THE YOUNG MAN SAVED

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah, He said, "Love those who persecute you." It was not only the Jews who persecuted Christians, but the Gentiles as well. You are changing the verse into saying, "Love the Jews who persecute you to death, but hate the Gentiles even if they treat you like their best friend," Lol.

Jesus was speaking to Israel. The command is for Covenant brethren of the twelve tribes of Israel to love their brethren of the same tribe and their neighbor of another tribe.
When Jesus said this only Israel were Christian who waited for their Messiah/Christ.

"Enemies at most..." How bad does it need to be? They blasphemed Him, they accused Him of sorcery and serving Satan, they plotted to have him murdered incessantly, and eventually had Him crucified. You are saying these people were loved by God whereas the Gentiles - like the centurion whose daughter was healed for believing in Christ's authority - were hated?

I don't know who in Israel would eventually be saved because of the Work of Christ on the cross.
But at least 3000 Jews Peter preached to became saved. I'm sure there were some in this crowd that cried out "Crucify Him!" I'm also sure the darkness for three hour in the land before Jesus expired would have brought terror and change of mind to many. Even the centurion said, "This truly was the Son of God." A centurion, mind you.
According to Scripture a centurion love Israel, even built them a synagogue - possibly with his own money or with his own hands.
I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee, was the promise to father Abe.
Although God used as instrument for his purposes the Roman legal system it was God who smitten His Son according to Isaiah.
No one took His life. He laid it down. And He took it up again. So, how can anyone be held guilty for the death of the Son of God.
God would not allow a mere man or mob of men to kill His Son. This was an act of God, not men.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus was speaking to Israel. The command is for Covenant brethren of the twelve tribes of Israel to love their brethren of the same tribe and their neighbor of another tribe.
When Jesus said this only Israel were Christian who waited for their Messiah/Christ.

Yes, but you could say that to argue that nothing Jesus said could ever apply to a Gentile, or that Jesus would ever speak to or allow His words to be taught to a Gentile at all.

The same is true with His section on "He sends His rain on the just and the unjust." You are apparently saying that Jesus was communicating He only sends His rain upon the Jewish just and unjust, and that the Gentile world is like just getting it by accident or something, but the whole thing just comes off as a strange and unnatural reading to me.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes, but you could say that to argue that nothing Jesus said could ever apply to a Gentile, or that Jesus would ever speak to or allow His words to be taught to a Gentile at all.

The same is true with His section on "He sends His rain on the just and the unjust." You are apparently saying that Jesus was communicating He only sends His rain upon the Jewish just and unjust, and that the Gentile world is like just getting it by accident or something, but the whole thing just comes off as a strange and unnatural reading to me.

First, the Law of Moses never applied to Gentiles.
Second, Christ was prophesied to and for Israel and He came to and for Israel.
Since Christ came to and for Israel and brought better understanding to Israel concerning their Law, then No, what Christ taught was the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets to and for Israel.
But now that the Holy Spirit [Comforter] has come and realizing the Law is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit in now not only with but in believers, the Law in this fashion applies to Gentile believers in that instead of instructing and commanding Israel (and Gentile converts) from the outside, He is now inside the believer - "Jew" and Gentile alike - and we are being made into one flock. The Holy Spirit is that Law God promised to put in the inward parts of His people to guide them from within.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:31–34.

When you read and study Scripture realize it is a "Jewish" phenomenon and that first and foremost it is to be understood as being applicable to the "Jew" first, and then also to the Greek/Gentile.

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. Rom. 2:10.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom. 3:29–31.

The context is extremely important. Read it as to the "Jew" first and when you have understood the original meaning and intent, then seek application to the Gentile believer.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The context is extremely important. Read it as to the "Jew" first and when you have understood the original meaning and intent, then seek application to the Gentile believer.

That's what I am doing. No reply to my argument?

 

[jeremiah1five]

That's what I am doing. No reply to my argument?

