These kinds of Christians are candidates for deception by Derek Prince

[Tenchi]

Yes we are to use our minds. But that is not the same thing as faith. Faith is much more than just intellectual assent. Faith comes from HEARING. Rom 10 .17 And what are we to hear? The spoken word from our Lord. The Greek there is Rhema which means a spoken as opposed to a written word.

I agree that "mind" is not identical in meaning to "faith." But can faith exist apart from a mind? I don't think so.

Hearing is a necessary part of the development and exercise of faith, but it isn't hearing itself that is vital, right? It is the hearing of the Gospel, and God's truth generally, that leads, not just to mere intellectual belief (which is a kind of faith, I think) but to saving faith (which the apostle James wrote of in the second chapter of his letter) in Christ. Regardless, without a mind - particularly of the human sort, fashioned in the imago dei - such hearing is not possible.

I would also point out, too, that unregenerate people exercise faith in all sorts of things all the time. In fact, its impossible to navigate reality without doing so. The lost sinner exercises faith in his dentist, his barber, his doctor, fellow drivers on the road, the chef at his favorite restaurant, and so on. And they do so pretty much after the manner Paul described of his own faith journey:

2 Timothy 1:12 (NASB)
12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

For Paul, the route to faith was: knowledge (of the Gospel)-belief (I am convinced)-action (I have entrusted to Him). This is not a path to faith that is unique to Christianity. Unregenerate people come to believe all manner of things through the very same line.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree. Mostly. Like you, I think gold dust or feathers, or a "Holy Spirit fog" descending from above, are a lot of silliness. But just like no one but Moses had his particular burning bush experience with God, no one but you will have exactly the sort of experience with God that you are having. If I want to show from Scripture that feathers, dust and fog are a lot of spiritual bunk, I wouldn't do it from a particular experience of God that so-and-so had in the record of the Bible, but by a general scriptural overview of the way in which God "showed up" and by comparison to what Scripture says is the normal experience of the Spirit that believers may have. In any case, it's a sad day when believers are cheering over feathers falling on them, thinking God has shown Himself. Yikes. This is a pretty...scrawny, pathetic shadow of the glory of the Lord in the OT knocking down those in the temple and forcing them to flee, isn't it?

The burning bush was to get his attention. He was then commissioned with a difficult task. I’ve never heard of any who saw gold dust or feathers commissioned to go out and help others. That’s the comparison. What came out of the encounter?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Faith is not an intellectual exercise, it is spiritual knowledge or belief. Charismatics are closer to spiritual truth than intellectuals.

The only man whose faith was praised by Jesus had an intellectual faith based on reason. Jesus was amazed at his intellectual faith.

 

[D-D-W]

The only man whose faith was praised by Jesus had an intellectual faith based on reason. Jesus was amazed at his intellectual faith.

Be careful. As Dr. Prince taught, do not add to the scriptures. It never said he had an intellectual faith. Even if it seems like it to us, unless scripture actually says it, it may not be so.

 

[Edward]

Does that include Derek Prince? Or is he exempt from his own rule, here?

Haha, good question! I only discovered Derek Prince online videos maybe a year ago? And I like his teachings and so far, I can't recall Derek saying anything that I disagreed with.

Chuck Missler was like that, always seemed to be on the money. But one day I remember chuck did say something that I had interpreted differently. I think he was wrong. It was a minor point but it does show that, no one has all the answers. Even the true Prophets of the Bible the judgements they laid down did not always come true.
There's a simple answer for that, God always said, repent or I will destroy you and many times they did repent, so God relented on the judgement. But it doesn't make the prophet a false prophet.

No one gets all the answers. Even after the resurection the indivisual disciples got fragmented information. They all had to get together and compare notes! Lol. Nevertheless, I do know of one man who does know it all, and His name is Jesus.

 

[Tenchi]

If faith was an exercise of the intellect then the most intelligent would be the most involved believers.

Are you speaking of just believers, here? And what do you mean by "most involved"?

I believe that we are three-partite beings: body, mind, and spirit. Everyone has a living body and an active mind but the spirit is dead unless one believes. 1 Corinthians 2:13, "And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual."

Right. I agree. But the Spirit teaches our minds, which is the only thing within us capable of being taught. Our spiritual life is in a Person, the Holy Spirit, who dwells within us.

Romans 8:9-11 (NASB)
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Titus 3:5 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

John 14:16-17 (NASB)
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

1 John 4:13 (NASB)
13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

In him we possess spiritual life; we don't possess such life as a new element of our intrinsic humanness. If the Spirit were to ever leave me, my spiritual life would depart as well, since the Spirit is my life spiritually. It is he who illuminates my mind to divine truth, opening my mind to it by his power.

