sinner before he even sins or one is righteous before he even does righteousness.

(This refutes etenal security, but that's off topic from this thread.)



You quoted Rom 4:5 and it just so happens I started a thread on that exact verse entitled "The Worker Vs. the Non-worker Who Believes". Take a look at it.