They knew !

[agua.]

Jesus told Nicodemus that he should know the concept of being born again.

Joh 3:7-10 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? (10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

The OT prophets had experiences with types of Christ but there isn't much mention of if they understood the concept.

Jesus went on to show Nicodemus a type of salvation/rebirth presented in the OT.

Joh 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The question is did the OT Prophets realise that the message and types they were presenting represented the coming Messiah ?

Luk 24:25-27 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: (26) Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? (27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

It seems to me that they did fully understand that Messiah would come to Earth, be sacrificed, and rise from the dead but it isn't clearly shown in the OT that they did. For instance Yahweh told Moses to make the brass serpent but no indication was given that it was a type of Christ at that time.

1Pe 1:9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I'd like to find every OT scripture that indicates that the subject fully understood the message of the coming Messiah.

 

[Sparkey]

They wanted to know and asked God (diligently) about the grace that would come to us. It sounds like you're asking if God revealed the purpose to them.

To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:12)​

 

[Sinthesis]

You can't blame them for not identifying Christ as the Messiah. With the 20/20 hindsight available through the Spirit it seems obvious to us, but that is not fair to them as the Spirit was not even given until Pentecost.

 

[reba]

God didn't send Jesus not knowing the outcome.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Jesus told Nicodemus that he should know the concept of being born again.

Joh 3:7-10 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? (10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

The OT prophets had experiences with types of Christ but there isn't much mention of if they understood the concept.

Jesus went on to show Nicodemus a type of salvation/rebirth presented in the OT.

Joh 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The question is did the OT Prophets realise that the message and types they were presenting represented the coming Messiah ?

Luk 24:25-27 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: (26) Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? (27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

It seems to me that they did fully understand that Messiah would come to Earth, be sacrificed, and rise from the dead but it isn't clearly shown in the OT that they did. For instance Yahweh told Moses to make the brass serpent but no indication was given that it was a type of Christ at that time.

1Pe 1:9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I'd like to find every OT scripture that indicates that the subject fully understood the message of the coming Messiah.

The problem is that the Jews at the time of Jesus contextualized the coming of the Messiah to their present circumstances. Remember that the Greek word "Christos," literally means the anointed one which is a reference back to the Kingship over Israel. The Messiah was expected by the Jews of the 1st Century to be a king that restores Israel and ends Roman Occupation. Jesus was certainly not the only candidate for this, as many movements around this time rose up.

For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. Acts 5:36-37 (ESV)

Here Gamaliel brings up two other Messiah movements, where the leaders perished and the movement died. Their death, and Jesus' death on the Cross was a stumbling block to the Jews.

Yet, Scripture teaches that it was the will of God that they reject the Christ, so that the gospel may go to the Gentiles.

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16 (ESV)

There is a veil over the hearts of the Jews who read the OT, yet did not turn to the Lord. The elect remnant of the Jews, the disciples and the first Jewish believers though who accepted Christ were used to fulfill God's mission of spreading the gospel to all peoples. Which if you read Romans 9-11 that is dealing with that issue specifically.

So I would say that there is a spiritual answer for the reason that the Jews didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, although it was not 100% the case, but when Peter recognized Jesus as the Messiah he was told that it was God who revealed such.

 

[handy]

The problem is that the Jews at the time of Jesus contextualized the coming of the Messiah to their present circumstances. Remember that the Greek word "Christos," literally means the anointed one which is a reference back to the Kingship over Israel. The Messiah was expected by the Jews of the 1st Century to be a king that restores Israel and ends Roman Occupation. Jesus was certainly not the only candidate for this, as many movements around this time rose up.

For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. Acts 5:36-37 (ESV)

Here Gamaliel brings up two other Messiah movements, where the leaders perished and the movement died. Their death, and Jesus' death on the Cross was a stumbling block to the Jews.

Yet, Scripture teaches that it was the will of God that they reject the Christ, so that the gospel may go to the Gentiles.

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16 (ESV)

There is a veil over the hearts of the Jews who read the OT, yet did not turn to the Lord. The elect remnant of the Jews, the disciples and the first Jewish believers though who accepted Christ were used to fulfill God's mission of spreading the gospel to all peoples. Which if you read Romans 9-11 that is dealing with that issue specifically.

So I would say that there is a spiritual answer for the reason that the Jews didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, although it was not 100% the case, but when Peter recognized Jesus as the Messiah he was told that it was God who revealed such.

I agree with much of what you are saying here, Doulos Iesou. I will also go on to say that Christians, even though we have the Spirit, are just as apt to fall into the same trap of contextualizing the Messiah's second coming. I rarely get involved in eschatology discussions for this very reason. Too many are too apt to take on a pet interpretation of various prophecies and argue the minutia of the 70 weeks and "pre" vs. "post"...that they are in danger of missing the significance of seemingly unrelated/unimportant texts the Bible contains.