The context is Covenant just and unjust.
He sends rain upon an area, but He is speaking to the twelve tribes separated by their kingdom animosity.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The context is Covenant just and unjust.
He sends rain upon an area, but He is speaking to the twelve tribes separated by their kingdom animosity.

Overall, your argument is concisely cut an dried, but it assaults common sense in many places, and forces one to interpret passages in very unnatural ways. This would be one of them. The most detrimental effect of your teaching is that it undermines the teaching that God is love. If He is only a God of love to those He's in covenant with, then to proclaim He is a God of love as a blanket statement becomes a falsehood and a lie.

But I personally believe it to be an accurate description of His character, and feel it is an integral part of the gospel message. There are many who teach He is a God of hate, and unfortunately this teaching of yours plays into that I'm afraid.

God bless, and thanks for the polite discussion anyway,
- H

 

[jeremiah1five]

Overall, your argument is concisely cut an dried, but it assaults common sense in many places, and forces one to interpret passages in very unnatural ways. This would be one of them. The most detrimental effect of your teaching is that it undermines the teaching that God is love. If He is only a God of love to those He's in covenant with, then to proclaim He is a God of love as a blanket statement becomes a falsehood and a lie.

That's correct. Blanket statement to unbelievers is potentially a lie and falsehood. And who is the father of lies?
NO ONE knows whose name is in the book of life.
So, to say to everyone that "God loves you" is pretty presumptuous, and if that person dies without Christ, then you become a liar for Christ died for His Church, He did not die for the whole world.
I stopped telling people that are unsaved "God loves you" because I don't know if God loves them and I am conscious about being a liar. That is a cruel thing to do to people.
But I can say "God loves you" to believers because if they are saved then that is proof of God's love. I can say, "God bless you" to believers but it depends on the context.

But I personally believe it to be an accurate description of His character, and feel it is an integral part of the gospel message. There are many who teach He is a God of hate, and unfortunately this teaching of yours plays into that I'm afraid.

God is Immutable.
God loves and God hates. He doesn't alternate between them both.
He doesn't hate someone one day and then love them the next day.
From the garden there have always been two groups of people: The seed of the woman (Christ and those in Christ), and the seed of the serpent. Do you believe God loves the seed of the serpent?
These two groups carry over in the New Testament:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Jn 17:6.

The two groups are "THEM" and "the world."

Read the whole chapter and see how Christ makes distinction between "THEM" and "the world."

Christ didn't even pray for the world:

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Jn 17:9.

God bless, and thanks for the polite discussion anyway,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

NO ONE knows whose name is in the book of life.
So, to say to everyone that "God loves you" is pretty presumptuous

No, you make a jump in your logic here, which is maybe where you are making your mistake. You assume that if they are not saved then God does not love them. But John taught that God IS love, which means He doesn't stop loving others just because some reject Him, whereas your theology insinuates that He does.

But we're not gonna be getting anywhere, cuz your mind is made up, so I suppose it will have to be the Lord Himself who shows you otherwise.

God bless,
- H

 

[jeremiah1five]

No, you make a jump in your logic here, which is maybe where you are making your mistake. You assume that if they are not saved then God does not love them. But John taught that God IS love, which means He doesn't stop loving others just because some reject Him, whereas your theology insinuates that He does.

But we're not gonna be getting anywhere, cuz your mind is made up, so I suppose it will have to be the Lord Himself who shows you otherwise.

God bless,
- H

Christ died for His Church.
Is the world of unbelievers His Church?
God hates the sin AND The sinner.

Psalm 5:5 (KJV 1900): 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

The word “workers” is personal pronoun meaning the person.

Psalm 11:5 (KJV 1900): 5 The Lord trieth the righteous:
But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

The “wicked “ is a personal pronoun meaning the person.

Any questions?

Or will you sacrifice the Word of God for leaning on your own understanding? Remember this.

1 Samuel 15:23 (KJV 1900): 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord,
He hath also rejected thee from being king.

