So, the sacrifice of Christ did nothing to save.
Jesus said, "it is finished."
Why does your church want to add to what is already finished?
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
THE YOUNG MAN SAVED
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
Jesus said, "it is finished."
Why does your church want to add to what is already finished?
“It is finished” does not mean redemption or salvation
“It is finished” are the words the high priest must say at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice
1 Corinthians 5:6-8
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
The grace to do penance comes from Christ Jn 1:16-17
Christ is the only source of grace
I used to be Catholic, but I Reformed.
Why do you assume he was bound for salvation, Jeremiah?
He was a son of Abraham and was a conscious observer of the Law.
Thus, he was Covenant.
Also, this narrative is addressed in the synoptic gospel, that is, Mark and Luke also possess information to understand what took place:
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
Mk 10:17–22.
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. Lk 18:18–22.
In Mark it says Jesus 'beheld' him and loved him. If Jesus loves 'you,' He will save 'you.' If Jesus doesn't love 'you' He will not save 'you.'
That's the Immutability of God's Love. God loves and God hates.
Another thing to notice is Jesus tells the man he lacks one thing, and yet tells him three things to do:
Go sell all that you have,
give to the poor, and
come, follow Me.
Which of these did he lack?
Follow Me [Jesus.]
Another thing I also notice is that these are the same words given to Andrew and Peter, James and John, and Philip ("But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."
Mt 8:22 - scholars believe this was Philip Jesus was taking to.)
This is not a suggestion, but a command and a command that was obeyed, and in the case of this lawyer was soon obey, because although he had great possession, the order of the command was sell all you have, give to the poor. This would take some time.
THEN, come, follow me.
3000 souls were saved at Pentecost. He could've been among them and his inheritance into heaven which was his concern was assured.
That's how I see it.
But the trouble with this premise here is that it assumes God does not love those who don't come to Him.
I'm assuming you believe that God loves all men, yes? Or were you the one who was teaching that God only loves some? I don't remember if that was you or not.
I said nothing about coming to Him. But part of that salvation is that all whose names are in the book of life will be called and will come without fail.
God does not love all men. He loves His Church and died for her, both Old Testament and New Testament Church.
See, this statement right here.
How do you reconcile this with Matthew's gospel, where it says:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48).
Read my post: Law of God Part 2: Leviticus 19:17-18, so I don’t have to repost it here.
Comment there if you like.
There is no link to a post here. Only a link to Leviticus, which reads:
17 ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.
WHO IS MY NEIGHBOR?
THIS is my neighbor:
The Original Command of God to His people.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother [member of the same tribe] in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour [member of another tribe situated by God living next to another Covenant tribe], and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people [member of any tribe], but thou shalt love thy neighbour [member of another tribe situated by God living next to another Covenant tribe] as thyself: I am the Lord.
Lev. 19:17–18.
God situated the twelve tribes of the House of Israel around the Tabernacle. Three tribes to the north, three tribes to the east, three tribes to the south, and three tribes to the west. There were no Gentiles [Goyim] anywhere near as they had been destroyed by God through Joshua.
We have established Jesus didn’t change the Law where this Law is concerned the command remains: Brethren are to love brethren ONLY.
But what about the Samaritan? He was also in Covenant with God along with the priest and Levite. John 4:3-26
Yet in the Church the teaching of who is my neighbor is in error. Believers are taught to love the unsaved enemies of God. The teaching to “love your neighbor” is understood in the Church as unsaved people that live down the street or in the house or apartment next to you. To take this as the truth is either that Jesus changed the Law of God or that we are misunderstanding the original command (I doubt Christians even know where this original Law is found.)
15 Love not the world [unbelievers], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world [unsaved], the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 Jn 2:15–16.
There is no redundancy here. We are not instructed to not love the planet or the things in the planet. The word “world” (Gr. Kosmos) also refers to the inhabitants as per Strong’s Greek/Hebrew. So, using ‘inhabitants’ makes more sense than ‘planet’ (the first earth day, huh?)
Did Jesus change the Law?
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour [member of another tribe], and hate thine enemy [Northern tribe member hating Southern tribe member and vice versa].
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies [Northern tribe member love their Southern tribe member and vice versa], bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren [member of the same tribe] only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Mt 5:43–48.
Jesus Christ was Prophesied as a “prophet like unto me [Moses] taken from among their brethren (Covenant twelve tribes).” John the Baptist and Jesus Christ declared that Messiah was sent to Israel (Covenant) and to the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Covenant).
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. Jn 1:31.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15:24.
The background: Even while under Roman conquest Israel which consisted of two kingdoms Northern and Southern were still at odds with each other. There was still animosity between the twelve tribes. Jesus is trying to get brethren who loved only brethren of the same tribes to love their neighbor who were members of the other warring tribes. This is the context of Jesus’ words to “love [your] neighbor.” He did not instruct Israel of twelve tribes to love the Pagan, heathen Romans, or Assyrians, or Babylonians, or any other non-Covenant person or group of persons.