We are all of us eternal souls, saved or not. And those souls go on, after the decease of the body, either to paradise or hell (Luke 16:19-31). If one's soul is alive unto God through Jesus Christ (Romans 6:11; Colossians 3:4), if it is connected to the life of the Spirit by his coming to dwell within, spiritual realities inaccessible to the lost person open to one's mind. But this is all the work of the Spirit upon my renewed mind, not to some new, special spiritual aspect of who I am that is distinct from the Spirit. It is because this is so that it has been impossible for theologians to make a clear, biblical separation between soul and spirit. Many have tried and I have read some of those attempts, none of them offering anything like a clean, precise demarcation between the two. My "spirit" is, in my view, my soul "made alive" to the things of God by the indwelling Holy Spirit. If I have a spirit distinct from my soul, it is ultimately the Holy Spirit within me. My view may change, however.

 

[Edward]

If faith was an exercise of the intellect then the most intelligent would be the most involved believers. I am in the top 1% of intelligence -- a member of Mensa (2%) and (Intertel 1%) -- and was an atheist for the first 34 years of my life. Additionally, universities would be filled with believers, which obviously is not the case.

I believe that we are three-partite beings: body, mind, and spirit. Everyone has a living body and an active mind but the spirit is dead unless one believes. 1 Corinthians 2:13, "And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual."

Mensa? Wow Brother. That's significant. I have an iq of 136 and I used to think I was smart. After walking with the Lord for a few years, I learned that I am not smart, it was all Him. Lol. It almost seems like most of humanity (including myself!) are remedial, slow learners.

All those business deals for all those years, gone. That wasn't me at all, that was just the Lord providing for my family. No wonder I got the big head, I was making a lot of money for awhile. We were just blessed because I was trying to do it the right way.

God must love Idiots, he made so many of us!
(there has to a purpose behind that)

 

[Edward]

That's the thing, believing faith is not an exercise of the intellect. One must set the intellect aside and operate from a different spot inside yourself than you usually do, your intellect.
Lean not to your understanding. become as a little child. What does that mean? It means, I don't have to understand it Daddy because I trust you. Kids don't ask for explainations. Are we there yet? and then a choice within you is made to just trust the Lord. Abraham did and Jesus was like, Well Done, Abraham! He didn't know where they was going. Abraham's like, Honey pack up the kids we're hittin the road...
Where to?
I don't know, just pack it all up...Lol! Can you hear that?!

I suppose that''s why they say, Faith is spekked R-i-s-k. Because you will have to make decisions. But you want to make them from trust rather than understanding. When something comes up, and you quickly choose to trust in God (no matter what your eyes are telling you) and I guarentee you that the Lord will come through for you.
He responds to Faith. Trust. You are trying to trust the Lord, and you think he might not respond?! That's what He does! It's in His job description so to speak. Those moments in life where...I trusted the Lord in various situations, and He never once let me down. He is, true to His word. Last minute but never late. That's my Lord.

But your intellect may be telling you that you are stupid. So it's not the easiest thing to do at times, but if you learn to choose from your heart or spirit and not your intellect and you get accustomed to it like anything else and then it's easier to go to Faith and the word of God in tense situations rather than your intellect. Who operates from their intellect anymore? It wont work that way, scripture says so.

Essentially, giving something to God and say I don't know what you are doing God, but I put it in your hands in trust and faith...
AT that point, isn't the ball in the Lord's court?

He never misses Brothers & Sisters.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Be careful. As Dr. Prince taught, do not add to the scriptures. It never said he had an intellectual faith. Even if it seems like it to us, unless scripture actually says it, it may not be so.

Scripture does say so. The man didn’t say he had a spiritual experience so he believes. He didn’t say his heart was touched and because he felt loved he believed. He said it was totally reasonable to believe. Faith based on reason is on the most solid of all grounds.

When John’s disciples asked Jesus if he were the Christ, Jesus answered with rational evidence for them to THINK about.

 

[Edward]

Faith based on reason is on the most solid of all grounds.

If the mind is thinking in accord with your spirit. Not the easiest task to accomplish.

 

[Tenchi]

That's the thing, believing faith is not an exercise of the intellect. One must set the intellect aside and operate from a different spot inside yourself than you usually do, your intellect.