Is that what your desire is?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Any questions?

Yes.

1. Comfortable with how it turns Him into the God of Hate, i.e. Satan?

2. What have you found the Satanists think your theology? I ask because it bears a strong resemblance.

3. Does the God of the Christians approve of the same things the Satanists do? Because He appears to walk in the exact same spirit, at least according to you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes.

1. Comfortable with how it turns Him into the God of Hate, i.e. Satan?

2. What have you found the Satanists think your theology? I ask because it bears a strong resemblance.

3. Does the God of the Christians approve of the same things the Satanists do? Because He appears to walk in the exact same spirit, at least according to you.

Btw, you asked if I had questions, so those would be my legitimate ones. Give me what your substantive answers would be. It's what most Christians would come to in reading your theology.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes.

1. Comfortable with how it turns Him into the God of Hate, i.e. Satan?

So, God loves sin, then?

2. What have you found the Satanists think your theology? I ask because it bears a strong resemblance.

I don't know. Bring them to me and I'll go at it with these false idol worshipers.

3. Does the God of the Christians approve of the same things the Satanists do? Because He appears to walk in the exact same spirit, at least according to you.

No, God hates sin.
There. God hates.
Tell me, does God love everyone?

 

[Hidden In Him]

So, God loves sin, then?

Well of course not. He hates sin. The argument is over whether He still loves the sinner or not, and I think you are over-reading your verses to say that He will remain in a perpetual state of Hatred for eternity.

I don't know. Bring them to me and I'll go at it with these false idol worshipers.

Stick around long enough. I've been dealing with them my whole life.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Well of course not. He hates sin. The argument is over whether He still loves the sinner or not, and I think you are over-reading your verses to say that He will remain in a perpetual state of Hatred for eternity.


Stick around long enough. I've been dealing with them my whole life.

Once His enemies have been dealt with all that's left are those He loves.
But while TIME exists and those whose names are NOT in the book of life remain then God hates those He has chosen NOT to save.
Their unatoned sin is the basis of His judgment against them.
I take Scripture literally. Unless the context calls for a spiritualization of the text.
But I shown you through Psalms 5:5 and 11:5 how God hates the workers of iniquity and the wicked.
Your choice to disbelieve Scripture is unChristian.
Here's more:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted (created) to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom. 9:20–23.

The words of Christ Himself:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Jn 17:6–10.

Martin Luther calls this prayer of Jesus Christ the Holy of Holies prayer.
The High Priest does two things:
He prays for the people of God,
And He offers sacrifices for the people of God.
Christ did BOTH for THEM, those He called OUT of the world (of unbelievers) vs. 6.
Notice Christ DID NOT pray for the world, so the world is unatoned.
Do you think God is going to love His enemies He sends to the Lake of Fire all the way INTO the Lake of Fire?
If you want to love the unsaved go ahead and commit treason to the King.
Love God's enemies.
Because if you say to them, "God loves you," you are a liar for you don't know who God is going to save and the weeping and gnashing of teeth just might be the unsaved in hell as they think about the words you once told them, that "God loves you!"

 

[Hidden In Him]

Your choice to disbelieve Scripture is unChristian.

Jeremiah, you have no idea what "choices" I've made because you are obsessed night and day with only what you think. The one choice that should be obvious at this point is that I don't believe every word coming out of your mouth. Is that the definition of what it means to be a "Christian" now? That Jeremiah1five is infallible, and all who do not obey Him utterly and without reservation are going to Hell? It sounds like that is what you are saying here.

I'm guessing you're about to tell me Yes, that's exactly what you mean, Lol.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah, you have no idea what "choices" I've made because you are obsessed night and day with only what you think. The one choice that should be obvious at this point is that I don't believe every word coming out of your mouth. Is that the definition of what it means to be a "Christian" now? That Jeremiah1five is infallible, and all who do not obey Him utterly and without reservation are going to Hell? It sounds like that is what you are saying here.

