There is no God

[Novum]

Re: see

Predictable.

Funny how all those buildings ended up in your town eh?

Please, I would ask you to NEVER assume any of those buildings in your town got there by the intelligent design of a builder. You will need proof of such things first.

We can all play the ole "can't make me believe" game friend. And that is what is immature.

You appear to be unable or unwilling to read my previous post where I addressed this exact issue; instead, you harp on this point as if I hadn't responded at all. That, I maintain, is intellectual dishonesty.

 

[mutzrein]

Re: see

First of all I don't blame anyone for being an atheist. In fact it is kind of refreshing talking to someone who does not think themselves self righteousness enough to want to exclude others from heaven just because their doctrine's disagree. But unfortunately Christendom is full of them.

Fair enough.

Secondly God doesn't expect anything from them because He has not chosen them to receive eternal life.

Thirdly, since He has not chosen them, and they have not received eternal life, when they die, why would they be sent to hell? If they have not received eternal life, they perish. Their reward is on this earth.

So, why would some not be meant to understand?

Why am I my father's son and why are you yours? Inasmuch as my parents have conceived and brought me into this world without my choice in the matter, why should that concern you. Or why should it concern me that you have been given life by your parents. And why should it concern me that your abilities, your gifts, your trust, your faith in your parents is something that I don’t have. They are not my parents.

So it is with God. He has chosen some to be his children and to these He has given (eternal) life. Surely it is the prerogative of the giver to bestow a gift to whomever he chooses. So, if the gift in this case is life, therefore knowledge of my relationship to God as his son is also a gift. This is faith. An implicit reliance on the one who has given me life.

But . . . being the child of one parent now does not necessarily exclude you from being adopted by another. If God so chooses, he may give you this gift, and then you will understand.

I...I...I'm shocked. Really. :o

First, you are arguing for predestination - that some people, through no fault of their own, are destined to not receive God's word.
[quote:9931d]Yes that is right

I believe that a large number of Christians would disagree with you on that point,

And they do but no matter

but that's another discussion entirely. I, however, cannot fathom a god who would be so cruel as to not only ignore, but to simply deny a reward to the vast majority of his creation.

What reward? This is not a reward, it is a gift.

Even with our human standards of morality and justice, that should still strike us as being very, very wrong.

So would I if I was arguing on the basis of it being a reward.

Second, you appear to be contradicting yourself - or, perhaps, your god is. You said:

"In fact it is kind of refreshing talking to someone who does not think themselves self righteousness enough to want to exclude others from heaven just because their doctrine's disagree."

Most (religious) people on this forum who disagree with another’s theology (eg. the Trinity doctrine) want to exclude those who do not believe it, from the gift of life that God gives. But it is not their gift to give. It is God’s and since He is the giver, who are they to want to deny it. That is what makes them self-righteous.

It seems like your god falls soundly into the category you have defined of people who are too self-righteous, as he denies his creation a reward simply because their doctrines disagreed with his.

As I said, what God gives is a gift. It is not a reward.

It is very, very, very easy for us, in our limited human viewpoints, to conceive of a system that would be far more fair and just - a system in which everyone would at least be presented with the offer, if not the guarantee, of eternal life. That we, in our limited state, can appear to be more just than a god is very telling to me.

So what is unjust about someone giving gifts to their kids? Are you jealous?

[/quote:9931d]

 

[Novum]

Re: see

First of all, why does it matter that it is a gift and not a reward? Specifically...

So what is unjust about someone giving gifts to their kids? Are you jealous?

Not quite the right analogy. Imagine a parent who had six billion kids. He decides, before some of them are born, that he will not give most of them a (very large) gift.

To me, that stinks of gross negligence and unjustness.

 

[mutzrein]

Re: see

First of all, why does it matter that it is a gift and not a reward? Specifically...

So what is unjust about someone giving gifts to their kids? Are you jealous?

Not quite the right analogy. Imagine a parent who had six billion kids. He decides, before some of them are born, that he will not give most of them a (very large) gift.

To me, that stinks of gross negligence and unjustness.

Wrong assumption. God doesn't have six billion kids or whatever figure you want to put on the number mankind.

Only those who are born of God are his kids.

 

[Novum]

Re: see

Wrong assumption. God doesn't have six billion kids or whatever figure you want to put on the number mankind.

Only those who are born of God are his kids.

So some people were not born of, or created by god? Why are some people chosen over others?

