Theology without the bible? ....

[JohnDB]

2Timothy 3 comes to mind.
The whole chapter.
Especially vs 16.
Now Paul at this point is talking about the Old Testament...he really didn't think that he was writing over a third of the New Testament.

As scripture is obviously written by men it really is a wonder how ordinary men were inspired by God.

And it's an important part of why scripture is scripture. I'd even go so far as to say that certain hymns that are known today are "God Breathed". Amazing Grace is one of those.

It has to do with holy truth and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Walpole]

PREFACE: I am a 5 point Calvinist (Reformed Baptist specifically) that holds to the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed, to the inerrancy of Scripture, and to the literal truth of the miracles of Christ and those recorded in the Bible.

Help me understand the logic of this statement. Why then would you claim to profess the creed of a Church with which you do not belong?

Many of the decrees and canons declared at the Council of Nicea (which composed the Nicene Creed) are incompatible with Calvinism. You statement would be like a Catholic professing the creed of Mormonism.

Please explain.

 

[Walpole]

On another forum site there's a Christian who holds a lot of respect for theology and writes articles for that site's responses. But he shows more and more on every article and comment that he doesn't count the bible as the foundation of a Christian's faith.

I bring up this topic because my responses to this person have been blunt and harsh. A growing attitude I don't want to keep growing and have it become habitual adversarial like to those I don't agree with or don't understand. Therefore I ask for anyone willing to discuss what it means to be a commited Christian without the bible.

Here are some points I've gleaned from this person that might explain or strength his views that the bible is not literal or a foundation for a Christian.
-------------------------------
•He does not believe in miracles. To him God works in natural ways and that is enough. This position is part of his approach to coming to nonchristians and seem sane while bringing a theology to them. But it also means he doesn't think Jesus was reserected physically only spiritually. (Among other miracles recorded that are ignored or "not taken literally.")

•He holds the church as the interpretator of the bible instead of encouraging individual study of the bible. In that way individuals aren't prone to develop wrong interpretations and cherry pick verses to support their already formed views. In his view it's better to study theology, from the rich history, traditions and thinkers of the church; while privite study of the bible is dangerous to Christians.

•He holds the view that the bible is not trustworthy but has been mistranslated and edited throughout history. That the bible is not God's word, but that it is man's writtings not God's. One point he made I've heard here on cf.net. That the bible is not the word of God. However unlike the point made here that we should seek to hear God for ourselves and to pray and listen, this individual takes the view that the bible is not God's word as a point to trust church theologians and study church theologies.
--------------------------------
I don't know if you guys have met anyone like this, or hold some of the same views yourself. If you have and have some insight to Christians that disregard the bible, then I ask for your help. So that Christianity is not being divided and divisive among our brothers and sisters, instead of loving and welcoming to fellow Christians.

(In the defense of the person I'm referring to, he has a lot of well written articles with a lot of thoughtful theological understanding, along with the intent to deepen a Christian's faith, or to reach nonbelievers that don't believe in anything Christian).

It would be helpful to link to this person so we can read for ourselves his positions.

A couple of thoughts based on your characterization of this person...

1. There was no complete canon of what you call "the Bible" until several centuries after Christ.

2. The two core tenets of the Christian faith, that of the Trinity and the hypostatic union, took centuries to develop and were declared and defined apart from the Scriptures. (They were declared as dogmas at Church councils.)

3. Scripture itself calls the Church the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15).

4. If left to individual interpretation, there would be tens of millions of versions of the Christian faith. There has to be a final arbiter; an authority; a body or mechanism to declare authoritatively what is or is not the Christian faith.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

It would be helpful to link to this person so we can read for ourselves his positions.

I don't want this thread to become a jumping point to another person to argue with. I agree with JohnDB that for those like this guy it's better to have nothing to do with him instead of trying to debate with them to the truth. Hope for him, pray for him and leave it in God's hands. If you still want to see the conversation that I'm referring to for most of this thread, I can PM it to you. But after reading his posts let him be. He seems to be a kind man trying to reach nonbelievers. No point in debating with him.

A couple of thoughts based on your characterization of this person...