I'm guessing you're about to tell me Yes, that's exactly what you mean, Lol.

You treat the Word of God as fallible.
I post the Scripture that says God hates sin and unatoned sinner and you disbelieve it.
That's calling God a liar.

1 Jn. 5:9-10.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I post the Scripture that says God hates sin and unatoned sinner and you disbelieve it.

I don't subscribe to what you make of it, and you know of it, Lol.

As you wish, Jeremiah. If you're determined to tell the world that God isn't Love, He's Hate, there may not be much point talking about it anymore.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I don't subscribe to what you make of it, and you know of it, Lol.

As you wish, Jeremiah. If you're determined to tell the world that God isn't Love, He's Hate, there may not be much point talking about it anymore.

I never said that.
You seem to misunderstand most of what I did say.
I just don’t go around prostituting myself with unbelievers.
What God gives the believer is meant for other believers.
It’s not meant for the world.
You just don’t understand God’s love and it shows.
Sad.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It’s not meant for the world.

If it's not "meant for the world," then why did Jesus say God so loved the world? Don't tell me, Jesus didn't actually mean it, because He actually HATED most of them, correct?

According to your theology, He only loves those He is covenant with, so by extension we can assume that everyone in the world was in covenant with Him when He said, and there were no sinners in the earth. This is what I am supposed to believe or I simply "don't understand God's love."

 

[jeremiah1five]

If it's not "meant for the world," then why did Jesus say God so loved the world? Don't tell me, Jesus didn't actually mean it, because He actually HATED most of them, correct?

According to your theology, He only loves those He is covenant with, so by extension we can assume that everyone in the world was in covenant with Him when He said, and there were no sinners in the earth. This is what I am supposed to believe or I simply "don't understand God's love."

Qualify the word "world."
The word is specific to its subject.
To us the word world means everyone, or the whole planet, but in context to its subject it means those whose names are in the book of life. And that doesn't mean the whole world. Its specific to its subject.
Like, the world of insects, or the world mammals, etc.
Learn language and linguistics of Greek and Hebrew, the original language of the Bible.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16.

IF God loved the world we know not everyone will be saved, right? So, what's wrong with God's love that it can't save that for which it loves?
And if God loves the world (everybody) is this love going to follow the condemned all the way to the Lake of Fire and beyond in their eternal suffering?
And you read 3:16 at the expense of verses 19-20:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light [CHRIST] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [CHRIST], because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light [CHRIST], neither cometh to the light [CHRIST], lest his deeds should be reproved. Jn 3:19–20.

What good is God's love if it doesn't save.
As you can see there are people "CONDEMNED ALREADY."
Men love darkness, they don't love the Light [Christ.]
Next, everyone that doeth evil - and that's everyone - HATES THE LIGHT [Christ], so you think they'll overcome their hated of Christ and go to Him?
Next, it says [they] "NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT [Christ]."
So, if they hate Christ and do not go to Him then HOW will they be saved?
The answer is God does the saving despite these hatred-filled stiff-necked people.
What good is God loves the world (everyone) but no one gets saved?
Ah, but since there's a Church Christ died for someone was saved. But How?
God did it.
God did the saving. Despite the attitude and station of sinful man against God it was God that intervened in their lives and saved His Elect, those whose names are in the book of life, the world of souls whose names are in the book of life.
It says Christ died for His Church. He loves His Church.
Where does that leave the rest of the "world of unbelievers" (world of insects, world of dolphins, etc)?
IF Christ loved the Church and died for her where does that leave those He did not die for?
Lake of Fire.
Bring your understanding of salvation into compliance to the Word of God.
God loves His people.
And God hates those NOT His people.
God is Immutable (He does not change.)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom. 3:10–18.

You read this but do you REALLY understand it?
To continue to believe that people can choose Christ or that God loves everyone is a lie. You are believing in lies.
Reason it out.
If you can.