 

[Klee shay]

Can I get an athiest to clear some definitions up or me?

Until reading this thread I didn't realise there were different forms of athiest other than those who do not believe God exists. I'll put forward the definitions I gathered from this discussion:

1. Agnostic Atheist - chooses not to believe in God even though they believe he is real.

2. Hardline Atheist - chooses not to believe in God because they believe he doesn't exist.

I got a little confused on these definitions so I was hoping an athiest could clarify for me. Thanks.

 

[Novum]

1. Agnostic Atheist - chooses not to believe in God even though they believe he is real.

No, not at all. Agnostic Atheists, also known as Weak Atheists, lack a belief in god. They have examined the evidence and weighed both sides of the debate and come to the decision to lack such a belief.

Note that this is not the same as saying "god does not exist". Agnostic atheists remain open to the possibility that god exists and will gladly accept any forthcoming evidence, re-evaluating their position if necessary.

2. Hardline Atheist - chooses not to believe in God because they believe he doesn't exist.

More or less, yes. Though it's called Strong Atheism, not "Hardline".

Strong Atheists claim that god does not exist. Period. This is a rather difficult position to defend; as such, there are very few atheists who actually hold this position. The vast majority are Weak/Agnostic Atheists.

Edit: There are other kinds as well; these two are not representative of all atheists. One I've heard of is Apathetic Atheist - basically equalling something along the lines of "I don't know, and I don't care."

There's also Ignosticism, which states that the question of whether or not any deities exist is inherently meaningless and has no relevance to our lives. To the ignosticist, "Does god exist?" has about as much worth (and makes about as much sense) as "What color is Saturday?"

You can read more on atheism and its various types in this excellent Wikipedia article.

 

[mutzrein]

Re: see

Wrong assumption. God doesn't have six billion kids or whatever figure you want to put on the number mankind.

Only those who are born of God are his kids.

So some people were not born of, or created by god? Why are some people chosen over others?

Seems to me like you are trying to mix two elements so I'm sorry if I didn't explain myself properly.

All of mankind has a physical birth. This is not what I mean by being 'born of God'. This is what is said to be being 'born of the flesh.' This is the birthright given to all of mankind. When you die, your flesh and all that you are physically perishes.

However, for those who are born of God - in other words those who receive the gift of life through the Spirit, have the birthright of the Spirit, which is (eternal) life. This is what is said to be being 'born of the Spirit'.

And just as we have no choice in terms of our physical birth, so it is with our spiritual birth.

And I will add another thing here. Those who have received this gift have responsibility for what they do with it. It is these who are judged - some to eternal reward in heaven and some to eternal punishment. Those who receive the gift and trample on it are in a far worse state than those who never received it.

 

[Novum]

Re: see

However, for those who are born of God - in other words those who receive the gift of life through the Spirit, have the birthright of the Spirit, which is (eternal) life. This is what is said to be being 'born of the Spirit'.

And just as we have no choice in terms of our physical birth, so it is with our spiritual birth.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think you answered my question(s).

1. Why are some people chosen over others?

2. How is that fair or just?

 

[mutzrein]

Re: see

However, for those who are born of God - in other words those who receive the gift of life through the Spirit, have the birthright of the Spirit, which is (eternal) life. This is what is said to be being 'born of the Spirit'.

And just as we have no choice in terms of our physical birth, so it is with our spiritual birth.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think you answered my question(s).

1. Why are some people chosen over others?

2. How is that fair or just?

What does it have to do with me or you if someone else was born of different parents. Nothing.
Can we do anything about it? No.
So what do we do? Get on with what we have got and make the best of it.

It sounds to me as though you have received a few good gifts. Intellect, security, humor, good self esteem. Do you think it is fair that others have received less? Do you think it is unfair that others have received more?

It is neither fair nor unfair. It is neither just nor unjust. It is life.

 

[Klee shay]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Novum. Being a Christian and all I don't know much about the other side of the fence so to speak. Although I must confess to a time I actually doubted God because of the events which he allowed into my life.

I was certain there was a God (raised in a Christian home) but he only existed to extract as much pain and suffering from his human "toys" as possible. Funny to think about how far I've come since those times.

No, not at all. Agnostic Atheists, also known as Weak Atheists, lack a belief in god. They have examined the evidence and weighed both sides of the debate and come to the decision to lack such a belief.