While God's people of the OT did not have the indwelling of the Spirit that the Church now experiences, they did have the Law and the Prophets...which were inspired by the Spirit. We now have the Bible in addition to the Spirit...and yet, look at how much we misunderstand or misinterpret God's word to us. The same applied to the OT scholars, teachers and masters. It's not because God's word is lacking... it's because we as humans are far to apt to apply our own knowledge and understanding to pet texts and ignore all that seems irrelevant (especially if it doesn't fit in with the pet theory.)

 

[Deborah13]

Isaiah is full of these prophecies, including bringing the gentile nations into the commonwealth of Israel.

But as Synthesis and Doulos have said, they are waiting for Messiah the King. Then they, believing Orthodox Jews, they will rule this world with the Messiah as their king. They will bring back all the OT laws, 613 of them, including animal blood atonement for sin. Then all nations will be made to worship God.
Christians will have no place in this as we are considered heretics. Idol worshipers.

Frankly, I can see why they believe the way they do. They do not acknowledge the NT as truth. So they only see the OT in it's partial light. I believe we should be lifting them up in prayer all the time.
Without them the body of Christ is not complete. Many have come to the knowledge of Jesus as Messiah but I don't believe the Lord is done, far from it.

 

[Deborah13]

I agree with much of what you are saying here, Doulos Iesou. I will also go on to say that Christians, even though we have the Spirit, are just as apt to fall into the same trap of contextualizing the Messiah's second coming. I rarely get involved in eschatology discussions for this very reason. Too many are too apt to take on a pet interpretation of various prophecies and argue the minutia of the 70 weeks and "pre" vs. "post"...that they are in danger of missing the significance of seemingly unrelated/unimportant texts the Bible contains.

While God's people of the OT did not have the indwelling of the Spirit that the Church now experiences, they did have the Law and the Prophets...which were inspired by the Spirit. We now have the Bible in addition to the Spirit...and yet, look at how much we misunderstand or misinterpret God's word to us. The same applied to the OT scholars, teachers and masters. It's not because God's word is lacking... it's because we as humans are far to apt to apply our own knowledge and understanding to pet texts and ignore all that seems irrelevant (especially if it doesn't fit in with the pet theory.)

I'm guilty of this. But I can say AMEN to the wisdom of this statement.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I agree with much of what you are saying here, Doulos Iesou. I will also go on to say that Christians, even though we have the Spirit, are just as apt to fall into the same trap of contextualizing the Messiah's second coming. I rarely get involved in eschatology discussions for this very reason. Too many are too apt to take on a pet interpretation of various prophecies and argue the minutia of the 70 weeks and "pre" vs. "post"...that they are in danger of missing the significance of seemingly unrelated/unimportant texts the Bible contains.

Yes I think Jesus was quite clear about having an attitude of readiness, but being careful so that we are not so certain about specifics. Apocalyptic language is especially difficult for us in the West to interpret, and I don't think praying to the Spirit for guidance is the magical pill for the correct interpretation.

Hence, I am cautiously agnostic regarding the coming of our Lord, I believe he is coming, but I wouldn't dare go into too much certainty regarding most issues concerning eschatology.

While God's people of the OT did not have the indwelling of the Spirit that the Church now experiences, they did have the Law and the Prophets...which were inspired by the Spirit. We now have the Bible in addition to the Spirit...and yet, look at how much we misunderstand or misinterpret God's word to us. The same applied to the OT scholars, teachers and masters. It's not because God's word is lacking... it's because we as humans are far to apt to apply our own knowledge and understanding to pet texts and ignore all that seems irrelevant (especially if it doesn't fit in with the pet theory.)

Indeed, but I would say that all of us Christians are able to quickly spot Christ in the Old Testament now.

 

[handy]

Indeed, but I would say that all of us Christians are able to quickly spot Christ in the Old Testament now.

20/20 hindsight ...especially if one has the Spirit... is always so clear. :wink

 

[agua.]

They wanted to know and asked God (diligently) about the grace that would come to us. It sounds like you're asking if God revealed the purpose to them.

To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:12)​

Yes Sparrow I'm curious if every OT Prophet understood the meaning of the types of Christ they often presented. 1 Peter 1 indicates that they did and I'm looking for instances in the OT where the subject showed understanding that what they presented and did was a type of Christ.

 

[agua.]

The problem is that the Jews at the time of Jesus contextualized the coming of the Messiah to their present circumstances. Remember that the Greek word "Christos," literally means the anointed one which is a reference back to the Kingship over Israel. The Messiah was expected by the Jews of the 1st Century to be a king that restores Israel and ends Roman Occupation. Jesus was certainly not the only candidate for this, as many movements around this time rose up.

For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. Acts 5:36-37 (ESV)

Here Gamaliel brings up two other Messiah movements, where the leaders perished and the movement died. Their death, and Jesus' death on the Cross was a stumbling block to the Jews.

Yet, Scripture teaches that it was the will of God that they reject the Christ, so that the gospel may go to the Gentiles.