This may be true for you, but it wasn't for me, or for many others I know. And it still isn't. I walk by faith because of the facts concerning God, reality and myself revealed to me in the Bible. My faith isn't blind, as so many seem to think Christian faith must be, but rests upon the knowledge of the historical Jesus, the multiple eyewitness testimonies to his life and teachings, and the fact of his resurrection from the dead. I believe there is a God because of the testimony of Creation to His existence, the witness of my own conscience to a transcendent Moral Law Giver, and the faculty of reason that leads me inevitably to conclude that God exists. I believe the Bible is the true revelation of God to the World because of its fulfilled prophecies, thematic unity despite being written over 1500 years, on three different continents, in three different languages, by people from across a wide spectrum of culture and experience, because of the Bible's historicity, its literary quality, and its profound and enduring effect upon individuals and nations. And so on. My faith in Christ and allegiance to the Christian religion is not resting in mid-air on nothing, but stands firmly upon a mountain of supporting data, apprehended through my God-given intellect.

Lean not to your understanding. become as a little child.

But this does not mean people ought to become childish. We are to be as children in the wholehearted trust we place in our heavenly Father, just as children do naturally in their human parents; but we are not to descend into the foolishness of children, into their shortsightedness, and lack of self-control, and ignorance.

What does that mean? It means, I don't have to understand it Daddy because I trust you. Kids don't ask for explainations. Are we there yet? and then a choice within you is made to just trust the Lord. Abraham did and Jesus was like, Well Done, Abraham! He didn't know where they was going.

But Abraham knew in whom he was trusting. He was not following the lead of a stranger, acting in ignorance in trusting the word of the Lord to him. Abraham could trust God as he did because he had good reason to do so.

I suppose that''s why they say, Faith is spekked R-i-s-k.

There is no real risk in following the will of the sovereign God of the Universe. But this is most evident to those who best know God by personal experience and the revelation of Him in Scripture.

But you want to make them from trust rather than understanding. When something comes up, and you quickly choose to trust in God (no matter what your eyes are telling you) and I guarentee you that the Lord will come through for you.

Brother, this isn't the way any believer has to walk with God. Always in Scripture, God reasons with His people, offering them evidence and argument in support of His commands to them. He shows them He can be trusted and then He asks His people to step out beyond what they know into the extraordinary will of Him they love and trust.

Consider, for example, the question Moses asked God when God tasked him with confronting Pharaoh. "They won't believe me," Moses said, "What proof can I give them that I'm from you?" God responded, not by saying, "They'll just have to trust you," but made Moses' staff capable of transforming into a snake (Exodus 4:1-9). But God was so keen to offer persuasive reason for Pharaoh to believe God had sent Moses to him, that God bestowed two other even more miraculous signs upon Moses: The leprous hand and water from the Nile turned to blood. Why? If God is determined that we should all just trust Him blindly, why go to these lengths with Moses?

Does God approach us all and say, in a total vacuum of reason to do so, "Trust in my Son"? No, instead, God sent His Son to live among men for thirty-three years, publicly teaching and performing many miracles, making disciples, finally dying in atonement for the sin of all mankind, but then rising from the dead three days later. And then, God ensures we have the record of these events, preserved over two millenia, upon which to base our faith in Jesus Christ the Savior. In light of these things, why do we resist the idea that faith can rest upon facts and reason?

Yes, God sometimes calls His people to step out beyond natural human reason, as He did in the instance of the taking of Jericho, or in the instance of the crossing of the Red Sea, or in the instance of the feeding of the five thousand. But they are expected to do so because they know God, and in knowing Him, have come to trust Him. This is what Paul explained to Timothy:

2 Timothy 1:12 (NASB)
12 ...for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

I know - I am convinced - I have entrusted. Paul's faith didn't rest on nothing; his faith wasn't blind or anti-intellect. Ours shouldn't be, either.

But your intellect may be telling you that you are stupid. So it's not the easiest thing to do at times, but if you learn to choose from your heart or spirit and not your intellect and you get accustomed to it like anything else and then it's easier to go to Faith and the word of God in tense situations rather than your intellect. Who operates from their intellect anymore? It wont work that way, scripture says so.

??? Scripture says quite the opposite, actually. See above.

Essentially, giving something to God and say I don't know what you are doing God, but I put it in your hands in trust and faith...
AT that point, isn't the ball in the Lord's court?

He never misses Brothers & Sisters.

Why exhort us as you have and assure us "He never misses," if we must just trust apart from reason? Aren't you reasoning with us in your post, offering a rationale for your view on walking by faith? It looks like it to me...

Isaiah 1:18 (NASB)
18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD...

