[__ Science __ ] Theistic Evolution Is Not the Real Problem!

[dwb001]

Mars time is slower than Earth Time. An earth day is 24 hours, Mars days are 39 earth hours long

No Mars time is not slower than Earth time.
The days are different lengths.
Are seconds different times on Mars?
You are confusing day length with actual time.

If time was different in different locations in the universe, then space probes and rovers would not work.
The times of transmissions from and to the probe would not arrive at a correct time.
The clock cycles on a space probe would not be the same as on Earth.
No computer would work in space reliably.
So no "science" in space would be reliable.

How long do astronauts aboard the ISS sleep for? Hours, seconds, or millennia?

 

[Milk-Drops]

No Mars time is not slower than Earth time.
The days are different lengths.
Are seconds different times on Mars?
You are confusing day length with actual time.

Yes, a second is slower on Mars. A second is a measure of a pendulum traveling and reseting along a cubit. On Mars the pendulum would take longer to reset. That is how time is measured. Its an arbitrary measurement.

If time was different in different locations in the universe, then space probes and rovers would not work.

No the time dilation is taken into the data.

The times of transmissions from and to the probe would not arrive at a correct time.
The clock cycles on a space probe would not be the same as on Earth.

I think you misunderstand. Time is. Measurement. We can set any specific man made numbers in. The clicks on satalit3s are measuring earth time, but not relative time. The biggest contention is that if we take the order of creation literally, we would not be able to accurately measure time until the sun, earth rotation, and solar system were in place.

No computer would work in space reliably.
So no "science" in space would be reliable.

No, relativity is taken into account when using time in space.

How long do astronauts aboard the ISS sleep for? Hours, seconds, or millennia?

To them probably hours. To us it's relative based on where they are in orbit.

 

[dwb001]

Yes, a second is slower on Mars. A second is a measure of a pendulum traveling and reseting along a cubit. On Mars the pendulum would take longer to reset. That is how time is measured. Its an arbitrary measurement.

No the time dilation is taken into the data.

I think you misunderstand. Time is. Measurement. We can set any specific man made numbers in. The clicks on satalit3s are measuring earth time, but not relative time. The biggest contention is that if we take the order of creation literally, we would not be able to accurately measure time until the sun, earth rotation, and solar system were in place.


No, relativity is taken into account when using time in space.

To them probably hours. To us it's relative based on where they are in orbit.

Nope... I don't buy it.
A pendulum would be how you measure time... not what time is. You said it yourself.
Sorry you misunderstand the conversation... but you are getting into the details and confusing the thing with the perception of the thing.

Just because you don't have a point of reference does not mean you lose time itself.
Time is not measurement... time is a measurement. Totally different.
Does one thing happen after another?
You say Earth time and Relative time... but you don't define time itself.
You are looking at different measures/standards of time... but not time itself.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Nope... I don't buy it.
A pendulum would be how you measure time... not what time is.

Time is a measurement. The measurement is based around the traveling of a pendulum. Relatively takes gravity and positioning into effect, so time measures differently based on where in the universe you are relative to Earth.

You said it yourself.
Sorry you misunderstand the conversation... but you are getting into the details and confusing the thing with the perception of the thing

Nah, I followed the conversation. Literal man made days are based around sun positioning. The sun didn't exist until day 4. So pure perception of days would not match.

Just because you don't have a point of reference does not mean you lose time itself.

Considering time is a measurement, without a point of refrence you can not measure relative time.

Time is not measurement... time is a measurement. Totally different.
Does one thing happen after another?

Sure, but relative to what? Sun up, to sun down? Cubits? Travels Round a planet? You need. Point of refrence.

You say Earth time and Relative time... but you don't define time itself.

Time is a measurement of Movement around the sun or one cubit.

You are looking at different measures/standards of time... but not time itself.

Time is also subject to gravity. Time is different in a black hole relative to Earth.

 

[dwb001]

Time is a measurement. The measurement is based around the traveling of a pendulum. Relatively takes gravity and positioning into effect, so time measures differently based on where in the universe you are relative to Earth.

Again you are talking about "measurement of time" and I am talking about time.
What do you not understand about the difference?
We are NOT talking about the same thing.
You are going off on a tangent that does not apply to the conversation.

Nah, I followed the conversation. Literal man made days are based around sun positioning. The sun didn't exist until day 4. So pure perception of days would not match.

"Man made days" there is a slip-up in your argument.
What about God made days?
The sun didn't exist... but light did.
Sonoluminescence... God spoke and light happened.
And a day is NOT based on the sun positioning... It is based on the rotation of the Earth.
A day can be calculated by reference to any thing that the Earth turns to see.
That can include a sourceless light source.

Considering time is a measurement, without a point of refrence you can not measure relative time.
Sure, but relative to what? Sun up, to sun down? Cubits? Travels Round a planet? You need. Point of refrence.
Time is a measurement of Movement around the sun or one cubit.
Time is also subject to gravity. Time is different in a black hole relative to Earth.