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16 (ESV)

There is a veil over the hearts of the Jews who read the OT, yet did not turn to the Lord. The elect remnant of the Jews, the disciples and the first Jewish believers though who accepted Christ were used to fulfill God's mission of spreading the gospel to all peoples. Which if you read Romans 9-11 that is dealing with that issue specifically.

So I would say that there is a spiritual answer for the reason that the Jews didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, although it was not 100% the case, but when Peter recognized Jesus as the Messiah he was told that it was God who revealed such.

Gday Doulos Iesou,

I'm asking if the OT Prophets ( who were true believers ) understood what the types and indications of Jesus' Earthly mission that they presented meant. I'd like to find any scriptures that show this understanding in the OT eg. did Moses understand that the brass Serpent was a type of Christ or even maybe if it represented the future healing/redemption by Yahweh?

I'm only speaking about the Prophets/people who presented types and indications of the coming Messiah.

 

[jasonc]

read the Talmud where by the sages said the moshiac would come and do this or that. the sages said that moshiac would give out manna.and what did jesus say? I am the bread of life. and we have the tradition of communion where we eat that bread. the sages also said that the third temple would be a fleshly one. jesus said destroy this temple and yet three days will I raise it up. they knew. they also had the exact date of his coming. they knew. Daniel 9 is that prophecy.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes Sparrow I'm curious if every OT Prophet understood the meaning of the types of Christ they often presented. 1 Peter 1 indicates that they did and I'm looking for instances in the OT where the subject showed understanding that what they presented and did was a type of Christ.

Maybe, what do you think?

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

 

[agua.]

Isaiah is full of these prophecies, including bringing the gentile nations into the commonwealth of Israel.

But as Synthesis and Doulos have said, they are waiting for Messiah the King. Then they, believing Orthodox Jews, they will rule this world with the Messiah as their king. They will bring back all the OT laws, 613 of them, including animal blood atonement for sin. Then all nations will be made to worship God.
Christians will have no place in this as we are considered heretics. Idol worshipers.

Frankly, I can see why they believe the way they do. They do not acknowledge the NT as truth. So they only see the OT in it's partial light. I believe we should be lifting them up in prayer all the time.
Without them the body of Christ is not complete. Many have come to the knowledge of Jesus as Messiah but I don't believe the Lord is done, far from it.

Deb there's a little confusion here. I'm only talking about the OT Prophets who were true believers and were looking forward to the coming Messiah. eg. Abraham, Moses, David, Deborah etc. I'm not talking about the people who weren't true believers. We know all Jews weren't true believers even though they believed in Yahweh but they aren't the subject.

 

[handy]

Agua, reading through your OP and your question of whether or not the prophets in the OT understood that some of the signs they were presenting were types of Christ...

I'm wondering if you think that, in order for Jesus' words to Nicodemus to make sense, they must have? And you are searching for textual proof that they did?

Am I on the right track with your questioning? If so, I have some thoughts to share.

 

[jasonc]

Deb there's a little confusion here. I'm only talking about the OT Prophets who were true believers and were looking forward to the coming Messiah. eg. Abraham, Moses, David, Deborah etc. I'm not talking about the people who weren't true believers. We know all Jews weren't true believers even though they believed in Yahweh but they aren't the subject.

somebody had to teach the prophets. david know a lot about the torah. read psalms 119, then read moses. its far more then a king should know and one that isn't of levy. david knew a lot. he offered sacrifices to the lord. how could he do that? he burned them himself and built the altar.

 

[agua.]

read the Talmud where by the sages said the moshiac would come and do this or that. the sages said that moshiac would give out manna.and what did jesus say? I am the bread of life. and we have the tradition of communion where we eat that bread. the sages also said that the third temple would be a fleshly one. jesus said destroy this temple and yet three days will I raise it up. they knew. they also had the exact date of his coming. they knew. Daniel 9 is that prophecy.

Cool Jason ! Do you have any OT scriptures which indicate that the Prophet understood the message they were presenting. I think we can see in David that he fully understood that Messiah would come to Earth, die, and rise again to redeem him.

Psa 16:8-11 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. (9) Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. (10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (11) Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Psa 22:6-8 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. (7) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, (8) He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

 

[agua.]

Agua, reading through your OP and your question of whether or not the prophets in the OT understood that some of the signs they were presenting were types of Christ...

I'm wondering if you think that, in order for Jesus' words to Nicodemus to make sense, they must have? And you are searching for textual proof that they did?

Am I on the right track with your questioning? If so, I have some thoughts to share.

Hello Handy sort of yes. I'm only asking about the OT Prophets who presented the types though and indication that they understood the implications of what they presented. Ot scriptures would be good. Nicodemus didn't understand the types of Christ presented in the OT.

 

[agua.]

Maybe, what do you think?

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Yes Deb do you think this indicates Moses understood the mission of the coming Messiah and possibly that the brass serpent was a type of this ?