Acts 17:16-17 (NASB)
16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.
17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.

Acts 18:4 (NASB)
4 And he (Paul) was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

1 Peter 3:15 (NASB)
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If faith was an exercise of the intellect then the most intelligent would be the most involved believers. I am in the top 1% of intelligence -- a member of Mensa (2%) and (Intertel 1%) -- and was an atheist for the first 34 years of my life. Additionally, universities would be filled with believers, which obviously is not the case.

I see no reason why there is a connection. Highly intelligent doesn’t mean humble or honest.

I believe that we are three-partite beings: body, mind, and spirit. Everyone has a living body and an active mind but the spirit is dead unless one believes. 1 Corinthians 2:13, "And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual."

Believe doesn’t occur outside the mind.

 

[Tenchi]

www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org
www.crossexamined.org
www.coldcasechristianity.com
www.discovery.org

 

[Edward]

Brother, this isn't the way any believer has to walk with God. Always in Scripture, God reasons with His people, offering them evidence and argument in support of His commands to them. He shows them He can be trusted and then He asks His people to step out beyond what they know into the extraordinary will of Him they love and trust.

I don't think you fully understood me.
He asks His people to step out beyond what they know into the extraordinary will of Him whom they trust. SO what does beyond what they know mean to you?

Trusting the Almighty Lord God is never childish. Trust is a very serious thing. It means, I dunno it's out of my hands.
Your carnal mind will not believe anything about God unless it sees a sign of something supernatural. So Moses did take a risk trusting God that when he threw down his staff, that it really would become a snake. Moses rightfully obeyed the Lord and trusted Him, but don't you think that Moses may have thought, what if it doesn't happen? So he was risking looking foolish in Pharohs court. But Moses trust paid off because when he threw downhis staff and it really did become a snake, I bet he felt real good about that! But then Pharohs magicians came over and did the same thing! I bet Moses thought what the heck do I do now! He couldn't do anything except stand there and trust God. And God delivered of course cuz that's who He is. So Moses snake staff ate the magicians snake staffs.

That wasnt foolish and it wasnt childish. Our mind will begin thinking in accord with our spirit over time and spiritual development ensues.

I hope you understand this better than my other post.

 

[Edward]

I know - I am convinced - I have entrusted. Paul's faith didn't rest on nothing; his faith wasn't blind or anti-intellect. Ours shouldn't be, either.

So what does lean not to your own understanding mean?

Trust does not come from the intellect. It comes from the heart. So the carnal mind demands proof. Havent you ever seen a miracle before? I have. I have many testimonies. Not the red sea level but pretty big for my life, lol. And the carnal mind gets to witness these also. SO on some level, the carnal mind has to believe it, but it is carnal so it will still lie at times to convince you that it wasn't really a miracle. But if enough miracles happen and one rejects the doubt from the carnal mind, the carnal mind will begin to think in the same accord as your spirit. They must agree eventually.

 

[Tenchi]

So what does lean not to your own understanding mean?

It doesn't mean: Forsake your understanding. How does one even take in the command not to lean on their own understanding if not by understanding what is being said, understanding the divine origin of the command and understanding that it ought, therefore, to be obeyed?

We are not to rest entirely upon our limited, fallible human understanding of things, charting our own course through life, but in all our ways acknowledge God, remembering that He has a purpose for our creation under which we ought to order ourselves.

Trust does not come from the intellect.

Sure it does. I don't trust that my car will start when I turn the ignition key because my heart tells me it will. No, I have tested the relationship between my ignition key and my car starting hundreds of times and know that when I turn the ignition key, my car starts up. I have also some knowledge of how my car functions and this informs my belief that, when I use the ignition key properly, my car's engine will begin to run. All of my trust in the effect of my ignition key on my vehicle is fact-based, and the consequence of personal, informal, empirical trial-and-error.

So the carnal mind demands proof.

Why does it have such a demand? Because God has so ordained that it should. It is from God that the laws of logic and principles of reason emanate. And God constantly in His word appeals to our capacity to reason things out, to understand cause and effect, to anticipate future consequences of present actions and organize ourselves accordingly, to delineate truth from falsehood, and so on. Why would He do so if the rationality of our minds is entirely suspect and perhaps even a hindrance to genuine spiritual living?

Havent you ever seen a miracle before? I have. I have many testimonies. Not the red sea level but pretty big for my life, lol. And the carnal mind gets to witness these also. SO on some level, the carnal mind has to believe it, but it is carnal so it will still lie at times to convince you that it wasn't really a miracle.