In a world full of suffering I can see why this happens. Been there done that. It seems to me then that at least Agnositc Atheists (or any Atheist really) are only reienforced in their "non-belief" when they fail to see God in other Christians' harsh words or actions.

In your experience have you ever known an athiest turned Christian?

 

[Novum]

Re: see

What does it have to do with me or you if someone else was born of different parents. Nothing.
Can we do anything about it? No.
So what do we do? Get on with what we have got and make the best of it.

It sounds to me as though you have received a few good gifts. Intellect, security, humor, good self esteem. Do you think it is fair that others have received less? Do you think it is unfair that others have received more?

It is neither fair nor unfair. It is neither just nor unjust. It is life.

Even those who may have received less of those "gifts" may, to an extent, work hard to make up the difference. People really can "learn" to dish out and receive humor better. People really can "learn" to have better self esteem. It does happen.

But that's not the case with this gift. Some are given it at birth and some aren't. And, if I am understanding you, it is not possible to work hard to make up the difference.

But that's only half the problem. With humor or self-esteem or any of the others, having more of them will probably have some kind of noticeable effect on your life. With god's gift of salvation, in which an eternal life in heaven is the reward, there is arguably an infinite positive effect on one's life.

So yes - it might be "fair" that there is nothing we can do about humor and self-esteem, largely because people can do their best to work around it. But I do not believe it is "fair" that there is nothing we can do about your god's gift, especially considering there is an infinite discrepancy between those who receive it and those who do not.

 

[Novum]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Novum. Being a Christian and all I don't know much about the other side of the fence so to speak. Although I must confess to a time I actually doubted God because of the events which he allowed into my life.

I was certain there was a God (raised in a Christian home) but he only existed to extract as much pain and suffering from his human "toys" as possible. Funny to think about how far I've come since those times.

Certainly. Contrary to popular opinion, most atheists don't "hate" religion or god. If your religion works for you, then that's fine by me.

In a world full of suffering I can see why this happens. Been there done that. It seems to me then that at least Agnositc Atheists (or any Atheist really) are only reienforced in their "non-belief" when they fail to see God in other Christians' harsh words or actions.

I suppose that's true, for some atheists. Others have only chosen atheism after long, hard, dedicated study of the bible and likely know the bible better than most Christians do. Some just aren't fazed by the actions of Christians, some are.

Perhaps you've heard this joke prayer: "Dear god. Please protect me from your followers. Amen." ;)

In your experience have you ever known an athiest turned Christian?

Technically, everyone is born atheist and without a belief in god; not developing such until at least 4-5 years of age (if not later). But that's probably not what you meant. ;)

In real life, I'm not sure I know anyone who has become Christian after a period of atheism. That's not to say that none of my friends or acquaintances have, just that I am not aware of any who have. As you know, religion is one of the Big Three Topics you're not "supposed" to talk about publicly (the other being politics and sex).

On these boards, I've certainly encountered at least one other person who said he was an atheist turned Christian; you would make at least two (I'm sure there are more). I don't think it's all that uncommon - people can and will make important life decisions both to convert and deconvert when it best suits them.

 

[Klee shay]

Thanks for your feedback Novum. No, I haven't heard that particular prayer but a friend of mine (non professed Christian nor professed athiest) would often joke with her husband as they drove past church on a Sunday, "that's where all the good people are."

Being a Christian and all, I still found it funny, LOL. I think its fair to say nearly every group in society gets the mickey taken out of their core beliefs at some point.

Can I ask one more personal question about your understanding of God though? Have you ever felt him pulling you back. I don't mean through other people directly or peer pressure to believe, but have you ever felt the unknown presence which tempts you to take another chance on understanding God a little better?

I know I heard him heaps when I took a break from believing. I think even in our best attempts at non-belief, he finds a way to catch our attention. : Or at least that's been my experience.

 

[Novum]

Can I ask one more personal question about your understanding of God though? Have you ever felt him pulling you back. I don't mean through other people directly or peer pressure to believe, but have you ever felt the unknown presence which tempts you to take another chance on understanding God a little better?

I was actually raised Jewish. I attended six whole years of hebrew school at my local temple and was Bar Mitzvah-ed when I was 13. Yet throughout it all, I do not think I ever sincerely believed there was a god. I never enjoyed the dozens and dozens of services, and I don't really think I was ever doing anything more than going through the motions. Even at that relatively young age, I'm fairly sure that I didn't believe in what I was doing.