1. There was no complete canon of what you call "the Bible" until several centuries after Christ.

I don't know the history behind the bible and how it came to be, but I trust it because I trust God. When searching for God when I was younger I felt like He was pulling me to the bible as I read it. This goes beyond the history of how it's made and agreed on for which books are included, as well as beyond how it's been translated and it's origional languages. I trust the bible as an extension of trusting God. Learning more helps understand it better including the history translations and the languages it was written in, but the source of trust is in God holding it together, not in our methods and actions that have been part of the hustory of the texts in the bible.

2. The two core tenets of the Christian faith, that of the Trinity and the hypostatic union, took centuries to develop and were declared and defined apart from the Scriptures. (They were declared as dogmas at Church councils.)

I never really understood the trinity to the point of saying I agree with it or don't. The points that I seem to be clear on from the bible point to Jesus and God being one, because Jesus said so, as well as instances that show a distinction between Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. But in all practice matters if you have God you have Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well. The same is true if you have the Holy Spirit of gave Jesus. It's a package deal regardless if the Trinity is correct or not. Making the doctrine close enough to the truth that it would be indistinguishable from if they are three seperate persons. (At least for us anyways)

3. Scripture itself calls the Church the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15).

I thought the church was the people. Not the orginization, not the building. I stand by that thought.

4. If left to individual interpretation, there would be tens of millions of versions of the Christian faith. There has to be a final arbiter; an authority; a body or mechanism to declare authoritatively what is or is not the Christian faith.

I call that final arbiter to be the bible. To know if something is truely from the Holy Spirit, or a teaching is really from God I trust the bible to be the test. Does the teaching or the thought contradict what's in the bible? Then it's not from God. If it doesn't contradict what's in the bible, then it's possible that it's God leading that thought or that teaching, or it's possible that it's just our thoughts or our figurings, not God's.

In those instances God is the final arbiter. For all practical matters though the bible is the final arbiter that we can hold to.

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually the Bible is not our foundation, but does teach us that our foundation is faith in Christ. The Bible is a book full of letters the Prophets and Apostles wrote of that which was inspired of God given to write as a witness who have testified of God and His Son Christ Jesus and what they verbally taught. It holds from the beginning of Genesis unto the end of Revelation as God being Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Some call the B.I.B.L.E - Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth. It reads as an instruction manual of God's sovereignty of God in all power, mercy and grace. By not reading the Bible would be like going to school without any text books to study from.

Yes, we can know God by fellowshipping with Him, but yet miss the hidden mysteries He wants for us to search out and learn. There are many translations of the Bible and within our English many words that have been taken from the Hebrew, Latin and Greek can give different meanings, but yet it is the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things as we Spiritually discern that of what we read and what others teach us.

I would be leery of those who say we do not need to read the Bible as some theology is gained from a carnal mind of understanding.

 

[Boaz]

On another forum site there's a Christian who holds a lot of respect for theology and writes articles for that site's responses. But he shows more and more on every article and comment that he doesn't count the bible as the foundation of a Christian's faith.

I bring up this topic because my responses to this person have been blunt and harsh. A growing attitude I don't want to keep growing and have it become habitual adversarial like to those I don't agree with or don't understand. Therefore I ask for anyone willing to discuss what it means to be a commited Christian without the bible.

Here are some points I've gleaned from this person that might explain or strength his views that the bible is not literal or a foundation for a Christian.
-------------------------------
•He does not believe in miracles. To him God works in natural ways and that is enough. This position is part of his approach to coming to nonchristians and seem sane while bringing a theology to them. But it also means he doesn't think Jesus was reserected physically only spiritually. (Among other miracles recorded that are ignored or "not taken literally.")

•He holds the church as the interpretator of the bible instead of encouraging individual study of the bible. In that way individuals aren't prone to develop wrong interpretations and cherry pick verses to support their already formed views. In his view it's better to study theology, from the rich history, traditions and thinkers of the church; while privite study of the bible is dangerous to Christians.