We all possess a natural and necessary skepticism about things that are not common to our experience, that defy what is usual. There is nothing wrong with such skepticism, if it doesn't compel us to deny the truth. A healthy skepticism keeps us from being foolishly credulous; it is that faculty of reason necessary to discerning the false teacher, and snake-oil salesman, that prompts us to investigate well before coming to a conclusion. We act wisely in bringing such skepticism to bear on spiritual truth, too, as the "noble Bereans" did.

Trusting the Almighty Lord God is never childish.

I agree. But I never said trusting God was childish.

So Moses did take a risk trusting God that when he threw down his staff, that it really would become a snake. Moses rightfully obeyed the Lord and trusted Him, but don't you think that Moses may have thought, what if it doesn't happen?

He might have. But he had good reason, given to him by God, to think his staff would do as it had done before. Moses didn't have to "fly blind" in this regard.

But then Pharohs magicians came over and did the same thing! I bet Moses thought what the heck do I do now! He couldn't do anything except stand there and trust God.

Not true, brother. He had two other miraculous signs to which he could have resorted in such a case.

That wasnt foolish and it wasnt childish. Our mind will begin thinking in accord with our spirit over time and spiritual development ensues.

What you imagine Moses thought has nothing to do with my remarks. I don't have anything to say about your imaginings; they're just fictions of your mind. But this I can say: What you imagine is not a basis from which to make assertions about Christian living. Doing so is very dangerous, spiritually.

 

[Edward]

It doesn't mean: Forsake your understanding. How does one even take in the command not to lean on their own understanding if not by understanding what is being said, understanding the divine origin of the command and understanding that it ought, therefore, to be obeyed?

That's right, it also says with all thy getting get understanding. Nevertheless, how about an example?

Consider David & Goliath. Help me understand what intellectual reasoning did David use to make the decision to go out on the field and fight Goliath? No reasoning or logic could have predicted David to be the victor. It was spur of the moment decision made out of anger and faith. David heard them mocking the God of the Israelites and said, why isn't anyone doing something about this?!

I think He was offended at them and thought as the agressor in his heart. No amount of any of man's earthly logic would say this is a good idea. But the only understanding that David even used, (Lol), was that he should pick up 5 stones instead of 1. Because David knew that Goliath had 4 brothers.

David wasn't thinking right. He was a youth and to go against a 13 ft tall giant that is a trained military soldier is an insane prospect. But his faith and Passion for the Lord rose up in Him...you can't talk about my God like that!

So David a risk with faith and trust and the Lord just Loves that stuff! So the Lord delivered Him.

So I'm not saying to totally abandon your intellect. We still have to live here on earth for a season. But the idea of setting ones intellect aside to trust in the Lord God is exceptional faith and God always, always comes through for us. So as Christian Brothers it is good that we would get used to making decisions not all from the same place, namely, the intellect. As a man thinks in His heart, so is he as man. So we must make some decisions from the heart.

Can you tell if your heart made a decision and sent the signal to your brain to act on it? People do that a lot. Perhaps without realizing that what happened came from the heart and not the understanding?

 

[Edward]

What would say if told you that God answered a Prayer of mine, except that I didn't pray for it?

My understanding (!!!) told me before I prayed that, God already knows all of our needs so don't worry about it is what scripture says. SO I concluded that I didn't have to pray for it. So I didn't.

But God answered the prayer that I was going to pray but did not. Not only that He answered it within 30 minutes and had it delivered to my house. Now my understanding was that, the reason that God answered this non-prayer and did it so fast was because I had without realizing it, was standing in faith in God's word instead of praying so He was all over that! Praise the Lord! Just as good as a prayer!

The Lord works in mysterious ways. And most times you are able to wrap your understanding around what is going on. But God will eventually put you into a situation where your intellectual understanding will have zero merit. This one is either all or none. Faith in God, or Faith in your own understanding. And if you make the right choice, then you stand back and watch God work.

I've been there a couple times.

 

[Edward]

What you imagine Moses thought has nothing to do with my remarks. I don't have anything to say about your imaginings; they're just fictions of your mind. But this I can say: What you imagine is not a basis from which to make assertions about Christian living. Doing so is very dangerous, spiritually.

So are you saying that we should not make any decisions from our heart?

 

[Edward]

Not true, brother. He had two other miraculous signs to which he could have resorted in such a case.

Did he? Maybe you're right. But Moses did not know that his staff would eat the other two staffs. Moses had to continue in his faith in God as he did not know what that outcome would be, not like it happened.