So, what about the world of unsaved, reprobate, unbelieving non-Covenant heathen enemies of God?
We are to “RESPECT” them.
Throughout Scripture God declares “Behold!” many times to His Covenant people. He even repeats Himself. But taking the English word “re-spect” which is compound of two words to make one word: “re” meaning “again” and “spect” meaning “to look.” Thus, we are to “look again” [respect] at who we are dealing with and to act accordingly. After all, there is reason why we are to test the spirit whether they are of God.” 1 John 4:1-2.
Thus, Jesus didn’t change the Law but upheld it. As the original command instructs Israel to love brethren ONLY.
Jesus Christ gives His people the same command, especially in the post-kingdom age, for Christians in Covenant with God are to love fellow Christians in Covenant with God.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Jn 13:34–35.
We should not call just anyone "my brethren" until we first know whether or not they are true brethren and we have the same Father.
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Mt. 5:48.
Ok, the two problems here:
First of all, this statement assumes that those whom Jesus called enemies in Matthew 5 are not unsaved people then, correct?
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48).
So my first question is what type of saved person would curse, hate and persecute the church without repentance?
Correctomundo
It depends. Each sinful case is different. Purpose is different. Motivation is different.
And if the person is truly saved, He cannot sin against God in this way. He KNOWS the Father.
For five years once I was angry with God because I believed He was going to do something in my life, but He did something else and I suffered greatly.
I would not pray but I never cursed Him out or any other believer. It was between God and me.
Then one night on the floor unable to sleep I made a confession to someone about God and His Spirit flooded me, I sensed His forgiveness, and He restored me to fellowship with Himself.
I also heard His voice speak to me inside my being a very important Word that I still cling to today.
My saying "I'm sorry, forgive me" was not spoken. I was just restored in a moment in time.
Those that were never saved would curse, hate, and persecute the Church which is tantamount to persecuting God (Paul.)
Those that are unsaved.
If you know someone who cursed, hated, and persecuted the Church I would doubt his or her salvation. No true Christian no matter what will ever do that.
They KNOW God. They may act childish and self-destructive, but it is always between God and the person, not the Church.
I did not know there was another covenant?
Someone might say saul was a Protestant before his conversion
Thanks
Not sure you understood my question.
Again, your statement was, "In the Church, the teaching of who is my neighbor is in error. Believers are taught to love the unsaved enemies of God." So I responded that this statement assumes those whom Jesus called enemies in Matthew 5 must therefore be saved people, and my question therefore was, what type of saved person would curse, hate and persecute the church without repentance?
If it is "correct" that the enemies He was referring to in Matthew 5 were SAVED people, how can you turn around and then say, "if the person is truly saved, He cannot sin against God in this way"? You are contradicting yourself here.
Well, as Saul, yes, he was. He protested the Church.
The original command of God in who to love is that Israel is to love Israel ONLY. Covenant twelve tribes.
Jesus in Matthew 5 is still addressing Israel and the 'enemy' here are the still warring or antagonistic members of the twelve tribes among themselves, northern and southern kingdom residuals.
As far as its application to the Church, which is a continuation of the Great Congregation that is Israel we are to love brethren in the Church who are saved ONLY.
There is no change in the original Law.
I do not believe a truly saved person will ever curse God, hate God, or persecute His people.
He KNOWS God.
I don't believe the Holy Spirit will allow it.
AND, if it does occur, I maintain it may be an outburst of ignorant anger.
But it will subside. There must be sin in order to produce repentance at the appointed time.
But a true believer saved by God would never act that way towards God.
He KNOWS God.
But Jesus didn't call them "antagonistic" and He didn't call them "brethren," LoL. He called them enemies.
Your teaching appears to be that Jesus taught to love Jewish enemies but hate Gentile ones. If both were blaspheming the name of Christ and putting Christians to death through persecution, how is it that Jewish enemies got a pass?
There is no command in the Old Testament Law for Israel to love any non-Covenant people.
There is no command for Christians to love non-Covenant people.
At the time of Jesus' arrival the ten Northern Kingdom tribes were enemies with the Southern Kingdom tribes. Their animosity stretched from the last kings of Israel and Judah, and most likely into exile, although maybe some tribes tried to get along for the sake of survival.
But when Israel returned to rebuild their cities and nation, they went back to being enemies at most and discourteous and antagonistic at the least.
Jesus didn't have to single them out He was prophesied to Israel and He came to Israel God's Chosen people. The prophecy in Deuteronomy was "Him shall you hear," and so to Israel He taught.
Jeremiah, He said, "Love those who persecute you." It was not only the Jews who persecuted Christians, but the Gentiles as well. You are changing the verse into saying, "Love the Jews who persecute you to death, but hate the Gentiles even if they treat you like their best friend," Lol.
"Enemies at most..." How bad does it need to be? They blasphemed Him, they accused Him of sorcery and serving Satan, they plotted to have him murdered incessantly, and eventually had Him crucified. You are saying these people were loved by God whereas the Gentiles - like the centurion whose daughter was healed for believing in Christ's authority - were hated?
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