•He holds the view that the bible is not trustworthy but has been mistranslated and edited throughout history. That the bible is not God's word, but that it is man's writtings not God's. One point he made I've heard here on cf.net. That the bible is not the word of God. However unlike the point made here that we should seek to hear God for ourselves and to pray and listen, this individual takes the view that the bible is not God's word as a point to trust church theologians and study church theologies.
--------------------------------
I don't know if you guys have met anyone like this, or hold some of the same views yourself. If you have and have some insight to Christians that disregard the bible, then I ask for your help. So that Christianity is not being divided and divisive among our brothers and sisters, instead of loving and welcoming to fellow Christians.

(In the defense of the person I'm referring to, he has a lot of well written articles with a lot of thoughtful theological understanding, along with the intent to deepen a Christian's faith, or to reach nonbelievers that don't believe in anything Christian).

You can't be a Christian and not believe that the Bible is the word of God. If you don't believe this what you have is not Christianity but a religion, a "different gospel." One that in this case is borrowing from Christianity. That the Bible is the word of God is one of the basic tenants of Christianity. And if the Bible is not the infallible, inerrant word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, penned by men, it basically has no value. How would you ever know what things to believe and what wasn't true? The Bible is the very foundation of Christianity.

 

[Boaz]

Actually the Bible is not our foundation, but does teach us that our foundation is faith in Christ. The Bible is a book full of letters the Prophets and Apostles wrote of that which was inspired of God given to write as a witness who have testified of God and His Son Christ Jesus and what they verbally taught. It holds from the beginning of Genesis unto the end of Revelation as God being Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

Some call the B.I.B.L.E - Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth. It reads as an instruction manual of God's sovereignty of God in all power, mercy and grace. By not reading the Bible would be like going to school without any text books to study from.

Yes, we can know God by fellowshipping with Him, but yet miss the hidden mysteries He wants for us to search out and learn. There are many translations of the Bible and within our English many words that have been taken from the Hebrew, Latin and Greek can give different meanings, but yet it is the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things as we Spiritually discern that of what we read and what others teach us.

I would be leery of those who say we do not need to read the Bible as some theology is gained from a carnal mind of understanding.

The very bottom, bottom line of what the Bible is, since it comes FROM God, is God revealing Himself to some of His creatures ( created beings) ! That is something I find AMAZING!

 

[for_his_glory]

The very bottom, bottom line of what the Bible is, since it comes FROM God, is God revealing Himself to some of His creatures ( created beings) ! That is something I find AMAZING!

Actually revealing Himself to everyone who seek Him as they will find Him. The Bible being the inspired word of God penned by the Prophets and Disciples is so rich in history, culture and even poetic in some of the writings. As God is Alpha and Omega so is His word that will never turn back void to Him.

Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[Edward]

I would be leery of those who say we do not need to read the Bible as some theology is gained from a carnal mind of understanding.

Well...not really a carnal mind of understanding, but rather from the (Hearts?) mind of understanding. I'm pert darn sure that we can think two different ways, but most people do not realize it. Now we know from scripture that the carnal mind is enmity with God and can never understand...

But from what I understand, our heart is a greater "thinker" than our brain ever could be (Heartmath.org)...so we just need to be careful what we're saying of what because thinking is not a cut and dried process that only originates in the flesh mind!

 

[for_his_glory]

You can't be a Christian and not believe that the Bible is the word of God. If you don't believe this what you have is not Christianity but a religion, a "different gospel." One that in this case is borrowing from Christianity. That the Bible is the word of God is one of the basic tenants of Christianity. And if the Bible is not the infallible, inerrant word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, penned by men, it basically has no value. How would you ever know what things to believe and what wasn't true? The Bible is the very foundation of Christianity.

Jesus is the foundation who is the rock of our salvation. The Bible being the inspired word of God teaches us how to walk in love and obedience to God's commands. Not having the Bible, especially the NT letters of the Apostles would be like going to school without any books to study out of.

One is either of the world with a carnal theology of who Christ is, or they have risen with Christ and seek those things from above where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Colossians 3:1-4.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well...not really a carnal mind of understanding, but rather from the (Hearts?) mind of understanding. I'm pert darn sure that we can think two different ways, but most people do not realize it. Now we know from scripture that the carnal mind is enmity with God and can never understand...

But from what I understand, our heart is a greater "thinker" than our brain ever could be (Heartmath.org)...so we just need to be careful what we're saying of what because thinking is not a cut and dried process that only originates in the flesh mind!