So no, I don't believe I have ever felt any kind of divine influence on me. Even in my darkest hours - my younger brother has been through a lot and made a lot of poor choices - it was always the love of my family and friends that kept me going.

I know I heard him heaps when I took a break from believing. I think even in our best attempts at non-belief, he finds a way to catch our attention. : Or at least that's been my experience.

I guess I missed out on the whole god thing. ;) I'm glad that things have been working for you, though!

 

[Klee shay]

Family and friends are great aren't they! What would we do without them. :D

I think what you described in your childhood was an apathy towards God rather than developing a belief. My husband was raised in a Catholic family and he has the same apathy towards God as well. That's not an attack on Catholicism BTW, but its such a ritualistic based form of developing a relationship with God that for some who "just don't get it" as you said; they wax cold and some never want to ever "get it" again. For other Catholics its never really a problem. I know for my husband it was though.

After many years of apathy my husband is just starting to confront God mono el mono now. It's strange and weird and takes him out of his element of trusting his own judgement...but he's trying and really that's all he can do. I think its utterly shocked him though, how God can deliver a reply when he can't even talk to you face to face.

I hope he deepens his relationship with God further, but really, that's his choice. Just as its your choice what you believe. Apathy for God though is not really a relationship with him. Away from the ritual of God you need to ask the Big Guy who he is; what is his relevance to your life and why should you believe in him? Asking him directly instead of trying to "get him" on your own will bring better results.

But once again, it has to be your choice and no-one else's - otherwise it's just another forced ritual you have to endure for the sake of another's beliefs. Not good.

 

[mutzrein]

Novum

Why do think it is unfair that other people could be getting something you don't even believe in or want? :-?

Is there a hint of jealousy perhaps? But that would not be logical either? Unless of course there was a strange niggle about gentiles coming to God ahead of jews. Nah couldn't be. Well they are, but of course it is all totally irrelevant to you since you don't believe in the God of Abraham.

 

[Novum]

Why do think it is unfair that other people could be getting something you don't even believe in or want? :-?

My beliefs are irrelevant. If, however, some people are being favored over others, and if eternal salvation/punishment is on the line, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about an apparent lack of justice and fairness.

 

[Packrat]

Agnostic atheists remain open to the possibility that god exists and will gladly accept any forthcoming evidence, re-evaluating their position if necessary.

To paraphrase someone, no evidence or proof is enough for the scientist. You can not go about the concern of the existence of God with a complete scientific mind and expect the possibility of changing your beliefs in any future - whether near or far (or even to hold beliefs one way or the other). You either believe or you don't.

See, I have examined the evidence for a god or the God and I have come to a different conclusion - one that God speaks through the planets and the stars to show us that something cannot come from nothing. The universe is his testimony for he is not obligated to speak to us in English, Latin, or Hebrew. I believe that something inanimate needs a Creator as much as life itself. And the way I arrived at this conclusion was not sheer science (of which we are found lacking currently), but philosophy. Philosophy appeals to logic, but strict science states that even the blatantly unreasonable is possible (if my memory proves correct).

Ps. by sheer science I mean empirical science

Pps. sorry for any logic errors in my post or typos. I must be going.

 

[Novum]

To paraphrase someone, no evidence or proof is enough for the scientist. You can not go about the concern of the existence of God with a complete scientific mind and expect the possibility of changing your beliefs in any future - whether near or far (or even to hold beliefs one way or the other). You either believe or you don't.

Fair enough. Some believe science and faith to be incompatible, I can respect your worldview.

See, I have examined the evidence for a god or the God and I have come to a different conclusion - one that God speaks through the planets and the stars to show us that something cannot come from nothing.

Wha...? You just said above that no evidence is "enough" for a "scientist". What evidence are you seeing that scientists aren't?

The universe is his testimony for he is not obligated to speak to us in English, Latin, or Hebrew. I believe that something inanimate needs a Creator as much as life itself. And the way I arrived at this conclusion was not sheer science (of which we are found lacking currently), but philosophy. Philosophy appeals to logic, but strict science states that even the blatantly unreasonable is possible (if my memory proves correct).

...and now you're back to saying science isn't good enough.

Well, I'm thoroughly confused about your position now. It seems to me you changed your position twice within the same post. Perhaps you could describe some of the evidence you believe you have seen, along with whether or not you find it to be scientific evidence?