Time is NOT a measurement.
Time can be a way to measure something... but it exists if you measure with it or not.
A cubit is a forearm length... where do you get a cubit being a day?
Time is not different in a black hole relative to Earth... the length of time is different in a black hole relative to Earth.
Why can you not see that I am not talking about the experience of time... but time itself.

Sloppy science = sloppy thinking... and vice versa.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Again you are talking about "measurement of time" and I am talking about time.
What do you not understand about the difference?

Ok, describe this noun known as time without saying it's a measurement.

We are NOT talking about the same thing.
You are going off on a tangent that does not apply to the conversation.

I think it's more that you are operating within a vague definition of a concept of time and that if you want to apply 24 hour days to creation, it d9wsnt make sense if there was no sun for the first 4.

"Man made days" there is a slip-up in your argument.
What about God made days?

Exactly. We don't know what God is considering a day. We are retrofitting a man made construct to the creation of the Universe.

The sun didn't exist... but light did.
Sonoluminescence... God spoke and light happened.

God d8dnt put stars in the sky (the sun is a star) until day 4. So holy light?
[Quite]And a day is NOT based on the sun positioning... It is based on the rotation of the Earth.[/quote] And what does the esthetic rotate Round that dictates night and day? How sundials work? You know, the predecessors to pendulum clocks?.

A day can be calculated by reference to any thing that the Earth turns to see.

So what was being used pre sun?

That can include a sourceless light source.

So how do you know that was a 24 hour light source? The Bible doese not say a day is 24 hours.

Time is NOT a measurement.

Then describe the physical properties of time without calling it a measurement.

Time can be a way to measure something... but it exists if you measure with it or not.

Then explain the physical qualities of time.

A cubit is a forearm length... where do you get a cubit being a day?

I never said a cubit equals a fay. A pendulum swing for a second is based on the Egyptian cubit.

Time is not different in a black hole relative to Earth... the length of time is different in a black hole relative to Earth.

That is Stull a difference in time.

Why can you not see that I am not talking about the experience of time... but time itself.

Because Time is a measurement of events based on a refrence point. A day is Earth's rotation around the sun. Without the sun we need a different refrence point. If you use God's Holy Light, then we can not guarantee a 24 hr day.

Sloppy science = sloppy thinking... and vice versa.

Yes, Young Earth Creationism is very sloppy. It heavily relies on assumptions rather than demonstratable models.

 

[dwb001]

Ok, describe this noun known as time without saying it's a measurement.

What comes between the past, present and future.
What separates cause from effect.

I think it's more that you are operating within a vague definition of a concept of time and that if you want to apply 24 hour days to creation, it d9wsnt make sense if there was no sun for the first 4.

Doesn't make sense to you.
Just because you lack imagination don't put that on others.

Exactly. We don't know what God is considering a day. We are retrofitting a man made construct to the creation of the Universe.
God d8dnt put stars in the sky (the sun is a star) until day 4. So holy light?

Read my text.

[Quite]And a day is NOT based on the sun positioning... It is based on the rotation of the Earth.And what does the esthetic rotate Round that dictates night and day?

It's axis. Same as it does to this very moment.

How sundials work? You know, the predecessors to pendulum clocks?.

Sundials are mislabelled as their operating mechanism is light... not necessarily the sun. A dial will work off a streetlight... it won't move... but there is a shadow showing the relative position of the light source. Which is all a sundial does.

So what was being used pre sun?
So how do you know that was a 24 hour light source? The Bible doese not say a day is 24 hours.
Then describe the physical properties of time without calling it a measurement.
Then explain the physical qualities of time.

How would I know the answers to what was the light before the sun was made... I wasn't there.
Do you believe that after day four the days in Genesis were 24hr days?
If the days after day 4 were 24hr... where is the difference from day 3 to 4 in the text.

Do you not believe in the past, present or future?
Time is the unidirectional movement through the fourth dimension.

 

[Milk-Drops]

What comes between the past, present and future.
What separates cause from effect.

So you can not explain how time isn't a measurement?

Doesn't make sense to you.
Just because you lack imagination don't put that on others.

imagination is not science.

Read my text.

I did

It's axis. Same as it does to this very moment.

Cool, so how do you know the Earth had 24 hrs days during creation?

Sundials are mislabelled as their operating mechanism is light... not necessarily the sun. A dial will work off a streetlight... it won't move... but there is a shadow showing the relative position of the light source. Which is all a sundial does.

So day one could be an infinite amount of time then.

So what was being used pre sun?
So how do you know that was a 24 hour light source? The Bible doese not say a day is 24 hours.
Then describe the physical properties of time without calling it a measurement.
Then explain the physical qualities of time.

How would I know the answers to what was the light before the sun was made... I wasn't there.
Do you believe that after day four the days in Genesis were 24hr days?
If the days after day 4 were 24hr... where is the difference from day 3 to 4 in the text.

Do you not believe in the past, present or future?
Time is the unidirectional movement through the fourth dimension.
[/QUOTE]Then how can you say the creation days are 24 hrs? You are assuming an awful lot.

 

[dwb001]

So you can not explain how time isn't a measurement?