There are only two kinds of knowledge and that is either carnal or Spiritual. The heart wants what the heart wants, but sometimes the heart will reject truth as Spiritual truth is not logical to the carnal mind. This is how man's theories begin as they think not of the Spiritual, but only that of the logical they can try to reason out.

We were all carnal at one time as our heart led us to logical thinking. When we became indwelled with the Holy Spirit our Spiritual heart was opened to all truths.

 

[jerry63935]

Actually the Bible is not our foundation

the Bible is a very much part of our foundation
John 5:39 King James Version (KJV)
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
1 Corinthians 3:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

but nothing can happen outside the word which is Christ

 

[Edward]

the Bible is a very much part of our foundation
John 5:39 King James Version (KJV)
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
1 Corinthians 3:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

but nothing can happen outside the word which is Christ

I agree. The Bible is very foundational to us as believers. There is, the written word, the spoken word, and the Living Word which is Jesus Himself.

I think most hear the spoken word first, then go to the written word to grow into a personal relationship with the Living Word. The Holy Spirit speaks to us very much when we read the written word, and even with a lifetime of study, no man can digest all of it.

I'm not sure if the written word is taken seriously enough by most believers, and so, they don't read it as much as they should...so growth is inhibited.

Read the word, pray, worship and fasting are the most powerful tools that we have as believers.

 

[for_his_glory]

the Bible is a very much part of our foundation
John 5:39 King James Version (KJV)
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
1 Corinthians 3:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

but nothing can happen outside the word which is Christ

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The foundation is Christ being that precious cornerstone as Peter knew who Jesus was as being the Christ, the Son of the living God while they stood on that rock. There were no NT scriptures to tell Him that just as it is by God's Spirit that we also recognize Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God.

It is the letters of the Apostles that were sent to the Church as they established the true Church of God as it is those letters we now call scripture that instructs us in God's righteousness through Christ in whom is our faith built upon.

 

[jerry63935]

The foundation is Christ being that precious cornerstone as Peter knew who Jesus was as being the Christ, the Son of the living God

yup and the word of God is part of that foundation john 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. leaving the word of God out is like making a concrete pad with out gravel
foundation
θεμελίῳ (themeliō)
Noun - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 2310: From a derivative of tithemi; something put down, i.e. A substruction. no body denies Christ the R

 

[jerry63935]

yup and the word of God is part of that foundation john 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. leaving the word of God out is like making a concrete pad with out gravel
foundation
θεμελίῳ (themeliō)
Noun - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 2310: From a derivative of tithemi; something put down, i.e. A substruction. no body denies Christ the R

the Rock is the foundation but the word "scripture " is part of the material

 

[for_his_glory]

yup and the word of God is part of that foundation john 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. leaving the word of God out is like making a concrete pad with out gravel
foundation
θεμελίῳ (themeliō)
Noun - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 2310: From a derivative of tithemi; something put down, i.e. A substruction. no body denies Christ the R

Yes the word of God in the beginning was the spoken word of God and the light unto the nations has always been Jesus who is our foundation that the scriptures being the inspired written word of God teach us about. Many worship the Bible more than they worship God as they put it on a pedestal and idolize it.

Don't get me wrong here as we need to read and study the Bible in order to know better who God and Jesus are in all their righteousness.

 

[jerry63935]

Many worship the Bible more than they worship God as they put it on a pedestal and idolize it.

i have yet to meet any if anything many only know what gma gpa mom/dad know

 

[for_his_glory]

i have yet to meet any if anything many only know what gma gpa mom/dad know

Not sure what you are saying, can you explain it better?

 

[OzSpen]

Not sure if I can help. First of all, I would never say the Bible isn't the foundation of Christianity. But I'm not personally convinced it is the 100% distortion-free word of God. I can't help but think man has tampered with it a bit. Just a bit. As with most things, finding the truth takes some work.

Kevin,

Would you please help me to understand which criteria you use to help you determine distortions in the Scriptures?

Could you give some examples from the word of God of what you consider are distortions?

Are you using the meaning of 'distortion' according to a dictionary such as the Oxford Dictionary: 'The action of giving a misleading account or impression' (Lexico 2019. s.v. distortion)?

Oz