As I did in my example.

imagination is not science.

Never said it was.

I did

Cool, so how do you know the Earth had 24 hrs days during creation?

The rotation of the Earth has not changed to my knowledge.

So day one could be an infinite amount of time then.

What is your basis for that?

So what was being used pre sun?
So how do you know that was a 24 hour light source? The Bible doese not say a day is 24 hours.
Then describe the physical properties of time without calling it a measurement.
Then explain the physical qualities of time.

How would I know the answers to what was the light before the sun was made... I wasn't there.
Do you believe that after day four the days in Genesis were 24hr days?
If the days after day 4 were 24hr... where is the difference from day 3 to 4 in the text.

Do you not believe in the past, present or future?
Time is the unidirectional movement through the fourth dimension.

Then how can you say the creation days are 24 hrs? You are assuming an awful lot.

Because the rotation of the Earth hasn't changed since Creation... unless you have evidence to the contrary.

 

[Milk-Drops]

As I did in my example.

Never said it was.

The rotation of the Earth has not changed to my knowledge.

What is your basis for that?



Because the rotation of the Earth hasn't changed since Creation... unless you have evidence to the contrary.

Got it, you don't understand the basis of what you are talking about and now are playing word games.

Look, getting hung up on the days having to be 24 hours is missing the forest for the trees.

 

[dwb001]

Got it, you don't understand the basis of what you are talking about and now are playing word games.

Look, getting hung up on the days having to be 24 hours is missing the forest for the trees.

I am not getting hung up on anything.
But you are not proving that time is a measurement alone.
Time is different from the perception of time.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I am not getting hung up on anything.
But you are not proving that time is a measurement alone.
Time is different from the perception of time.

Then define what it is. Give us the physical traits of time.

 

[dwb001]

Then define what it is. Give us the physical traits of time.

Physical traits of a non-physical thing.
Really.
As I defined it before...
Unidirectional passage through the fourth dimension.

Now you define what it is.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Physical traits of a non-physical thing.
Really.
As I defined it before...
Unidirectional passage through the fourth dimension.

Now you define what it is.

A measurement of chronological events. Now let's get to what started this whole conversation. We have events listed in 7 day increments of creation.

Your position is that the 7 days are 24 hr periods. Other posters pointed out that the direct translation isn't equivalent to days as we see them.

All I'm saying is that makes sense since the very thing we use to measure the passage of time in days, the sun, dis not exist until the 4th day. So it could be a 24hr dY, a few seconds, an infinite amount of time. It doesn't matter. The age of the Earth does not matter for the message of Jesus Christ to mean something.

 

[dwb001]

A measurement of chronological events. Now let's get to what started this whole conversation. We have events listed in 7 day increments of creation.

Your position is that the 7 days are 24 hr periods. Other posters pointed out that the direct translation isn't equivalent to days as we see them.

All I'm saying is that makes sense since the very thing we use to measure the passage of time in days, the sun, dis not exist until the 4th day. So it could be a 24hr dY, a few seconds, an infinite amount of time. It doesn't matter. The age of the Earth does not matter for the message of Jesus Christ to mean something.

I disagree with the age of the Earth being irrelevant.
If the Bible starts with a lie... why should we believe any of it?

 

[Milk-Drops]

I disagree with the age of the Earth being irrelevant.
If the Bible starts with a lie... why should we believe any of it?

What's the lie? Where in the Bible does it say a day is 24 hrs?

 

[dwb001]

What's the lie? Where in the Bible does it say a day is 24 hrs?

When did I say that?
Wow you don't follow the conversation do you.

If the Earth is very old when the Bible says creation took 6 days... then why believe anything?

 

[Milk-Drops]

When did I say that?
Wow you don't follow the conversation do you.

If the Earth is very old when the Bible says creation took 6 days... then why believe anything?

Why does 6 literal days, that the Bible doesn't say we're 24 hrs matter? I'm seriously asking you this, can you please answer genuinely?

 

[dwb001]

Why does 6 literal days, that the Bible doesn't say we're 24 hrs matter? I'm seriously asking you this, can you please answer genuinely?

Why won't you just listen.
If the first verses of the Bible are a lie... why believe anything?
That is one of the reasons it matters.

Like if evolution is part of God's plan... then Jesus is not needed.
If evolution is part of God's plan... then death did not come through Adam... then Jesus didn't bring life.
So and old earth model is the antithesis of the Christian faith.

 

[jasonc]

Yes, a second is slower on Mars. A second is a measure of a pendulum traveling and reseting along a cubit. On Mars the pendulum would take longer to reset. That is how time is measured. Its an arbitrary measurement.

No the time dilation is taken into the data.

I think you misunderstand. Time is. Measurement. We can set any specific man made numbers in. The clicks on satalit3s are measuring earth time, but not relative time. The biggest contention is that if we take the order of creation literally, we would not be able to accurately measure time until the sun, earth rotation, and solar system were in place.


No, relativity is taken into account when using time in space.

To them probably hours. To us it's relative based on where they are in orbit.

Nasa uses solar hours not lunar or earth time .